Hi all, just wanted to throw out a few questions to GMs or players who have dealt with some of these issues.

Guardian spirits: They have all sorts of combat skills (blades, clubs, exotic ranged, etc). Do any GM's have guardians appear with weapons already...such as a machete for a big bad combat oriented loa? If not, could the summoning mage just carry around a combat axe and always give the command to manifest and "use this axe to go kill everyone in that room." Also, if you do have guardians appear with weapons, could they also work on the astral? My general thrust in asking this question, is as a player, I want to be able to put those combat skills to use. My concern, though, is the weapons would add a lot of power and I feel it may be overbalanced....an extra +1 reach and Str + 3 damage on top of already formidable combat stats could be a bit much.

Beast spirits: Beast spirits by their stats do not have a fly or swim skill. However, a manifested dolphin or an eagle spirit would seem to logically be able to do these things. Are there any rules/errata/etc in any of the books that for beast spirits that would support this? Obviously as a GM, you can just decide these things, but as a player I am trying to find some sort of precedent regarding this to present to my GM.

Task Spirits: I am trying to find out how to really make the most of the skill you can imbue into task spirits. For example, could I summon a massive force 8 task spirit, give it first aid, and then have it heal the whole group with a ton of dice? I would just like to hear some creative uses that others have either used or seen.

guardian spirits are kinda sorta unofficially officially limited to possession traditions. that is, there's nothing explicit, but the only official traditions with guardian spirits are possession spirits.

the fly and swim skills don't allow you to fly or swim, they allow you to fly or swim faster. beast spirits can already float wherever they like, they just don't do it as well as an air spirit (that being said, i certainly wouldn't consider it unbalancing to make it an optional power for those spirits to have either fly or swim skill as appropriate)

Aren't Guardian spirits available to the Aztec tradition, which is not a possession tradition?

Emphasis mine.

Where do you get that from?

Street Magic, P.39: The Norse Tradition
Combat: Guardian
Detection: Water
Health: Fire
Illusion: Air
Manipulation: Beast
Drain: Willpower + Charisma

The entry mentions NOTHING about being a posession tradition...

Yeah, my zoroastrian is going to be shocked by that one... he loves to summon his guardian spirits.

Also the norse tradition mage is going to get really pissed at you as well.

(and my GM pretty much unofficially bans use of possession traditions).


Guardians: If you want them to appear w/ their own weapon... use the 'natural weaponry' optional power... it's a spirit it can materialize w/ the weapon in any form you like. (I'm fond of the dwarf w/ a battleaxe). DV==Force... so at force6-8 it's about the same as handing the thing a battleaxe anyhow (only it's magical, so no nasty ItNW to worry about).

The bigger use for that is to summon the spirit w/ automatics. Then hand it your assault rifle. How many dice is that thing rolling... lessee agility 9+6 dice... +1laser at force 6 IIRC (forget whether it's +2 or +3 agi).

Beast: up to GM... but I'd say no. Spirits of water can also appear as dolphins and the like, and they need some loving.

Task: Think of it as... skill on the fly.... wow who used an actual deadbolt lock in this day and age? Task spirit w/ lockpicking to the rescue. Or another... demolitions... send him in to defuse that bomb. First aid again good, though be prepared for monstrous drain when you least need it in that case (it will happen). Another use... task spirit to aid your mechanic (or replace him). Task has some of the most room for absolute abuse in the game.

Um, that brings up a question: if spirits are ALWAYS dual-natured, even on the Material Plane, that means they can't read a manual (paper or otherwise), can't see a touchscreen to manipulate, and can't read the print on a circuit board and wiring, and can't discern the color of an LED. Wouldn't that affect their ability to do things like bypass a maglock?

Thanks for the idea, BTW. Kerenshara's got an ad-hoc tradition due to her virtually non-existent initial training, and once she buys off the "Aspected: Sorcery" negative quality, Task is one of her spirit types (I picked them for how she views the world, magically speaking. And before anybody asks, despite being an elf, I chose Intuition as the drain stat because she's figuring most of this out as she goes along.)

Dual natured does NOT mean blind (look at ghouls w/ cybereyes, or many dual natured beasts). Task spirits have low-light and thermographic vision available as optional powers at that.


And to not try and hijack. That's exactly why I dislike making your own tradition. It's near the epitomy of munchkinism, ESPEICALLY the ad hoc nature of it. Too easy to pick and choose the best of the best and ignore all the suck spirit types, as well as pick and choose the best drain attributes and such. Mages are pretty karma screwed and all... but they have some reasonably strong advantages, and should be happy to take the disadvantages which come with them.

If it was me, You wouldn't KNOW your tradition, but you should have one. It's not a matter of make up on the fly, it's a matter of you haven't been schooled, and don't know your own extents. If you wanted task spirits... then you'd pay heavily as they're pretty damn usefull in noncombat (and you have 4 others which can already kickass in combat, or provide other benefits such as stealth/influence). All the traditions which have task spirits have some drawbacks associated with them (they're all possession traditions IIRC which goes a long way towards limiting task spirit abuse).

Even w/o it, you're quite capable of being pretty damn effective. (example... tonight... mag6, 4spellcasting, +4aid sorcery, -2 sustain... edged for 9 hits on a force9 stunball. I utterly hate doing stuff like that... but it was necessary for survival (2 other chars unconcious, only other down to 2 boxes of stun... and me concealed in the back w/ a good stealth roll and about to get the royal gang bang treatment or near TPK if I didn't enter munchkin territory).


EH44:
Small catch there... all book traditions w/ task are possession traditions (one cha, one int, and one log as best I can tell. hedge, voodoo, & qabbal). Summoning the spirit means finding a vessel for it... making it much harder to do on the fly. Summoning it to astral, then ordering it to posses yourself to do something has some obvious limitations if the entire group is badly in need of first aid for example.

I recommend keeping a Body Armor Bag (Arsenal, page 48) with a good level of Nonconductivity and holding an automatic firearm of some sort as a 'loaner set' for a materialized Guardian spirit. No one expects a spirit to pack serious heat and to have extra dice against SnS.

Care to delineate which ones are the "suck spirits"? I've heard equivalent phrasing tossed about willy-nilly in the past, but have yet to hear a good explanation for which spirits are supposedly lacking and why...

No. Possession spirits need a vessel to manifest in physical space. They can be summoned and can operate in astral space without a vessel.

Off hand the only 2 I can think of that are desernably "weak" are fire and water spirits. Their respective allergies and their (usually) rather obvious nature give them a rather glaring weakness. Then again not many runners I've delt with actually tote around flame throwers and water hoses "just in case" - setting off the fire alarm/ sprinkler system in desperation on the other hand... I suspect the argument against the customisation/ ditching spirits that suck may be more along the lines:
"I can take a group of spirits that covers ALL the powers, or all the ones anyone cares about - And make sure I take the spirits best at their respective tricks".
IE: You only need "inate spell" on one type of spirit and if I recall correctly earth elementals are particularly horrifying at Engulf for instance. Aiming to the future you could also score the craziest "Great form" powers - regeneration, storm (I am partucularly fond of fire for this)... blanking on the rest of the uber cool ones... you perhaps get the idea? I've never run into this in the past and probably wouldn't notice unless the player pointed it out to me. All of the Spirits are pretty darn good, but careful planing along these lines can leave you with the bases better covered (often with fire)

I don't think you got the point of my question. I am asking if the rules for Astral Perception, Manifesting and Materialization. If a Manifesting spirit is dual natured, and considered to be Astrally Perceiving, that would mean by a simple reading of the rules that they can NOT perceive AR, or any form of technological display. I said nothing about their being blind. I still am not certain if I have that particular impression correct, however, which is why I brought it up.


You "dislike" making your own tradition, but the BBB has a whole section dedicated to doing so. Here is the fluff that is uses to describe them:

SR4A, P180: Traditions
Magic is a very personal and often-debated subject. There are a multitude of belief systems and methods of working magic practiced across the world. These differing magic worldview paradigms are called traditions. While there are some predominant schools of magical thought, each magician finds her own means of practicing magic, typically following whatever path she was taught when she first Awakened. This path can come from a metahuman teacher, a mentor spirit, a collection of writings such as those found in universities, or it can be created out of whole cloth by a self-taught individual (though most of these who survive are lucky rather than great).
While discovering and exploring a tradition can take an entire lifetime for a character, in game terms the creation of a tradition is far simpler. Two examples of the most commonly followed traditions—hermetic and shamanic—are provided here for use by players who do not wish to create their own.

Emphasis mine.

Perhaps it WOULD be too easy to pick "the best" drain stat, or to try to min-max the spirits. But as I said, Kerenshara is an ELF, meaning that the MUNCHY thing to do would have been to choose CHA. I didn't, expressly because they are working magic INTUITIVELY. The spirits she will be able to summon (once she takes the skill and buys off the "aspected" negative quality) reflect how she perceives magic. If you think the spirits I choose are "Munchkinism", you're entitled to your own opinion, but I actually sat down with the categories and reasoned out what type of spirit would make the most sense based on her Mentor Spirit, and her own nature.

Your statement that I should have a tradition but just not know it reflects your own views, and those views in this case blatantly contradict the RAW and primary supporting fluff; Traditions themselves are rigid and defined by 2070, but Magic itself is almost infinitely diverse. This isn't amnesia where you can't see your character sheet; This is exploration of something new that you are effectively developing as you go along in-character. Yes, the PLAYER would know and understand what they're doing, but the character is opening up new avenues and approaches. I already have many disadvantages inherent to this character which I accept and play fully, both magical and mundane.

I know there are a lot of people who might choose to go for the Crunch & Munch on designing a tradition, but let's face it: outlook shapes magic in the 6^th World. If your character is mentally and emotionally focused on a single goal, then it makes sense that their magic would accordingly mold itself to that same purpose.

Up front... IMO suck spirits...
Beast & Water (situational), with earth and fire following up. Earth basically just takes a second seat to plant spirits or guardian spirits when it comes to taking/giving a pounding. Fire and air are the two fliers, and air tends to be the better of the two. Though fire are pretty buff in melee combat due to their elemental aura (flameshield... you hit me you take damage, I hit you I do bonus damage!).

It's actually a little harder subject because generally if you're out to powergame it if you will... you want one spirit for it's bruising qualtiies, another for it's utility powers, potentially for their great form powers as well.


Okay to address points one by one.

It's pointless to give spirits low-light vision as an optional power under your reading Karenshara. If they can never use it becuase dual natured must always percieve and can't use any other senses. That's why I brought up ghouls... ghouls are always astrally percieving, but they can see normally at the same time w/ cyberware (optional power if you will). In much the same way as a troll can see 'normally' w/ a thermal overlay at the same time. So call it an 'astral overlay' transparency if you wish. That's how I view it's use.



There's a misunderstanding here. Making any tradition should involve the GM heavily, not just a player saying oh cool... I like this, let me add it to my sheet now. My point is, that the GM should have determined the tradition w/ player feedback (even if custom) when you bought the mystic adept quality. It should have been an integral part of chargen.

The reason your comment rubbed me the wrong way, is because I've watched you rail against skillwires in the past. But in a way that's exactly what task spirits are. Skillwires on the fly, w/ no essence cost, and no cost to buy or keep SOTA. And that's a HUGE thing for a mystic adept (as you're quite aware, as there's never enough karma to go around for skills, magic, initiations, spells, and equipment). If I was a GM, and I saw your initial comment, I'd balk.

I posted on how potentially abusive task spirits can be, followed by "I really should add them to my EXISTING CHARACTER (who should already have her tradition down) raises the guard hairs. Why... because it's skillwires on the fly. (not quite apt... but to a possession tradition, that's more or less what they end up being... skillwires).


The final comment about magic is better aimed at playing Mage, where one of the subtexts is the entire fight over the nature of reality and the acceptance of magic in it. I don't really subscribe to that view in shadowrun, where it's more a case of magic is coming back... what the hell do we do now that we're along for the ride and things are spiraling out of control as the old orders shatter, recoalesce, and something new emerges from the fragments.

Perhaps, but like I said: I picked them for the way they fit into the five categories, not what they do. And I DID say I chose a "disadvantageous" drain stat because it fit: LOG can be boosted with 'ware cheaply (I already knew I would have some ESS/MAG loss, so it would have made sense) or go with CHA for being an elf.


Hmmm, I was thinking it worked like that, but (after debates with you and Mr. Jaid in other threads) I went back and started re-reading the SR4/SR4A info again and wondered if I was reading it right, or if it was a change/clarification, or if I had been doing things wrong all these years (prior editions).

As to the overlay with cyberware, I have seen too much fiction to believe you could run both low-light and thermal simultaneously, but my jury's still out on that.


If "each magician finds her own means of practicing magic", I see no reason for a player to need to "ask" the GM anything, other than an up-down vote on what I designed (which I got). I think you have it backwards. If I wanted to play something the GM made for me, I would use a stock character out of the book. As for "as I go along" I am referring to when my CHARACTER finds out: the actual Crunchy BitsTM were worked out long before the first session. It's not like I am adding lines as we go.


I think I see your comparison there, but you're assuming they HAVE to be posessing me to work (thus the 'wires reference if I read you correctly), but NOTHING expressly says they have to do so. And as a GM, you can balk, but if you don't ask me exactly what I had in mind and reject the idea based on a conversation without details, I wouldn't come back. I'm supposed to respect you (the GM) on plot points, story hooks, behind-the-scenes events and so forth; the least a GM can do is ask me exactly WHAT I am planning to do, HOW I plan to do it, and most importantly: WHY am I doing it before they decide to reject an idea. And as to cost vs. skillwires, it's a serious pain in the hoop to have to re-summon that spirit day in and day out (sundown and sunrise), or I have to pay to bind them and go through THAT nonsense. And my "railing" against skillwires was specifically in reference to their place in the military and a "chipped" work force in the corporate world (where I seem to remember saying they made plenty of sense), not against the 'ware generally.


OK, this point I can see better, if that's what you were specifically replying to. Yes, CHANGING a tradition after you have set it (in stone) is a bit much, but there IS metamagic (IIRC) or a quality that can add one more type of spirit (per purchase of the power/quality) to your normal five. And in a posession tradition, I can see it being like 'wires, but that also depends on how the GM handles the posession aspect(s). Depending on the tradition, would your character really WANT to be inhabited that long?


OK, you totally lost me here; I have to get you to actually spell this argument out for me.

Yes I don't know the particulars of your situation. I told you the reason why what you did rubbed me wrong... point out abuse... wow I need those spirits added to my existing char... uhhh did you just read what I wrote telling GM's what to watch out for....

But no, there is no metamagic to give you access to additional spirit types after you've picked a tradition. You ONLY get your basic fice when you chose the magician/mystic adept quality. The only thing close, is their is one metamagic which allows you to craft an ALLY spirit (which is a totally different beast than normal spirits). And those are an entire thread in their own right. (and the karma cost to bind an ally spirit is obscene... let alone to improve it as time goes on!).

The only way to get spirits which aren't part of your tradition are to banish them, summon the just banished spirit, then bind it later. There is no metamagic involved.

Just as a sidenote... I've NEVER seen a GM just allow a player to make up a tradition willy nilly then give it an up/down. IME most restrict to book only to avoid opening the pandora's box. Failing that, they make the process highly collaborative and want a hand in crafting the tradition.



On the last... you'll just have to look up Mage: The Awakening. It's part of the world of darkness setting along w/ vampire (I generally hate WOD... but too many white wolf fanatics to completely avoid it; and mage was the only part of it I found interesting in the least). But you have two generalized 'factions' made up of numerous subfaction 'traditions' fighting over the fundamental shape and nature of the world. You have the 'evil' technocracy (I love those guys)... against IIRC "The traditions" (things like traditional magicans, druids, etc... 'old magic' if you will). One of the aspects of using magic is paradox. Magic isn't well believed in the world... which means the whole fight is very subtle and not well understood... casting a fireball where mundanes can see it will cause you a lot of paradox, and reality will rebound upon you. But the basis of the setting, is peoples perceptions form the basis of reality. EG: cast the fireball where people accept that it can and will occur (such as during a hollywood light and 'magic' show. And people will accept it, and you won't get paradox. So from that aspect, the two traditions break down into one which tries to make things more artsy and magic is real.. (the traditions) vs. those who take an approach of any technology sufficiently advanced is indistinguishable from magic (technocracy).

The two paradigms being unreconcilable for whatever reasons....

But that is fundamentally a fight over the nature and expression of magic in the world. In shadowrun, it's more a matter of, magic just is... reading some of the old earthdawn stuff from the dragons about raw vs. crafted magic makes this quite evident. A dragon doesn't cast a spell, just thinks of the effect he wants and manipulates the raw magical energy. A younger race can't do this, he needs to craft a matrix to apply the energies to the same effect.

I went and double checked. I KNOW I saw something somewhere about adding a spirit type, but I haven't been able to find it. If you can't add it after game start, then I would support nixing the idea same as you.


I have (usually somebody else's - for most characters I would play something stock), and the GMs always want the story behind it. (Why do you use the phrase "willy nilly"? That presumes a lot about the player's attitude and mindset, don't you think?) Why would you want "a hand in crafting the tradition" any more than you had a hand in creating the rest of the character? Isn't GM involvement in character creation (for experienced players) supposed to be primarily limited to approving things like "Restricted Gear" and giving an up/down on the rest of the numbers? And it's not like we're discussing a home rule or something out of sidebar here - that's printed before the listing of the two most prevalent traditions in the 6^th World.


OK, I understand your comparitive reference now, but what was the comparison/contrast you were trying for?

you're thinking of technomancers with their sprites. there is an echo that allows a new sprite type.


i completely disagree. the GM should be as involved in every character's character generation as possible. this means that the GM has a better understanding of the character, their abilities, why you made the choices you did, and so on. as a side benefit, the GM can also likely detect instances of people who are making completely nonsensical character backgrounds to justify the combination of abilities, gear, etc, that they have.

the second use is not necessarily a bad thing at all, and experience has nothing to do with it. there are people who play for 20 years and use their experience to exploit the loopholes, and there are people who play for the first time and just go with what fits the concept without regard for optimisation. far more important, however, is the first one. it means that the GM can make sure you fit into his game, and that his game fits you. it can clear up issues before they even start. it can bring to mind house rules that the GM may not have thought to mention, and the GM can give advice specific to his/her campaign (some campaigns will make major use of shadowing skill, some won't, for example. it may even be almost a required skill in some campaigns, and in other campaigns the GM will completely ignore the skill. these are all pitfalls that can be easily avoided if the GM is involved in chargen). another example would be someone that you think is a demolitions expert (good demolition and chemistry skills, chemistry set) and the GM not noticing those two skills, or thinking they're more intended to be your secondary skillset and trying to tailor the game to you, but missing the mark. the more involved the GM is, the more he/she knows your character's abilities and how you see your character. now certainly, the GM should not have power to tell you what character you're playing, but wouldn't you rather find out at chargen that he/she doesn't handle a particular skill the way you think it should be? isn't that better than finding out after you try to execute your master plan, only to discover it won't work in the game you're in for one reason or another?

Ah! THAT's probably it then. Thank you. That would explain why I'm so certain I saw SOMETHING but can't find the thing.


Well, I can't think of too many (half-decent) GMs who didn't ask general questions at the begining to see how the party was shaping up, and would be able to use that general information to start offering a little guidance. To me, that's not the same as a GM wanting to see your numbers at any of a dozen points prior to completion. Presumably, a person wanting to gin up their own magical "tradition" would be wise to put the tradition's basic parameters in front of the GM as soon as they got it finalized in their own mind; That's not the same thing as the GM asking generally what you had in mind and making the stats up FOR you. If the GM feels you're not being tru to your "vision" they can either offer suggestions to adjust the idea or the Crunchy Bits^TM, or they can flat reject the idea (and give some good reasons to the player). The GM ALWAYS has the right to reject, but if they stretch that to tweaking and changing the player's desires into what THEY think they should have or not have, that's no longer the player's character. Suggest, point out weaknesses and present alternate ideas, but in the end, it's either their character, or you reject it.

As to "missing it", the GM should be thorough in their evaluation of both the background and the final numbers - I don't know how they would miss something like high levels of skills in something like demolitions. For that matter, they should be on the lookout for significant problems that need work as well (like omitting a lifestyle, or a comlink, or not taking a skill that is vital to your way of running). There is involvement, then there's micromanagement. It's a fine line to walk, but crossing it can be as damaging as failing to try entirely.

....

you do realise you basically just said that the GM should be involved in the character creation process all the way from the concept level to the finished product, right?

which is basically exactly what i said...

*nods*

What YOU said was involvement, but I was referring to the post before yours and being inclusive. The earlier post seemed to be talking about crossing the line into micromanagment and changing the numbers to match the GM's whim, not the player's idea. And the involvement I was espousing was a general idea/concept evaluation, then final approval of the player's numbers (Tradition and "unusual" elements like the "Restricted Gear" quality needing earlier approval, obviously) when complete. It's a subtle but distinct and important diference. I'm sure you can see my point.

Just because other types of spirits don't have the Flight skill doesn't mean they can't fly.

S/he's right. BBB, pg 177:

"Materialized physical forms are not subject to gravity, though most spirits (except air spirits) stay earthbound or close to it (perhaps floating or hovering)."

Dual Nature means the entity has all the benefits of Astral Perception without the drawbacks.

Thus they can perceive the Physical without issue or penalty while perceiving the Astral without issue or penalty.

You may also be thinking of the Runner's Companion Spoof that was done for April Fools a while back. The dragon section mentioned learning how to summon possession spirits via a metamagic.