So, I'm wondering: Has anyone done a through scan of the books to find all the positive modifiers that occur *after* the dice pool would be split?
The only ones I know of are the weapon focus bonus, and the smart link bonus. Are there any others? I suspect that these are few and far between, but ....
Full Version: Help me help you abuse the system
According to the rules you can't use a Sm-link if you split your pool, to fire two weapons.
That's only if you're firing two weapons in one action - you split your pool and don't get smartlink.
If you're firing the same weapon twice in a single action, you take a -2 penalty to the second shot, and standard recoil, but it never mentions losing your smartlink.
If you're firing the same weapon twice in a single action, you take a -2 penalty to the second shot, and standard recoil, but it never mentions losing your smartlink.
Yeah, but that way you don't split your dicepool 
.
Edit: I take that back and wonder, how do you shoot the same weapon twice in a single action?
.Edit: I take that back and wonder, how do you shoot the same weapon twice in a single action?
| QUOTE (Butterblume) |
| Yeah, but that way you don't split your dicepool . Edit: I take that back and wonder, how do you shoot the same weapon twice in a single action? |
Wait seriously?
Looking over it, you're right, it never specifies splitting the pool.
So, what, I have iterative attacks at -2 per person?
For example, if a character engages two targets with burst fire, he receives a –2 modifier for the second target.
Vs S-A rules:
If an attacker firing a semi-automatic weapon engages two different targets in the same Action Phase, apply a –2 dice pool modifier when attacking the second target.
When attacking the second target.
So am I making one roll at -2, which applies to both? Or am I making one roll at full against target 1 and one a -2 against target 2?
A Semi-auto weapon can only fire twice per inititive pass. A burst fire weapon can only fire two bursts per inititive pass etc. You have a limit on the number of actions you can take in a round.
If you have an aries predator in each hand you can fire 4 times, twice for each weapon per inititive pass.
But that would be spliting the dice pool.
As for the -2 for mulitple targets.
Here's how it works
You have your semi-auto weapon, you fire twice at the same target the first has no penalty the second suffers recoil. (but lets ignore recoil for are next example)
If your first shot takes down your foe you'd have the second shot form semi-auto so you'd target someone else and thus take a -2 penalty.
You DON'T shoot the same weapon twice in a single action you shoot it twice in the same inititive pass. Firing a gun is at least a simple action. (full auto is complex)
You can take 2 simple actions per inititive pass. Or one complex. Plus one free action.
If you have a gun in each hand you can fire them both as one simple action. But that splits the dice pool
If you have an aries predator in each hand you can fire 4 times, twice for each weapon per inititive pass.
But that would be spliting the dice pool.
As for the -2 for mulitple targets.
Here's how it works
You have your semi-auto weapon, you fire twice at the same target the first has no penalty the second suffers recoil. (but lets ignore recoil for are next example)
If your first shot takes down your foe you'd have the second shot form semi-auto so you'd target someone else and thus take a -2 penalty.
You DON'T shoot the same weapon twice in a single action you shoot it twice in the same inititive pass. Firing a gun is at least a simple action. (full auto is complex)
You can take 2 simple actions per inititive pass. Or one complex. Plus one free action.
If you have a gun in each hand you can fire them both as one simple action. But that splits the dice pool
| QUOTE (lorechaser @ Nov 29 2006, 03:58 AM) |
| So, I'm wondering: Has anyone done a through scan of the books to find all the positive modifiers that occur *after* the dice pool would be split? The only ones I know of are the weapon focus bonus, and the smart link bonus. Are there any others? I suspect that these are few and far between, but .... |
Well, there's always Specialization.
Of course, if we are talking about non-weapon Skills, then there's more.
Sorcery for instance, could tack on Mentor boni, plus any Foci, along with Specialization.
Basically, anything that does not directly add to the Skill (like Reflex Recorders or an Adept's Improved Ability) would be added after the Pool is split.
I know that you get 2 shots per pass, but the rules seem to suggest that you can target multiple people on a single burst. Or maybe not. I need to read them when I'm not at work. 
Dividing your burst between multiple targets works only for full auto bursts. You can decide between two targets, one short burst and one long burst, or three targets, three short bursts.
Still, you don't split the pool, but have the -2 penalty for each additional target.
Still, you don't split the pool, but have the -2 penalty for each additional target.
| QUOTE |
| As for the -2 for mulitple targets. Here's how it works You have your semi-auto weapon, you fire twice at the same target the first has no penalty the second suffers recoil. (but lets ignore recoil for are next example) If your first shot takes down your foe you'd have the second shot form semi-auto so you'd target someone else and thus take a -2 penalty. |
If your first shot takes down your foe, you should hope you declared your target switch beforehand
. Declaration before resolution.
| QUOTE (Butterblume) |
| Dividing your burst between multiple targets works only for full auto bursts. You can decide between two targets, one short burst and one long burst, or three targets, three short bursts. Still, you don't split the pool, but have the -2 penalty for each additional target. |
I was talking about seperate bursts not a single burst. a Burst fire weapon can fire two short bursts per inititive pass.
| QUOTE (Fortune) | ||
Well, there's always Specialization. Of course, if we are talking about non-weapon Skills, then there's more. Sorcery for instance, could tack on Mentor boni, plus any Foci, along with Specialization. Shielding could have all of the above, plus Initiative Grade. Basically, anything that does not directly add to the Skill (like Reflex Recorders or an Adept's Improved Ability) would be added after the Pool is split. |
where do you get this?
The phrase "Split dice pool", to me, suggests that either the final dice pool is what is spilt, or that the only modifiers that apply after splitting are situational ones. If you can point me at where your reading is supported, I'd be grateful.
I'd say that take aim most certainly applies after splitting, but it runs contrary to the more shooting philosophy of two gunning.
Splitting your dice pool... DOUBLES some of your modifiers? The GM in me says, "lol, yeah right."
You're dual fisting, going to shoot both guns. You have agility 4 and pistols (semi-auto) 4(6). And let's just say you have a custom mentor spirit that gives you +2 dice to ranged combat tests, cuz your GM is a chump and let you make a broken mentor spirit.
CORRECT:
You have 4 agility + 4 skill + 2 bonus dice for spec + 2 bonus dice for mentor = 12 dice in your dice pool. Each shot gets half of the dice, or 6 dice.
INCORRECT:
You have 4 agility + 4 skill + 2 bonus dice for spec + 2 bonus dice for mentor = 12 dice in your dice pool. But you add your bonus dice after you split, so you take your 4 dice, then add your 4 bonus dice to each shot, giving you 8 dice per shot. Or, to put it another way, you have 12 dice to shoot with, but when you split your pool you have a total of 16. Maybe it works like this in an action movie, where two guns make you overall a better shot than just one. But not in Shadowrun. Not in my sandbox.
I'm positive I'm not the only one who sees how utterly insane it would be to let people double their bonus dice when splitting their dice pool. Splitting the dice pool is supposed to make it harder to succeed; by doubling up your bonuses you have more total dice and thus a BETTER chance of success. Which is unequivocally stupid. QED.
You're dual fisting, going to shoot both guns. You have agility 4 and pistols (semi-auto) 4(6). And let's just say you have a custom mentor spirit that gives you +2 dice to ranged combat tests, cuz your GM is a chump and let you make a broken mentor spirit.
CORRECT:
You have 4 agility + 4 skill + 2 bonus dice for spec + 2 bonus dice for mentor = 12 dice in your dice pool. Each shot gets half of the dice, or 6 dice.
INCORRECT:
You have 4 agility + 4 skill + 2 bonus dice for spec + 2 bonus dice for mentor = 12 dice in your dice pool. But you add your bonus dice after you split, so you take your 4 dice, then add your 4 bonus dice to each shot, giving you 8 dice per shot. Or, to put it another way, you have 12 dice to shoot with, but when you split your pool you have a total of 16. Maybe it works like this in an action movie, where two guns make you overall a better shot than just one. But not in Shadowrun. Not in my sandbox.
I'm positive I'm not the only one who sees how utterly insane it would be to let people double their bonus dice when splitting their dice pool. Splitting the dice pool is supposed to make it harder to succeed; by doubling up your bonuses you have more total dice and thus a BETTER chance of success. Which is unequivocally stupid. QED.
| QUOTE (SR4-pg141) |
| Characters can use two pistol- or SMG-class weapons, one in each hand, firing both with a single Simple Action. Doing so, however, requires that the character split his dice pool between the attacks. If two separate skills are being used (Pistols and Automatics), use the smallest dice pool. Split the pool before applying modifiers. |
By definition, anything that doesn't add directly to the Attribute or Skill is designated as a Pool Modifier.
Keep in mind that you are adding the negative modifiers to each part of the split Pool as well, so if you are looking at it as getting double the bonus, then you should also look at it as getting double the penalty.
I know that no one wants to hear this but it seems simpiler to just get rid of the split dice pool stuff.
If you want to have a character fire two pistols at the same time then let them take their two shots and just say that they actually go off at the same time as flavor.
If you want to have a character fire two pistols at the same time then let them take their two shots and just say that they actually go off at the same time as flavor.
| QUOTE (Garrowolf @ Nov 29 2006, 02:54 AM) |
| I know that no one wants to hear this but it seems simpiler to just get rid of the split dice pool stuff. |
But it's far from limited to two guns.
Two spells, dual matrix actions, burst firing on multiple targets, etc.
So we can't just toss the rule out - it's a fundamental part of SR.
| QUOTE |
CORRECT: You have 4 agility + 4 skill + 2 bonus dice for spec + 2 bonus dice for mentor = 12 dice in your dice pool. Each shot gets half of the dice, or 6 dice. INCORRECT: You have 4 agility + 4 skill + 2 bonus dice for spec + 2 bonus dice for mentor = 12 dice in your dice pool. But you add your bonus dice after you split, so you take your 4 dice, then add your 4 bonus dice to each shot, giving you 8 dice per shot. |
Why would it be that situational penalties are added on after, individually to each attack, but bonuses aren't? Is it the implication that the entirely of SR is setup against splitting dice pool?
Because using your example as a base, I would do this (I've increased the numbers to reflect a more skilled user, and to make it more obvious):
CORRECT: You have 6 agility + 6 skill + 2 bonus dice for spec + 2 bonus dice for mentor, -3 die for poor lighting -4 die for wounds = 9 dice in your dice pool. Each shot gets half of the dice, or 4 dice.
INCORRECT: You have 6 agility + 6 skill + 2 bonus dice for spec + 2 bonus dice for mentor -3 die for poor lighting -4 die for wounds = 9 dice in your dice pool. But you add your bonus dice after you split, so you take your 6 dice, then add your 4 bonus dice to each shot, then remove 7 from each, giving you 3 dice per shot.
As the negative penalties increase, you actually get *less* dice if you apply all modifiers after.
The way you're arguing, though, seems to be:
CORRECT: You have 6 agility + 6 skill + 2 bonus dice for spec + 2 bonus dice for mentor = 16 dice in your dice pool. Each shot gets half of the dice, or 8 dice. You then remove the penalty dice of 3 die for poor lighting -4 die for wounds giving you 1 dice per shot.
So you only get the *bonus* once, but you get the penalties to each.
| QUOTE |
Or, to put it another way, you have 12 dice to shoot with, but when you split your pool you have a total of 16. |
No, you don't. You're exaggerating the point to make it look worse than it is.
Rather than a single roll of 12 dice, you have two rolls of 8 dice *each*. Each roll of 8 dice is resisted. Each has the potential to succeed or fail independently. Sometimes that's a horrible idea to do, sometimes it works. It's flexible.
| QUOTE |
I'm positive I'm not the only one who sees how utterly insane it would be to let people double their bonus dice when splitting their dice pool. Splitting the dice pool is supposed to make it harder to succeed; by doubling up your bonuses you have more total dice and thus a BETTER chance of success. Which is unequivocally stupid. QED. |
But if SR is set up simply to make it harder to succeed when you split the pool, you'd never do it. If it's set up to make splitting the pool a difficult, but potentially rewarding *option* then it would make sense.
| QUOTE |
Maybe it works like this in an action movie, where two guns make you overall a better shot than just one. But not in Shadowrun. Not in my sandbox. |
No worries - you can make your sandbox as you wish. But we're talking RAW, and RAW, SR can run to action movie style easily.
And again, the idea isn't that two guns make you a better shot with either. It's that a person skilled in using two firearms well will sometimes do better trying to fire both at once, but sometimes needs to just focus on a single weapon.
In some situations it makes sense for modifiers to only apply to a single test after pool split.
Let's say, for example, that I have a specialization in heavy pistols and I am dual wielding with a heavy pistol in one hand and a holdout in the other. Let us say that I am firing one pistol at a character who has partial cover and another that is standing out in the open. Let us say that I'm firing at one character who is standing in shadows and another character who is standing under a lamp. Let us say that I'm firing at one character who is running and one character who is standing still.
It seems that certain modifiers should apply after the split because they may only apply to a single test and not both.
Let's say, for example, that I have a specialization in heavy pistols and I am dual wielding with a heavy pistol in one hand and a holdout in the other. Let us say that I am firing one pistol at a character who has partial cover and another that is standing out in the open. Let us say that I'm firing at one character who is standing in shadows and another character who is standing under a lamp. Let us say that I'm firing at one character who is running and one character who is standing still.
It seems that certain modifiers should apply after the split because they may only apply to a single test and not both.
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
| In some situations it makes sense for modifiers to only apply to a single test after pool split. Let's say, for example, that I have a specialization in heavy pistols and I am dual wielding with a heavy pistol in one hand and a holdout in the other. Let us say that I am firing one pistol at a character who has partial cover and another that is standing out in the open. Let us say that I'm firing at one character who is standing in shadows and another character who is standing under a lamp. Let us say that I'm firing at one character who is running and one character who is standing still. It seems that certain modifiers should apply after the split because they may only apply to a single test and not both. |
That is why the offical rule if split the dice pool before applying modifiers.
If you want to get the advantage in spliting dice pools go for melee weapons with reach. There a modifier and would be added after.
| QUOTE (ixombie) |
| Splitting the dice pool is supposed to make it harder to succeed; by doubling up your bonuses you have more total dice and thus a BETTER chance of success. |
without commenting on the before-or-after question, i'd like to point out that there are flaws in the argument you're using. someone who splits their 12 dice into two 8-dice attacks is not necessarily more likely to succeed, assuming he's firing both weapons at one target. any thresholds applied to the attacks will apply to both rolls; since each single 8-dice attack is generally going to generate fewer successes than the 12-dice attack, there's a greater chance that the 8-dice attacks will fail to overcome the threshold.
this extends to to dodge tests. since they're seperate attacks, a target who dodges gets to roll his full dodge against each, giving them a greater chance of completely avoiding the attacks.
there's also the die penalty problem. with the 12-dice attack, you can take 8 dice worth of penalties and still have a pretty good chance of getting at least one hit. the two 8-dice attacks, however, would have to be longshots.
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
| In some situations it makes sense for modifiers to only apply to a single test after pool split. Let's say, for example, that I have a specialization in heavy pistols and I am dual wielding with a heavy pistol in one hand and a holdout in the other. Let us say that I am firing one pistol at a character who has partial cover and another that is standing out in the open. Let us say that I'm firing at one character who is standing in shadows and another character who is standing under a lamp. Let us say that I'm firing at one character who is running and one character who is standing still. It seems that certain modifiers should apply after the split because they may only apply to a single test and not both. |
Exactly.
And while I know SR is vague in some places "Use this rule when it works and don't when it doesn't work" isn't a recurring theme. So I suspect that *all* modifiers apply after the pool.
Which was the reason I started this thread to find positive mods that apply after the pool was split, to let us twink out more! ; )
Yep, guess I was wrong. Serves me right for posting late at night before checking the rule book. If anyone is curious, it says you apply modifiers after splitting on page 141. If you other jerks hadn't been so lazy you could have quoted the actual rule and saved me the time of making a pointless argument against it
Now, I still like my idea for doing things, generally... It feels a lot neater to me to add up all the bonuses and penalties before you split. Of course, this forces us to create an exception for when each action has a different set of bonuses and penalties, like if you had a pistol in one hand and an SMG in the other... Though applying the modifiers after spliting makes the process more involved every time you do it, it sidesteps these kinds of complicated situations.
Now, I still like my idea for doing things, generally... It feels a lot neater to me to add up all the bonuses and penalties before you split. Of course, this forces us to create an exception for when each action has a different set of bonuses and penalties, like if you had a pistol in one hand and an SMG in the other... Though applying the modifiers after spliting makes the process more involved every time you do it, it sidesteps these kinds of complicated situations.
Specialization, home ground, mentor spirit bonus, take aim action, and Analyze Device spell, off the top of my head.
| QUOTE (hyzmarca) |
| Specialization, home ground, mentor spirit bonus, take aim action, and Analyze Device spell, off the top of my head. |
DUDE.
How did I miss Analyze Device?
Very nice.
Banish an enemy spirit on a power site, then bind it. Make sure it's at least force 3, and you get a force 9 spirit with 4 services with edge.
| QUOTE (ixombie @ Nov 30 2006, 09:03 AM) |
| If you other jerks hadn't been so lazy you could have quoted the actual rule and saved me the time of making a pointless argument against it |
Like maybe I did in the post directly following yours?
| QUOTE (Fortune) | ||
By definition, anything that doesn't add directly to the Attribute or Skill is designated as a Pool Modifier. Keep in mind that you are adding the negative modifiers to each part of the split Pool as well, so if you are looking at it as getting double the bonus, then you should also look at it as getting double the penalty. |
Normally we don't go around quoting text from the books left and right beforehand, assuming that most of us have access to the core rulebook. If and when actual text needs to be quoted, people usually ask, and then someone will respond either with a page number or the actual quoted text itself. I quoted the rule as soon as it was questioned!
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