Well, I've finally done it. I have finally scrounged enough karma and nuyen to get my full-borg Troll up to an augmented Body of 18, with an armor rating of 36.

What should I do with him first?

go watch the ancients and the spikes duke it out from front-row-seats and don't care about any damage coming his way *g*

Oh MAN that's perfect. And with POPCORN, of course.

just be carefull not to look too much like a troll and don't wear any Spikes Insignia . . or the ancients will see you as a legit target *g*
i did something similar in SR3 once . . i had a really tough troll, surged with additional dermal armor and the bone-spikes, maxed out body plus toughness and cyber/bio body-add-ons and mucho armor carried/implanted . . and i went into a Bar that was more or less fgrequented only by Ancients and ordered a Large drink . . and demanded a Troll-Large when the Drink came *g*

Well, at 2.8 meters, I don't know how he can try to "not look like a troll". But then, with a total Damage Resistance pool of 50, and 17 Physical wound boxes (plus another 21 overflow), I'm not certain if he really *cares* whether he's a target.

See all it takes is stunbolt. As you resist with Willpower, and take stun.

I really need to chime in here and remind you that even though you may have bought high Body ratings for your cyberlimbs across the board, you have not really "augmented" your Body attribute.

Your Body attribute is more than just half your Damage Resistance test pool. Body is also used for Toxin Resistance tests, some Drug Resistance tests, tests to resist radiation, and a variety of other things.

While you may effectively have a Body rating of whatever for soaking a bullet, the abstract that Body represents is so much more. In these cases, you would just use your natural rating. If you tried to cheat the system and you bought it at 5 for your troll, you pretty much hosed yourself. This also affects your Physical Condition track.

Additionally, how do you have 18 for Body? I'm rereading the rules on page 44 for customized cyberlimbs, and it says the highest you can push your cyberlimbs' individual attributes is up to your augmented maximum.

I'm not trying to be a killjoy here. I just get a little twitchy when I see people referring to their cyberlimbs as "augmented attributes," when that is so not the case. The individual limb is replaced with a set of attributes of its own -- there is no global attribute augmentation to speak of.

Start walking into Humanis Policlub meetings, and demanding a membership?

Train "Attack Ghouls" for Organized Crime?

Get into a dominance fight with a Snow Moose during mating season?

just tell them you're a really big ork and the doks gave you the wrong body parts ^^

Would'nt the borgs armor be limited to twice body max of 20? (Some clerical errors in arsenal regarding some of the vehicle armor maxes make that little confuseing.) Of course using the Otomo drone body could still load up on standard armor.

Edit: Otomo's max body would be 9 if using "Structural Reinforcement " posted on Dumpshock by Synner. Max armor 18 correct?

I could be wrong, but I think HentaiZonga is not actually refering to a Cyborgs as in Augmentation as much as a fully tricked-out samurai-type. Lots of 'ware, but not actually a vehicle or a dead dude.

Oops sorry saw the mention of Borg and thought he meant the Aug Full Borg conversion.

How did you get it to 18? Troll augmented max is 16 with exceptional attribute.

Yeah, but it's 18 with exceptional attribute and gene optimization from Augmentation.

actually, 16 was with exceptional attribute.... as for augmentation... meh... not enough in that book to interest me.

I know it was 16 with exceptional attribute, I just explained that you can reach 18 by also using gene optimization from Augmentation. Whether Augmentation interests you is beside the point.

Wait, i always thought that, say for a limb, the Custom limb went from levels 1-6. Base regular cyberlimb is rating 3, and if you take 6 levels of a Custom Cyberlimb, that goes up to 9. From what i see from this chargen program i have(the one in the other forum, the one Excel program.)

Now, there is in addition Body, Agility, and Strength upgrades. From what i read and understood, a limb can go much higher than the regular human augmented max(i think you needed a torso or something to get it past a certain point.)

Now, I also understand a cyberlimb has nothing to do with your natural attribute. A human with all 1's could replace all their limbs and torso and juice them up from my knowledge. (Isn't this how alot of cyberzombies are made, by replacing lots and lots of parts?)

If a troll with a natural Body of...8, lets say, got a Cybertorso and maxed out the Custom Body(to 9), and then got 7 levels of Body Augmentation to said torso(to 16), i thought that was legal. Now, naturally, it used up most of the capacity(7 body was 7 out of 10 torso capacity), and their NATURAL body when it comes to resisting an ingested toxin would still be 8 as far as i know, but I was almost positive it was legal to basically go to town on a limb if you had the resources and ability. (I don't remember off the top of my head, but i don't recall them having and hard limits on cyberlimbs when it comes to racial maxes Cyberlimbs THEMSELVES have a max(6 levels of Custom Limb, 7 levels of Augmentation which was 16 when it was all said and done). Some human cyberzombies and jarheads(in human cyberbodies) have limbs way beyond the Human Augmented 9 limitation.

Unless i'm confusing that with something else. Yeah, I'm confused.

no, you're pretty much spot on. . still does not really explain how he got his body up to 18, that was hard enough in SR3 and there you rounded up instead of down O.o
but since augmentation one can get limbs(and yes, the torso counts as a limb) up to racial maximum . . if it weren't for the availability going up accordingly . . so a human with all 1's across the board could replace hos whole body with 6's across without really needing the torso and not using up any capacity in the limbs either . . so he could still boost up his limbs to all 9's across the board and STILL not need the Torso but of course use up capacity in the limbs . .
now if the human wanted to further boost his limbs ABOVE 9, he would need the Torso again

Well, in SR4, glancing at the limbs-the custom cyberlimbs are what determine the BASE attribute of the limb. (I think the minimum base was 3 before the custom). Custom goes up to level 6(or 9 total). I think i understand that. But custom limbs don't take capacity; just nuyen(i think it was 1500 a level or something around that.) So for 9k, you have a limb with base rating 9 and full capacity available. (plus the price of the limb, of course.)

THEN you can start getting the actual attribute augmentations. These, as far as i can tell, are from 1-7, taking up 1 capacity per level and giving the limb a final attribute of 10-16, depending on how many you take.

So technically, 16 body is the max for a limb, regardless of race or whatnot. I thought limbs and race really had nothing to do with each other-while it's understandable that a human can't augment his natural body past 9, with cyberlimbs it seems, on the surface, that they can surpass that by being, well, custom made cyberlimbs. It's the only way i can think of said human or elf cyberzombies with limbs in the double-digit range.

But i guess what everyone is trying to figure out how the body attribute of the cyberlimbs got to 18.

where's frank?
he made the rules for cyberlimbs for the first time playable . . he should be able to explain at least the intent *g*

ElFenrir&Stahlseele you should probably read again the relevant parts of Augmentation(pg.44) and BBB(pg.335)

you can take a custom cyber limbs up to your characters natural-maximum and after that you can get cyberlimb enchament to take limbs atriputes to augmented maximum

so for a normal human that would be 3 levels of custom limbs(to 6) and 3 leves of enchaments to body,strengh and agility of 9 for 15600 ,9 capacity and +9 to availebility

Make him enter a free-for-all close combat tournament with his patented prime grenade and hug opponent technique.

So how do the human cyberzombies end up with such high stats? I know i've seen some cyberzombie NPCs with higher than 9's. Unless they are special somehow.

And I know ive seen jarheads discussed as being able to go over 9 as well, even though they are human shaped. Isn't a full conversion cyberzombie/cyborg just a torso, four limbs, a head, or whatnot?

I think i actually recall a thread here(its been a while), that discussed jarheads(human body) with attributes in the 13+ range. I havn't gotten a chance to take apart Augmentation yet, totally, however. My friend's got one copy that i flipped thru and my own copy is on its way in the mail(damned shipping wait. Finland isn't THAT far. )

Cyborgs(jarheads) are just a metahuman brain in a drone body

oftopic: Why did you order abroad and not locally for example from Boostep.fi

ordering: my husband was ordering a few books from Amazon, and i just included this one in the group. I could have ordered locally too i guess but this seemed to work ok.

As for some other opinions..(warning, long, so bear with me)...

Well, im also still thinking SR3 terms sometimes with rules. The way we played, you could pump a limb til you ran out of Essence; it worked fine for us, really. It was tough to actually get a full suite of fully pumped limbs since they cost essence after 3 points of augmentation(not to mention the cost was extravagant).

I guess im using a little bit of...hmm. I guess my way of thinking is that I can understand while a metahuman BODY can only take so much, to me a limb is totally artifical(in the case of a torso, mostly artifical with some original parts left) and should be able to be augmented to it's OWN maximum. An arm is an arm. For example; and Ork and Human arm is probably roughly the same size; assuming a 6'4'' Human and a 6'4'' Ork.

Orks are naturally stronger and tougher; yes. And let's even assume these guys are both Strength 5. Now, for an ork that's 'a little above average'(human 3 equivalent), for a human, it's daaamned good. But they are still both Strength 5. But if you chop off the Human's arm, and the Ork's arm, and then replace their torso-i just don't understand why they both can't get them both Strength 12 modified. (again, i think you could before. We played it like that, anyhow). At this point, both the same-sized Human and Ork have artifical right arms and, i'd say about 75% artifical torsos(im guessing the only things that are natural are their organs and some bone, like a spine).

Now, if said Human and Ork, both Strength 5 got just plan old muscle augmentation and a Suprathyroid(+5), the Human would cap at 9(barring genetics), the Ork can go to 10. I can see this in the sense that since nothing is replaced, the cap would count. The human's body just can't quite go that high-in it's natural form.

But when you start fully replacing those limbs-to me, the limits should go up. Giving up a limb is aorund one essence and a fair amount of money. A limb and a torso together, completely tricked out, is a large portion of nuyen and essence(almost half the body's essence unless you have Biocompatibility, or Alphaware, in which you sacrifice Capacity.) Of course, you can start getting into the science where they say the natural, normal real life human body actually has ALOT more power than most people think; but it can give out before we can fully utilize that power. Replace the squishy natural limbs with pure hydraulic, titanium, stainless steel and other metals, and suddenly the person isn't as limited. Now, you get to the thing of ripping a limb out, but that's where the Torso comes in-if the torso is of equal power to the arm, there shouldn't be a problem. And i don't think that the organs, ribcage and spine left in the torso when it's replaced by cyber is really enough to say the Human can't have a Strength 12 just like the Ork.

Would their uncybered limbs still be limited? I'd say so. And i'd also rule that you'd need the torso to pump the cyberlimbs past your racial augmented max(unless you wanted to risk ripping them out.) But i just don't see why it couldn't be possible. Again, the cyberzombies. (unless they are so cybered they could i guess be orks but look human since they look like robots alot of times anyway.)

I very well might have a different view of full replacement limbs that is given, however. Ive always thought of them as a way to ''really boost yourself to huge levels''...at the heavy price of, well, your natural limbs, a hefty sum of nuyen, and a crapload of Essence. Not to mention keeping them upkept and the like.

yes that makes lots of sense to me, i was just stating what the RAW says about the matter not my own opinion.

Ahh, cool mate What i would personally kick around doing is either A. Houseruling back to how we used to play it in 3(you pays the money and essence and get yer limbs chopped off you can get much better toys), OR perhaps B. Houserule in a sort of ''Custom Limbs +'' which cost double perhaps, but let you go above the augmented max.

With the addition of the Redlining rules, I don't really see the need to pump limbs up to inane levels.

Plus, a cybertorso isn't really a torso replacement. It's a metal shell around your internal organs. So a human would need a human-sized cybertorso.

Well, the average Ork is about as large as a tall human; i know quite many people in the 1.9 meter range, and even bigger. Both seem proportioned very similar. Human with a troll torso is pushing it(though with the rules now it seems like you could build ANY kind of body to stick a brain into) but i don't see why an elf or human couldn't get an ork torso replacement. Elves are generally more slender, but the same average height; and an elf or human that put some time in the gym could certainly get pretty beefy. Again, just my opinions. Use whatever is right for your table in the end of course.

Basically, I've got his natural Body up to 9 (he has Toughness, Will to Live, and Exceptional Attribute: Body, but I haven't bothered to max it out), then got Adapsin and Genetic Optimization geneware, then got a full suite of Beta-grade custom limbs, torso and skull, all with +5 Body and 4 levels of Armor, and filled the rest of their capacities up with Strength enhancements. Then I filled him out with some body-enhancing bioware (and a Trauma Damper, Platelet factory and the like), to get his 'wet' attributes up as well. His natural Body is still 9, but he's got an 18 for damage resistance tests, and anywhere from 15 to 17 for most toxin/poison/disease tests. His un-augmented Strength is only 5 (since it doesn't really matter with 4 cyberlimbs), and his Willpower is 5. The rest of his stats are pretty crap-tastic; the goal wasn't so much to have a well-rounded character, as someone that could take a Panther round to the chest buck-naked - and basically 'tank' while the rest of the team did their thing. He also carries most of the spare gear, and more than occasionally carries the technomancer and/or mage when they manage to get themselves knocked out during the run.

heh, the perfect troll for every team *g*
if you can somebow manage to get his strength up a little bit more, than you can use a collapsible bow and do mucho amage too ^^
seriously? that's what trolls were frigging meant to do, anybody telling you different hasn't had enough trouble keeping his character alive in combat *g*