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Ancient History
The Yama King's stats were deliberately wonky because he's not a standard spirit type and doesn't follow all the same rules.
last_of_the_great_mikeys
I got the impression that this particular Yama-dude was one of the "lesser" ones. Tought, but not unbeatable by a decent shadowrunner team.

I would be interested to hear about anyone playing a free spirit character and how such fared against this beastie.
Ancient History
It was originally planned that the runner that actually "killed" a Yama King would actually gain the Cursed Karma quality, but that seemed a touch overkill.
pbangarth
QUOTE (Ancient History @ Apr 10 2010, 06:06 PM) *
It was originally planned that the runner that actually "killed" a Yama King would actually gain the Cursed Karma quality, but that seemed a touch overkill.
Nasty! What about just Banishing? Would that have gained the curse as well?
Ancient History
Yep!
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Ancient History @ Apr 10 2010, 09:25 PM) *
Yep!


You are a bad man Ancient... Very Very Bad...

Keep the Faith
toturi
QUOTE (Ancient History @ Apr 11 2010, 09:06 AM) *
It was originally planned that the runner that actually "killed" a Yama King would actually gain the Cursed Karma quality, but that seemed a touch overkill.

So it was another Deus Ex that said no matter how the runner defeated the Yama King he would lose?
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (toturi @ Apr 10 2010, 09:52 PM) *
So it was another Deus Ex that said no matter how the runner defeated the Yama King he would lose?



Or at least be punished for his victory... which may, or may not, equal out to the same thing... Though I could see it as just an unfortunate consequence of his victory...

Some Victories are bitter sweet, or even pyric, after all...

Keep the Faith
Patrick the Gnome
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Apr 10 2010, 11:05 PM) *
Or at least be punished for his victory... which may, or may not, equal out to the same thing... Though I could see it as just an unfortunate consequence of his victory...

Some Victories are bitter sweet, or even pyric, after all...

Keep the Faith


"Land ravaged, cities in ruins, so many lives sacrificed, and yet there was no other word for it but victory."
-Near-Death Experience MTG


Sorry, couldn't resist.
Saint Sithney
A touch of Whitestar could turn this assault into a farce. :-/
kjones
Forgive me for asking, but what is Whitestar?
DWC
QUOTE (kjones @ Apr 11 2010, 09:17 AM) *
Forgive me for asking, but what is Whitestar?


It's a high end chemical weapon made of a mix of chlorine gas and phospane. It'd be just the thing for rendering someplace like Kowloon Walled City uninhabitable for years.

Edit: It's a toxin in Arsenal with a Power level of 12.
Bira
QUOTE (Saint Sithney @ Apr 11 2010, 04:26 AM) *
A touch of Whitestar could turn this assault into a farce. :-/


Well, if high-grade chemical weapons are a routine part of your equipment, and their use a routine part of your tactics, then you wouldn't be taking the sort of job presented in Ghost Cartels in the first place, would you? You'd probably be terrorizing some hapless civilians out in war-torn China and living off the loot.
DWC
QUOTE (Bira @ Apr 11 2010, 10:08 AM) *
Well, if high-grade chemical weapons are a routine part of your equipment, and their use a routine part of your tactics, then you wouldn't be taking the sort of job presented in Ghost Cartels in the first place, would you? You'd probably be terrorizing some hapless civilians out in war-torn China and living off the loot.


I'd argue that people who might pull out high end chemical weapons in the right circumstance are exactly the sort of people who will become the high threat response team for an up and coming international drug cartel.
Bira
QUOTE (DWC @ Apr 11 2010, 11:10 AM) *
I'd argue that people who might pull out high end chemical weapons in the right circumstance are exactly the sort of people who will become the high threat response team for an up and coming international drug cartel.


Nah, chemical weapons aren't really something I'd associate with organized crime syndicates. They're more of a military/crazed warlord/psychotic terrorist thing - those are the kind of people I can see making an area inhabitable for years just to take out some opposition. Crime syndicates top out at missile launchers, and they don't carry those around everywhere, either.

The "Battle of Kowloon" didn't even start out as a "high threat response" situation did it? IIRC, it starts as a simple bodyguard job while a cartel member negotiated with a Triad. Not the sort of think you would bring WMDs to, or even heavy weapons.

I agree with the argument that PCs should have a number of options on how to resolve the situation, but I don't think making some of those options ("let's stand our ground and kill them all!") less than optimal is railroading. Shadowrun does follow action-movie conventions, but it's still not the best game for those who want to glory in ther army-killing, god-slaying power (that's Exalted smile.gif).
kjones
It seems that use of chemical weapons like that would also wipe out everyone on your side, including the guy that you're supposed to be protecting, which is why you're in Kowloon in the first place. You'd also be contaminating the triad's entire stash of tempo.

You could just nuke the place, too... I think using chemical weapons in Kowloon would be like curing a headache by chopping off your head.

EDIT: Bira, I understand what you're saying, but I get the sense that Kowloon is always kind of a HTR situation, if you know what I mean.
FlakJacket
QUOTE (Bira @ Apr 11 2010, 03:50 PM) *
The "Battle of Kowloon" didn't even start out as a "high threat response" situation did it? IIRC, it starts as a simple bodyguard job while a cartel member negotiated with a Triad. Not the sort of think you would bring WMDs to, or even heavy weapons.

Because drug deals located in wretched hives of scum and villainy never go bad? Considering the location and the situation - IIRC the Triads had been sold bad drugs so they might think they're being screwed, plus the competition that Tempo was squeezing out would be rather annoyed - I wouldn't go into something like that with less than submachine guns/carbines and non-lethal grenades. But that's just our group. smile.gif
Saint Sithney
I suppose it would depend on the game, but I've seen just as many combat monsters carry around a last-ditch Gas Grenade of Unholy Warcrime as I've seen fill an emergency slot on their autoinjector with Nitro or K-10. Thing is that Chlorine and Phosgene gas aren't exactly hard to come by, so trying to keep it from a characters grasp is an exercise in "because I say so" GMing.

Also, 3 hours of chemical activity is hardly years. Concrete isn't exactly the sort of surface which crusts over.


But that was just an extreme example of crowd control because it would deny an entire 10 meter radius area to all attackers for 30 minutes and terrify any attacker capable of reason. Something like Breathtaker could just as easily deny an area to attackers without the risks of a strange dispersal causing your allies to drown in their own blood.
Bira
QUOTE (FlakJacket @ Apr 11 2010, 07:51 PM) *
Because drug deals located in wretched hives of scum and villainy never go bad? Considering the location and the situation - IIRC the Triads had been sold bad drugs so they might think they're being screwed, plus the competition that Tempo was squeezing out would be rather annoyed - I wouldn't go into something like that with less than submachine guns/carbines and non-lethal grenades. But that's just our group. smile.gif


SMGs and grenades are what one would expect in a situation like that, true. Any less and they'd think you're crazy or foolish. By "heavy weapons" I meant things like medium/heavy machine guns, burst-fire grenade launchers and other related weapons. While these things would be helpful in fighting the horde, no one's expecting an attack of that magnitude. If you show up armed like that, people will probably think you're attacking the place, and respond accordingly.

A "high-threat-response" situation, to me, would be going into the Triad safehouse and rescuing someone when the attack is already in progress. That would be ample justification for bringing the heaviest weapons and armor you can get your hands on, but even then WMDs like Whitestar are overkill.
Patrick the Gnome
QUOTE (Bira @ Apr 11 2010, 06:09 PM) *
SMGs and grenades are what one would expect in a situation like that, true. Any less and they'd think you're crazy or foolish. By "heavy weapons" I meant things like medium/heavy machine guns, burst-fire grenade launchers and other related weapons. While these things would be helpful in fighting the horde, no one's expecting an attack of that magnitude. If you show up armed like that, people will probably think you're attacking the place, and respond accordingly.

A "high-threat-response" situation, to me, would be going into the Triad safehouse and rescuing someone when the attack is already in progress. That would be ample justification for bringing the heaviest weapons and armor you can get your hands on, but even then WMDs like Whitestar are overkill.


That seems pretty strict to me. I commonly play characters who use assault rifles and grenade launchers on a regular basis. They don't have the weapons on them most of the time but that doesn't stop them from keeping them in the hidden compartment of their car. No matter what kind of run your supposed to be on, having your "when mobs of crazy drugged up psycopaths start attacking me" gun at easy access is essential. Nothing says crowd control like a Barret Model 121 modded for full auto.
Bira
QUOTE (Patrick the Gnome @ Apr 11 2010, 08:33 PM) *
That seems pretty strict to me. I commonly play characters who use assault rifles and grenade launchers on a regular basis. They don't have the weapons on them most of the time but that doesn't stop them from keeping them in the hidden compartment of their car. No matter what kind of run your supposed to be on, having your "when mobs of crazy drugged up psycopaths start attacking me" gun at easy access is essential. Nothing says crowd control like a Barret Model 121 modded for full auto.


Keeping your heavier weapons out of sight is a valid tactic. It's carrying them with you when you enter the stronghold full of jumpy Triad goons that's the problem.

Of course, when the crazy drugged up psycopaths start attacking you, your car and all the heavy ordnance therein are now lost in the middle of the crowd, while you're inside the stronghold. That could be an interesting challenge, or just a "D'oh!" moment, depending on whether you're crazy enough to brave the psychos and try recovering your guns.
Patrick the Gnome
QUOTE (Bira @ Apr 11 2010, 07:31 PM) *
Keeping your heavier weapons out of sight is a valid tactic. It's carrying them with you when you enter the stronghold full of jumpy Triad goons that's the problem.

Of course, when the crazy drugged up psycopaths start attacking you, your car and all the heavy ordnance therein are now lost in the middle of the crowd, while you're inside the stronghold. That could be an interesting challenge, or just a "D'oh!" moment, depending on whether you're crazy enough to brave the psychos and try recovering your guns.


Yes. Yes I am.
AngelisStorm
That is what Sliverguns modded with FA for suppressive fire is for. cyber.gif
Dumori
You put you gear in one of those air drop supply drones. Of shit we need the big guns fast press a button on your com and air dropped supplies. Hell done right you could even have a man severent that will pack it with what you need.
Dixie Flatline
QUOTE (Patrick the Gnome @ Apr 11 2010, 03:33 PM) *
That seems pretty strict to me. I commonly play characters who use assault rifles and grenade launchers on a regular basis. They don't have the weapons on them most of the time but that doesn't stop them from keeping them in the hidden compartment of their car. No matter what kind of run your supposed to be on, having your "when mobs of crazy drugged up psycopaths start attacking me" gun at easy access is essential. Nothing says crowd control like a Barret Model 121 modded for full auto.


That's great and fine. However, if the Kowloon Walled City is anything like it's historical counterpart, you A) Couldn't drive a car into the neighborhood and B) Even if you could, again, if we're using the historical Kowloon as a reference, the buildings were so shoddily built that you very well might end up bringing down an entire section of the neighborhood if you start slinging explosive weaponry around.

I allow my players to bring all the nasty weapons they want to a party. However, I have explained to them the concept of escalation. I call it "do you really want to open that door?"

Breaking out WMD-level weapons for crowd control might be super effective, but let's assume that at least one person with some brains is going to witness or remember the shadowrunners doing this. There's a potential for gaining a reputation. My question is, and always has been, "Do you want to be known as the mercenary willing to do XYZ because it makes his life easier?" where XYZ can be anything from lethal force to genocide.

For example, in general, in my game, when hackers go head to head against each other, they tend to refrain from Black Ice. It's a consideration since life as a hacker can be nasty, brutish, and short anyway. Sort of the way a captured ship captain in the fighting age of sail would be treated with respect and dignity. The hacker in my game knew this and decided to pull out black ice on an NPC hacker at one point for no real reason. "Are you sure you want that reputation?" I asked. "Yeah sure whatever" she replied. Well, she *didn't* kill the hacker, and the hacker spread her reputation far and wide. She had put up the online equivalent of Jolly Roger, and had a miserable time of it as her contacts dried up and she got black-listed in the community and was attacked whenever she made herself well-known. She eventually retired the character because her reputation was too tainted. Her next character paid attention to the concept of escalation however.

So my question would be to the player pulling out the gas canisters, "do you really want the reputation of being the shadowrunner who is willing to commit genocide and use WMDs?" If so, it's going to be a short, short career in my game. Contacts will dry up, and it wouldn't be surprising if someone found out where the character lived and blew the entire apartment up or something equally as violent and sudden.
Saint Sithney
QUOTE (Dumori @ Apr 11 2010, 07:13 PM) *
You put you gear in one of those air drop supply drones. Of shit we need the big guns fast press a button on your com and air dropped supplies. Hell done right you could even have a man severent that will pack it with what you need.


Federated-Boeing Kull. Possibly the smartest 10k a team can spend.
Manunancy
QUOTE (Dixie Flatline @ Apr 12 2010, 06:17 AM) *
So my question would be to the player pulling out the gas canisters, "do you really want the reputation of being the shadowrunner who is willing to commit genocide and use WMDs?" If so, it's going to be a short, short career in my game. Contacts will dry up, and it wouldn't be surprising if someone found out where the character lived and blew the entire apartment up or something equally as violent and sudden.


I wouldn't be that harsh - even if the character's regular contacts will dry up, other will come to replace them - of course those will probbly not be what the player would like to be associated with. There's still a definite need for nasty peoples to inflict even nastier things on others. Clearing some peice of real estate of it's squatters, terrorzing some natives into getting along with your business proposals, that sort of things.
It's ugly, it's nasty and it wil get you hated. Just the things for which you need someone with an ugly repute, nasty habits and who'se already hated enough that an adition to that hate won't matter much.

Of course it also opens the 'target for vrey violent reprisals' can of worms, but who said life is easy...
last_of_the_great_mikeys
QUOTE (Ancient History @ Apr 10 2010, 05:06 PM) *
It was originally planned that the runner that actually "killed" a Yama King would actually gain the Cursed Karma quality, but that seemed a touch overkill.


I'm really glad you did not do this. It is unfair to punish players for a hard earned victory with such a direct character change. Have I mentioned that I loathe deus ex machina? That said, if you balanced it out with an equal amount of positive quality points then that would be acceptable.

toturi
QUOTE (Ancient History @ Apr 11 2010, 09:06 AM) *
It was originally planned that the runner that actually "killed" a Yama King would actually gain the Cursed Karma quality, but that seemed a touch overkill.

As an aside, where do I find this Cursed Karma quality? Or is it a whole new one just for Ghost Cartels?
Ol' Scratch
He likely meant Bad Luck. It used to be called Cursed Karma, and Bad Karma was a completely different flaw.

Additionally, it would have been a fine repercussion for killing a Yama King if, and only if, it was temporary; a residual "charge" of mana the spirit left upon its defeat. Lasting something like one hour per Force point or something similar. I agree, however, that forcing a permanent negative quality -- especially one of that magnitude -- on a character simply for doing what they were intended or felt obligated to do, is very bad form.
Saint Sithney
QUOTE (Manunancy @ Apr 11 2010, 11:28 PM) *
I wouldn't be that harsh - even if the character's regular contacts will dry up, other will come to replace them - of course those will probbly not be what the player would like to be associated with. There's still a definite need for nasty peoples to inflict even nastier things on others. Clearing some peice of real estate of it's squatters, terrorzing some natives into getting along with your business proposals, that sort of things.
It's ugly, it's nasty and it wil get you hated. Just the things for which you need someone with an ugly repute, nasty habits and who'se already hated enough that an adition to that hate won't matter much.

Of course it also opens the 'target for vrey violent reprisals' can of worms, but who said life is easy...


Honestly, the efficiency of gas is the only difference between it and just shooting people until entire hallways become blocked full of piled bodies, and again, there are crowd dispersal gasses which are completely debilitating while remaining less than lethal. These would be far easier to keep around in the first place and would detract very little from the argument at hand, namely that 1000 of the same type of enemy with the same weakness can be defeated in the same manner.

So, using a less than lethal gas to avoid collateral damage in such a densely packed civilian area, you can still deny whole areas to the assaulting force with applications of Breathtaker and hold out until they start burning the buildings down around you, which is going to result in catastrophic loss of life anyway. Though, if anything, the use of unbalancing force generally saves lives. If two forces think they are fighting at the same strength they will fight much longer and have much higher losses. If one side obviously holds the advantage, the fight ends as quickly as the losing side can retreat. WMDs save lives by removing the hope of victory. At least that's what Harry Truman would have us believe... And, orders or no orders - drugs or no drugs, if you see the people ahead of you drowning in their own blood and dying with silent screams on their agonized faces, you might just call for a retreat.
toturi
One other nitpick I would like to make: If giving a fixed figure is too limiting, perhaps a ballpark figure for the number of attackers would be good.

One of the ways you don't have to kill everyone is that once a certain threshold is reached the opposition backs off and licks their wounds. The mob has no numbers. Theorectically it doesn't matter how many you kill, they never back off, the GM has an infinity clone machine churning these guys out. Hell, you could kill the entire population of Kowloon worth of gangsters but they still keep coming until you are overrun. There should be a limit to the amount of opposition the GM can send in such a scenario.
Demonseed Elite
I'm not really going to argue anyone's ideas of how the encounter can go, because different groups will handle it differently. We pretty much expect that in any campaign adventure we write.

But no, you can't drive a car into the Kowloon Walled City. Not a chance. nyahnyah.gif
kjones
Those of you advocating chemical weapons have yet to explain how you avoid affecting your own side (including the guy you're there to protect). Isn't that usually the problem with those things? Never know which way the wind will blow.
DWC
QUOTE (kjones @ Apr 12 2010, 07:55 AM) *
Those of you advocating chemical weapons have yet to explain how you avoid affecting your own side (including the guy you're there to protect). Isn't that usually the problem with those things? Never know which way the wind will blow.


Whitestar is a bit much. I'd go with breathtaker gas, which a simple gas mask protects you from.
Angelone
Fans, using rotodrones as fans... That do anything for you? grinbig.gif

My (edit) group (/edit) had a drone (Stormcloud I think) that warned us ahead of time and we were able to mount a long enough defense that the horde got decimated between us and the reinforcments the BCs called. Our rigger had a field day with his flying drones.
Ascalaphus
If you're carrying chemical weapons, what are the odds you'll also be carrying hazmat equipment?
Grinder
Players thinking ahead? grinbig.gif
Chrome Tiger
QUOTE (Dixie Flatline @ Apr 12 2010, 12:17 AM) *
I allow my players to bring all the nasty weapons they want to a party. However, I have explained to them the concept of escalation. I call it "do you really want to open that door?"


Exactly. I like to use the North Hollywood shootout/bank robbery as an example. Two bank robbers, HEAVILY armed and armored, basically walked away from a bank they robbed. They rained lead down on anything that looked like a cop. The police, armed with service pistols and other light firearms with regular ammo, did not stand a chance. They called in SWAT which had the weaponry needed. They also went to a nearby gun store and loaded up on AR-15s and ammo that would penetrate the armor. The police brought in bigger guns and took the robbers out.

In Shadowrun, I like to think that if heavily armed criminals are reported to be causing a ruckus, the police would instantly respond in kind and would not need to loot a gun store to do it.

However, since Kowloon is a sort of 'no mans land', Hong Kong police may or may not respond at all, let alone in force. It would also depend on the amount of pocket lining the Triads are putting into police pockets. Who knows. Perhaps if things got bad enough, the police would just seal up the city again and let things work out rather than jump into the line of fire themselves.
Angelone
If players have access to chemical weapons and they don't have access to hazmat gear something is very wrong. It's definately a wtf??? situation.
Ol' Scratch
Is there something preventing more old school solutions? You know, simple things like Molotov cocktails, creating barriers (be they created manually, by spell, or by spirit), etc. Or is Kowloon a dry city or something? And what's preventing them from locking themselves into a sturdy looking building, rigging some quick and dirty booby traps with grenades and trap wires or whatever, and then sneaking upstairs and trying to escape by roof? You know, stuff like that.

I really should read this scenario one day.
Angelone
There's nothing preventing those solutions. It seems those are the "envisioned" way to run the scenario. I do remember Molotovs, makeshift barriers, and cs as we were going through it. That might have just been how my gm described what was going on in the background.
Manunancy
QUOTE (Saint Sithney @ Apr 12 2010, 10:56 AM) *
Honestly, the efficiency of gas is the only difference between it and just shooting people until entire hallways become blocked full of piled bodies, and again, there are crowd dispersal gasses which are completely debilitating while remaining less than lethal. These would be far easier to keep around in the first place and would detract very little from the argument at hand, namely that 1000 of the same type of enemy with the same weakness can be defeated in the same manner.

So, using a less than lethal gas to avoid collateral damage in such a densely packed civilian area, you can still deny whole areas to the assaulting force with applications of Breathtaker and hold out until they start burning the buildings down around you, which is going to result in catastrophic loss of life anyway. Though, if anything, the use of unbalancing force generally saves lives. If two forces think they are fighting at the same strength they will fight much longer and have much higher losses. If one side obviously holds the advantage, the fight ends as quickly as the losing side can retreat. WMDs save lives by removing the hope of victory. At least that's what Harry Truman would have us believe... And, orders or no orders - drugs or no drugs, if you see the people ahead of you drowning in their own blood and dying with silent screams on their agonized faces, you might just call for a retreat.


In the previous discussion, what had been envisioned was to dump a lethal chemical, not incapacitating, weapon on a bunch of attackers in a very crowded urban area. Compared to a gaz attack, even massed unaimed, gunfire is a precision attack. As an icing on the cake, considering the properties of chlorine and phosgene, survivors are likely to end up with major respiratory problems. That translates as collateral damages in lot jobs, and very nasty ones to boot...

My comment bas basically to illustate the point that ending up with a repute for being far more destructive and nasty than the job requires ebcause you don't care or maybe even enjoy it won't mean you run completely out of contacts or jobs. But rather that you'll end up with jobs and contacts as nasty and brutal as the repute.
Angelone
After Dr. Funkenstein's post I started imagining a SR version of Home Alone. Where the runners barracade themselves in one of the buildings and defend themselves with pots, pans, bowling balls, and improvised traps. I'm fairly certain that would not end well for them however.

As for the gas, I could definately see the lure of using it in such a situation. It's your team, let's say 6 people, the BCs (30ish iirc), and about 20 or 30 junkies vs. a freaking horde of drugged up enemies. In such a situation the use of chemical weapons would definately turn the tide, provided you had the countermeasures of course. Yeah, you don't have to use lethal measures, but where's the fun in that?

I was actually pretty shocked at how unsecured the place was. No gun emplacements, no explosive booby traps (claymores and such), not even burning oil or anything like that on the roofs.

kjones
QUOTE (Angelone @ Apr 12 2010, 01:32 PM) *
After Dr. Funkenstein's post I started imagining a SR version of Home Alone. Where the runners barracade themselves in one of the buildings and defend themselves with pots, pans, bowling balls, and improvised traps. I'm fairly certain that would not end well for them however.

As for the gas, I could definately see the lure of using it in such a situation. It's your team, let's say 6 people, the BCs (30ish iirc), and about 20 or 30 junkies vs. a freaking horde of drugged up enemies. In such a situation the use of chemical weapons would definately turn the tide, provided you had the countermeasures of course. Yeah, you don't have to use lethal measures, but where's the fun in that?

I was actually pretty shocked at how unsecured the place was. No gun emplacements, no explosive booby traps (claymores and such), not even burning oil or anything like that on the roofs.


This is Kowloon - if they had any defenses, they'd be stolen faster than your tires in Detroit.
Chrome Tiger
QUOTE (kjones @ Apr 12 2010, 01:36 PM) *
This is Kowloon - if they had any defenses, they'd be stolen faster than your tires in Detroit.


Wait... There are people left in Detroit to steal tires?!?!?
Wandering One
QUOTE (Chrome Tiger @ Apr 12 2010, 11:43 AM) *
Wait... There are people left in Detroit to steal tires?!?!?


Rare tire-eating devil rats that adapted to survive?
Demonseed Elite
QUOTE (Dr. Funkenstein @ Apr 12 2010, 11:28 AM) *
Is there something preventing more old school solutions? You know, simple things like Molotov cocktails, creating barriers (be they created manually, by spell, or by spirit), etc. Or is Kowloon a dry city or something? And what's preventing them from locking themselves into a sturdy looking building, rigging some quick and dirty booby traps with grenades and trap wires or whatever, and then sneaking upstairs and trying to escape by roof? You know, stuff like that.

I really should read this scenario one day.


Kowloon is certainly not a dry city! In fact, you probably wouldn't need Molotovs. Just put a fuse in a bottle of the local swill, light, and throw. rotfl.gif
Ol' Scratch
S'what I was thinking. I was just a bit boggled by how people were trying to come up with all these weird, overcomplicated solutions to a relatively simple problem...
Angelone
QUOTE (Dr. Funkenstein @ Apr 12 2010, 01:06 PM) *
S'what I was thinking. I was just a bit boggled by how people were trying to come up with all these weird, overcomplicated solutions to a relatively simple problem...


Cause it's fun love.gif I wouldn't say it's over complicated, maybe ruthless and bloodthirsty, but not complicated. What strikes you as such?
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