I am a little confused on what counts for immunity to normal weapons and what doesn't. Spells, of course, weapon foci, some adept powers. But do spirits count? I assume yes since they are pure mana. And if said adept still hit someone with immunity to normal weapons with their weapon foci, would they still get to roll their harden armor, or would it just bypass all of it, and just roll body to resist?

Spirits should bypass ItNW. In this context, I think "normal" means "not-magical", so spirits clearly get by. I'm not sure if "normal" is really ever exlicitly defined, but you can't just start flogging them with a platypus duct-taped to a fishing rod and say, "I say, that's hardly a normal thing to hit someone with,", I think it's clear they mean non-magical.

Or at least, it's clear until you start thinking about elemental attacks. Then the arguments start. And IIRC anything the creature has an allergy to is considered non-normal, isn't it? So that would be another non-magical way to bypass ItNW, so I guess it doesn't really mean magical weapons (which is why it's not Immunity to non-magical weapons) Then there's the argument about whether AP ammo helps. I don't think anybody blames you for being confused.

And yes, if ItNW is bypassed by a non-normal weapon, the armor is gone. No hardened effect. No downgrading from physical to stun. No extra dice. Just Body. (and possibly any conventional armor they may be wearing, or armor from other non-ItNW sources)

Moon-Hawk pretty much nailed it. Magic, weapon foci, killing hands, allergy substances, and elemental attacks all bypass it. Everything else doesn't.

hmm. if thats the case wouldn't it make more sense to call it something like "immunity to kinetic weapons"?

Metal is an elemental effect. It is primarily kinetic. So no.

Normal means not magical. Anything that's magical completely bypasses a spirit's immunity to normal weapons. Anything that isn't magical, whether it's elemental or not (i.e. a firebomb or a jar of acid) has its normal effect. Though nonmagical elemental damage is still good against spirits because it usually has an AP of -half.

That's still not quite right; see allergies. A non-magical allergen-weapon will bypass ItNW, IIRC.

That'll teach me to post from memory.

Yes, Immunity to Normal Weapons is everything that isn't magical or an allergen.

Thank you for clearing that up with me.

This is how I handle it. As I alluded to, there are people who feel that all elemental attacks (such as tasers) should bypass ItNW, but personally I feel that the -1.5AP that comes with most elemental attacks is sufficient, and I do want my Force 8 spirits to be able to shrug off a granny & her taser.

Actually, most people I've heard discuss it want tasers not to hurt spirits. As they stand, with -half AP, electrical weapons dominate spirits pretty roundly. A stick-n-shok shotgun or rifle can disperse even a high force spirit with a single well aimed shot. I think that's ok though -- who died and made spirits king of combat? It makes sense that they're not invincible, and that players should be able to take them out as long as they're smart enough to be prepared. I can't hold with GMs telling players "You were smart enough to win, so I'm making your tactics illegal." It just isn't the way the game is meant to be played.

I really can't see arguments for making mundane elemental attacks ignore ItNW. That would make spirits effectively the most fragile thing in the game, aside perhaps from microdrones

Stock up on Silver Bullets, Wooden Stakes, Wolvesbane, Insectiside, and... What else?

...

I'm going to need a lot more Insectiside, aren't I?

Why a rifle or shotgun? Stick and shock from any firearm still does the 6S(e) damage with AP -half. Since ItNW iss double magic in armor, that means that they can effectively hurt force 5 and lower spirits. Force 6 would have Hardened Armor 12, and halved down to 6, makes stick and shock get negated.

On the other hand, sound elemental attacks fairly easily trump any spirit quite soundly (no pun intended).

You mean, other than the fact that this is how it worked in all previous editions of Shadowrun, right?

Actually, force 6 spirits get hurt by stick & shock, too - you compare the DV calculated from the base DV + net hits vs. the armor modified by -AP. So the one net hit you need to hit is enough to damage a force 6 spirit.

Immunity To Normal Weapons is a rather deciving title, in a way.

Technically, they aren't *immune*. A character with a good FA weapon(or a good load of DV), and a good roll(maybe Edge), can still harm them, and i've seen it happen. Someone who'se got a hell of a high DV on a firearm can just blast right through em with some luck. it's just the spells, Weapon Foci and Killing Hands to it a hell of a lot easier.

I wish it were more called 'Resistance to Normal Weapons', IMO.

Do natural weapons, like an animal's claws, negate ItNW? I was under the impression that they did, but I don't know where I got that idea.

D'oh! You're right. You use APDS rifles and shotguns, or Stick-n-shok with less powerful guns




I have seen people argue that because it's called immunity, the rules should be changed to make the spirits actually immune. We were not amused

@Circuit: Nope. Now, if they're critters and they have the "natural melee weapon" power, it's less clear...

Automatic weapon damage modifiers are not supposed to be taken into account, though.

Dual-natured critters would affect spirits - so barghests, hell-hounds, etc. would be fine. The typical dog or cat, not so much.

What about those Hellhound-Poodle Crosses that I hear are popular with the Elderly set?

what about things like flame-throwers for example?
would they get to hurt spirits?
and would they NOT get to hurt Flame-spirits? o.O

Would they heal flame spirits?

Would they make flame spirits want to stay longer because this reminds them of home?

Will they think the person with the Flamethrower is actually hugging them, and give them a hug back?

...

I like that last one.

While silver and natural weapons are normal, I would allow them to work. After all, those are *special* natural weapons, in a mystical sort of way.
As for tasers and most of all flamethrowers, I'm still wondering.

Oh, I definately don't think they should be immune. I just think 'Resistance' might be a better title. I don't think i met anyone yet who wanted them fully immune. You actually met people who wanted that? Sheesh. That would suck, IMO.

And for the mention of FA; I had forgotten that doesn't add up. But someone with a high DV weapon(which an HMG and the like has, not to mention a good sniper rifle and the like), and a good DP can usually get the DV high enough.

Not to mention AV ammo-not sure if that does anything to that particular critter power, though.

Fire spirits do not have any form of immunity to fire, so per RAW, yes, flamethrowers will burn the heck out of them. Spirits only have the powers that they are given. So while a fire spirit can burn through stuff with its elemental aura, that doesn't mean you can kill it with a fire extinguisher, or water, nor does it mean that it needs oxygen to live. It has none of the properties of fire, in other words.

Try to think of it like this: all spirits are made out of the same spirit stuff. Fire spirits are made out of the same stuff as air spirits, which are made out of the same stuff as water spirits. They just look like they're made out of an element.

Incorrect. Fire elementals have a severe allergy to water. Water elementals have a severe allergy to fire. You spray a fire elemental with a water based fire extinguisher... it'll get hurt (rate of 1 box per minute or +4DV of a water based weapon). Hit a water elemental with a flamethrower, and it'll eat +4DV from the attack.

Not to mention that since it bypasses their ItNW then its straight body for them to resist with. (And a -4 DP to everything while they are exposed to it.)

IIRC one of the Devs (Synner?) has stated that SnS/Taser rounds do not affect creature/beings with out an nervous system ie spirits was used as an example.

Besides electrical shock from SnS and Tasers is not additive in the method of projected round delivery.

WMS

i don't think there are water-based fire extinguishers, unless by fire extinguisher you simply mean anything which can be used to extinguish fires rather than an actual fire extinguisher (in which case a bucket full of water would qualify as a fire extinguisher, i suppose).

I believe class A fire extinguishers (not b or c, but only a) are in fact, water sprayers...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_classes

don't believe that was ever said. i do recall someone saying it shouldn't realistically stun spirits, and possibly someone saying it wouldn't be a completely unreasonable houserule, but i don't remember anyone official actually saying they shouldn't do anything.

Mental Note: Never summon a Fire Elemental when outside in Seattle. With all the rain that happens.

What about DMSO + Insecticide against Bug Spirits?

If bug spirits have a severe allergy to insecticide (i think they do) then its 1P every minute they're exposed (and a -4DP modifier to all actions to boot).

They do.

I even have an Advertisement for that!

This makes me wonder how i could work in those new 'Water Guns' that the firefighters have been testing
. I forget what they're called but they shoot the 'balls' of high-pressure water; it showed two firefighters extinguishing a car fire REALLY fast with it. They would aim, *whoomp*, and this high-pressure ball of water would land on the fire and smother some of it. Aim *whoomp*. And the cool thing was they really did look like guns hooked up to backpacks. I think it had the disadvantage of really only being useful against class A fires, but i can't quite remember.

They could wreck some "#%¤ on a fire elemental by the look of it, though.

No, actually Synner really did post something to that effect. I am uncertain whether he meant no -1/2 AP, no elemental stun effect or simply no damage at all.

Interesting topic. I did not find anything from Synner concerning sns against spirits with the search function.

I had tried to find that post too, but I have not found it. But I am very certain he did make such a post, because it was the very few times I was not happy when a developer posted an "intention" clarification. I remember he was quite clear about it, I had hoped the writers would go for a more strategically ambiguous stand on the matter.

I remember seeing a post about it too. Possibly was Franktrollman and not Synner. I'll keep digging around for it as i can.