On October 18th I plan to participate in a pistol competition for county employees in Clark County, NV. It would be my first time ever participating in a pistol competition, so I plan to just relax and enjoy the experience. I don't expect to necessarily do well.

The only handgun I own is a Ruger P97DC, which I purchased used about a year ago from a Henderson gun shop. I guess that it's not really considered a match firearm, but I've put nearly a thousand rounds through it, and I play lots of video games which hones my hand eye coordiation, so I am even curious to see how I am able to perform in spite of whatever drawbacks and inexperience might hinder me.

Also, there are seperate competitions for "marksmen" and "amateurs" so I'd also be participating in the less hardcore division.

It seems like the competition would consist of the following events:

1.) 22 yards 6 rounds 30 seconds
2.) 15 yards 12 rounds 40 seconds
3.) 10 yards 12 rounds 40 seconds
4.) 7 yards 12 rounds 40 seconds

I'm pretty sure that the people here on DSF have heaps more experience and expertise pertaining to all kinds of firearms than I do, and that this is all very ho-hum. But for me since it would be a new experience I'm really excited, and actively hoping that nothing pops up (like getting hit by a bus) that would prevent me from being able to participate that day.

I also figure that after everything is done, I can record my scores and post them here on DSF. Then someone who is smart like Raygun or someone else (since Raygun basically doesn't post here anymore) can tell me what my SR Pistols score is. Or maybe they can even tell me that I apparently have no combat pool! :0

Sounds like fun. Do you know how the event is scored?

It says,

Well, the sum total of my experience with firearms consists entirely of playing FPS's and shooting gallery arcade machines, so I have no idea how hard that will actually be. Best of luck though!

Good luck with the competition. Most of my experience are with rifles, only shot a pistol a handful of times (I own two rifles and no pistols).

Well the key thing here on DSF would be to get people to tell me what my SR3 and SR4 Pistols skill is.

I wouldn't worry about your P97DC and it's potential accuracy. I own one myself and it's definitely more accurate than I am. The best part about your Ruger there is how it shoots everything about the same. You get some of the higher-end .45s like the custom/semi-custom 1911s and they like or dislike a lot of different loads. That Ruger likes everything pretty much the same so there is no need to mix and match your ammo to your weapon.

Just grab some WWB and you'll be good to go for your competition.

If you've noted the trigger being a bit on the "clunky" side in DA, you're not alone. One trick you might try to be sure you're not gonna throw your first shot is to pre-cock the weapon before your strings. Trigger control is your god so before you go out on the firing line for money and/or prizes, be sure that you're nice and clear on the breaking and reset characteristics of your trigger with a trip to the range within a few days before the competition itself.

Tell us what your score is at each station and I'm sure that myself or someone else will be able to give you a "close enough for gov-ment work" skill level if you're still curious when the competition is over.

Keep us posted, as I'm sure more of us want to hear how it went.

Oh, absolutely. It's on October 18th, so it's not even too far away. I'm actually really excited to hear people's ideas of what a score might reflect in Shadowrun terms.

I own a p97 . actuall a p87 with the recall safty upgrade but its the same weapon.

Its really bad at longer range shots. If you have shot a lot of rounds through make sure its really clean befor you go shoot. Its prone to jamming by not fully ejecting the shells. also dont skimp on ammo for the shoot cheap ammo fires dirty and will cause jamming as well.

Well, I used to have a lot of problems with jamming, but that was probably due to a faulty extractor, which would pop out of the pistol every 300 rounds or so. At that time I had all sorts of misfeeds and jams. Ever since I had the extractor replaced, though, I haven't had a single malfunction. Maybe you might consider replacing the extractor on your P97?

Your video game experience will not matter one bit. It doesn't count, except as experience for gaming.

This appears to be a target competition. It'll require a lot of skill and some tuned gear.

Go in with an open mind with the goal of having fun. Keep your mouth shut and your ears open. Listen to the older shooters, because they'll have a wealth of knowledge. If you ask good questions, you'll get more information than you can possibly use.

Also, take some extra ammo. Take a box of 45 ACP and some extra 9mm. I bet if you ask questions, people will offer to let you shoot their guns. Once you handle a Les Baer target gun (or equivalent), you'll dump your Ruger and never look back

Take pictures of your targets and post them! You could also go get an account at thegunblogs.com and post them there. Mr. Completely runs a monthly postal match that you can participate in--they're usually challenging.

It does not apply. People make the mistake of thinking that TARGET shooting is the same as COMBAT shooting.
When shooting targets for score, I have NEVER grabbed the target, fired from retention, and then stuck the muzzle of the gun through the target in a very violent way. Nor have I ever done dynamic movement during a competition (though some light movement is included in IDPA and Cowboy Action Shooting), along with point shooting and "zippering" the target up from nuts to neck.

The goal of target shooting is to place rounds as precisely as possible on a target for the highest possible score.

The goal of combat shooting is to stop your adversary through force (that's the PC/Court Room way of saying it).

The reality is, you're delivering multiple deadly blows to the enemy. There's no level of force less than lethal when we're talking about real bullets leaving the barrel. Unfortunately, our system has become so silly that we have to call it something other than killing. But, that's the essence of it: do extreme violence first in such a way that you get to go home.

Combat shooting includes tactics, movement, sighted and point shooting, combatives, and fitness.

Therefore, your SR Pistol skill is 0.

If we define level 3 as "Professional" per the rules on page 108 of SR4, then you can get to a three pretty quickly simply by following a series of gun courses (about 6-7 full days of training). Just remember, this is not rocket science; it's pistol gun fighting.

Here's where you'd go to get a 1 in Pistol: http://www.fpftraining.com/courses.html#dhs1. DHS 2 combined with a combatives course (Matt Temkin's Close Quarters Combat course would do) would take you to Pistol 2.

Take this for Pistol 3:

http://www.shivworks.com/pdf/ECQC%20Course%20overview%20.pdf

At this point, you'd have the sighted and point shooting, some movement, some force on force training, combatives, and mindset.

To get to level 4, you'll need a dedicated movement course and lots of point shooting. Roger Phillips' "Point Shooting Progressions" is a movement course. DHS 2 will cover operating at night.

Most of this is variations on the same few themes; mastery just means you take simultaneous action faster under adverse conditions. Shoot 10-20,000 rounds a year (or more) under a program you develop using these courses. That will take you to Pistol 5.

I'm not sure how to get to Pistol 6...get in a bunch of gun fights? There's not much left to do, other than shave hundreths of a second off your times. Do lots of force on force and spend time on combatives.

***

Rifle was mentioned and is another game altogether. Let's talk about "Automatics" as applied to so-called "assault" rifles.

1) Minuteman Rifle from FPF Training is an example of a first course.
2) Magpul Dynamics Carbine course would get you some extra trigger time to get to Automatics 2.
3) Magpul's Advanced Carbine course would get you to Automatics 3.

You'll need to get some long range experience from 300-600 yards. This is important to do, if only for confidence in your abilities. Remember, we're talking about combat shooting, not target shooting...so 18"x24" steel plates are good enough for simulating a human torso.

You'll need to learn room clearing too. You can get that in some of the advanced courses.

Finally, you'll need to diversify your skills by learning other rifle platforms.

I've got 2 counter arguments as to why (at least SR3) Pistols would be reflected by this style of competition. I can't really talk about SR4 since I don't know those rules but in SR3,

1.) Combat Pool, not the Pistols score, is what makes you less likely to be hit in a firefight. The pistols score alone has nothing to do with your ability to avoid or minimize damage. Therefore I would argue that tactics (i.e. room clearing procedures, instinctive taking of cover, etc) would be represented entirely by Combat Pool and not at all by the Pistols score.

2.) The skill descriptions in the SR3 BBB actually uses Pistols as an example of what each skill level is supposed to mean. The examples never touch on tactics, nor really on mindset beyond the mindset used for becoming one with the pistol. So I'd argue that it explicitly states in the SR3 BBB that the Pistols skill is straightforward accuracy, smoothness, and comfort firing a gun, and not combat mindset, room clearing procedure, or fitness.

Nothing to really add; SR3 is different.



Room clearing = tactics with a group. Not really applicable to the argument.

Mindset is roleplayed and determines actions...not really applicable in this context of Combat Pool/Pistol.

Combat Pool = Quickness + Intelligence + Willpower / 2.

Quickness is dependent upon physical fitness. You're fooling yourself if you think that's not the case.

Fitness is essential to any combat activity. Good, speedy movement, on demand in adverse conditions is necessary. The target has to get out of the kill zone or get shot. Moving quickly is better...and doing it repeatedly under stress requires a strong body. I've watched very overweight and out of shape men train in many, many gun courses. They need more frequent rest and they don't move as smoothly. They certainly don't have the explosive movement capability required to get off the X (X is where the bullets are going) in a speedy way, as required to avoid a hit. If you go too slow, the bad guy will work through his OODA Loop (google it) and catch up...which is when you catch a bullet.

Additionally, pistol shooting defined as "straight forward accuracy, smoothness, and comfort firing a gun" is simply another definition of target shooting. It fails to address everything that a Shadow Runner would really be interested in, including:

1) Burst fire (controlled pairs, double taps, emergency drills, zippering)
2) Point shooting (from Enos' Type 2 focus down to Fairbairn/Sykes 1/2 Hip)
3) Weapon presentation (from concealed and open)
4) Explosive "get off the X"
5) Reloads (administrative for target shooting, tactical and emergency for combat)
6) Weapon disarms and retention techniques
7) Drawing to the target from any direction
8) Moving while shooting (obliques, forward, flanking, etc)
9) Shooting from odd positions
10) One handed shooting
11) Contact shooting/CQB (sort of a combination of martial arts with a gun in hand)
12) Gun transitions from strong to weak hand while moving
13) Malfunction drills
14) Various continuums: grip, sight, etc. Google "7677" and "Sight continuum"


I'm sure I'm missing a few things, but you get the idea.

Rule #1 : Listen to & Obey the rules of the range. Read any & all Safety Placards mounted on the walls.
Rule #2: Ask questions. The judges are there to help you. If you are unsure about anything, find out.
Rule #2a : Remember where the bathrooms are, but LEAVE THE WEAPONS ON THE RANGE.
Rule #3: Respect your fellow competitors & they will respect you.
Rule #4: REPEAT RULE #1

Yes, Quickness impacts combat pool (i.e. get off the X), but Quickness is not the Pistols skill. They're linked but they're not one and the same. It is possible for a SR3 character to have Quickness 1 but Pistols 12. It would be weird, but you could crunch the numbers. And that would mean that probably the character in question would be slow as dough on the draw and would have trouble not getting shot, and his maximum possible damage and power bonuses he could get from successes would be less than what a character with the same level of skill but more pool could get. So it's not that the Pistols skill encompasses all these things, but rather that a properly trained shadowrunner would have both a good QUI, an Athletics skill, lots of pool, AND a high Pistols score.

So, yes, the Pistols score alone doesn't provide everything a shadowrunner would need. We can imagine an overweight security guard who is talented with a very steady hand who has Pistols 8 but all his Attributes are 1 so he's still easy for the player characters to paste.

That being said, my original question wasn't whether or not I'd be an awesome shadowrunner whirlwind of death who could solo the Arcology. My original question was simply what my Pistols score would be based on how well I shoot the target paper under mild stress.

Yes, and I answered the question: your Pistol skill is at 0 or 1. Video games do not count as experience. If you took the NRA Basic Pistol course, then I'd place your skill level at 1 due to: 1) familiarity with safety and handling procedures, 2) background information, and 3) the very basic instruction and short shooting session that occurs in the course.

If you want to increase your skill level in a way that would interest a Shadowrunner, then you'll need to follow the training sequence I described. It trains up Combat Pool and Pistol (SR 3) or just dumps the points into Pistols (SR 4). It's really a gun fighting skillset, not a target skill set. Why can't people wrap their heads around the difference?

Because people want to think they're actually cooler, more R0XX0R or something, than reality?

Your gun is a .45 right? I guess I'm just not used to target competitions in .45. I think everything in the Olympics is .22, and US markesmanship stuff did AR-15s.

I would hate to try and train for competition with the cost of .45 ammo. Though I suppose if you're also concealed carrying it could be money well spent.

I don't think most people realize just how innacurate an untrained person with a .45 is. I remember when I took one out for the first time. Couldn't hit anything at 25 yards.

I am not certain where this is going...it's not the cartridge that's the problem. 45 ACP is a very accurate round for target shooting, especially when the rounds are carefully handloaded. Consistency in case weight, case length, bullets, overall length, and powder charge is essential.

For the OP, though, none of this is going to matter. He's going to the match to compete and learn. He'll pick up lots of tips and info from guys who've been competing for a long time.

Hopefully, he'll stick with it. It is a fun sport.

Mostly just that it's expensive to go through .45 ammo. But again if he has the gun for self defense he should train on it anyway.

I've had some training with pistols earlier, though. While I was in college I took 2 semester long classes which met a couple times a week for a few hours where we learned safety, range ettiquette, and practiced a lot of shooting at paper targets 50 feet away. We mostly shot .22s but in each class the instructors had collections they brought to the range so I was lucky enough to try out a variety of handguns.

Also, last year I took a 1 day tactical pistols class which covered the basic aspects of some of the skills you mentioned above.

Since I moved through Nevada I've put maybe a little over 1000 rounds through my Ruger just practicing on my own reviewing the materials from the classes.

Yeah, it's expensive. :/ I've been meaning to start reloading brass, and I've got a lot of collected brass, but I haven't had the chance to get into that yet.

But I always enjoyed shooting a .45 more than other lighter calibers. I feel like a .45 has a steady, almost serene beat that you can get into when shooting. When I shoot a 9mm out of something like a Beretta 92 it feels like a quick, quiet fart...fft, fft, fft. It's hokey. When I shoot 9mm out of a Glock I feel like the pistol kind of jumps in this sharp, spikey way that is hard to flow with and control. But with the .45, it's bakam....bakam....bakam.....you feel that recoil, let your sights fall back on target. It's like the gun gives you a steady, reassuring recoil and calmly lets you know when it's ready to fire again. You focus your breathing in time with the recoil, and it's really similar to meditation. Firing a .45 makes me feel serene.

Awesome! Keep with it. Go take a "Level 2" course somewhere (sometimes they're listed as "advanced").

***

What I like about reloading 45 ACP is the wide case mouth and low pressure. It's very forgiving of mistakes. This allows me to crank out more midrange rounds with fewer QC checks.

Yesterday was the day of the tournament, and here's a little write-up on my results.

HOLY CRAP! This was the first pistol competition I ever participated, and now that I think about it the first official tournament based on physical skills which I ever participated in during my lifetime, but in spite of these factors I scored a bronze medal in the amateur division with a score of 395 out of (I believe) 420! THIRD PLACE WHOOHOO! I'm absolutely elated, especially given how many people had told me the handgun I was using, a Ruger P97DC, is "not considered a match gun" and was probably truthfully one of the more unwieldly pistols present given that it's a .45 with a metal slide and polymer base.

Here are some uploaded pictures from the tournament which shows my scored targets. The event consisted of 6 rounds in 30 seconds at 22 yards, 12 rounds in 40 seconds at 15 yards with a mandatory reload after 6 shots, 12 rounds in 40 seconds at 10 yards with a mandatory reload after 6 shots, and lastly 12 rounds in 40 seconds at 7 yards with a mandatory reload after 6 shots.

Overview picture with both target papers, my trusty Ruger, and if you zoom in on the full sized image you can see the judge's scoring in chalk, and also my handwritten notes about the distances from which I shot at each paper: http://i34.tinypic.com/2803w92.jpg

Here is a close up of the target paper I used for 22 yards and 15 yards: http://i37.tinypic.com/9u82lu.jpg

And here's the paper I used for the closer distances: http://i38.tinypic.com/f553td.jpg

Because this was my first tournament ever I felt extremely nervous. Before the scored shooting began I was warming up and initially my shooting was absolutely terrible. I felt like I was doing everything correctly and my sights looked perfectly lined up, but at first all my shots were going way far to the left. It felt like a bad dream because in spite of my seeming to do everything correctly all my shots seemed to be horrendously, surreally off. I couldn't believe it and at first I started to get more nervous but I forced myself to calm down. Eventually during this warm up I just started loading 3 rounds each into my magazines and really focusing on my breathing in order to calm myself down. I warmed up until the last minute and luckily just as time out I finally was shooting reasonably again after having gone through around 60 rounds. In retrospect it's a good thing I brought 250 rounds with me to the range since I was able to shoot until I was calm.

During the scored shooting events I still felt nervous, although I felt at the time that in spite of my nervous feeling that my shooting was decent for myself. My palms were sweating and even though my hands weren't visibly shaking they felt like they were quivering as I loaded my magazines and performed the mandatory reloads. I think that my reloading was faster than lots of other competitors' because when I heard them reloading they seemed to be taking a long time in compared to me based on auditory clues.

In the end I can't believe I won a medal and finished in third place in the amateur division. I'm extremely surprised and happy because I went into the competition expecting to do horribly due to inexperience.

Way to go. Congratulations.

So what's my SR Pistols score?

Ummmm .... third place with 395?

Seriously, I wouldn't know where to start when it comes to giving you a specific Skill level. I will go on record as saying that it is more than a mere 1 though.

2/3 in SR4 I think as im yet to enter and try a good base line with my skill of 0 we wont know. Plus we dont know how fast you are that could be your agility not skill but a 2/3 looks and sounds about right 3 is professionally skilled so may be a high 2.

2/3 in SR4 I think as im yet to enter and try a good base line with my skill of 0 we wont know. Plus we dont know how fast you are that could be your agility not skill but a 2/3 looks and sounds about right 3 is professionally skilled so may be a high 2.

First, AWESOME job!

***

Target shooting has nothing to do with combat shooting other than to demonstrate control of the gun.

Your Pistols skill is at a 1 because you showed pretty good control. There is some work for you to do. However, this is just the beginner level and does not reflect the tactical realities of a gun fight. Can you do this on the move? Have you fired at moving targets while moving yourself? Can you shoot, move, reload on the move, and continue shooting? Do you know how to clear a double feed? Can you shoot one handed, at any angle to the target, from hip to eye level, while moving? Do you know how to do an after-action assessment? How fast is your draw? Finally, do you know how to handle the police?

See below.

***

It's the INDIAN, not the bow. Just because you don't have a tricked out, $2,000 1911 target pistol doesn't mean one cannot do well. Too many "gear queers" forget that. They try to buy success, forgetting that only work "buys" success.

I attended www.fpftraining.com's "Homeland Rifle" (actually, it's called Minuteman Rifle, but he didn't update the website) this weekend. I was using a Vector AK-47 with underfolding stock. Other guys were using tricked out AR-15's with red dot optics...and getting terrible groups at 25 yards (I'm talking 6-8" off with a group size of 4"-12"). They had the gear, but not the skill. My "inaccurate" AK-47 was getting mostly centered 1" groups for slow fire prone. Once they trained up through this morning, they got on target and had no trouble. But, they had to go through the process of learning HOW to make their gun perform. By the end of the course, they were handling their rifles properly, doing the manipulations, and shooting pretty well.

At Long Range International's "Long Range Hunting Course", I took a Savage 10FP with Pride Fowler RR800-1 scope. This is a sub-$600 gun with a $500 scope. It had NO trouble hitting an 18"x24" steel target at 1,000 yards. Everyone THINKS they need a $4,000 Accuracy International gun (one guy had one, another had a Tubbs rifle that probably cost $5,000+.) Here's my review of the course: http://www.thehighroad.us/showthread.php?t...e+International

Here's another review that show pictures of Stan. Stan is 69 years old and has a really nice rifle in 338 Lapua. He shoots it at targets that are one mile away. He posted one of his one mile targets on the wall of the barracks at LRI. It was an 11" group.

http://longrangeinternational.com/forum/vi...?f=21&t=310

Stan is the guy in the second picture with Titania. BTW, that guy whacked a gazillion pairie dogs with a $160 Marlin rifle in 17 HMR out to 325 yards

***

Are you right handed? The following assumes a right handed shooter. It is best to diagnose shooting problems in person, so these are "best guesses".

Shots going left or to the 7 o'clock position indicate problems with trigger pull.

"Front sight, trigger control!" This is your mantra.

Front sight
Press straight back
Front sight

By seeing the front sight a SECOND time for each shot guarantees follow through. If you see vertical stringing where they're more or less in a line, you're not following through.

The really low shots are probably due to that or anticipating the recoil. The latter problem means you are moving your body before the bullet exits the barrel. Most folks do this because they're trying to resist recoil.

Take a look at these videos:

www.downrange.tv -> DRTV Videos -> Latest on DRTV -> "SIGTIPS: The Wall Drill" and "The Bump Drill".

Focus on trigger control. Most guys can aim really well; it's the trigger part that's the problem. Rob Leatham demonstrates this in his pistol course: the student aims and he works the trigger. Suddenly, their "shooting" dramatically improves. There may be a video on his site showing this (I think I saw it on "Guns and Ammo TV").

Additionally, I see that you're anticipating the recoil, as shown by several shots that are very low. There are three ways to mitigate this problem:

1) Relax a "switch" in your mind when you're starting the firing sequence. Turn it off and relax. This will prevent "stress" in your brain from manifesting itself in your hand. This is the most important one. You already learned to do this by yourself during your warm-up. Just focus it during the firing sequence.

2) Tighten your front hand a bit. This will also reduce the effects of poor trigger control, causing less movement in the sight picture. Support hand should be around 70% of the pressure, with the remaining 30% of pressure coming from your strong hand.

For one handed point shooting, use the convulsive grip.

3) Ball-n-Dummy Drill. Have a friend load your magazine without you looking. Mix in some dummy rounds. Try not to look into the action while loading. When you shoot, if you're anticipating the recoil, your gun's muzzle will drop when it goes "CLICK" on an ballistically challenged round. Obviously, don't do that!!!

You can keep saying it all you like, but 'Combat Shooting' is not the Pistols Skill in Shadowrun. Combat Shooting (while not actually being a skill in and of itself in Shadowrun) involves various other factors besides the ability to aim and squeeze the trigger of a firearm. An Olympic athlete could have what is considered to be a 7 in Pistols, but have never been under fire, never taken a combat course, never even drawn his weapon in a rapid manner. He still has 7 in actually shooting the pistol though.

You never played any sport? No egg and spoon races at school perhaps?
Anyway, good job.

Here's your tournament in SR1-3 terms;

1. 6 shots @ Long range in 10 turns
2. 12 @ Medium in 13 turns w. 1 reload
3. 12 @ Medium in 13 turns w. 1 reload
4. 12 @ Short in 13 turns w. 1 reload

Score of 7= 1 success, 8=2, 9=3 & 10=4

So, say you got 12 "10's" out of 12 at short range, that equals 4 successes each time. One simple action to aim, one to shoot each turn and 1 turn/2 simple actions to eject clip/reload = 13 turns. Your reaction is probably less than 4 ;)
With a TN of 3 [4-1 for aiming] 2 in 3 dice succeed which means your 4 successes cost 6 dice. Depending on your combat pool expenditure your skill could be as high as 6.
For more accuracy, you need to show your results for each range division rather than grouped.

Fortune,

You are absolutely, completely wrong.

Pistols does include all those skills, because that's what's needed to run the gun in combat.

Shrug. I personally know quite a few people (including two Olympic competitors) who have never been in combat, but are damn fine pistol shots. The presence of combat is not a requirement for skilled pistol use. The skill of firing a pistol (only) has nothing to do with combat.

What you describe is Combat Shooting, which is a completely different thing.

So what you're saying is my pistols skill is also my running skill, my dodge, and several other skills rolled into one? Damn, I've been wasting BP.

Seriously though, pistols in SR lets you aim at, and hit, a target (stationary or moving) with a pistol. Yes it covers snap-shots as well as aimed fire, but at the end of the day, everything else you're describing falls under other skill headings.

Don't be silly.

You're separating everything out...that's not how the body and mind work. The Pistols skills allows you to shoot and perform a simultaneous action (versus do one or the other). In role playing terms, the character gets to move and shoot. Yes, the game really doesn't work like that--glossing over it is fine. The main idea here is that the original poster's query was to evaluate his Pistols skill. We're going from REAL WORLD to GAME. In that CONTEXT, he lacks skills in many critical areas and target shooting just demonstrates control of the gun.

I saw this inability to perform simultaneous actions this past weekend in FPF Training's rifle course. People would STOP to reload. The gun goes "CLICK". The shooter would STOP moving, look down, drop the mag, pull a fresh one, insert and tug, operate the bolt, acquire a sight picture, and then move. Meanwhile, we're all hollering "MOVE MOVE MOVE" because that pause equals ballistic perforation.

If the Pistol skill was all about target shooting, then why aren't 'runners spending their time aiming for 15 seconds in the middle of a hall? People standing around in combat are bullet magnets. Go watch some police dash cams on You Tube and LiveLeak...they don't stand around.

No, it covers the use of pistols in combat. Why is this so difficult to understand? It's probably because you've never actually run a pistol in preparation for fighting...or even shot a gun. Do you know how to run a gun with only one hand? (By "run a gun with one hand", I mean: reload, clear different types of jams, shoot, and generally unfuck yourself with it). I bet a Street Samurai does. It doesn't even occur to people that these skills may be important (don't even get me going on state certified Security Targets...er...Guards).

Instead, they insist that standing in a lane at the range with safety glasses on, a boatload of range rules, and waiting on time-outs is actual fight training.

And, no, Counter Strike doesn't count as experience.

Oh, well, it's just a stupid game. Play it how you like.

I resent your assumptions.



Exactly. And in that game, just what the Pistols skill entails is quite clear. Defense is covered by other skills and / or attributes, and positioning, along with conditional and situational occurrences are covered by (typically negative) modifiers.

cREbralFIX - I see what you are aiming at, but in SR4, your pistols skills is just that- your skill with a pistol. Having a 7 in pistols doesn't mean you've been through extensive combat pistols training or even ever seen combat before. The thing is this

Sally is an Olympic competitor with what we would call a 7 in pistols. She wins a lot of Gold medals. On her way home from a competition she is accosted by gangers and it is the first combat she has seen in her life. Since Sally wins a lot we will give her an Agility of 5 as well. So, when the Weenies step out of the alley Sally has to make a composure test to not be frightened by the sight of other pistols pointed at her in anger- this is the first time she has ever seen this outside of the simflicks- she then has to move to cover which she doesn't have the running skill to accomplish in one round, she also doesn't have the experience to know what cover is best vs. her opponents weapons or the awareness of her surrounding to notice where available cover is. Sally is in for a bad day as she is gunned down mercilessly by people with a pistols score of 2. But, by god if they had let her get her bearings and get set up, she could have shot them all in the pupil of their left eye.

Unfamiliarity with combat is what the GM enforced penalties in SR4 are for, and not knowing good tactics... well that is punishment enough without adding extra penalties on top of it.

Chris

*Points at DTFarstar*
What he said.

Sally might not be ready to take down a house by herself but she can sure as fuck put a bullet in someones head provided she isn't scared, dying, or running away.

By cREbralFIX logic a championship rifleman wouldn't be a fucking fantastic sniper (still a gun skill right?). If we're going to be making up new "Combat" skills we should also include "Combat Running" "Combat Hacking" "Combat Driving" "Combat Survival" "Combat Dodge" because by goddamn! All those things a different when someone is shooting at you and your adrenaline is pumping (or so I'm told. Repeatedly.)


@Wounded Ronin: Good shooting!

You're right, I haven't fired a gun before, but as you said yourself: it's just a game.

DTFarstar and DocTautsu covered the rest of what I was going to say. =)

Pistols skill (in SR) covers your ability to put rounds into a target, accurately, with a pistol. Nothing more, nothing less. Clearing jams while running with one hand is Armoury (I think), though SR4 mostly glosses over jams.

Wow, your post was filled with lots of very useful information. Thank you very much for taking the time to type it up, put the links in, and for even looking at my target papers to help me with my shooting! I appreciate all the work that went into your post, and I apologize for not replying sooner.

The low shots were indeed my anticipating recoil. I used to do that a lot more, especially when I was trying to shoot relatively quickly. Would you believe me if I told you that maybe 8 months ago under some circumstances I used to chronically flinch with that Ruger? Now I usually avoid doing it, but sometimes when I'm feeling tense I'll end up flinching on a few shots as you noticed. It's gotten to the point that after shooting I know if I've flinched because I can sense just a bit of extra tension in my body.

However, I will try out your suggestion about tightening my front hand a bit. As I was training for this tournament, I had realized that some of my inaccuracy seemed to be stemming from my not following through well, and I started to practice making a special effort to control the gun well after firing while at the same time not flinching. So it would seem like if I tightened my front hand a bit more, I could do better still. I appreciate your suggestion as a good way to maintain better control of the pistol.

I also agree that one area I could improve in is trigger control. I think part of that is also the size of my hand versus the size of the grip on my pistol. I always felt just a bit awkward pulling on my trigger...like my hand was just somewhat, slightly not fitting with the gun, so that I often don't feel 100% comfortable with my finger position on the trigger. I don't notice it every time I shoot but sometimes I become aware of that. Another thing is that on a Ruger P97DC the trigger pull has been described by some as "mushy". You have to squeeze it relatively long to fire the pistol. Perhaps I should experiment with different finger positions on my trigger in order to systematically try and see which particular finger position contributes to the best trigger pull.


I appreciate your photos you linked to, and your stories about how some people get all enamored of expensive gear while ignoring their fundamentals. It was a very interesting read.


Finally, regarding the combat skills you mentioned in the above post...I won't say I'm good at them or anything, but I've practiced some of them at least briefly during that one day tactical pistols course I mentioned earlier. Some of them, like shooting while moving, I still practice occasionally on my own when I go to an outdoor range.

Thanks again for your very thoughtful and long reply. I appreciate the kindness you've shown me by giving me suggestions as to how to improve my shooting, and for articulating different ways in which I could continue to grow as a hobbyist through many different aspects of firearms use.

Sweet! Finally, a "serious" attempt to answer the question of what value my SR Pistols score is!

Unfortunately I don't have any way to tell which shots were at exactly which distance, but I imagine that as far as combat pool is concerned that everyone present would be putting full pool into their attack, since nobody was attempting to take cover in their stall and shoot while timorously peeking out while ducking up and down erratically.

Let's see...an average man with attributes of 3 would have a combat pool of (3+3+3)/2=4.5->4. However, a man with just one extra point in Quickness, Intelligence, or Willpower would have (4+3+3)/2=5, so I guess for the sake of figuring out what my SR Pistols score "should" we it would make sense to have the math reflect being able to put up to 4 or 5 pool dice into taking the shots.

Thanks!

The issue about which shots were which is that you shot at medium range at both targets, making a full SR assessment a problem. You could take the more accurate shots as being the closer range ones. This assumes the .45 is a heavy pistol by the way.

As for combat pool, the more pool used the lower your skill. Bugger that. I would go with a 4 pool and assume that participants only contributed half their pool to each shot. The environment may have been competitive but only in the full duress of a life and death struggle does the full pool manifest
Hence your skill is 4 (at least considering short range).

Easiest way I can think of to test this is head to a paintball range. Have several guys pop up from concealment and take pot-shots at you while you engage pop-up targets (or the shooters themselves) with a pistol.

Accuracy under stress is what I think the SR pistols skill is really intended to measure.

Wounded Ronin,

Would you happen to know the name of the competition you were in?

Also, you should shoot in Mr. Completely's match. They do an online monthly postal match. You shoot the target, take a digital photo of it, and email it in. Winners get bragging rights and a good time.

Yes, the competition was the Clark County Games Pistol Shoot in Las Vegas, NV.

I think I've heard of those mail-in pistol competitions. I've heard the competition is really fierce. Ha ha, I just might have to give it a try. Thanks again for the pointer.

Just curious...what did you decide was your Pistols skill level? For 3rd Ed, what do you think your combat pool is?

Well, if I'm totally average, my combat pool would be 4. If I'm a bit mentally talented or a bit agile it could be as high as 5.

Now, I can only put as many pool into shooting as I have skill. So even if my pool were 6 or 7 but my Pistols score were only 2, I could only roll 4 dice on the attack.

Link's assessment of 4 is probably reasonable, I guess, i.e. rolling 4 dice from skill and contributing 2 pool to be able to roll 6 dice for each Pistols related action. My skill could theoretically be as low as 3, and I could be contributing 3 pool to each shot. However, full pool use means you're doing everything you can to shoot the target and totally neglecting other considerations, so that would probably mean benching the pistol or something like that.

Note that the textual descriptions in the SR3 BBB might not match up with the mathematically derived skill level from this thread. Basically, the SR3 fluff descriptions of each level of the Pistols skill make a lot of the skill levels sound pretty basic up until 5, 6, 7, and 8. (I can't find the text online ATM and I'm about to leave.)