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PresentPresence
The different Martial Arts maneuvers presented in Arsenal can have some great synergy together. I have been experimenting with different gear and arts builds that take advantage of these combinations to be devastating in close combat. I'll assume attributes and skill ratings of 5, but dedicated builds would probably have at least 6~7 for each. I am also not counting additional modifiers like specializations and tacnets (but you should get them).
Weapons-wise, there are three branches: Dual Melee, Dual Guns, and Pirate Style. Dual Melee can take advantage of things like the Counterstrike adept power and only has to focus on a single skill. Dual Guns can be effective at any range and can deal much more damage (potentially), but requires Ambidexterity, not just Offhand Training, to be effective and forces you to diverge your skills. Pirate Style, wielding a gun in your primary hand and a melee weapon in your offhand, is a blend of the two. You could also wield a two-handed weapon or a single weapon in both hands if you really wanted to, of course, but that's not the point of these builds.

Feelin' Lucky
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Feelin' Lucky Pirate
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HV Pirate
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HV Maniac (Wishful Thinking; Attacker Using Second Firearm can only be a Simple Action, so no Full Bursts)
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Infiltrator
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Infiltrator Pirate
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That's just a few of the options available to Dual Guns and Pirate Style users. As you can see, the dice pools can become a little strained, but there are plenty of ways to optimize and get modifiers for these tests. Look into "unorthodox" things like Synch or Swift and Terrible for some more useful bonuses.
Udoshi
There's a few interesting things you can do when you throw magic into the mix.

Samurai Spirit
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The Nerve Strike Adept
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Interception-Trolling
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Group Beatdown Man
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Crouching Tiger, Hidden Uzi
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Throw is more useful than you think: Sidestep throw and counter-charge
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Yerameyahu
Ha! I think 'take advantage of' is exactly the right description here, but I'll bet you had fun assembling these. biggrin.gif
ggodo
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Oct 20 2011, 07:00 PM) *
Ha! I think 'take advantage of' is exactly the right description here, but I'll bet you had fun assembling these. biggrin.gif

We martial arts fans have to succeed somehow.
Caadium
Unless I'm reading something wrong, there is a slight problem with the Interception-Trolling idea. Specifically, the end where you discuss using a Full Defense tactic because Counterstrike can no longer be used when you do that.
Udoshi
Nice catch.

however, full parry still works
PresentPresence
Those are some awesome builds, Udoshi. Nerve Strike adept in particular is nice because you don't need Strength for a takedown and requires no weapons. Great for all infiltrator adepts. Crouching Tiger, Hidden Uzi is a good addition to any pirate style user who are interested in fighting multiple opponents.
Makki
Art: Arnis de Mano
Maneuver: Two Weapon Style, optionally: Off-Hand Training, Riposte
Weapon: Dual Sai
Tactics: If the sai-wielding character successfully uses Full parry to block an attack (see p. 151, SR4), on his next melee attack he may use the Called Shots rule to disarm his opponent (p. 150, SR4) without receiving the –4 modifier.. So with the maneuver you are always on full defense. Whenever you block and you most likely do, you can then disarm AND hurt the attacker.

get crazy with an Adept with improved ability, counterstrike and weapon foci.
PresentPresence
The sai create an interesting alternative. Basically, you can use Two Weapon style to parry and attack, and then use Finishing Move to disarm and damage the opponent without the modifier. This is also one instance where Multi-Strike could be useful. However, the sai suffer from being an Exotic Weapon and therefore lose out on some potential modifiers. Melee hardening is simply cheaper and easier than getting an underbarrel weapon, but a sai-gun would look pretty sweet.
The thing about weapon foci is that they do not apply to defense tests (can be house ruled) and cannot be dual-wielded (or at least cannot combine their modifiers - also can be house ruled).

Also bonus points for Elektra.
Caadium
QUOTE (Makki @ Oct 21 2011, 11:02 PM) *
Art: Arnis de Mano
Maneuver: Two Weapon Style, optionally: Off-Hand Training, Riposte
Weapon: Dual Sai
Tactics: If the sai-wielding character successfully uses Full parry to block an attack (see p. 151, SR4), on his next melee attack he may use the Called Shots rule to disarm his opponent (p. 150, SR4) without receiving the –4 modifier.. So with the maneuver you are always on full defense. Whenever you block and you most likely do, you can then disarm AND hurt the attacker.

get crazy with an Adept with improved ability, counterstrike and weapon foci.


For this to work, you only need a Sai in the off-hand. Your main hand can be any other weapon that fits the criteria of "Two Weapon Style".
Udoshi
QUOTE (Caadium @ Oct 22 2011, 12:57 AM) *
Your main hand can be any other weapon that fits the criteria of "Two Weapon Style".


its worth noting that Unarmed Combat fits the criteria for Two Weapon Style, per the listing of Melee Weapons on Anniversary Edition 158, Unarmed is a Weapon with Reach 0. (see the example text, - means 0).
Other weapons with their own Weapon Table entry also work, for example, the Shock Hand implant.

Pirate style doesn't have to be sword and gun. Gun and Unarmed works just fine as well - and may be advantageous to do so over an actual melee weapon if, say, you're an unarmed strike adept.
PresentPresence
QUOTE (Caadium @ Oct 22 2011, 01:57 AM) *
For this to work, you only need a Sai in the off-hand. Your main hand can be any other weapon that fits the criteria of "Two Weapon Style".

Yes, but because sai are an Exotic Weapon, you would have to diverge your skills.

QUOTE (Udoshi @ Oct 22 2011, 03:00 AM) *
its worth noting that Unarmed Combat fits the criteria for Two Weapon Style, per the listing of Melee Weapons on Anniversary Edition 158, Unarmed is a Weapon with Reach 0. (see the example text, - means 0).
Other weapons with their own Weapon Table entry also work, for example, the Shock Hand implant.

Pirate style doesn't have to be sword and gun. Gun and Unarmed works just fine as well - and may be advantageous to do so over an actual melee weapon if, say, you're an unarmed strike adept.

This is where the rules start to get wonky, but I will say that things like shock hands and hardliner gloves do not qualify as melee weapons for the purpose of Parry, and therefore Riposte. It's also another scenario where you would have to diverge your skills.

Optimally, you want a single Close Combat skill, and possibly a single Firearms skills (Automatics is best, but the irony of hitting somebody in the head with a grenade launcher might be worth it).
Udoshi
QUOTE (PresentPresence @ Oct 22 2011, 04:06 AM) *
This is where the rules start to get wonky, but I will say that things like shock hands and hardliner gloves do not qualify as melee weapons for the purpose of Parry, and therefore Riposte. It's also another scenario where you would have to diverge your skills.

Pish-posh.

Not true. Riposte triggers on parries or Blocks. Blocks use unarmed combat skill. You can riposte with your hands just fine. You can even do so on a full defense: Passive defense of Reaction+Unarmed(block) + Full Dodge or Full Gymdodge.(This setup is actually superior, because you are still Blocking, but also can use your full defense against ranged attacks, which parry doesn't let you do) They are rare, but Weapons that use your Unarmed Skill DO exist. Its not Riposte that matters, its being able to claim the two-weapon style benefit without arming yourself, as they meet the for that maneuver criteria: a weapon with reach one or zero.
PresentPresence
QUOTE (Udoshi @ Oct 22 2011, 12:00 PM) *
Pish-posh.

Not true. Riposte triggers on parries or Blocks. Blocks use unarmed combat skill. You can riposte with your hands just fine. You can even do so on a full defense: Passive defense of Reaction+Unarmed(block) + Full Dodge or Full Gymdodge.(This setup is actually superior, because you are still Blocking, but also can use your full defense against ranged attacks, which parry doesn't let you do) They are rare, but Weapons that use your Unarmed Skill DO exist. Its not Riposte that matters, its being able to claim the two-weapon style benefit without arming yourself, as they meet the for that maneuver criteria: a weapon with reach one or zero.


Thank you for reminding me of that. I'm not sure how you're combining full defense and passive defense like that, though. Unarmed+Gun is still inefficient because Two-Weapon style means blocking with one hand and striking with the other. With a gun, you can only apply Clubs or Blades to strike. That's just one more skill you have to take.
Mardrax
QUOTE (PresentPresence @ Oct 22 2011, 08:50 PM) *
Thank you for reminding me of that. I'm not sure how you're combining full defense and passive defense like that, though. Unarmed+Gun is still inefficient because Two-Weapon style means blocking with one hand and striking with the other. With a gun, you can only apply Clubs or Blades to strike. That's just one more skill you have to take.

Pish posh again.
Riposte lets you attack in whatever way you deem fit, as long as it targets your attacker.
Meaning you get to put that Warhawk to proper use. For proper damage.
Yerameyahu
Yeah, how dare you try to be sane about it. smile.gif
PresentPresence
QUOTE (Mardrax @ Oct 22 2011, 03:07 PM) *
Pish posh again.
Riposte lets you attack in whatever way you deem fit, as long as it targets your attacker.
Meaning you get to put that Warhawk to proper use. For proper damage.

What I meant was that if you use Two Weapon Style to perform a melee attack while Full Blocking, the weapon in attacking hand will use its relevant skill. That means if you block with your shock hand (Unarmed) and simultaneously clock 'em with your Warhawk (Clubs) and then Riposte with your Warhawk (Pistols), you have used three skills, as opposed to blocking with another club, eliminating the need for Unarmed. The only way I could see Unarmed working is with a Tiffany Elegance Shooting Bracer. You can't (or at least shouldn't) have a shock hand as an underbarrel weapon.

I still don't know how you're both Passive Parrying and Full Gymnastics Dodging, though.
Udoshi
QUOTE (PresentPresence @ Oct 22 2011, 02:29 PM) *
I still don't know how you're both Passive Parrying and Full Gymnastics Dodging, though.


You need to reread the defense section of the combat chapter.

Full Parry is the ONLY full defense option which REPLACES your normal defense pool. Its incredibly poorly worded.
Everything else just adds more dice into the pool.
So declaring a block then using an interrupt action to go on Full Dodge or Full Gymdodge works just fine.

Additionally, crossing your skills while two-weaponing is disadvantagous, as it has a clause about reducing the skill to the lower of the two if you're mixing it.(see Attacker using a second firearm, p150) You can work around it(skillgroups), but its an easy thing to miss. It may or may not apply to firearms only, though.


I think you're misunderstanding my example as well. I wouldn't want to use Two-Weapon to generate an Dodge(this doesn't work). You use two-weapon offensively, making two attacks, and rely on the normal defensive options. (block, dodge, parry, full defense)
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