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KosherPickle
Hello, and welcome to my review of Runner Havens! I had resolved to get a review written since, well, I wanted to. A couple of things before I get started.

1. For those that remember reading my partial and chapter extensive review of Shadows of Europe, I don't plan on finishing it. I've changed my format for reviewing, and it would look really strange to have later chapters reviewed in a different style than previous chapters. I also don't plan on reviewing those later chapters in my old style. Way too much work.

2. My review doesn't look only at content. It also looks at typesetting, typos, writing style, and whatever else strikes my fancy.

3. I'm doing the entire review in one shot, so that I don't do one part first, then never get back to the rest of it.

With all of that out of the way, let's get to it!

For those that don't notice that sort of thing, Runner Havens is the first Shadowrun module to feature a new 'WK GAMES' graphic on the lower left cover. I like the graphic for the word 'GAMES'; not sold on 'WK'. The cover sports a lithe light-skinned female of otherwise unknown origin as well as a malicious looking troll standing on the roof of a brick building. The former has her handguns pointed toward the sky; the latter is littering the street below with ammunition from his massive gun. I think it goes without saying that if you ever get into a situation where you have to shoot above and below, you're not long for this world. Good luck, chummers!

Right before we hit the first chapter, the opposite page has a setup that readers of 2nd Edition books (especially the later ones) will find somewhat familiar. A short blurb about the book we're about to dive into, one-line descriptions of upcoming posts (read: Sourcebooks), and random news from around the globe. Hold onto your hats, kiddies. It's February of 2070, and we've got some catching up to do.

The Hong Kong chapter (and presumably all sourcebook chapters from hereon in) starts with a short fiction. The main character of this is Ma'fan and it's the "eighth night of the ninth month of the year of the Tiger," a.k.a., 8/9/2070. Wait a second...Anyway, Ma'fan breaks into the Ikon Tower (whatever that is) thanks to a distraction by some 9x9 members (whoever they are). Presumably, her goal is to get to a computer terminal to make comment after comment in the Hong Kong posting.

The first page has a timeline. We love us some timelines, don't we? Unfortunately, there's no accompanying demographic box to go with it. Very sad. I always liked knowing what percentage of the population was made up of trolls.

Jason Levine has solo writing credits for the Hong Kong section (he had co-author credits in portions of Shadows of Asia), and it shows. Levine doesn't vary his style much. The names of the characters change, but the way they give the information doesn't. Some passages hint of a sense of humor and attempt to make the material more interesting, but for the most part it doesn't happen. Hong Kong is a relative unknown in the Shadowrun Universe, with the best sources of information only recently released in Shadows of Asia (a paltry amount) and Survival of the Fittest (the Wuxing Skytower is described in this campaign). A lot of foreign words and names tend to blend together, and no great attempt is made to help them stand out.

The Hong Kong section also has an annoyance that is not related to Levine's writing ability. A new critter called the Ghost Dolphin is described in a small info box on page 51. Interesting critter. Very well fleshed out with regards to physical appearance, behavior, and possible magical powers. However, actual stats for the critter don't make it into the book. This doesn't make much sense to me, despite the fact that a new critter manual is slated for release. Critter information is not so lengthy that it can't be put in a book like this.

All that said, Hong Kong is a very viable place to run a campaign. It's not quite 'Seattle in Asia,' but the similarities are too abundant to be mistaken. Both are port cities, both have megacorporate interests, both have underworld elements, both are surrounded by foreign powers. A fairly strong anti-corporate presence has finally arisen in Hong Kong (probably the last city to acquire one) in the form of 9x9. (I call them "9 by 9.") Magic, and especially geomancy, is an important part of this free city. Hong Kong works for just about any campaign type, except possibly mercenary. And if you want to do that, stage your base there and truck north into the Canton Confederation or west to Macao. There's information and to spare to run a campaign solely in this city.

The Seattle section of the book begins with a first-person short fiction focusing on Rowena O'Malley. If the name doesn't ring a bell for you, her father was once Don of the Seattle Mafia before he was slain by the assassin group known as Chimera. A rival mafioso was responsible for the hit, and Rowena spent many years plotting revenge. That seed finally bears fruit, and Rowena ascends to the top.

Four different writers are given credit for this section; this is a good decision. All kinds of information about Seattle come from wildly different sources and are given different voices. A political update is given as a transcription of a blogcast; syndicate information is an uploaded file meant for Yakuza newbies. I haven't gone back and cross-referenced the information here with the New Seattle book, but I doubt there's anything really crazy, stupid, or offbase in this book.

The Hong Kong section was not error-free, but the mistakes were few and far between. Seattle, on the other hand, has some very striking typos and typesetting issues (a big one in the Mafia portion). Oddly enough, the Red Hot Nukes don't rate a mention in the list of gangs, but are mentioned in a posting in the Seattle file. I just find that strange. Another oddity: on page 75, mention is made of the University of Seattle. I know and you know that no such place exists, right? Well, page 104 mentions "University of Seattle (formerly Washington)". Whew, glad we got that cleared up. Wait. What happened to Seattle University? I'm going to assume that they consolidated under the same name (because of the great shamanic studies and augmented reality engineering programs) and the writing got a little lazy.

We already know that Seattle is a viable place to run a campaign. I need not say more.

"Cities on the Edge" is a tetralogy of other possible locales where you can shoot people and steal things: Cape Town, Azania; Caracas, Venezuela (such as it is); Hamburg, Allied German States; and the Commonwealth of Constantinople (but everyone calls it Istanbul). There's not a whole lot to say about these places since there isn't much said. There is definitely enough information to formulate a few runs in and out of any of these places. If you like the area and want to stay longer, you're going to have get creative about the geography and demography.

"Game Information" has some nice 'keep this in mind' sections, but there's no charts and tables like we're used to seeing. For those who remember the tracked adventures Blood in the Boardroom and Mob War!, you'll be well familiar with the way the adventure ideas are laid out: a couple of fairly fleshed out ones followed by short paragraph ideas for other runs. Only Hong Kong and Seattle get this treatment; even giving short paragraph ideas for the "Cities on the Edge" would have been a nice touch.

Runner Havens is the first sourcebook (On The Run was an adventure) for 4th Edition. In my opinion, it definitely comes across as a first sourcebook. Despite the fact that there are writers, editors, and other personnel from previous Shadowrun material, lazy writing and editing make themselves fairly evident in the book. I appreciate that the index was provided for free on the website, but it should have made it into the book somehow. There are certain things I would have really liked to have seen in this book that just couldn't find a place. Not all is bad news, however. I think this book is a good companion piece to 3rd Edition books such as Target: Wastelands, Target: Awakened Lands, and the State of the Art books. It does not work well for a group that is new to Shadowrun and will only look at 4th Edition material. If that is the case, I would suggest waiting on more 4th Edition books in order to utilize the strengths of this book properly. If, in spite of my warning, you do purchase it, stick to the Seattle section only.

6.5 out of 10.
KosherPickle
Mainly because I like to hear myself talk (or see myself type), I'm going to add a short addendum of things I realized I never got around to in the review.

1. Shadowrun is officially out of the pseudo curse word business. Don't expect to see words like "hoop", "drek", and "slitch" in the course of reading anymore. The f-bomb is dropped a few times in Runner Havens.

2. No mention of SURGE, at all. Kind of surprising. This was a big deal in-game nine years ago, but I guess things are easier to deal with nowadays.

3. Lots of mention of drugs, and where to score them. Apparently, WizKids is all about cram, jazz, and novacoke. This might be part of the larger concept of making Shadowrun more gritty. Life is hard, do drugs to escape.

4. Since it was too late to thrust Google into canon, is Horizon heavily based on them? It sure reads like it is. I look at the corporate culture and Google just springs to mind.
bclements
It's not the only culture that springs to my mind (from personal experience) smile.gif
Brahm
QUOTE (KosherPickle)
4. Since it was too late to thrust Google into canon, is Horizon heavily based on them? It sure reads like it is. I look at the corporate culture and Google just springs to mind.

Buzzwords Gone Wild is what springs to my mind.

http://www.buzzwhack.com/index.html
Grinder
Good and fair review, but I would like to know more about the chapter
"Cities on the Edge". Who wrote it, how is it written, how long is the entry of every single city?
Critias
How usefull would you say RH is to non-SR4 players? It doesn't sound like it's terribly rules intensive, so it should still be a handy read for those of us using SR3 rules but the SR4 timeline...right?
Rotbart van Dainig
QUOTE (KosherPickle)
No mention of SURGE, at all.  Kind of surprising.  This was a big deal in-game nine years ago, but I guess things are easier to deal with nowadays.

Why? After a quick visit to a bodyshop, you can look worse. wink.gif

QUOTE (Critias)
How usefull would you say RH is to non-SR4 players?  It doesn't sound like it's terribly rules intensive, so it should still be a handy read for those of us using SR3 rules but the SR4 timeline...right?

Not at all: Your books will spontaneously combust and your puppy will suffocate - both stalking you as living nightmares.
Critias
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Aug 3 2006, 06:06 AM)
QUOTE (Critias)
How usefull would you say RH is to non-SR4 players?  It doesn't sound like it's terribly rules intensive, so it should still be a handy read for those of us using SR3 rules but the SR4 timeline...right?

Not at all: Your books will spontaneously combust and your puppy will suffocate - both stalking you as living nightmares.

But...but...my puppy's really cute! See? I don't want Boudicca to die! Sorry, FanPro, I'm not buyin' this book. Thank Rotbart! wink.gif
Grinder
How cute! love.gif

biggrin.gif
Synner
QUOTE (Critias)
How usefull would you say RH is to non-SR4 players? It doesn't sound like it's terribly rules intensive, so it should still be a handy read for those of us using SR3 rules but the SR4 timeline...right?

FanPro is going for a stricter separation of setting material and rules in SR4 books - meaning that books like Runner Havens will be strictly fluff.
Critias
QUOTE (Synner)
QUOTE (Critias @ Aug 3 2006, 10:57 AM)
How usefull would you say RH is to non-SR4 players?  It doesn't sound like it's terribly rules intensive, so it should still be a handy read for those of us using SR3 rules but the SR4 timeline...right?

FanPro is going for a stricter separation of setting material and rules in SR4 books - meaning that books like Runner Havens will be strictly fluff.

Thanks.

Ah well. Maybe I'll end up swingin' by the booth at Gencon, after all.
SL James
He'll be the one covered in blood waving an AK-47.
Oracle
Shhh! Homeland security is watching!!
Critias
QUOTE (SL James)
He'll be the one covered in blood waving an AK-47.

Didn't get the cash for that, remember? Just an SKS. Plus my case of Russian milsurp ammo's still somewhere in the mail. frown.gif

Err...I mean..."Nothing."
SL James
QUOTE (Oracle)
Shhh! Homeland security is watching!!

I'm sure DHS already has plans for keeping Gencon under surveillance. You know, for the amusement factor.
emo samurai
PUPPY!!! PUPPY!!! PUPPY!!!!!
KosherPickle
QUOTE (Grinder)
Good and fair review, but I would like to know more about the chapter
"Cities on the Edge". Who wrote it, how is it written, how long is the entry of every single city?

The tag-team of Lars Blumenstein and Peter Taylor get the writing credits for "Cities on the Edge". Each has a writing credit in Shadows of Asia and Dragons of the Sixth World, so they're not new to this.

Each city has four to six sections of information. Each information section is about a physical location, an aspect of culture, or a brief history of the city.

After discounting art, expect an average of 2.5 pages of text per city.
KosherPickle
QUOTE (Critias)
How usefull would you say RH is to non-SR4 players? It doesn't sound like it's terribly rules intensive, so it should still be a handy read for those of us using SR3 rules but the SR4 timeline...right?

Definitely. SR3 has no shortage of rules. What the game needed was more background information on various locales. This provides that.
KosherPickle
QUOTE (Synner)
FanPro is going for a stricter separation of setting material and rules in SR4 books - meaning that books like Runner Havens will be strictly fluff.

While I get that it was a little over-the-top to have over 4.5 pages just devoted to Border Crossing and Matrix RTGs in Shadows of Asia, I'm not sure it justifies a complete shift to the opposite end of the spectrum where the new motto is "Death to those that put game mechanics in anything but a Rules Expansion."
Synner
QUOTE (KosherPickle)
QUOTE (Grinder @ Aug 3 2006, 06:54 AM)
Good and fair review, but I would like to know more about the chapter
"Cities on the Edge". Who wrote it, how is it written, how long is the entry of every single city?

The tag-team of Lars Blumenstein and Peter Taylor get the writing credits for "Cities on the Edge". Each has a writing credit in Shadows of Asia and Dragons of the Sixth World, so they're not new to this.

Yup, "Cities on the Edge" was written by Lars and myself, though we have several people to thank for their advice and contributions. Each of the four cities in the English version of Cities on the Edge gets about 2000 words and is meant to illustrate the very different atmospheres and intrigues Runner Havens can possess. Also almost all of them involve dynamic plot elements which will continue to be developed in future books.

QUOTE (Kosherpickle)
While I get that it was a little over-the-top to have over 4.5 pages just devoted to Border Crossing and Matrix RTGs in Shadows of Asia, I'm not sure it justifies a complete shift to the opposite end of the spectrum where the new motto is "Death to those that put game mechanics in anything but a Rules Expansion."

The issue is not so much keeping the material separate, but keeping the rules easy to reference and locate, rather than sprawling rules across say 7 books (ie. the number of books that had adept powers in SR3). If we ever do a SOTA-style book or something focused on a specific field like Fields of Fire, I'm sure those will carry rules too.
booklord
QUOTE (Synner)
QUOTE (Kosherpickle)
While I get that it was a little over-the-top to have over 4.5 pages just devoted to Border Crossing and Matrix RTGs in Shadows of Asia, I'm not sure it justifies a complete shift to the opposite end of the spectrum where the new motto is "Death to those that put game mechanics in anything but a Rules Expansion."

The issue is not so much keeping the material separate, but keeping the rules easy to reference and locate, rather than sprawling rules across say 7 books (ie. the number of books that had adept powers in SR3). If we ever do a SOTA-style book or something focused on a specific field like Fields of Fire, I'm sure those will carry rules too.

Is a little redundancy a bad thing? For example, I've heard (the distributor ran out and the book hasn't arrived at the local gaming store) the new book contains a reference to "Ghost Dolphins". Why not put the stats for the ghost dolphin in both the fluff book and the upcoming critter book. ( Which I suspect is so far down the list, Runners Havens may be out of print before it hits the shelves )
KosherPickle
QUOTE (Synner)
Yup, "Cities on the Edge" was written by Lars and myself, though we have several people to thank for their advice and contributions. Each of the four cities in the English version of Cities on the Edge gets about 2000 words and is meant to illustrate the very different atmospheres and intrigues Runner Havens can possess. Also almost all of them involve dynamic plot elements which will continue to be developed in future books.


I'm so horrible at putting names to forum nicknames. If I had realized that you were Peter Taylor, I probably would have said "Lars Blumenstein and the person responsible for Shadows of Europe."

QUOTE
The issue is not so much keeping the material separate, but keeping the rules easy to reference and locate, rather than sprawling rules across say 7 books (ie. the number of books that had adept powers in SR3). If we ever do a SOTA-style book or something focused on a specific field like Fields of Fire, I'm sure those will carry rules too.


Okay. I'm just concerned that something mentioned in one book will get overlooked and not ever get mentioned again in any other book.
Brahm
QUOTE (booklord @ Aug 3 2006, 09:51 AM)
Is a little redundancy a bad thing?

I say yes! Duplicate write-ups for powers, spells, skills, critters, equipment, etc. is confusing and eats up space I'd rather see used for fluffy fluff.

It never seems to work out to quite copy paste, so you get a few differences. Also it makes locating the rules a lot tougher during play, because if what you are looking for happens to be something that isn't duplicated you know have a few places to check for it. Worse is the possibility that it is duplicated, which means you might end up checking for duplicates even when there are now. Which is worse that just finding something. I've seen this in D&D, and the few rare duplicates there are seem to be an inordinate source of hassle.
Synner
QUOTE (KosherPickle)
I'm so horrible at putting names to forum nicknames. If I had realized that you were Peter Taylor, I probably would have said "Lars Blumenstein and the person responsible for Shadows of Europe."

I'm wondering if you're saying that in a good way or a bad way.
KosherPickle
QUOTE (Synner)
QUOTE (KosherPickle @ Aug 3 2006, 03:11 PM)
I'm so horrible at putting names to forum nicknames.  If I had realized that you were Peter Taylor, I probably would have said "Lars Blumenstein and the person responsible for Shadows of Europe."

I'm wondering if you're saying that in a good way or a bad way.

Go back and read my multi-part review of Shadows of Europe and tell me what you think. biggrin.gif biggrin.gif biggrin.gif
phasmaphobic
"Anyway, Ma'fan breaks into the Ikon Tower (whatever that is) thanks to a distraction by some 9x9 members (whoever they are). Presumably, her goal is to get to a computer terminal to make comment after comment in the Hong Kong posting."


Hahahah, comedy!
Grinder
Finished reading the Hong Kong chapter today. The chapter reads good adn gave a me a fairly good impression of the city, especially the entry about the Bureau of Heaven and Earth was interesting wink.gif

I don't like most of the artwork in that chapter - it's too generic and too less SR-style, the only exception the cool pic done by Klaus Scherwinksi (sp?).

7,5 out of 10 points overall for this chapter. smile.gif
lorechaser
I am saddened by the loss of Slitch and Drek. Hoop I can do without....

But really, is it Shadowrun if you can't shout "Hoi, Chummer! We're in deep drek now! Gank that slitch!"?

Critias
Yes.
2bit
QUOTE (lorechaser)
But really, is it Shadowrun if you can't shout "Hoi, Chummer!  We're in deep drek now!  Geek that slitch!"?

Corrected that for you!
Grinder
We never used "slitch", but "Drek" is (was?) so stylish biggrin.gif
SL James
I can imagine.
Cabral
My wife was commenting the other day about what a slick word "slitch" is. We feel your pain lorechaser wink.gif
Bira
I don't quite get the complaints about lack of stats for the Ghost Dolphin. No character will ever meet one unless they spend a lot of time at sea, and even then most of the ways they can be used don't require stats.
booklord
QUOTE (Bira)
I don't quite get the complaints about lack of stats for the Ghost Dolphin. No character will ever meet one unless they spend a lot of time at sea, and even then most of the ways they can be used don't require stats.

Anyone remember the Simpsons episode where the dolphins came out of the sea and kicked all the residents of Springfield into the ocean?

Anyway I could pull off an adventure like that without having dice thrown at me? No? Oh well, just a thought.
PBTHHHHT
I'm still thinking of that twisted NPC someone *koff*hyzmarca*koff* wrote in the forums about the evil storm dolphin with mechanical limbs...
Cynic project
QUOTE (Bira)
I don't quite get the complaints about lack of stats for the Ghost Dolphin. No character will ever meet one unless they spend a lot of time at sea, and even then most of the ways they can be used don't require stats.

They have rules for people who are magically active who do not blieve in magic. I am willing ot bet, there are more encounter of Ghost Dolphin with shadowruns than are people whoare magiclly active that do not believe in magic who are "sane".
Bira
QUOTE (Cynic project)
They have rules for people who are magically active who do not blieve in magic. I am willing ot bet, there are more encounter of Ghost Dolphin with shadowruns than are people whoare magiclly active that do not believe in magic who are "sane".

But do you really need the stats for those encounters? I can't see why these critters would serve as anything but story elements.
KosherPickle
QUOTE (Bira)
QUOTE (Cynic project @ Aug 29 2006, 04:05 PM)
They have rules for people who are magically active who do not blieve in magic. I am willing ot bet, there are more encounter of Ghost Dolphin with shadowruns than are people whoare magiclly active that do not believe in magic who are "sane".

But do you really need the stats for those encounters? I can't see why these critters would serve as anything but story elements.

Because someone is going to want to shoot one. Therefore, it needs stats so we can be sure that it dies fairly.
Bira
QUOTE (KosherPickle)
Because someone is going to want to shoot one. Therefore, it needs stats so we can be sure that it dies fairly.

If the only reason you need stats is to ensure "fairness" when some armed and armored troll shoots a defenseless animal, what's stopping you from coming up with a Body rating by yourself?
JongWK
Bira! You live! wavey.gif
Dogsoup
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig)
QUOTE (KosherPickle)
No mention of SURGE, at all.  Kind of surprising.  This was a big deal in-game nine years ago, but I guess things are easier to deal with nowadays.

Why? After a quick visit to a bodyshop, you can look worse. wink.gif

Yeah, which is why I really, really hope the cyber book will spend at least a couple of pages on dealing with these kinds of "cosmetic" enhancements. Flavourware ftw.
SL James
QUOTE (KosherPickle @ Aug 1 2006, 10:57 PM)
What happened to Seattle University?  I'm going to assume that they consolidated under the same name (because of the great shamanic studies and augmented reality engineering programs) and the writing got a little lazy.

Yeah, I'm sure that the Jesuits are just going to hand over control of Seattle U to an incompetent government and their state school. Right.

It's most likely handled the same way it should be at UDC-College Park (what is currently the University of Maryland, but which was unlucky enough in SR to be in Prince George's County when FDC was created): People still call it UW (or Maryland for UDC-CP), because the name change is stupid.

I've been hesistant to really try and review this book, partly because it hurts my brain and partly because Cain's review on rpg.net is almost identical to my own views on the book. Hong Kong is good, although a bit redundant (which I think helps to overcome KP's complaint that Jay didn't distinguish some foreign words well enough), but overall is a fun and exciting setting. It is, quite frankly, the real core setting of Shadowrun.

Because the Seattle chapter blows.

I mean, really, how hard was it to make Seattle a vibrant setting? It's had two entire sourcebooks written about it, and has been the central focus of the game for 16 years. Every con Cain had about this chapter, I agree with 100%, so I really don't see the point of going into details he already covered. But I do have one huge problem with it.

The political stuff twists my underwear in a bind, not least of all because I've been working on campaigns for a while and so it bothers me to see people stumble around and poke at it half-heartedly, and coming off like dolts. It's not just limited to this book, since most of the coverage (like Super Tuesday) blows (partly because the author was Kenson. 'nuff said about that). But in RH? It's a like a bad joke being repeated by someone who forgot the punchline. The SIP party should be telling the UCAS to shove the economic recovery aid, and specifically the Military Recovery Act, up their collective asses, not bitching about not getting their share at the trough. But I can start with the beginning that, shock of shocks, the coup (attempted coup, whatever the fuck you care to call it) rates not a single mention. That's super, since it's not like the Vice President disappeared while on a campaign stop to Seattle that day (Oh, wait. She did). And it's not like the author of that wretched mental abortion was a contributor to the chapter (Oh, wait. He was). I mean, really, if there was anything that has annoyed me about the setting, it is how this huge event came and went without a second thought to anyone, anywhere. When would Seattle have been most tempted to cut and run from the UCAS with the corps' (specifically the UCC's) support? Surely not during an insurgency/counterinsurgency on the other side of a continent while they were effectively cut off from each other because of the Crash. Why is a supposedly-global city like Seattle even suffering a recession (actually, the way it's described is a depression, but who am I to pick nits?) if it's so important, anyway?

But I digress, and there are plenty of other people here who can tell you how much I fucking HATE that whole plot and how poorly it's been mishandled from the beginning. Ironic, especially since the entry in Threats 2 is the only thing Jon Szeto wrote that I ever liked.

I also thoroughly enjoyed the fact that the writeup of all of the districts in Seattle is about a page longer than the six pages about gangs in Seattle. And by thoroughly enjoyed, I mean I'm lucky this wasn't a hardcopy so I could rip the chapter out and set it on fire at that point for wasting my time and money.

The other cities? Meh. Three pages on average for a city isn't even worth it. Maybe the expanded Hamburg chapter in the German version was useful (or not, I'd have to ask Grinder), but without the existing context from the English-language books I have that already cover Hamburg and Istanbul I couldn't imagine using them without doing more work that is even worth it. And since SoLA will be published two weeks after Hell freezes over, Caracas is out, and Cape Town isn't even worth mentioning.
fistandantilus4.0
I mostly liked the book for the plot hook insertions into Seattle, updating afew things like the mob war, and updating things like Aztlan through the Caracass section. I also liked the Heaven and Earth section, and focusing on some different corps, like Evo in HK.

I thought the different styles, like the Yak intro, were neat. but mostly I jstu read through the Seattle section for metaplot updates. I think the Romwena/Bigio thign was overdue. Already happened in our game. A lto of thigns they updated already did , or something close. The gangs and such I mostly skimmed.
The one thing that I had a problem with was the Tir becoming a democracy. I like

Larry Zincan being in charge, but the borders opening, Princes going away, that just stinks to me. I liked having an elitist xenophobic militant 'country' in N.A. personally. Maknig it a democracy that's trying to get along with everyone know (seemingly at least) just makes it blend in to much with everything else IMO. WE had it be a coup, but without the goverental type chagne. New high Prince, some shuffling of princes, (Lugh ousted, Jenna Ni'Faria dead), and more draconic manipulation. More equalit and less massive taxes thanks to Larry Zincan and hestaby, but keeping the same general govermental/social structure. Suited our tastes more.
Ancient History
QUOTE (SL James)
Hong Kong is good, although a bit redundant (which I think helps to overcome KP's complaint that Jay didn't distinguish some foreign words well enough), but overall is a fun and exciting setting. It is, quite frankly, the real core setting of Shadowrun.

Damning with faint praise, but praise nonetheless. I'm pleased you at least derived some entertainment from it.
SL James
Jay's writing has entertained me for years for free. The fact that I paid $18 for the pleasure of reading his particular chapter and 90 pages of crap is not endearing to me.
Ancient History
I'll refrain from the obvious quote about public use, then.
KosherPickle
QUOTE (SL James)
QUOTE (KosherPickle @ Aug 1 2006, 10:57 PM)
What happened to Seattle University?  I'm going to assume that they consolidated under the same name (because of the great shamanic studies and augmented reality engineering programs) and the writing got a little lazy.

Yeah, I'm sure that the Jesuits are just going to hand over control of Seattle U to an incompetent government and their state school. Right.

Why do you imagine I said that the book suffers from lazy writing? In no previous sourcebook was it ever mentioned that UW had a shamanic studies program. With all respect to you, I'm going to believe my interpretation of university consolidation, since I can't bring myself to believe that the writers thought long and hard about the relationship between SU and the Greater Metroplex.
kzt
QUOTE (KosherPickle)

Why do you imagine I said that the book suffers from lazy writing?

All the books suffer from lazy writing. An example (of many):

The version of SLC in SoNA where nobody has guns? Salt Lake City has about the most liberal concealed carry laws in the courty. Utah is the only state where it sued the state university system because it prohibited carrying guns on campus, and won. The LDS is the only religion I know of where the leader had a personal gunfighter. The LDS milita is one of the few private armies to get in a fight with the US Army. It's not a region dominated by fluffy bunny huggers who would want to ban guns.
SL James
Actually, that's a holdover from NAN vol. 1. However, it does mention that there are several Special Response Teams that are armed to the teeth and exist for the explicit purpose of fucking your shit up.

But given the gross disconnect of it, I think that even beats Jon Szeto using the original The Hills Have Eyes as a source of historical basis for the Atomic Kiva in the PCC, which is just hilarious in how pathetic and stupid it is.
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