From p.156:
Full Version: Surprise!
| QUOTE |
| Characters who are surprised cannot take any actions that directly affect, impede, or counteract characters that have surprised them. This means surprised characters cannot attack those who surprised them, nor can they dodge or defend against attacks from those opponents. The surprised character also cannot react to those characters' actions in anyway. |
Yet we don't hesitate, for example, to continue to allow BD + armour for a damage soak roll. This isn't a direct counteracting but a purely environmental one: the armour was not placed on in direct anticipation of this attack. Besides, this kind of combat has two clearly separable rolls: whether or not the attack hits, and how much damage it does. Common sense tells us that surprise would only directly affect the first (although the number of hits probably will indirectly affect the second).
Where it gets complicated is magic, and especially wrt such magic as only gives the target a single roll. Not giving Counterspelling is a given. However, how much of the remaining target resistance is automatic resistance of mind as opposed to braced resistance?
A few examples, all of which involve some degree of direct resistance by the target. How would you deal with the effects of surprise for NPCs who were hit by:
- manabolt (direct combat spell)
- flamethrower (indirect combat spell)
- probe mind (detection spell)
- hot potato (direct illusion spell)
- invisibility (indirect illusion spell)
- alter mind (control manipulation spell)?
There is no difference between a braced mind and a suprised mind for mundanes. Its one in the same. Even if you stood there in front of a guy and told him you were going to stunball his ass there ould be nothing he could do about it as far as defending against it.
A mage would get spell defense but like you said not when they are suprised.
You want suprised people to be like extra vulnerable to magic? All those mental manipulation spells would work the same as if you told the target you were going to do it. Its not like I dont see the mage who is trying to get me to shoot myself so the idea is easier to implant or resist.
I cant think of how a damaging type spell would do extra damage, they already dont get spell defense....
I think letting magic do anything extra because the target is suprised beyond stripping spell defense is really unnessecary because its already pretty powerful. Again I'd like to know more about what kind of chang your trying to make here...
A mage would get spell defense but like you said not when they are suprised.
You want suprised people to be like extra vulnerable to magic? All those mental manipulation spells would work the same as if you told the target you were going to do it. Its not like I dont see the mage who is trying to get me to shoot myself so the idea is easier to implant or resist.
I cant think of how a damaging type spell would do extra damage, they already dont get spell defense....
I think letting magic do anything extra because the target is suprised beyond stripping spell defense is really unnessecary because its already pretty powerful. Again I'd like to know more about what kind of chang your trying to make here...
Well personally I'm not so sure that counterspelling doesn't help defend against spells when surprised as long as the Mage has declared that she is "Actively Counterspelling" beforehand.
I've always read the blurb about counterspelling not being able to be used when surprised as only applying to normal "Passive Counterspelling".
I've always read the blurb about counterspelling not being able to be used when surprised as only applying to normal "Passive Counterspelling".
Yeah, I've never been able to personally reconcile the book's statements regarding the inability to counterspell in surprise and the ability to conterspell detection spells of which a caster is unaware.
Well it's my understanding that normal "passive counterspelling" doesn't affect spells which the Mage is unaware of either, it's just when the Mage is actively jamming the local Mana Field that he gets that perk.
Of course, the way I see things, if he's actively jamming the local Mana Field as RAW tells us then whether he is surprised or not really shouldn't matter either.
Of course, the way I see things, if he's actively jamming the local Mana Field as RAW tells us then whether he is surprised or not really shouldn't matter either.
I used several different types of example because each of those works in different ways, including what exactly they end up targeting. For example, is trying to see through an illusion active or passive?
The ones I'm most interested in are those spells or physad powers which only allow the target a single roll, period (especially where the roll doesn't involve magical skills at all): and then either it takes effect or doesn't take effect.
It might be clearest with the physad example: Commanding Voice is a straight opposed test which doesn't involve magic skills at all on either side, but does involve skills that are normally used "actively".
What would be the surprise effects in this case?
The ones I'm most interested in are those spells or physad powers which only allow the target a single roll, period (especially where the roll doesn't involve magical skills at all): and then either it takes effect or doesn't take effect.
It might be clearest with the physad example: Commanding Voice is a straight opposed test which doesn't involve magic skills at all on either side, but does involve skills that are normally used "actively".
What would be the surprise effects in this case?
| QUOTE (Abbandon) |
| There is no difference between a braced mind and a suprised mind for mundanes. Its one in the same. Even if you stood there in front of a guy and told him you were going to stunball his ass there ould be nothing he could do about it as far as defending against it. |
Is there a page reference that goes with that assertion, or did you forget to put the phrase, "In my opinion," at the beginning of your paragraph?
| QUOTE (Abbandon) |
| A mage would get spell defense but like you said not when they are suprised. |
Kindly turn to page 162 in your handy copy of Street Magic.
I dont have street magic. And yes it as in my opinion that there is no dif between braced or unbraced mind as far as mundanes based off common sense. A mundane doesnt get any extra dice for being braced or unbracd vs magic. They LACK the ability to do anything to affect mana.
...I'm with Abbandon on this. Magic against Mundanes is already bad enough, no need for the "Instant Kill" effect when it is almost there to start with.
Force 5 combat spell with 5 net hits = DV 10. Average body (human) = DP 3 - 4 equating to 1 hit for resistance. Target still takes 9 boxes damage whether they are "braced" or not.
Force 5 combat spell with 5 net hits = DV 10. Average body (human) = DP 3 - 4 equating to 1 hit for resistance. Target still takes 9 boxes damage whether they are "braced" or not.
Talia, I still need to buy SM (have funds, should have it this week), so I can't answer the Commanding Voice question with any authority. Without reading the description, my initial inclination is to say that mundanes lack any way to manipulate or actively counter magic, so any resistance roll they get to Commanding Voice is, like against spells, inherent to their characters and not any action on their part. Perhaps others could give their point of view.
| QUOTE |
| Kindly turn to page 162 in your handy copy of Street Magic. |
Missed that. Thank you, Aaron. Although there is a difference between "unaware" and "flat-footed surprise" (where you suddenly become all too aware but frozen in place, watching the disaster-to-be unfold without being able to do anything about it).
I can appreciate the game balance argument, however.
Let's refocus the discussion, then. Let's look solely at the few magic powers where Awakened and mundanes resist on exactly the same basis: no Counterspelling involved, ever -- which means no spells. This seems to limit it to critter powers and adept powers such as Commanding Voice.
Using that last as the example:
Adept rolls Leadership + CH.
Target rolls Leadership + WL to resist.
Does the use of an Active skill to resist count as "defend[ing] against attacks from those opponents"? Would a surprised target get full use of both skill and attribute to resist?
In the section for commanding voice does it say that the target defends or resists? That should determine if he can roll or not.
Sorry, Da9iel, I missed your intervening post (ninja'ed!), and odinson's reinforcement of the important difference between defend and resist. The relevant part of the power is this:
| QUOTE |
| The adept takes a Complex Action to give a simple but forceful command (five words or less) to the target, making an Opposed Test with Leadership + Charisma against the target(s)' Willpower + Leadership. If the adept succeeds in the test, the target uses his next action to either carry out the command or stands confused (gamemaster's choice, but the more net hits achieved the more likely he will obey the adept's command). Such commands carry no weight beyond the immediate impetus, and the affected characters will quickly reassert their wits, returning to their original course of action. |
Neither word is used, but Opposed Test is mentioned. What is your interpretation?
I'm kinda thinking it would be a resistance test. The only places I can find reference to defense rolls is in the combat sections for ranged, melee, cyber or astral combat. So I guess that any other situation would count as a resistance roll and not a defense roll.
After reading the description, I would still go with my initial inclination: any resistance roll they get to Commanding Voice is, like against spells, inherent to their characters and not any action on their part. The fact that they use an Active Skill in the opposed test does not, to me, necessarily imply that the opposition is a conscious action against a character who beat them in a surprise role. I might have thought differently in previous editions, but I see SR4 as starting to blur the line between attributes and skills to some extent. Previously I viewed Attributes as a person's inherent makeup and Skills as the things they could do, but now someone with high Attributes can do many things well. I see no contradiction with the thought that someone with a high Skill (in this case Leadership) has become someone who is inherently harder to Command. It was typically Skill resisted/opposed by Attribute in previous editions. Now it's both vs both.
One other thing about commanding voice that I'm not sure if people are over looking on purpose is I'm fairly sure it is IMPOSABLE to surprise someone with this power.
| QUOTE |
| Commanding voice may only be used on metahumans who can directly hear and understand the adept’s words. |
IMO "understanding" necessitates awareness / negates surprise.
I don't see how being surprised means it's impossible to hear and understand something. They might not be able to act upon the instructions they're getting (while they're all surprised and flat footed and stuff), but I don't see what about surprise makes you incapable of hearing and understanding spoken words.
In fact, the surprising nature of a surprise may be because you understand the importance of the event as well as the low probability thereof, but are unable to quickly accept/adapt to the fact that the event happened.
Jump around the corner when your S.O. isn't expecting it and order them to do something they normally wouldn't do, then ask them what you said. 
I'd rule that Commanding Voice can surprise someone, but that being surprised by it won't change the resistance roll any.
I'd rule that Commanding Voice can surprise someone, but that being surprised by it won't change the resistance roll any.
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