OK, Help a runner out. Both of my groups never use Ritual Casting. Its disparaged. One of the mage players has gone so far as to publicly recommending against taking the spellcasting group for value reasons.

What has been done in your games, not theoretical, to make Ritual Spellcasting worth its weight in SR4? From a player or GM perspective, doesnt matter as long as it has happened.

Thanks,
BlueMax

It's been happening in my group also. I guess it's more of a tool for NPCs than for PCs. It's just not really useful in most situations a player will encounter in Shadowrun.

Same here, most players take it as kind of fluff but has never been actually used as of yet.

The problem for a group of players is that Ritual Spellcasting requires that the cooperating mages be of the same tradition. If the players decide ahead of time to do that, or if the GM builds a campaign around a team of characters from the same tradition, then it can be a powerful tool, allowing the team to do some nasty stuff from far away. But most players like to create characters that are unique and individualistic. And in situations like a Missions game at a convention or something, it is highly unlikely that characters of the same tradition show up.

So, unless there is preparation before a campaign starts, Ritual Spellcasting is of little or no use.

Our group has the same conclusion. We've also decided that Banishing is worthless (throw stunbolts instead).

It is more like magical sniping. It takes time to set up, but can be quite deadly. Most groups generally don't take that much time to set up the shot. Most groups I have seen kind of have action movie characters. Ritual spell casting is only good if your team is more built that way.

We allow characters with Ritual Spellcasting to assist like in teamwork tests. Bonus dice are capped by the receiving characters ritual magic skill. Available for all magic based skill tests, everyone participating has to resist the full drain individually.

Though I asked for non theoretical situations, your description intrigues me. Can you list all of the steps necessary to achieve magical sniping with Ritual Spellcasting?

BlueMax

I may have to make a new thread for this one. We haven't come to the same conclusion. Usually, if facing a very high force spirit you can assume it has only a few or one service.

But yeah, stunbolts or Weapon foci make short work.

Banishing has limited usefulness...but it does have one thing in its favor: you can steal an opposing mage's spirit, apparently even if you couldn't normally summon that type.

True. You can, but it comes up rarely enough that I don't think most players are going to bother.

Also, who listens to this?

"Hey guys, ignore that force 10 spirit, I'm going to try and steal it."

"Yeah, I'll just sit here while it uses its critter powers on me (by the way, I don't get COUNTERSPELLING TO THAT)"

This is why I like the SR3 rules around spellcasting and conjuring over the SR4 rules. Banishing, ritual sorcery and such were specializations while now they are full skills. This mean you have to focus in one area of sorcery and conjuring (I suppose it makes for more realistic characters though). I do find that for a "general" style character (ie sits back and directs the SR team), ritual spellcasting would be helpful. You could give buffs to the team from a safe location. A rigger/hacker could fill a similar role with drones, servalence equipment, and maintaining a secure and active communication link between the PCs.

Except that's not what ritual spellcasting is. Sure, it allows you to do things out of LOS, but it's essentially just an Aid Another test using a different skill.

I'm pretty sure you can achieve the same result (with a lone mage) without the need for Ritual Spellcasting if you have the material component and know the guy.

Actually, don't you need a spotter (thus LOS) in 4th Edition?

Any lurkers sold on Ritual Spellcasting lauging at us please post.

BlueMax

Spotter or the ability to use sympathetic items to establish the link between the ritual group and the target.

Spirits work well for acting as spotter too.

My group only made use of ritual spellcasting just before the last team was temporarily retired (powerfully overwhelming after several years of play). Even then, it was of pretty limited use to us. The only use we made of it was to reach a couple of targets of interest that were located somewhere in the world we didn't have time to reach physically.

We got around the 'same tradition' issue by ruling that since we had founded our own multi-tradition magic group, the mystic link between us was suitable to the ritual.

The one advantage I can see to ritual spellcasting (but more specifically astral tracking) is in the leg up section of a run. Just like when a hacker has to find out information on a target and where they are located, the mage can do the same with ritual sorcery.

I once thought that Ritual Spellcasting was useless, as well, until I found a use for it in a Missions game. After that, I thought it was kickin' rad.

I was playing my black magician, and we were supposed to nab this little girl who was being guarded by her hardcore, tough-as-nails ex-runner bodyguard. She lived in the nicer side of Denver, was constantly being watched, etc. We couldn't find a way to grab her in the course of her daily routine without causing an incident. But we did have a layout of her house. We didn't want to actually go inside, however...

What ended up happening is we found out where she lived in Denver, and I sent a spirit to her house to watch her while she slept. She went to bed about 9pm. The next night we got into position near her home. I began my Ritual Spellcasting on her through a spotter, from my lodge at home. I had Magic 5, so the ritual was going to take 7 hours (12-Magic rating.) At about 4am, I casted an Influence spell on her. I put the thought into her head something along the lines of "Hey, I heard a noise outside. I should open my window and check it out!" She wakes up, unlocks her window, crawls out... into the arms of a waiting adept, who quickly puts a tranq patch on her, stuffs her into the van another one of my spirits has Concealment on, and they quietly roll away from the house.

Without ritual casting, the entire run could have gone south really fast. We were in a nice neighborhood with a fast response time by local security, up against a guarded home with hardcore protection inside. Instead of going in, we made our mark come outside to us. There were complications afterwards (damn RFID tags...) but the part of the run that could have gotten REALLY messy, well, it wasn't that way.

If you HAVE to cast a spell on a target but there are impediments to being there, ritual spellcasting is awesome. You can also use material links, and if you have the right metamagic, even recently handled objects or even drawings/photographs can work to cast a spell on the target. Seriously, if Ritual Spellcasting is being considered as underrated, it's because their imaginations aren't working hard enough on all the applications of it. Sure it doesn't do all the heavy lifting that regular Spellcasting does, but when you need it, it's NICE to have it. I recommend getting it at at least skill 3, possibly with a specialization (great for Combat and Manipulation spells.)

Abschalten, thank you. That was a pretty durned kool use.

I guess spirits as spotters is the way to go.

Who has more?

all in all it seems like ritual spellcasting is basically made for the old witch casting a curse over a bubbling of goo...

i suspected that it may had shown up alongside the vundun tradition in awakenings, but it seem it was all the way back in at least sr2 bbb...

Any Time I would consider using ritual spell casting due to the target being hard to get to, I have trouble seeing them without magical security. I can see it for some revenge based plays vs people who are on the run or something, but outside of that..eh. I doubt I'll bump into many situations where I can send a spirit to act as a spotter when I couldn't just get LOS of the target in a much easier fashion.

That is RAW, so why you brought it up in a thread saying it was lacking usefulness by RAW I do not know...


Ritual Spellcasting can be very powerful. It does not come up often, but is well worth it when it does. Please note that Ritual Spellcasting allows you to cast using Teamwork rules - it does not require it. Ritual Casting with a single character is entirely acceptable.


As for Banishing, by RAW, there is very little, if any, reason not to use Stunbolt instead. The ruling I will be using starting tomorrow (first day of the game) is that Banishing does not reduce Services Owed, but instead inflicts a temporary reduction in Force.

Each Net Hit on the Banishing Test reduces the spirit's Force by 1. If reduced to Force 0, the spirit is disrupted. Lost Force returns at a rate of 1 per hour. This makes it less powerful, but immensely more useful.

The same ruling will be used for Decompiling, & I also intend to use FrankTrollman's rules for Decompiling data (one of the few, if only, thing from his Matrix rules that will be in use).

The only thing i can think of where banishing is really useful is against possession based spirits. If the opposing mage let's a spirit possess one of your team members. Otherwise i'd not bother with it.

Concerning ritual spellcasting i agree with Shinobi Killfist. If you can't get LOS usually you cannot place a spotter either. Sympathetic Linking makes the feat even more expensive and is not a technique very high on my list.

Simple solution to make banishing useful:

Treat it as counterspelling against spirit powers in addition to its normal use, this cuts down on the overuse of influence and fear that I've seen at a few tables.

Also as an aside - banish is useful against possession spirits when you dont want to injure the host

OK, not really familiar with the new 4th Edition rules on Ritual Sorcery (still playing a predominantly 3rd Ed hybrid ATM), but as you're asking about the general concept of that skill...

Right, I have to admit that yes, Ritual Sorcery isn't that well-used in most runner teams. Most of my players have always preferred to use stright targeting Spellcasting, mainly because they didn't have enough players with magician characters. If the group did contain more than one magician, they were usually different traditions and completely different character types/personalities and so wouldn't work magical rites together anyway.

This is linked somewhat to when several PC magicians want to get initiated and thus think about the nice Karma discount for forming a magical group to do so. Now, I've had this situation crop up a few times, but upon reflection of the RAW, most players suddenly see that forming their own group isn't going to work out - primarily because they are of totally different traditions or can't agree upon the groups objectives/focus for the Astral Link/Avatar (and if by some miracle they did, they wouldn't follow through on the group's strictures for too long before they started to diverge and the link would thus fall apart). The only real solution to having magician PCs join a group was for them to seek out an NPC organisation that suited their personalities/goals/traditions individually.

Now, hopping on back to Ritual Sorcery - its main advantage is that it can target someplace/one/thing anywhere in the world as long as you have a link to them. Add to this that many magicians can pool their magical abilities (within limitations of course) and thus an organised "coven" of spellcasters can overcome some pretty powerful magical defences, or do some awesome stuff (Great Ghost Dance awesome, for instance). Even small groups can become more powerful than an high Grade initiate they couldn't hope to beat individually. This is the biggest advantage - you can accomplish some heavy juju if you think it all through carefully.

But speaking as a GM, it mainly falls down to one PC and several NPCs helping them out when they want to use Ritual Sorcery. More often than not, Ritual Sorcery is left entirely up to the NPC plot hooks side of things. About the only other practical individual PC usage of Ritual Sorcery that I have come across, is the astral tracking of a target. This is a potent game-winner solution if you have to find someone and especially helps out if say one of your team is kidnapped and you don't know by who or where they took them. Giving your group magician ritual sample of your characters can save their butts - if you can trust them that is. (One of my players surrepticiously collected such tissue samples from the mundanes whenever he was "healing" them up.)

So, as long as you have either A: a magical group to contribute to/with, B: a speciality in locating people/things or C: trusting teammates who hand over ritual samples your Ritual Sorcery skill has merit. Maybe not so often used as Spellcasting, but as with certain other "backup"skills when you need to use it and use it right, the results are usually productive.

Oh, and just as a recollection, I used to have a troll yakuza oyabun who had his own loyal magician use Ritual Sorcery on those who disrespected him (usually for being a troll). They used Turn to Tree and then Quickened the spell so that the target would become a bonzai tree which the oyabun then kept in his hothouse. Nothing like the it for intimidating runners waiting in that greenhouse whilst the troll conversed with his "charges" whilst pruning and watering them. The ultimate subtle "You will do what I want now, won't you?" meeting. Snip, spray, snip!

NOTE: A a query about 4th Ed - does it allow ritual casting of Combat category spells now? You couldn't do that in 1st -3rd, although some people tried to use elemental effect damaging spells like Fireball when they became Manipulation category in 3rd. (I still rule those as Combat category).

BTW, regarding Banishing too - in previous editions it used to temporarily reduce the Force of the spirit/Magic of the banisher until one reached zero and disrupted/passed out. The biggest difference between a spirit disposed of by Stunbolt (or astral combat) as compared to being Banished was that combat damage only disrupted the spirt and thus it could come back (usually within a lunar cycle minus it's Force days), whereas banishing permanently got rid of it for good.

Well, if you want to add some power back to it while keeping it useful, also make the rule that if Force is reduced to 0, then the banisher has the option to take the spirit as his own and doing so gains him 1/2 of the services the spirit had when he started banishing it.

hmm, i never recall such a limitation existed. maybe ill digg out my old books to make sure...

checked mits (SR3 bbb didnt have ritual sorcery in it), and it only had a limitation of no elemental manipulations.

so no problem for the caster to rain combat spells down on any target he could get a link to...

ah, SR2 had a limitation on combat spells.

I think the restriction on Combat spells has been lifted. So technically you could use ritual sorcery as a magical sniper weapon now.

edited it my finds checking SR3 and MITS, and also SR2...

I've seen characters ritual fireballed several times.

When I said available for all magic based skill tests I did mean all. Spend a complex action, resist some drain and give you magician buddy some extra dice. This is in addition to the standard uses of remotely nuking someone.