Hey all,

So I've got some questions about magic. I hope you'll indulge my curiosity!
I own all the books, but in some cases just need help finding the sections where it discusses my question.


1) Adept Power Points as Metamagic for Initiating Adepts: I get the impression that this is one of the optional rules, but I looked all through the Initiation sections of SR4A and SM, and could not locate it. If someone could give me a page number, that would be peachy.


2) Free Spirit Pacts: How do you determine the Force of the Free Spirit? It mentions in SM that most Free Spirits are at least Force 6, but when you pick the Spirit Pact quality it only mentions the Edge of the Spirit, not the Force.
Not only that, but what difference does the Free Spirit's Edge actually make to the PC with the pact? In a couple cases, the spirit's edge is mentioned... but in others it seems to make no difference.

On that note, I'm interested to hear what people think of the balance of the Spirit Pact quality, especially if you have GMed or played with it before.
I have one particular character that wants a Free Spirit as an essential part of his background story, and is considering Spirit Pact. He plans to use the pact which allows him to trade powers with the Spirit; in this case, he's thinking Regeneration. Is this blatantly overpowered and never allowed by most people here when running games? Or are there disadvantages that balance it out? I'm thinking so, especially because that specific pact only lasts 24 hours and requires a lot of upkeep (and likely Karma handouts) for the Free Spirit, but I'd like to hear other opinions.

Also in this particular case, he wants the Free Spirit to be more of a loyal companion (actually, a lover of sorts..... ew, but kinda interesting as well). What would be the best way to simulate that? (and no, not the sexual part, lol)
Should the Free Spirit be a high level contact, or are there rules elsewhere for having ally companions?
I may not have the ideal number of players for this campaign, so I'm not opposed to a player or two having NPC allies that help out with runs (though I would be playing them, which is part of the fun on my part, mwahahaha!).


3) About the Adept Power of Elemental Strike (Blast): Opinions on this? I know the usual min-maxed choices for element are either Electricity or Sound, but the Adept has this demolitions expert concept which I think is pretty neat. Basically, when carrying around high explosives isn't an option, he likes to blow stuff up with his fists!
Should be interesting, but my question is this.... exactly what kind of secondary effects does blast get? It is sorta vague in the SM description. It mentions blowing away objects if the attacks force is greater than the objects rating, but in the case of an unarmed adept using elemental strike... what is the Force?
I was just going to go with his total unarmed DV, but if there are other opinions or official rulings I'd love to hear them.

Also, he was originally going to go with the 1 PP adept power (Smashing Blow, I think?) that allowed him to double his DV against static objects... but then he also points out the section in the core rulebook that explains attacks against barriers. Normally melee attack DVs are unadjusted (x1), but it also lists explosive attacks as DV x2.
Now the description for the Blast Element is pretty clear that it is equivalent to an explosive blast... so would it be fair to conclude that against objects the DV would be doubled? Therefore making the Smashing Blow power redundant (at least when Elemental Strike was activated)?
Lastly, does the Blast element help him with Knockdown?



I have a couple other magic questions, but I have to run. I'll post them later.
I also apologize if I got the name of some powers wrong, as I don't have the books right in front of me at the moment.


Cheers everyone, and thanks in advance for the help!

Just going to tackle 1 for now.
Blast element description explicitly states that it helps with knockdown. It normally adds the force to the damage inflicted when comparing to the defender's body. It isn't clear on the "force" of the attack when used as an elemental strike as you mentioned above. We default to the Adept's Magic rating to determine force in situations such as this.
As far as explosives and structures are concerned, note that blast is like the shockwave of an explosion, not like an explosion. I don't think I would give the additional multiplier, but you might add the 'force' of his blast element if you feel the need to add something, but the AP -1/2 is already a significant modifier for barriers.

I've got a character right now with the Formula Spirit Pact, it doesn't do anything in-game really since the benefits are Immunity to Age for the player and indestructibility for the spirit, but I thought it would be a fun roleplay and plot device quality (since the spirit's enemies will come after you, likewise any mages interested in acquiring a free spirit true name formula by ganking you), and while I can't counsel you with regards to the power level of the pacts (IMO they all seem incredibly strong heh), there are numerous plot elements you as the GM can introduce as a result of this. A Free Spirit could be involved in any number of intrigues, both in the physical world and in the metaplanes (whcih have a number of intricate political structures) that the players get dragged into.

With regards to ally companions I'd recommend using an Ally Spirit for that, they're expensive karma-wise, (10-13 for the metamagic, 8x Force the spirit itself), but very much worth it and are exactly what your player would be looking for, a constant, loyal companion in whatever form you desire with all the usual spirit powers all at once (except spell sustaining). You could just allow him to get one at chargen by giving it a BP cost or through karmagen.

In regards to the knockdown... ah right, I thought so. Just didn't have the book in front of me.

As for the AP - 1/2 versus barriers.... I'd have to double check my SR4A book, but I thought AP was ignored when attempting to destroy barriers.

Also, if Blast doesn't count as a legitimate explosion... then is it impossible to replicate explosions using magic? I figured that was the point of the introduction of the Blast element in SM.

You are correct that AP is ignored. We treated elemental strike as equivalent to the relevant indirect elemental spell (which essentially halved the armor). As the DV of spells are not changed, this made the adepts fists equivalent (if not better than) explosives.

SR4A p.16
Resolve the damage resistance test by rolling the barrier’s Armor
x 2. Against Indirect Combat spells and explosives attached directly,
barriers roll only their Armor rating. The weapon’s AP is ignored. Each
net hit reduces the modified DV by 1.

EDIT: I would say that a true explosion is fire and blast mixed.

Hmmmm... ok, so what you are saying is that if the physad with Elemental Strike (Blast) punched a wall with 12 DV, the Armor rating would be halved? So if the wall had an armor rating of 16, it would only resist with 8?
Or do you just mean it would resist with it's full armor rating of 16 instead of being doubled to 32 like in most cases?

Also, I assume this would apply against vehicles and drones as well?


Incidently, the Smashing Blow power doubles the DV....but only against static unmoving objects? So not versus a vehicle, drone, or even a weapon held by an enemy?

Thank for the help.... just trying to wrap my head around this.


EDIT: Oh, and just from skimming the Indirect Combat Spell portion of SR4A on page 204, it says...

"Note that nonliving objects resist damage from an Indirect Combat spell with their Armor rating x 2 (see Barriers, p. 166)"

Doesn't that contradict the Armor x 1 statement on page 166?

I would deal 12 DV against full armor of 16. Not doubled. Not halved.

Drones and vehicles handle damage normally. They are not barriers.
AP applies to vehicles and if you can't beat the vehicle armor, the attack is negated.
Smashing blow only works on barriers or fixed structures so vehicles/drones: no; breaking an object: maybe
It is a lot to consider.


Good find! This is directly contradictory (in both SR4 and SR4A).
I go with barrier @ 1x armor for indirect spells to account for the elemental effects halving armor.
In essence we put our finger to the wind and let common sense dictate, though even that is variable.

Great, thank you for the clarification McCummhail!

As for an Elemental Strike adept's fists being equal to or better than explosives... from your explanation it appears as though the barrier would resist with Armor x 1 against both the adept and attached explosives.
However, according to the table on Page 166 the explosives would also double their DV, whereas the adept's unarmed DV would simply remain the same.

Or am I still missing something?

BTW McCummhail, are you a writer for Catalyst? Your posts sound like you work for Catalyst



On another note, I'm still curious about gaining adept Power Points in place of metamagic when initiating. Can someone help me with the page number? Thanks!

Factor in the smashing blow and a human's fist is equivalent to a kilo of commercial explosives, a troll equivalent to a kilo of high grade C4.
Generally, you can rack up dice for a melee strike easier than for a Demolitions test, so pound for pound, the adept will win out.
Thank you, but I am just a rapid SR fan bored at work with digital books on hand.
EDIT:I am not certain about that. I have seen it bandied about, but have never seen a solid reference.
I utilized my search-fu. It is an optional rule introduced in the Street Magic Errata
p. 31 Tweaking the Rules
Add the following Tweak:
“Adept Initiation. Groups may consider allowing adepts
to gain 1 Power Point instead of a Metamagic at Initiation.”

Thanks again!

So after watching the Hurt Locker for the first time (not a horrible movie, but I don't know what all the fuss was about) and doing a little basic research on explosives, I have come to a personal conclusion...

The Blast element will most certainly apply x2 DV when attacking any kind of barrier, the same as an explosion would.
This is because, apparently, the actual damaging portion of an explosion IS the shockwave.


Watch this clip from The Hurt Locker, and go to about 3:45 to see the explosion. (spoiler alert if you haven't seen the first 10 minutes of the movie)

(Yes, I know it's just a movie, but it won over many critics.... and awards..... for it's accurate portrayal.)

Notice that the actual "Fireball" from the explosion is very small. There also appears to be a minimum amount of Fragmentation, though with any explosion that will still be a factor.
Still, the Bomb Tech's suit would have protected him from most of the shrapnel.

So what turned him into Chunky Salsa inside his heavy bomb disposal suit? The shockwave, plain and simple.


After re-reading SR4A and Arsenal, Shadowrun mechanics seem to stand by this interpretation of explosive force. For example, the High Explosive grenade works on exactly this principle.
Sure, you can use a Fragmentation grenade.... and it will shred unarmored targets over a wider radius. But a High Explosive grenade is what will really turn things into itty bitty bits just due to it's supersonic shockwave.


Therefore, in my games I would allow the adept power of Elemental Strike (Blast) to affect barriers exactly like an explosion would. x2 DV and x1 Armor.
This also counts for any custom Blast Element indirect spells that mages might want to use, replicating explosive forces.

In some ways this makes Smashing Blow redundant (just add it to the list of redundant and/or handicapped adept powers), BUT it still has it's advantages.
For one, it's on all the time and doesn't take an action to activate. Whereas Elemental Strike takes a simple action to activate (that's one less IP for smashing) and only lasts a number of Combat Turns equal to your Magic.
If someone is making a cyber/bio adept and doesn't have a really high Magic rating, Smashing Blow might be the better choice.
Also, Elemental Strike requires Killing Hands as a pre-requisite... which is something that certain Cybered and Bioed adepts won't always need, particularly if they already have high levels of Bone Lacing or Bone Density.

As for it being equal to or better than Demolition users.... if you use the advanced rules in Arsenal, there are still some pretty sick things you can do with the right explosives and a good demolitions skill.
You could actually get up to x4 DV against barriers, whereas I would probably rule that the Blast Element (for magic purposes) is limited to x2 because it isn't as precise and you can't tamp (shape) the explosion.


Again, this is just my opinion, but I think it's a logical one.

I haven't seen Hurt Locker so I won't spoil it yet.

Sounds like a solid line of reasoning.
My call was a blush response based on my limited understanding of explosives (not a demo man in RL).
I think I will consider that in the future. My concern in general is attributing unstated effects to powers rapidly increases the effect of some powers more than others. Blast elemental strike power is already good, so I didn't see a need to make it more powerful (especially when smashing blow is there for that specific purpose).

If you read it that way then there is no reason that smashing blow and blast elemental strike could not stack. Smashing blow is using the smashing energy often seen in board or brick breaking demonstrations, whereas Blast is adding an explosive force to the smashing energy.

This could net x3 or x4 DV depending on how you wanted to work it.