I was just wondering something. As we all know, stealth grapple line works like normal rope until it is touched by a catalyst stick, at which point it crumbles into dust. I am assuming that the rope must be made of some sort of nylon/plastic composition, due to the fact it can hold weight like normal rope.

Could that same compound be used to craft some sort of dagger/knife/shank/throwing spike? Then, after you've eliminated your target, you touch your catalyst stick to the weapon and PRESTO! The murder weapon disappears.

I was thinking of this because I know some firearms companies use nylon polymer compounds in production of their weapons (i.e. Glock).

Uhh, no. A whip maybe, but not anything that isn't flexible/made of fibers.

But it could be composed of fibers, especially in a shank-like form. And it could be flexible. Basically, I'm thinking of a pointy spike type of thing.

Ropes are made out of woven fiber. Can you make a pointy shank-like spike from what a normal rope is made out of? No. Good. Same with the special disintigrate rope.

Yes. Since nylon is a type of plastic, and plastic is made of fibers, you could. They wouldn't have to be woven, just placed in a very tight bundle and hardened. Do you think a plastic mechanical pencil is a gift from the gods? No, it's made of plastic. And it has a point on it.

My answer would be no, but that's because I find the stealth lines stupid to begin with.

Hows this. It obviously isn't made of similar rope materials, as it weights 1.5 times as much. Thusly, it isn't made out of anything similar to nylon, or any other material that exists today. Its made of some futuristic material, which can support 1,000kg easily, and when touched with a catlysing agent, disintegrates. Its also flexible. Thats all canon. You could make a whip out of it, thats it.

Right. Because, clearly, you have enough information to make such a certain and unequivocal decision.

Like, say, pouring thermite on the blade? Or just ditching it 10 miles away in the barrens? This is, indeed, unnecessary complexity.

Make your knife out of plasteel-7. Plasteel-7 catalyst has an availability of 10/48Hrs and costs 500 nuyen bu it would work fairly well. It would leave a big gooy lump of plasteel that is potentialy tracable but there would be no way to know that it was once a knife.

Actually, you'd still have to wad up the knife yourself, and then stick it to the underside of a chair or something.

Some rope materials can be used to make hard objects. What happens if you melt nylon rope and form it into a solid shape, it is actually quite hard.

The blade doesn’t need to be made out of fibres, it needs to be made out of a material like the one the fibres in the rope are.
To come at it another way, nylon is a substance that can come in many shapes, as a fibre it is flexible and can be woven into ropes, as a solid lump it is hard and brittle.

The destructible blade would probably be a slightly different chemical composition to the destructible rope but it could conceivably be done, the problem would be that you may have great difficulty making a blade that is effective in a fight, nylon for example is overly brittle and doesn’t hold an edge well.

Combining its lack of efficiency and the fact that it would usually be just as easy to hide the murder weapon until you can destroy it my more conventional means (requires less planing than getting a destructible blade) I doubt the market could ever be developed commercially.

Eth use of plaz steal 7 would be the closest I would allow.

Edward

Honestly, I think the R&D teams just had better things to do than come up with a 'stealth' shiv.

Stealth survival knife? Those things are HUGE!

Other than that, what would you make stealthy?

Cougar find blade? defeats the purpose..

Sneaky little boot knife? Boot knife does S#$t for damage. Punch 'em.

If you really need it, make the plasteel -7 . When you're done, toss the catalyst stick, make the damn thing into a goose.

Well, thanks all for your input, but my question wasn't about the weapons usefulness, or how you could more easily dispose of a murder weapon. I just wanted theories on if the construction of the weapon was plausible.

oh! umm....no?


a little more technically..

I think that part of it is that it has to be of loose construction. As I understand it, it's something like the nylon intermixed with magnesium. If it was a tightly condensed material like a blade, it wouldn't be able to get the catalyst flare throughout the item. where with the rope, the strength doesn't come from it's density, but from being interwoven.


Hopefully that's a little more helpful and at least sounds believable.

Yeah, it does help more. I can see what you're getting at now.

Cool. I work graves and my nights almost over, so I was worried the fuzzy-headedness would muck it up. Glad I could get my idea across at least.

I think I'll do the murder wapon-to-goose thing some time though. Just for a keep sake.

I work graves too, man. Just got off bout an hour ago, so I know how you feel.

I love it when other people start waking up/geting off work.

I've usually got my name on the last 5 or 6 posts. Just begging for someone to come relieve my boredom.

There's usually a bit of a slide in the coherency of my posts as the night goes on..

In the realm of the theoretical it is just achievable as stealth grapple line.

The fact that it didn’t get into the books dose not mean nobody in SR did it. That would be like saying that nobody in SR bothered to build a 10,000 candle power hand held spotlight because its not in the book. Get a copy of the catalogue for your local camping store (mine runs to 20 pages) expect there to be that much cool but not particularly relevant to the game stuff available in eth camping store down the rode from your character. In order to make the books a size where you can pick them up with one hand they simplified the list of equipment.

Another group of things they didn’t include where the really cool ideas that worked in R&D but marketing decided was not worth producing. I expect that a hole range of stealth products fall into this category.

Just because its not in the books doesn’t mean nobody did it yet.

Edward

Just take the knife out and huck it into the sound.

Sigh.... Once again,

Grifter:

Try a plastic or ceramic knife with a small vial of acid embedded inside it.

Use the knife, bend it in the middle until the vial goes "crack", and drop it in a trash can or down a storm drain.

Even if it's found, it's unlikely to be recognizable as a weapon.

Another possibility would be to use the acid, but impregnate the plastic with a small amount of magnesium--that's how the so-called "magnesium pencil" incendiary devices (used for sabotage during World War II) worked.

The two compounds mixed, and the result was a fire that burned so hot that the only thing that would extinguish it was smothering it with dirt.

As an added bonus, a composite knife made along those lines would be likely be so badly melted and deformed by the heat that (I believe) ritual samples would be difficult, if not impossible, to recover.

{Of course, with a ceramic blade, you could just smash it with a hammer--those ceramic-bladed chef's knives cut better than steel (almost painlessly; essentially, you don't realize you're cut until you start bleeding), but they're brittle--very easy to break if you have a hammer, a brick, or something similar handy.) }

--Foreigner

Time to stir the pot, first off, I'm not a chemical engineer, I just pretend, but follow me on this. The stealth line is made up of two reactive solids. these plastics are stable side by side until the catalyst causes them to react. there is (according to the book) residue left over, however it is a fine power(btw this is not that far into science fiction, the theory is good, getting plastics strong enough is the hard part). Could you make a blade out of a similar material, yes, there are many substances that are solid until something causes the reaction. I think for a knife this would be cool, but unpractical. What about an arrow? an arrow that dissolves when it comes in contact with the enzymes in blood. totaly possible with todays tech. so you've got the mark standing there with a small hole in his chest, the body guards don't know where the shot came from and the arrow has already shattered on the pavement and begun to disolve (there is no way an arrow from a modern bow will stop inside a human body, so don't argue) an effective assasination tool, no? how about a bullet, sure it would probly be light, but at close range? The possibilities are endless, and sixty years from now?

I know Cold Steel makes nylon knives, although I don't know how good they are.

Here's one.

Oh, right. Haven't had enough sleep today. Still a bit slow as far as reasoning goes.

For that matter, I once read a book in which one of the characters--who had a background in engineering--had designed and built a SUGAR Flechette gun.

IIRC, it fired darts made from an enriched sugar solution--think rock candy, the old-fashioned style, made by dipping sterilized string into a supersaturated solution (more like a syrup, I guess) of sugar and distilled water --and was powered by CO2.

It was almost totally silent--just a muted "pop"--and nearly untraceable. Assuming the victim died instantly, the only clues left behind were a VERY small puncture wound, and a slightly-elevated blood-sugar level in the area of the wound itself.

--Foreigner

Momma always said sugar would be the death of me, just never thougth she meant that literally

This is from personal experience, I find it hard to believe that (even with advances in tech, armor and bow/ arrow) that without some type of plates that body armor could stop an arrow. current equipment can achieve the same power (at close range) as large rifle calibers. arrows do loose energy more quickly due to their size, but that's not the issue here. It is not uncommon for arrows to exit such large animals as grizzly bears, (I saw a video of a leagly taken rhino in which the arrow passed mostly through the animals chest) I think that we all agree that a grizzly bear is much toughter than a human, and if you can brak the sholder's of a bear? And if your target is wearing full mil-spec hard, why are you using an arrow? And in that case the arrow disapearing means little. I was thinking of an assasination tool.

Thank you for that research. thank you for your correction on some points. on some I must dispute however. It is believed by many that the equation describing kinetic energy is overly biased toward velocity. this is one of the paradoxes that arrises from apparent physical evidence not lining up with theory, and nobody being interested to do full studies of said phenomena. that being said, there are compound bows at this time that do exceed 500 feet per second (although this is up for debate as there are different way so measuring arrow velosity. yes, I know it does not make sence, but there you have it)
Going back to purely today terms. you are absolutly right heavy body armor can be quite capable of stoping even the fastest heaviest arrows, regardless of head type. In the future this will undoutably remain the same, one must remember that a broadhead cuts, whereas an icepick or bukket pushes. in shadowrun terms most people do not wear even class 2 level armor. (assuming that it is about 4 points of armor, but that is a whole other debate) My point is that as a combat wepon, this would be quite ineffectve (there is a reason Armed Forces use guns) however as an assasination tool, where evidence is a liability this could have definity possbilites. again thank you for informed debate.

AE: it's a bit more complex than that to measure arrow velocity, as IIRC the arrow reaches peak velocity a few feet out from the bow due to some flexing action, but it's the same general idea.

~J

Yeah, forgot about that. Then use several chronographs at different distances from the bow, or fire several arrows with the chronograph at different distances if you don't have an unlimited budget. Still doesn't make measuring peak velocity particularly difficult -- compared to firearms, where you can't use a chronograph where the peak velocity occurs (because of the muzzle blast).

Tarantula, Nikoli, Arethusa:

I never said that it would work. I just thought I'd mention it, as it seemed to fit the topic--and might give someone more knowledgeable than I some ideas.

I don't recall the novel that well. However, I think it was a real stinker.

By today's standards, such a weapon might have possibilities for use against unarmored targets (or as an assassination weapon), especially if the sugar solution is mixed with a drug.

In SR terms, though, a Squirt of some sort loaded with a DMSO/drug cocktail would be more effective.

--Foreigner

I can see some use for it as a drug delivery system, but not as a direct weapon. In terms of physical lethality, it's up there with the ice bullet myth.

But if you want a drug delivery system, why waste your time with rock sugar nonsense? Umbrella guns with ricin coated pellets are far more practical.

I'd like to point out to anyone who says that you can't make a knife that'll "dissolve" that SR has nanotechnology - so you can basically dissolve anything you want.

It's IRRC mentioned in the books that that's how the insertion and removal of certain cyberware, like bone lacing for example, is accomplished. Of course, cost is a factor, but it's doable.

You are quite correct AE. what I meant by the equation of kinetic energy being biased towards velocity is that quantification of the energy the bullet will releace upon stopping is biaced toward highter velocity objects. but I concede that this is just a theory and that I have no real proof. given the number of factors that should be in the equasion as you mentioned (bullet shape, density, hardness, balistic coefcient) regardless, I don't know enough to debate if an arrow will peirce body armor, as the number of variables, and outside factors is quite large. well, I have some learning to go do, (and to figure out exactly what we were debating)

this is all well and good, but lets put this in game terms. your average heavy pistol does 9m, and a light does 6l: your "average" bow, assuming "average" means str 3, does 4m, and your average ranger-x bow 7m. now going off those numbers, the bow is the least "powerful" weapon, as it's a low easier to shrug off. (again,assuming two net sucsesses in each case) whatwe do have to take ino account are the types of armour that adam wage slave,brian the mall securityguard, and carl the shadowrunner are going to be wearing. adam the wage slave, assuming that he has to leave his nice safe corp enclave,is probablygoing to put on secure clothing (3/0). so, against the light pistol, he's resisting 3's, and needs 4 sucsesses (2to stage to light, 2 to soak). assuming an average body of 3, he'll be calling into work with a light wound. against the heavy pistol, he's resisting 6's, and needs 6 of them to avoid a serious wound. on average, he's only gonna get half a sucsess,so he'd better hope that whatever corp he's working for include a medivac at whatever wage bracket he's at. against the "normal bow" he's resisting 4's, and needs 6 of them. on average, hell roll 1 1/3 sucsesses, so he's taking that serious wound, And he'sgonna have a few feet of arrow stuck in (through?) him. betterhope that theres no rotating doors on the way to the e.r !. . if he's unlucky enough to get in the way of a ranger x arrow, he's looking at resisting 7's... which as it's more that twice his body, means that the arrow goes all the way thru him.

brian the mall securityguard, wearing his pale puce and fucia secure jacket (5/3), and being a little more beefy (bod 5), is resisting 2's for the light pistol, and will more often than not, shrug off the light pistol (that which does not kill me, mearly pisses me off, and all that) against the heavy pistol, he's resisting 4's, so on average, is going to take a moderate wound. against the "light" bow, he's also resisting 2's, , but given that on average, he'll get 3 sucsesses, he'll still be taking a moderate wound. against the heavy ranger x bow, he's loking for 4's, and on average may get 1 (ok. 1.6666).. which means he usually resists it down to a moderate, but theres a 33% chance of taking a serious.

carl the shaddow runner, with his 7/7 armour (probably layered secure jacket over form fitting,with authoskin, and bone lacing), and a body of 9,is resisting 2's, 2's, 2's and 2's.. and, if my maths is right, is shrugging off all of them. in fact i'd put in a claim that he maynot even have felt the first light pistol round.....

now that i've actually put this in game terms, andgiven values to everthing, we can make a slighly informed conclusion. against an average joe, in what i'm guessingis pretty average clothing, even an "average" bow is pretty damaging. against a "heavier" opponant, the light bow, and the heavy pistol are about the same... both end up giving a modeate or serious wound. (ok,theheavy pistol is 1/3rdof a suscess more "powerfull", but were only taljing on sucsess in three). the ranger x bow on the other hand, tends to go right thru "average"members of the public,seriously wound security guards, and makes shadowrunners look for a direction to send a wall of lead in reply.

the other things that this tells me are:

high strenght trolls with ranger-x bows are sniper GODS

on average a weaponwith a base damage code of M is allways preferable to one with a base of light.... as even if it's a littlekess powersull, your target needs two more sucsesses before you even think about resisting.

shadow run armour is,on average better than shadowrun guns.

high str troll + rangerx bow = scary.

people wearing enough armour dont need to worry too much about unskilled shooters.

guns dont kill people. reallyhigh skills do.