zeb.hillard
Aug 5 2006, 05:31 PM
Tailored Pheremones: The subject's body is altered to produce specially designed pheremones to subtly influence others.
Olfactory Booster: It enhances, identifies, and records smells. I assume if you can detect diseases using it, you can tell when someone is utilizing Tailored Pheremones since it states that it can set off alarms when it notices biological or chemical components used in warfare and ammunition. I would have no problem enhancing the trackers dicepool by the quarries level in Tailored Pheremones to simulate the signature 'smell.'
However, the Olfactory Booster also has a "cut-off" function that allows the user to completely ignore intense odors. Would the Tailored Pheremones be considered an "Intense Odor?"
I would say that the person using the Pheremones would be at -1D on tests for every two levels of his targets Olfactory Booster (Reducing the ability by shutting out some of the pheremones), but would anyone else make a different call?
For the curious, tis question stems from two of the three characters in the game I am going to run. The Face, who has the Pheremones...and the Urban Killer, who has the Olfactory Booster. I also noticed that the Fixer had the 'Pheremones as well, and was curious how their interactions would go.
Taki
Aug 5 2006, 06:14 PM
Interesting question.
another proposition :
Pheromones are vary subtle smells, they are hard to detect :
It would need an extended test (just for character with olfactory booster) intuition + perception, say threshold 5, 5 min.
Once the character has identified the pheromones, he can cut-off the whole smell sense and be completely immunized of their effects.
zeb.hillard
Aug 5 2006, 06:25 PM
I was thinking about using the rules for detecting Tailored Pheremones that's listed under "Scanners" that requires a Device Rating with a Threshold of 2, but replace it with a Intuition+Perception+Olfactory Booster Rating, with a Threshold of 5, giving a free hit for each rating of the Tailored Pheremones.
The question still is, though, could the Booster shut them out? And, since Bioware is grown for each person...would the person with the Olfactory Boosters be required to 'sniff out' each person with Tailored Pheremones before they could shut them out, or would just one recognition do the trick?
Taki
Aug 5 2006, 07:04 PM
What I am sure is : you need to analyse each person individually, as you underlined pheromone are grown "tailored" and specifically cultivated.
what do you think of : "Perception+Olfactory Booster Rating" instead ?
because Olfactory booster are not just a bonus, but are mandatory to make the test.
Taki
Aug 5 2006, 07:07 PM
Related question :
how works the adept power : improved sense ?
In SR3 it was kind of the same than cyber augmentation, using the biggest level for modification with a rating.
Do it works still the same in SR4 ???
zeb.hillard
Aug 5 2006, 07:14 PM
Intuition + Booster Level would be a possibility, as I don't think there are any tests in the game that require a straight Skill + Modifier roll. Though the Olfactory Booster says that it adds its rating to Perception tests (Which, if I'm recalling correctly, is always paired with Intuition).
The Enhanced Perception Adept, likewise, adds its power rating to all Perception tests. So, I would most likely allow the same kind of test against Tailored Pheremones for Adept characters that possessed it.
Taki
Aug 5 2006, 07:21 PM
My point was :
It could be not seen as a perception test (you can't do it without olfactory booster).
You imply that the improved sense : smell power is not even equal to olfactory booster level 1 (which add one die) ???
It seems very harsh ...
RunnerPaul
Aug 5 2006, 07:32 PM
Reading this thread, I can just picture the adverts:
Olfactory Booster: Turn it off before they turn you on.
zeb.hillard
Aug 5 2006, 07:36 PM
QUOTE (Taki @ Aug 5 2006, 02:21 PM) |
My point was : It could be not seen as a perception test (you can't do it without olfactory booster).
You imply that the improved sense : smell power is not even equal to olfactory booster level 1 (which add one die) ???
It seems very harsh ... |
You misunderstood.
I think that Perception+Olfactory Booster would be a bad choice, because there are no tests that are Skill+Modifier. I would allow it to be Intuition+Booster, or Intuition+Rating in Enhanced Sense.
As for Improved Senses, I would say that they could be tracked and noticed, but since it states that strong smells induce penalties on the power, that it could not be used in defense of Tailored Pheremones.
EDIT: I would actually go so far as to say that Adepts with enhanced senses would be more affected by Tailored Pheremones, since their powers are always active...hmm...perhaps always suffering the effects of a distracting odor (-2D) as is stated under Perception tests.
Rotbart van Dainig
Aug 5 2006, 07:41 PM
Olfactory Boosters act as Olfactory Scanners, too, using their rating as per p. 254:
Rating+Pheromone Table Modifiers
If they pick up the pheromones of a person, however, it allows the users to make a perception test to recognise the person, too - as Olfactory boosters allow the user to identify people based on scent:
Intuition+Perception(Smell)+Perception Table Modifiers
Jaid
Aug 5 2006, 09:10 PM
pheromones != smells nice, therefore i get bonus dice to social checks.
the pheromones don't work because your brain says "he smells like lemons... i'll give him an extra 5k

making you unable to smell it doesn't make it innefective any more than a flammable gas not having a scent would make it nonflammable.
think of it as being an inhalation toxin, IMO, and you'll get a better idea of what will work to stop it (and on that note, i would say that wearing a gas mask would certainly cancel out the bonus, and even a respirator would help... of course, wearing a gas mask or respirator to a highly formal business meeting probably isn't a good idea though

)
RunnerPaul
Aug 5 2006, 09:22 PM
QUOTE (Jaid) |
of course, wearing a gas mask or respirator to a highly formal business meeting probably isn't a good idea though |
Just be sure to hold outside meetings on days when the Smog Air Quality Index is in the Red Zone.
Rotbart van Dainig
Aug 5 2006, 09:30 PM
Just use Oxyrush - and stop breathing.
zeb.hillard
Aug 5 2006, 09:34 PM
QUOTE (Jaid) |
pheromones != smells nice, therefore i get bonus dice to social checks.
the pheromones don't work because your brain says "he smells like lemons... i'll give him an extra 5k 
making you unable to smell it doesn't make it innefective any more than a flammable gas not having a scent would make it nonflammable.
think of it as being an inhalation toxin, IMO, and you'll get a better idea of what will work to stop it (and on that note, i would say that wearing a gas mask would certainly cancel out the bonus, and even a respirator would help... of course, wearing a gas mask or respirator to a highly formal business meeting probably isn't a good idea though ) |
That's true...perhaps allowing the Olfactory Booster user to decrease the dice given by the person with Enhanced Pheremones?
Though, Lone Star walking around with Pheremone Scanners to find people with the felonious bio-enhancment would be a funny sight.
"Sir, would you care to explain why you are registering as a hot spec on my radar."
"Yeah...I had an accident a long time ago, um...and had to get...stuff...put...right..."
As another point, about an Adept with Kenesics who chooses to shut down or override his bodies response to the Pheremones? While it gives him additional dice, would it penalize the person with Enhanced Pheremones?
Taki
Aug 5 2006, 11:00 PM
QUOTE (Jaid) |
pheromones != smells nice, therefore i get bonus dice to social checks. the pheromones don't work because your brain says "he smells like lemons... i'll give him an extra 5k making you unable to smell it doesn't make it innefective any more than a flammable gas not having a scent would make it nonflammable. think of it as being an inhalation toxin, IMO, and you'll get a better idea of what will work to stop it (and on that note, i would say that wearing a gas mask would certainly cancel out the bonus, and even a respirator would help... of course, wearing a gas mask or respirator to a highly formal business meeting probably isn't a good idea though ) |
Pheromone are not necessary nice smells that's sure.
But you are are wrong : they are not at all like toxins.
They are detected (chemical receptor) by the nose, the signal is then integrated by the brain, which order part(s) of the body to react in a certain way.
So yes ! if you cut the signal going from the nose to the brain, pheromones won't have anymore effects.
Don't underestimate the power of the smell !!!
Taki
Aug 5 2006, 11:07 PM
QUOTE (zeb.hillard) |
QUOTE (Taki @ Aug 5 2006, 02:21 PM) | My point was : It could be not seen as a perception test (you can't do it without olfactory booster).
You imply that the improved sense : smell power is not even equal to olfactory booster level 1 (which add one die) ???
It seems very harsh ... |
You misunderstood. I think that Perception+Olfactory Booster would be a bad choice, because there are no tests that are Skill+Modifier. I would allow it to be Intuition+Booster, or Intuition+Rating in Enhanced Sense.
As for Improved Senses, I would say that they could be tracked and noticed, but since it states that strong smells induce penalties on the power, that it could not be used in defense of Tailored Pheremones.
EDIT: I would actually go so far as to say that Adepts with enhanced senses would be more affected by Tailored Pheremones, since their powers are always active...hmm...perhaps always suffering the effects of a distracting odor (-2D) as is stated under Perception tests.
|
I do not like intuition alone for a adept with improved smell (and without enhanced senses) actually.
For the rest I think you are right : you can't "cut" improved smell as the cyber enhancement thus it won't help against pheromone. It may help to detect them.
Uncough adept will surely go on speaking with their Johnson while putting on their gas mask !
booklord
Aug 5 2006, 11:31 PM
Do you react to phermones because of how they smell or the effect they have on you when they get into your lungs and from there your bloodstream?
I'd have gone with the latter myself but I really don't know the answer.
I think the more prevelant question is can the olfactory booster detect tailored phermones. ( I'd say almost certainly. Easier then detecting a normal person's scent )
And second what sort of penalty is incurred if a person knows they are being manipulated by phermones?
With the tailored phermones having become forbidden legality and the use of chem-sniffers ( mainly for explosives ) they're no longer quite as attractive as they used to be.
Taki
Aug 5 2006, 11:38 PM
What you call "smell" is a process of products reacting with chemicals receptors of the body - it is not necessary conscious.
You would probably notice the "deep" smell of someone without understanding how it affect your behaviour.
Pheromones are sent in very small quantities, which wouldn't be enough to product by themselves a effect. But they can be effective as a signal, the neural system being able to amplify most kind of signal, even very weak ones, to give an adequate response.
My brain order me to sleep
Rotbart van Dainig
Aug 5 2006, 11:40 PM
Which, long things short means: Pheromones are a kind of smell you don't notice you smell.
Taki
Aug 5 2006, 11:42 PM
Except with
Superior Nose tm of course
zeb.hillard
Aug 6 2006, 12:10 AM
QUOTE (booklord) |
I think the more prevelant question is can the olfactory booster detect tailored phermones. ( I'd say almost certainly. Easier then detecting a normal person's scent ) |
Indeed, you can. As the write-up says it follows the rules for 'Sniffers listed earlier in the book. And, of course, Pheremone 'Sniffers allow you to detect Tailored Pheremones with a Thershold 2 test.
Demon_Bob
Aug 6 2006, 02:35 AM
I can see several obvious reasons for wanting to turn off an Olfactory Booster.
So the designers should have made the device accordingly.
Unless you got the cyberware "at a discount", then there might be a few parts in need of repair.
If the player does not want his character's tailored Phermones to funtion all the time. Then, maybe, they only work for a few hours after he drinks some kind of easy to make or aquire elixir. The elixir fuels the implanted pheromone gland.
Guess you could also say that the specialized gland requires a small electronic charge to funtion. Flip the mental micro-switch and suddenly people like you more.

A critical glitch on some social roll using the tailored phermones could result in being chased by a horde of love-struck women.
Aaron
Aug 6 2006, 03:43 AM
There isn't a lot of conclusive peer-reviewed research on the effects of human pheromones on behavior. If you're up for some light reading, there's a
neuroendocrinology paper that is chock full of information.
One of the points of contention in the whole thing is whether the human vomeronasal organ is actually developed enough in humans to respond to pheromones. The answer seems to be yes. Here's a abstract from a paper on the subject.
QUOTE |
The vomeronasal organ (VNO) is a chemoreceptor organ enclosed in a cartilaginous capsule and separated from the main olfactory epithelium. ... The nature of stimulus access suggests that the VNO responds to nonvolatile cues, leading to activation of the hypothalamus by way of the accessory olfactory bulb and amygdala. The areas of hypothalamus innervated regulate reproductive, defensive, and ingestive behavior as well as neuroendocrine secretion. [Keverne, Eric B. "The Vomeronasal Organ" Science 286 (1999) p. 716]
|
So the VNO doesn't seem to be linked to the conscious sense of smell. The olifactory epithelium (the sense-of-smell bits) is wired to the olifactory cortex (the bit that distinguishes and catalogs scents). The VNO is wired to the amygdala (a thingy that stimulates memory) and the hypothalamus (the bit that regulates hormones, which in turn regulate behavior). There seem to be two paths, and so little or no connection between the two functions.
I agree with this, because I can smell pheromones. It's a lame super power, I know, but a highly sensitive sense of smell runs in my family (I have another stupid super power, too, but it's not germane). I can smell people's moods, where a woman is in her cycle, and whether a woman is interested in me. That being said, even though I can smell them and know what the scent means, my mood is still influenced by them.
Two disclaimers:- I am not a neurologist.
- Try not to think about my super power if you ever meet me in person.
The question becomes this: does the olifactory booster replace the VNO (which sits in the bone at the back of the nose, the one you can see in skulls) as well as the olifactory epithelium (which lines the inside of the nose)? Standard biomedical practice advocates the minimum intrusion possible, and so would leave the VNO alone, so that's my vote. I'd allow an olifactory booster a shot at detecting the use of tailored pheromones, though.
Taki
Aug 6 2006, 07:48 AM
QUOTE (Aaron) |
does the olifactory booster replace the VNO (which sits in the bone at the back of the nose, the one you can see in skulls) as well as the olifactory epithelium (which lines the inside of the nose)? Standard biomedical practice advocates the minimum intrusion possible, and so would leave the VNO alone, so that's my vote. I'd allow an olifactory booster a shot at detecting the use of tailored pheromones, though. |
Interesting link.
You don't need to replace all the receptor for the nose and sinus to replace them by the olfactory booster anyway.
You just need to link the cyberware to both the cranial nerve for smell - and make the other connection with your commlink. The VNO is "part of the olfactory system(s)" from what is said in the article.
I like that part :
QUOTE (same article) |
The ‘affective primacy hypothesis’ [5] asserts that positive and negative affective reactions can be evoked with minimal stimulus input and virtually no cognitive processing. Olfactory signals seem to induce emotional reactions whether or not a chemical stimulus is consciously perceived. We theorize that the importance of human non-verbal signals is based upon information processing, which occurs in the limbic system, and without any cognitive (cortical) assessment. Affect thus does not require conscious interpretation of signal content. Underlying this fact is that affect dominates social interaction and it is the major currency in social interactions Affective reactions can occur without extensive per-ceptual and cognitive encoding.
|
Aaron
Aug 6 2006, 08:30 AM
QUOTE (Taki) |
You don't need to replace all the receptor for the nose and sinus to replace them by the olfactory booster anyway. You just need to link the cyberware to both the cranial nerve for smell - and make the other connection with your commlink. The VNO is "part of the olfactory system(s)" from what is said in the article. |
Agreed, but the VNO is part of the olifactory system only because it's, well, olifactory. It's not wired up to the conscious part of the system (that's from the other article, the one that was written later). If you plug the olifactory booster into the olifactory nerve, then the booster isn't connected to the VNO's signals.
Rotbart van Dainig
Aug 6 2006, 11:15 AM
Which doesn't really matter, since Olfactory Scanners can pick up pheromones themselves (or explosives, gases, ect. for that matter).
That subsequently allows the user a Perception Test on the ones picked up.
PS: Looks like your familiy is wired differently, Aaron.
knasser
Aug 6 2006, 04:43 PM
QUOTE (Aaron) |
There isn't a lot of conclusive peer-reviewed research on the effects of human pheromones on behavior. If you're up for some light reading, there's a neuroendocrinology paper that is chock full of information. |
Heh. I wonder if the University of Vienna ever checks their logs.
"Hey Karl, we just got two hundred downloads of your paper on Integrating Neuroendocinology from all across Western Europe and N. America."
"Sounds like role-players again, I guess."
What's german for WTF?
Rotbart van Dainig
Aug 6 2006, 04:50 PM
QUOTE (knasser) |
What's german for WTF? |
English ancronyms are nearly never translated in german.
Asheron
Aug 7 2006, 01:55 AM
Whats German for "what the F.."? We could make our own acronym. And before you say "no you can't", remember, this is english and we can make up our own rules.
And, Aaron you can consciencely(sp?) smell moods? Can you elaborate on what they might smell like (ie-it kinda smells like chicken). I would be very interested to hear about it. Admittedly the only human smell I pay nose to is women.
Aaron
Aug 7 2006, 02:25 AM
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig) |
PS: Looks like your familiy is wired differently, Aaron.
|
I hadn't thought about it that way; I just assumed my epithelium-side sense of smell was sensitive. Maybe I've got some near-end cross-talk in my face. =)
QUOTE (Asheron) |
And, Aaron you can consciencely(sp?) smell moods? Can you elaborate on what they might smell like (ie-it kinda smells like chicken). I would be very interested to hear about it.
|
I've never tried to describe it before. It's kinda like describing a color; you know what "green" is, but you can't really explain it. I suppose it's kinda germane to the topic, so I'll give it a go, despite the fact that I wonder if I'm not just serving as a freak show. =b
I'll start out by saying that there is a certain amount of difference between people. One woman's aroused scent, for example, is not exactly the same as another's. In fact, sometimes I can actually identify people by their scent. Still scents are similar. Arousal smells kind of like a light musk with a bit of baby powder mixed in, for women. Fear is similar, but less baby powder and more acidic. Depression doesn't smell like much, it's like a dampened normal scent. A woman who is on or about to get her period smells like the musk, only with a little more tanginess to it; sometimes the scent of feminine hygiene products covers it up a bit, so sometimes it's that and not the actual hormone/pheromone that clues me in.
The irony of this post is that I am completely stuffed up right now, and can't actually smell a thing. I love irony.
Asheron
Aug 7 2006, 02:50 AM
Yeah I get what you mean...Describing green to a blind dude would be pretty difficult. I get the muskiness part, because I have smelt women when they haven't showered for few days, and (I know it sounds gross) they can smell pretty good as long as they're not overly sweaty, but smelling when she's aroused would be pretty cool, esp. being aware of it.
As for irony, look at my sig. It's a bit from a song in World Police: Team America.
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