CGL speculation #1 pg. 1-28
CGL speculation #2 pg. 1-10
CGL speculation #3 pg.1-50

OK folks, in an effort to keep things a little more streamlined and easy to reference, we're closing up the previous beast of a thread, and moving it to a brand new page 1.

Enjoy, play nice.

No... and here I was hoping it could beat the "Horrors vs Humans" thread for thread length! Go Humans! (except the people responsible for creating this crisis, feed them to the Horrors, I say)

The Quest for more Money?
I like it Fisty, that's funny ^^

I believe its a Spaceballs 2 reference.

But you youngns may have newer references for the phrase.


BlueMax

Spaceballs 2. Kinda like CGL on payment, Brooks never delivered <.<
And i'm still waiting for History of the World Part 2 too! "Yews in Space!"

So what was the latest development in the prior 3.0 thread? I think it was that the salaried person looking at the Catalyst finances was asked to falsify records by Loren L. Coleman and that Randall Bills told her that if she had a problem with that she should leave? Is that about right?

All hail the great Threadkiller!

So to recap; CGL is divesting itself of everything but the two core properties Battletech and Shadowrun in an effort to focus on strengthening those lines and straightening out their financial woes.
To date some, but not all freelancers have received some payments due, an alleged plan to keep the BT and SR licences is in motion, but the person at the heart of the problem is still in control. Hoo Boy!

Grexul

Our latest development was reviving the age old debate between free will and determinism. With Cain arguing that Loren Coleman asking Jenifer Harding to falsify financial records with Randall Bills' knowledge was equivalent to firing her. On the grounds that since she would not make any other choice but to resign in the face of being asked to potentially break the law by her superiors that the request was functionally identical to asking for her resignation. On the other side, we had Jennifer Harding herself taking the side of free will, noting that she could have chosen to prepare and present false financial results to Topps and possibly the IRS - thus emphasizing her exercise of choice in leaving the company.

It's a fairly limited argument, since of course regardless of whether she chose to resign or was destined to resign by the wheels set in motion by the unlawful request - the fact remains that the past is immutable. Not matter what happens now, she did resign in March. The past is, of course, immutable.

So the timeline she presented was that she was given the edict to falsify royalty reports to Topps. Then she brought this to Randal Bills and said that she could not possibly do that. Randall Bills suggested apparently that if she did not feel comfortable with working in a company that would put her in such a position that she could quit. And she quit.

Now Cain says that however nicely Randall put that statement, it's functionally the same as saying "falsify those reports or clean out your desk." Jennifer Harding says that no one controls her destiny but herself and that she personally made the decision to clean out her desk. While much virtual ink was spilled over this distinction, honestly it doesn't seem like much of a distinction. While I am sure there were other choices that could have been made - remaining nominally at her desk while passively declining to fabricate royalty reports to Topps for example - it is demonstrable fact that in that situation Jennifer Harding was not going to make any of them. Her ethics required that she quit the company under those circumstances - ethics that existed prior to her being put in that situation by Loren and Randall.

Next up: Dumpshock debates Solipsism, the Problem of Induction, and the existence of language as an entity that persists outside the mind of a single observer.

-Frank

Frank, I just have to say, that was about the funniest, and most concise recap of recent events I have ever read.

Thanks man, you just made my day.


-Ashrum

Just wanted to jump in while #4 was still on the first page. *waves to all the people who will inevitably read this thread*

When we get around to them, sign me up for the Solipsism and language arguments Frank.

And, to remind us all of the good parts of the former thread: woo belly button rings and genie outfits!

(P.S. Humans can totally take the Horrors.)

Actually, CGL still has Paparazzi, High School Drama, Merchants and the upcoming Leviathans and Balance of Power.

In the interest of spin control, or in this case reality grounding I will repost Tiger Eyes aka Jennifer H. and let her words speak for themselves.



AND



So even though Jennifer's actions are supposedly the start of all this (as far as bringing much of it to light or being a touch stone often cited for how bad things are) and she has stated her reasons for leaving were her own Frank and Cain will put their fingers in their ears and hum when it doesn't fit their world view. Personally, if someone told me "there there dear, you didn't really choose to quit, you were forced out" when it came to leaving my passion I'd be pretty insulted, but that's neither here nor there.

As to what has changed recently:
Checks are going out to some freelancers based on a schema that CGL is unwilling to discuss, however by my own and others speculation it's part of a multistep process to keep books on shelves or within development windows.
The connecting non-CGL non-BT/SR portions of the enterprise are being spun out and turned in including transfering produced hard materials as part of an effort to clear outstanding debts. While this is news it's not suprising to me at least giving some of the folks leaving the company. This could be seen as the formal announcement.

There I've done my part to reset the proverbial scales.

Has anyone actually taken Cain's assertions/posts seriously?

I understand JM Hardy having to read them, and occasionally respond to them. PR is part of his job and sometimes that involves reading all matter of things that people are tossing out there. But I just skip Cain's posts...more fervently than usual.

EDIT: Frank's posts occasionally have sprinklings of information in them. Sure you have to dig through the elephant droppings of his wild speculations to find those few peanuts of information. But at least there are a few peanuts there to find.

There is no money to print any of the "upcoming" titles or reprint the others when they still are in arrears to Topps and IMR's many creditors to the degree they are. To say otherwise is misleading, Ken, since you have seen the same information I have.

I hope they can pull a rabbit out of the hat and save the company and retain the two core licenses, but with only the insane, carefree or negligent willing to give them money and Topps now evidently having access to people who have publicly stated Randall and Loren L. Coleman asked them to falsify royalty reports, I can't imagine any cash flow will remain positive that they do not directly control. This ignores the potential accounting and legal issues one can get into in situations like this - how long until "defending against the Government" becomes their primary activity? That isn't cheap or quick and easy like I like my dates.

If it does come to that, where are they going to get the money to make that defense?

If it doesn't come to that, do the other LLC members really want someone who is either careless enough to "co-mingle" funds or avaricious enough not to care as the President? Randall might have been a good choice, but his recent business decisions (including "permit Troy to sell product while their copyright is revoked by "forgetting"" and "Loren L. Coleman is the best person to lead and represent this company" and "Loren will remain active in the business as more than a freelancer") and apparent ethical choices (such as apparently "falsify these reports" and "Loren L. Coleman is the best person to lead and represent this company" and that other one about the convicted child toucher) and apparent legal choices (including apparently "falsify these reports" and apparently extorting the company in front of other directors should this come to light) make it clear he is unsuited on many levels to lead at all, let alone a company on fire. But since Loren L. Coleman is calling the shots and still has access to the checkbook, I guess that's a moot issue anyway.

It was entirely avoidable, too, even if one steps in about when Jennifer did after the embezzlement occurred. But again, Randall N. Bills and Loren L. Coleman and Heather J. Coleman made choices to suppress and ignore this as long as possible then refuse to make the obvious choices (like "remove Loren L. Coleman and Heather from the operations of the business"), and here we are on Dumpshock.

There are many possible futures, and sadly I see few of them with IMR emerging as a functional business holding the two key licenses. Meh - less likely things have happened.

- Ket

Can you source some of these claims? Ethical choices regarding child molestation? That's a totally new/left-field issue. I don't think anyone, even Frank, has previously suggested there was a conspiracy b/w Coleman and Bills to "extort" the other LLC members. Nor has anyone told us what the new financial processes are at Catalyst (e.g. whether Loren L. Coleman can still cut checks). While I don't doubt the latter given Randall's stance in the freelancer letter, I'm really curious 1) if you can source these things and 2) if you can, how are you getting the same information that's available to Ken, who's been ID'ed as one of the LLC members/owners?

You forgot the belly button ring, and the lone star cop mounting the unicorn.

Out of curiosity, are you involved as one of the members of the LLC? If you can't / won't /don't want to answer, I understand. I was just curious as to how the LLC was set up and if the other members can remove offending parties.

Well... it's coming from somewhere. I count what, five lawyers right now? Or is it down to three again? It's hard to tell which lawyers are still "on the case" and which ones the Colemans just stopped talking to after they didn't like what they heard. But in any case, I can see a pretty simple place for the money to come from.

We're at, what, seven hundred and twenty six thousand dollars in missing money from "co-mingled" funds, fake checks, and straight up cash withdrawals for unexplained expenses. Plus another estimated one hundred and twenty thousand in missing product and under reported convention takings. The Coleman estate is indeed impressive, and they had it built in 2007, back when real estate costs a might bit more than it does now. But let's be clear here: it "only" costs $650,000 in 2010 money, and they have a mortgage. Most of the money is straight up unaccounted for in all that, profligate as it is. If they want to tap out for a wall of litigation, I don't see what any of the members of the angry mob can do to stop them.

I estimate that between pre-royalties, labor, and printing costs, that getting Shadowrun started up again with a year of reasonably timed releases would cost roughly half a million dollars. And it would make that back rather easily in that year if distributors could be convinced to hire on. Selling 50,000 books from five or six titles ain't no big thing for a new edition of Shadowrun with the interest generated by a grand reopening. And distributors are interested in this product because it will sell. For money. Right in the middle of the hell storm, PSI added Catalyst to their friends list. If Loren Coleman wasn't in full paranoia mode in his tower of crimson tape, he'd probably be able to shell out that kind of start-up money from his pocket. In cash. Assuming of course that Topps would take him back, which I have difficulty imagining them doing.

Of course, the Colemans are in full paranoia mode: lambasting various freelancers for being "the leak," disabling all the freelancer accounts that haven't been used for a month to try to eliminate "back doors" (hint: if someone has been getting unauthorized access to your data stream in the last 30 days, it wasn't through logins that haven't been used in the last 30 days), and of course, trolling the seas of legal council trying to find someone who thinks they can win.

Bottom line: if you think that you can starve out Loren Coleman from the moist and delicious taste of legal defense, even after you manage to get him to stop billing his family lawyer to the company, you're fooling yourself.

-Frank

At this point do you intend to wikileak a source document for any of these numbers or are we just all supposed to put credence in a guy who obviously has an axe to grind, no matter how legitimate.

You know, as much as I don't like Frank's tone, attitude, general presence, you can't disagree that if it wasn't for him, none of this would have come out. As much as people would like to deny it, it isn't like he's making things out of whole cloth. Numerous people have come out to pretty much confirm what he's been saying.

And on that note, Cain has actually been restrained, for Caine's posting style. He's actually got some points for being remarkably level headed as one of the oldbies hanging around here.

Ketjak is a part owner of IMR LLC. So he would count as a primary source.

The child molestation issue wasn't brought up before, hopefully it won't be brought up again. I personally don't think it's relevant to anything. If a man does time for sex crimes - or any crimes - then they have indeed already paid the price for their transgression. You don't put them in charge of youngsters unattended or whatever, but let's be clear here: IMR has no positions of trust over underage girls. Or boys even. I do not regard the decision to bring on someone with that kind of history as being an example of poor judgement. The inter-office poo fight over whether he "really did it" or not is completely irrelevant (and frankly exhaustingly stupid). The courts say he did, but the courts also say the punishment is finished. In my opinion, that is all that needs to be said. He did it, it's over, he's allowed back into society. End of discussion.

As for extortion: as things currently stand, Loren Coleman and Randall Bills have the power to just... stop... selling... product. The company is crashing and burning yes, but Coleman and Bills can take it to Earth much faster if they want to. The other owners are owed a lot of money, and they aren't getting it back without a court settlement unless they do things Loren and Randall's way and have the money sent to them voluntarily. Weirdly, Loren Coleman has a lot of power over the other owners right now.

-Frank

I'm going to throw this out there for people on both sides of this little argument:

Put up or shut up.

If you're claiming to have insider knowledge, whether as a freelancer, employee, shareholder, or just the night watchman, post your credentials. Same goes for everyone who is posting their "insider knowledge". Post your name. Post your affiliation, past, present or future. Have your "Source" come forward.

Put up, or shut up. Anything else is mindless hot air from folks either trying to defend CGL or folks trying to defame it (Some with an obvious grudge).

If you're too cowardly to step forward, you don;t have the right to be heard. If you're too worried about "professionalism" and potential "future work in the industry", you shouldn't be running your mouth in the first place.

I have a lot of respect for Jennifer to do what she's done and to say what she's said. Same goes for Bobby. I also have a lot of respect for folks in the middle of this that have decided to be professionals and wait for things to blow over, like Adam and Bishop.

I have none for folks that are coming in and waving their dicks around behind masks of internet anonymity. No respect, and in my eyes, you have no credibility.

Steven "Bull" Ratkovich, Freelancer, Playtester, Missions Coordinator

I think everyone knows who I am, but in case they don't...

Jay "Demonseed Elite" Levine, former Shadowrun freelancer (2000 - 2008)

@Frank: Thanks for confirming the relationships at issue.

@Bull You may not believe how many times I've had to use that same line on players.

As to an internal fight between founders, these things can get ugly. Any SF Bay tikiphiles who survived the Martin Cate/Forbidden Island hoopla know what I am talking about.

It wont serve anyone to see it all here on the forum. Well, not any higher purpose but perhaps as entertainment.

Heck, thats why I watch these threads with my popcorn handy.

So actually, keep going. But remember, this *is* the internet and won't likely win you anything.

BlueMax

One thing's for sure: my respect level for Bills and Coleman, built up after so many years of BattleTech novels and sourcebooks, just bottomed out. Other than saying that, I hope that some semblance of the BT & SR lines make it through this shit storm so that I can have my two favorite games ever.

I'm Bobby Derie, former Shadowrun freelancer (2005 'til March 2010).

I'm also probably one of Frank's "sources." Frank and I worked together on a few books, and we still talk to one another. I'm certainly not the only freelancer Frank talks to, but we talk about a lot of stuff, including how bad things were getting at Catalyst right before the decision was made to ban me from the freelancer forums and I terminated my contracts. I did not have access to exact figures - hey, I was only freelancer - but I talked (and still talk) to a lot of people and I believe Frank's numbers are probably in the right ballpark. I may be wrong.

So my requests to judge Catalyst's future based on what actually happens, rather than speculation, seem to have run on dry ground. At least, for some people.

Jason H.

@Jason: So it would seem. I'm shocked that an LLC member would comment publicly on this sort of thing given the likelihood of litigation down the road, but people do crazy things sometimes.

It is to be expected. People need answers. Not want, but need. On a very primal, very biological basis. When the humand mind does not get an asnwer, it builds one. From whatever sources it can scavenge. That's rumors in a nutshell.

Especially when a product line with such obvious emotional attachment from it's customer base is starting to appear in trouble, the customers want reassurance. In some cases even insurance.

Your request, Jason, was rational, fair and most probably the best way to go about it. Unfortunately it clashes with "human nature" along the way =/

A lack of speculation on the intertubes doesn't allow us to link to old posts to grow our e-peen saying, "Look, I was right! Nyeah nyeah!"

Now, back to the belly button ring thing... was it gotten from a unicorn with a S Corp license? Pics! We wants pics! (Of the unicorn, of course!)

I'm sure people appreciate having their personal information spread on a message forum without their permission.

Sure. Cain says that Jennifer was forced out. LurkerOutThere says that being put in an untenable position is different to being forced out. He apparently has some definition of force that precludes putting people in untenable positions. I don't see what in Cain's point is so hard to take seriously. If someone came along to me and said commit potentially illegal acts on my behalf and certainly unethical ones, it would pretty much force me out of the company.

@Frank: That was one of the most amusing re-caps I've ever read.

Your logic is sound, and could very be used in the intro of a sourcebook I've been loosing plotting out. Umberto Eco wrote a fine book, Foucault's Pendulum, about that part of human nature.

Jason H.

Um... At the risk of rehashing a dying argument (as if that ever stopped me before...) $500k is actually pretty manageable. Especially if there is product ready to ship. Assuming former freelancers who are withholding copyright could be brought back into the fold, a new company have product in GM hands using digital publishing, like, the day after getting the license.

Also, does anyone know what the market value for Shadowrun is? In other words, if no one else wants the license, a new company's offer to Topps only has to be IMR's offer + $1. Or potentially, less money but accompanies with the perception of greater stability. As an unknowledgeable outsider, it certainly appears that a new company with a mere $500k in upfront costs would be very viable. PDF sales and digital publishing of existing product could generate some quick cash flow until a large print purchase could be made for higher margins and new products. Just sayin...

Nigel D. Findley already wrote that book. GURPS Illuminati.

If you put it in the internet in any way shape or form, you really have no more expectation of privacy, Legally, you might, but realistically, if it is on the internet, it is findable.

Noted and removed. Though it's not a terribly big secret.

I probably won't go quite that far out.

Jason H.

I don't think you did anything wrong. It took me a couple of seconds to identify Ketjak the same way. I left it at him being "one of the part owners" rather than using his full name, but I don't think anyone who that name means anything to is confused. Public information is pretty much public.

However, I am genuinely exhausted by the constant condemnation of posting information without revealing primary sources coupled with condemning the release of primary source documents. Often by the same people. Let's face it: primary source material such as Loren Coleman's housing transaction records keep getting taken down, either from peer pressure or direct moderator action. I would strongly suggest that at this point people just keep track of who said that Loren Coleman had spent company dimes on his house, and who said they didn't, and keep track of who is trustworthy that way.

-Frank

I could agree with this up to the point that in the age of information, everyone's putting up tons of 'public' information that I wouldn't even be aware of unless I was trying to find myself constantly and repeatedly, and I don't mean the zen version. Luckily my real name is completely overwhelmed by a soccer star.

I don't really think I did anything wrong either, since he's credited in Battletech books with his name and that nickname. But since you already had the relevant part covered, I figured I may as well leave it to Ketjak to fill in any details if he wants to.

As someone who posted LLC's housing information (from Google) and had my hand (very lightly) slapped for it, I can appreciate that the moderators are trying to do what they think is best. Obviously, they're very difficult to find and contact until you get your DS degree. I see a need for a policy framework. Unfortunately, it would be too difficult to address every possible occurrence so a policy would be left to extremes. I.E. "Look, we have screen names for a reason. Don't out anyone." Or, "Hey, if it's public, it's fair game." The moderators are admirably trying to find a middle ground, but I think it's impossible. The only possible outcome is an uneven and inconsistent application of the TOS. Kinda like 2009 SEC football. At any rate, it's a free forum so what do you expect? (BTW - it's free!?! Why aren't you guys looking for advertisers? With this dedicated (rapid, obsessive) a fan base, it would be an easy sales pitch.)

Re: Advertisements - Dumpshock has used them in the past and gotten away from them. Likewise there have been fundraiser drives at different points. The owners and moderators of DSF do what they do, the way they do it. I believe the last decision was to just let it be, and people who donate or buy dinner for the mods do what they do and everyone else lives on the bountiful generosity of "viewers like you."

Re: Outing informers/sources/et al - People will say what they want to. Some of those conversations are held in confidence, others are said with the clear intention that it will be shared. Actions have been taken to identify the leaks internally and ensure that those sharing information are not doing so unlawfully. I am not aware of any individuals who have violated an NDA on file with InMediaRes Productions, LLC. If they had, actions would be taken. That said, if in the future actions are taken, do not expect officials to out them in a public forum.

Thank you,
Stephen "BishopMcQ" McQuillan
Production Manager, IMRPro
Freelancer

I'll limit my reply to this for now. It's in the works.

We try to keep everything we moderate on within the confines of the ToS. That being said, it's not going to cover every eventuality. Sometimes, you need to follow the spirit, both in protecting other Users, and our site its self.

Posting Coleman's information for example could have led to more harassment, which would have had it's source here. We're not going to be part of that. Posting a users name is another issue, although granted not such a hot one. Bottom line is that if they want their name out there, they wouldn't be using a handle, would they?

Wait, whaa... when did this happen!? No one bought me dinner! I'm damn hungry too!
*runs off to yell at Bull*

Come to GenCon then...Last time you were running around with the boot if I recall correctly.

At least not one that they're already publicly associated with, as Ketjak is.

Patrick Goodman, who's never used a handle here
(Although I do use "PGoodman13" as a login on some boards, which some people call me even though I use my real name in my sig)
Shadowrun freelancer and general curmudgeon

Paparazzi is owned by Posthuman Studios, and Catalyst never finalized a contract with them -- me -- for the game.