In earlier versions of Shadowrun there were quite comprehensive focus addiction rules. Do these still exist in Shadowrun 4.

I know you can get the negative quality, but I haven't found any references to how you might acquire focus addiction if you don't select that quality.

Thanks

No. As with most things in SR4 the GM is supposed to Magical Tea Party it. So you might have a very lenient GM and never have to worry or you might have a hardliner who makes you burnout because of your Force 1 Sustaining Focus.

Edit: To be more useful I'd treat the focus as the equivalent of some drug. I'd tend to go with narcotics if I had to pick one in general but it might be cool to vary them based on the "flavour" of the focus. So a Power focus would be the equivalent of the most hardcore drugs (can't remember what tops the tables) whereas a Sustaining Focus could be equal to an Opiate.

Heh, little more concrete than I remembered it. Semi-magical tea party then.

I think it'd be nice if both Substance and Foci abuse rules had been fleshed out a bit more. As a player, I hesitate to use drugs without knowing how risky they are - and therefore part of the game design isn't actually used.

Foci on the other hand, are dearly paid for. Karma and both, so you do want to use them when you have them. As a mage, you feel you've a right to because it wasn't cheap. On the other hand, permanent christmas tree magi are a bad thing too.

Well, what I find interesting is that Focus Addiction only comes into play when you use more foci than you can safely handle.

What exactly does that mean? You are are limited to Magic*5 Force in Foci, so your typical Runner magician can bond with anywhere from 25-30 force worth of Foci. That is allot of foci.

The max you can have active at one time is equal to Logic. If the magician has magic 6 & logic 6, he could have all of his bound foci active at once, but the question is still "At what point does this become dangerous?"

"Total Force of active foci in excess of twice their Magic attribute." So, with a Magic Attribute of 5, using a Power Focus (3) and two Sustaining Foci(4) exceed the limit of (10), and a Test is called for.

It seems to me that this optional rule has been put in place to allow GMs to curb the consequences of a mistake on their part (allowing the player to have a powerful foci that negatively affects game balance).

Well, obviously. Mages are more unbalanced the fewer balancing rules you use (optional or otherwise). As always, it comes down to the GM-player relationship: if the player is making extensive use of powerful foci, it might be appropriate (for balance, for drama, for whatever) to use some kind of addiction.

It was intended to be a limit to the use of lots of foci. The idea was that handling all that much power all the time would have some sort of downside. I can get behind that idea. As a player you're allowed to stock up on Foci if you're good enough to get them, but knowing how much to use is a separate type of wisdom.

Am I correct in the following summary:

You only need to roll Willpower + logic with a threshold of 2. This only needs 8 die (barring minus's) to guarantee sucess. If you have a lot of active foci, you have a lot of logic...so I think this this situation is only going to occur when you are badly wounded, and cast spells using foci, reducing your willpower + logic below 8.

Well, the GM never has to allow buying hits (IIRC), but my personal answer is that there's the *concept* of Focus addiction, and then there's the *suggested rules* for it. The concept is the important bit, and if the suggested rules don't achieve the goal, change them.

Are you assuming hermetics, btw?

I think the important thing is to not punish the character for using foci, only abusing them. Magicians use foci all the time, and the majority have no addiction. The Force >= 2xMagic is a good rule, but tests should also be called when a character keeps a foci active for an extended period, many hours at a time, especially when it is not needed(for example the mage keeping increased reflexes on 24/7.

Especially that one.

I dont really see how thats such a big deal, I mean when you get right down to it a spirit of man is better than any sustaining focus. The spirit doesn't even need to be present to sustain it after casting it, and if the GM rules that It does need to be present you can give it a material link to ritual cast it on you and maintain that.

The Spirit of Man also requires no Karma to bond and only costs a fraction of the sustaining focus cost. I believe it can last for a month off of one extended service right?

For those who think that mages should be making checks for having a sustaining focus on for 24/7 without breaking the 2*Magic limit I have a question for you: how often do you make hackers/TMs roll for Hot VR addiction when they are on the matrix almost every waking moment?

SR4A p. 187, sustaining a spell for (Force) combat turns uses up one service of a bound spirit, or it can be sustained for (Force) days by using up all of it's remaining services and loosing 1 point of Force per day (and using this tactic frequently is likely to make your work with spirits more problematic).

That is completely different though. Not only is it a measly difference (just +2 dice, no more then a smartgun for a gunbunny) but technomancers can only be in Hot sim so obviously their brains are wired for it. Only the most die hard hackers are in Hot sim 24/7 and I have yet to see it happen once. That is no where near the issue of a mage walking around, lit up on the astral for everyone to see, because he doesn't want to drop his IP bonuses.

You know, I can just see a sleazy Taslimonger on the streets now, with a huge and bulky trenchcoat, telling new Mages and Shamans that "The first taste is free..." as they start down the road with a single point of Magic...

I'm using that, it's too good not to.

I wasn't talking about having the spirit of man sustain your spell for you, I was talking about having the spirit of man cast the spell itself, on you, and sustain it, indefinitely, with no force loss, ever.

These two posts demonstrate my mixed views of addiction within Shadowrun. On one hand we've got a potentially scary reason that ties into roleplaying as to why to avoid drugs. This can take some of the element of metagaming out. Yet on the other hand, I too have had to have discussions with players about where foci addiction comes into play. So far though, we've not had to put any rules into place and we seem to be doing fine.

Now, if I did have to come up with a rule for foci addiction and tests I would agree with (Total Foci Force)>= 2xMagic. I can tell you that I would never allow players to simply buy hits for this test though. However, to the other point of extended foci duration, there are two parts to that I think you'd need to spell out. The first is how long of a duration is dangerous. The second is how long of a downtime do you need before you can do it again.

I have an easier time coming up with a simple for the maximum length a specific foci can be used before there is a risk of addiction:

(Force of that specific Foci) x (Magic Attribute) in hours.

Using the Increased Reflexes example, most mages will have a rating 3 or 4 sustaining foci for it. Considering a magic of 5 or 6 you wind up basically having to recast the spell somewhere around once per day, and risk exposing yourself to that drain. Similarly, a powerful Power Foci, say rating 5 and magic 6, would mean that after 30 hours on consecutive use addiction starts to become a risk.

Of course, the concept of addiction is totally avoided if you just have a rule for how long you can use it without a break but you don't specify a break duration. Again, using the increased reflexes example, just making a character recast the spell once a day to deal with drain but avoid addiction would still leave a character with a foci they can become very attached to having on basically all the time.

Now, a simple formula for how long the break should be is something that I'm having a harder time with. Right now the best I've got is something like:

(Maximum Safe hours as figured above) - (Willpower Attribute) - (Magic Attribute) - (Unused Safe Hours) = downtime, with a minimum of (Force of Foci) hours.

Using the Power Foci example listed above, activated for 20 hours, it would look like this:

30 (Maximum Safe hours) - 5 (Willpower Attribute) - 6 (Magic Attribute) - 5 (Unused Safe Hours) = 14 hours downtime before risking addiction. Given the power of a rating 5 Power Focus, if I had to make hard rules for foci addiction, this doesn't seem too harsh.

Similarly, lets look at a Magic 5, Willpower 5 mage using a Force 4 sustaining foci for Increased reflexes over a few different periods:

20 Hours: 20 - 5 - 5 - 0 = 10 hours downtime.
16 Hours: 20 - 5 - 5 - 4 = 6 Hours downtime (or some sleep)
12 Hours: 20 - 5 - 5 - 8 = 2, but Foce of Foci is 4 so 4 Hours downtime.
24 Hours: 20 - 5 - 5 + 4 = 14 hours downtime.
36 Hours: 20 - 5 - 5 + 16 = 26 hours of downtime.

Here you can see that if you used these systems a character would run a serious risk if they left a foci on for too long because they'd have to make a check then, and if they needed the foci again fairly soon they'd again have to make a check. This can create a slippery slope that could represent addiction. Even if the threshold is lower as another poster mentioned, there are times when dice will abandon you, and eventually even Edge runs out.

These were just off the top of my head, as I said I've not had to create hard rules for this with my group. I'd love to see what others think.

The problem I see with that rule is that you punish someone for having a low powered focus more than a high powered one. Force * magic lends itself to actually helping a high powered focus, which in my opinion should cause addiction faster, as it would give a higher safe time, if I read your post correctly.

This is the spirit using one of it's power (in that case Innate Spell) on you - thus it use up 1 service per casting, and IMHO last only until next sunrise/sunset, so two services per 24 h (unless you're close enough to the pole), exactly like asking him to use Concealment or Movement.

Binding a spirit does not mean you can use it's services forever, it means you can wait forever before asking it to do something.

About the proposed rules :
while detailed and wll thought out, they seem a bit generous for high-power focuses). I'd suggest making the safe time something like (Magic - Force)xMagic rather than ForcexMagic. This way more powerful focuses have a shorter time limit.

Maybe when you talk about Summoned Spirits.



Bound spirits however do not have that limitation.

The rules are rather ambiguous about this kind of stuff.

For exemple say a mage binds a Fire spirit with three services, the order him to stand watch over his lodge and attack any unauthorized peoples trying to enter.

Monday, Bob try to break in, the spirit shows up and fry him. Two days later, Sam try his luck and is attacked too. One week later, a third idiot goes in and the spirit again does his anti-theft routine. That's three, is the spirit now free (three intrusions repelled), or does it still owes two services because it is still doing the single extended task the mage assigned him, protect the lodge ?

Another exemple : a mage wants to travel from New-York to Seattle on foot. Not wishing to takes too much time, he asks a spirit to use it's Movement power on him. If the spirit is bound, could he ask it to keep the power up until he reaches Seattle as a single service for the whole travel ?

I'm not confortable with allowing the unlimited use of a spirit's power if bound, as this seems pretty cheap and overpowered - and it would make things like Quickening or Long Term Binding worthless.

The much-reviled FAQ addresses this issue, in a way that is contrary to one of it's purported flaws, that is to say its alleged tendency to gimp mages.



So it would appear the command to 'kill all unauthorized people who enter' would be one service forever for a bound spirit, as long as the magician doesn't issue another command.

Many GMs ignore this and say one service is used up every period between sunset and sunrise, or sunrise and sunset.

To clarify things a bit, having a spirit perform its service indefinitely isn't necessarily the root of evil in this situation. Its more likely that spirits of man are the weak link.

That may be the case. However, the above ruling counteracts one of the dangers of Summoning/Binding, namely the statistical likelihood that sooner or later, continued Conjuring of high Force Spirits will get you with deadly Drain. In roulette, your best chance to make it big is to bet all you have on one shot. Just so in this case, as all you have to do is survive that killer spirit once, and you have it forever... for one task. But that one task can be a powerful one.

Possession spirits were weakened in the FAQ by having their bonus to physical stats explicitly limited to the augmented maximum of the metahuman vessel. A 'forever' duration for the possession, however, mitigates that limitation. Sure, your physical stats are only at 9, but they are there forever, along with ItNW. This is a far more egregious manipulation of magic than using foci for long periods.

While I am a proponent of Possession being a relatively balanced aspect of magic, I am so because I believe limitations are built into magic that keep it balanced if they are applied. One such limitation, in my view, is the sunrise-sunset / sunset-sunrise duration of services, even for bound spirits.

A simple fix would be to require a Long Term Binding. Cost is Spirits Force = Karma, and it'll serve for a year and a day.

Do not forget Long Term Services thgouth Binding... A Year and a Day...

Edit: Apparently already covered on more than one post... Ooops...

To me, there is a bit of a logical disconnect in the binding rules. If you can use normal binding to compel a spirit to perform a service indefinitely, then what, exactly, is the point of long-term binding? The only advantage that I see to it is that it doesn't count against your limit of bound spirits, which is a measly advantage for something that costs karma.

A measly advantage for a runner, for a business/corporation? Its nice.