Dumpshock Forums > CGL Speculation #5

MindandPen

Apr 13 2010, 06:11 AM

QUOTE (Ancient History @ Apr 12 2010, 06:09 PM)

...Shadowrun is bigger than just Catalyst...

This is, I think, the heart and soul of the emotion that this thread has brought forth. It is a game that has survived and endured and is something we have all enjoyed for 20 years. We have seen it grow up, and for many of the freelancers, I suspect it is much like watching a child grow up as you have played such a fundamental part of it. This is also the reason why it will endure, no matter what happens.

QUOTE (Ancient History @ Apr 12 2010, 06:09 PM)

Which is all a very long way to say: at this point, there is nothing to do but wait and see. I would not ask anyone here to take what I say at face value, but I think I've made my biases clear. If there is any underlying motive, it is a desire that no one else need be warned, suspended, or banned due to these threads. As you post, I would ask you all to consider that we are all making our own judgments as to what is true and what is false, and respond with the understanding that the actual facts of the matter are currently few. We deal mainly with the effects and implications.

Amen brother.

-M&P

Megu

Apr 13 2010, 06:22 AM

QUOTE (JM Hardy @ Apr 12 2010, 10:38 PM)

Second (though in truth this is happening at the same time as the first thing), I'm working to get products that were on the verge of coming out, out. That means, in essentially this order, DotA 2, Corp Guide, Sixth World Almanac, Runner's Toolkit. That's where my efforts have been focused recently.

After that will come the books that have been drafted to some degree: War!, Attitude, the conclusion of Dawn of the Artifacts, and some new adventures. And then we venture into new territory.

Jason H.

Wait, what's Attitude about? Has this been mentioned before?

hermit

Apr 13 2010, 06:40 AM

QUOTE

Entire sections were simply lifted whole from previous Seattle sourcebooks. The same goes with some of the "setting" locations: Feral City's write up for Lagos leaned heavily on Cyberpirates!, for example.

It did? I only remember Cyberpirates making a passing note about how Lagos has a semi-working matrix network, that's all. Cyberpirates focused on Ghana and Cote d'Ivoire. Lagos was a new writeup?

I agree the Seattle book was in parts mere copypasting of former Seattlepublications, but with two Seattle publications covering the exact same subject, it wouldbe strange to expect a suddenly totally new setting? I'm certain the outcry about making Seattle something 'new and exciting' would have been greater.

I am not saying it's the best since sliced bread, but where was Lagos a copypaste job?

Cardul

Apr 13 2010, 07:04 AM

QUOTE (hermit @ Apr 13 2010, 01:40 AM)

It did? I only remember Cyberpirates making a passing note about how Lagos has a semi-working matrix network, that's all. Cyberpirates focused on Ghana and Cote d'Ivoire. Lagos was a new writeup?

I agree the Seattle book was in parts mere copypasting of former Seattlepublications, but with two Seattle publications covering the exact same subject, it wouldbe strange to expect a suddenly totally new setting? I'm certain the outcry about making Seattle something 'new and exciting' would have been greater.

I am not saying it's the best since sliced bread, but where was Lagos a copypaste job?

Honestly? Seattle 2072, which I am reading through my gen-con dtf version now, does not seem to be
a copy-and-paste at all...then again, I never got New Seattle. That there might be similarities, or the same places
discussed using similar descriptions, is understandable. However, really, I do not think it was a "copy and paste" job.

hermit

Apr 13 2010, 07:13 AM

QUOTE (Cardul @ Apr 13 2010, 09:04 AM)

Honestly? Seattle 2072, which I am reading through my gen-con dtf version now, does not seem to be
a copy-and-paste at all...then again, I never got New Seattle. That there might be similarities, or the same places
discussed using similar descriptions, is understandable. However, really, I do not think it was a "copy and paste" job.

It has sections that seemed very similar to Runner Havens' Seattle writeup, and many of the places and firms visited were from the original Seattle Sourcebook. I think that could be expected, though. It's an okay book, all in all, if you ask me, but as always, YMMV.

Cain

Apr 13 2010, 07:37 AM

QUOTE (JM Hardy @ Apr 12 2010, 06:38 PM)

Well, in the tags here is the 800-word article I recently wrote about Why Shadowrun Is Awesome Now. Have at it!

[ Spoiler ]

It's good to know you've got postive things to say about Shadowrun. However, I asked for positive things about Catalyst Game Labs.

QUOTE (Enin @ Apr 12 2010, 06:52 PM)

In all fairness, Cain asked JH to say something good about CGL. Whether or not that's what Cain was looking for is another matter entirely.

Exactly. There's been pages upon pages of negative things being said about the company. Let's hear some positive things. JH, I believe you love Shadowrun, and have a passion for it. Please show us your passion for the company producing it.

Dread Moores

Apr 13 2010, 07:37 AM

QUOTE (Cardul @ Apr 13 2010, 02:04 AM)

Honestly? Seattle 2072, which I am reading through my gen-con dtf version now, does not seem to be
a copy-and-paste at all...then again, I never got New Seattle. That there might be similarities, or the same places
discussed using similar descriptions, is understandable. However, really, I do not think it was a "copy and paste" job.

Yeah, that was my thoughts on it as well. Similar, definitely, and expected. Copy and paste job? It didn't seem that way to me.

Lansdren

Apr 13 2010, 11:27 AM

QUOTE (Cain @ Apr 13 2010, 08:37 AM)

It's good to know you've got postive things to say about Shadowrun. However, I asked for positive things about Catalyst Game Labs.

Exactly. There's been pages upon pages of negative things being said about the company. Let's hear some positive things. JH, I believe you love Shadowrun, and have a passion for it. Please show us your passion for the company producing it.

I have to agree here it would be nice to see something positive about CGL,

The game is great but then we all know that

JM Hardy

Apr 13 2010, 12:37 PM

QUOTE (Cain @ Apr 13 2010, 02:37 AM)

It's good to know you've got postive things to say about Shadowrun. However, I asked for positive things about Catalyst Game Labs.

Exactly. There's been pages upon pages of negative things being said about the company. Let's hear some positive things. JH, I believe you love Shadowrun, and have a passion for it. Please show us your passion for the company producing it.

What's positive about CGL is that they are the ones putting out the products I listed. There is a commitment to putting out beautiful, quality products, and that has raised the profile of the game lines they manage. I focused on the products, because that's what we do--generate product. That's what matters for the games.

Jason H.

Clutch9800

Apr 13 2010, 01:06 PM

Post withdrawn. I honestly didn't mean to do any pot stirring.

Clutch ⨪

Redjack

Apr 13 2010, 01:18 PM

QUOTE (Clutch9800 @ Apr 13 2010, 07:06 AM)

We are led to believe that it went something like this:

Actually we have no real idea what went on besides the exact words told first person by each party involved. This continual 'stirring of the pot' is doing no good and simply continues to inflame both sides as well as those of us caught in the middle.

David Hill

Apr 13 2010, 01:27 PM

QUOTE (Clutch9800 @ Apr 13 2010, 08:06 AM)

Well,

One of the things that I am very interested in is the allegations of falsifying reports to the licensor.

Since there are most assuredly at least two sides to every story, one must assume that the truth of the matter lies somewhere in between.

On the one hand, we have an ex-employee alleging that L.L.C. demanded that she falsify earnings reports to Topps. We are led to believe that it went something like this:

...

Clutch ⨪

How very... Reasonable.

Are you sure you're on the same internet I am? Because that's not how people on the internet I'm familiar with discuss things.

JM Hardy

Apr 13 2010, 01:31 PM

QUOTE (BlueMax @ Apr 13 2010, 12:34 AM)

Jason,
I had a long day. Where was "get more material to playtesters"? and "with plenty of time for feedback"?

/me ducks
/me zags
/me zigs

BlueMax
/ bet you thought I would zig first

It was implied it the "products I'm working on" section.

Jason H.

otakusensei

Apr 13 2010, 01:58 PM

QUOTE (JM Hardy @ Apr 13 2010, 12:38 AM)

The thing is, even before this entire situation broke, we did not give out information about product timing until we had a street date for them. There are too many things that can delay a product as it moves forward, and past experience had shown that announcing a date and then not meeting it proved very frustrating to fans. Now, of course, the ideal would be announcing a date and then consistently hitting it, but as I said there are a lot of variables out there, and one inevitably jumps up and bites you in the butt.

The basic order of things is this: First, we are working to get already published or completed books back on sale. Checks have been sent out to help that process, but it's not enough to mail checks; we have to wait until they have cleared before we can move forward. In cases where more than just checks are needed, we're working to get the advice and knowledge we need to move forward with what we can.

Second (though in truth this is happening at the same time as the first thing), I'm working to get products that were on the verge of coming out, out. That means, in essentially this order, DotA 2, Corp Guide, Sixth World Almanac, Runner's Toolkit. That's where my efforts have been focused recently.

After that will come the books that have been drafted to some degree: War!, Attitude, the conclusion of Dawn of the Artifacts, and some new adventures. And then we venture into new territory.

As I have said before, I am working to get product out. That will continue to be the case until someone in an official capacity tells me I shouldn't do that anymore. Also, I only discussed my activities. Management is working on important activities such as paying freelancers, dealing with the license, finding personnel as needed, etc. etc. But again, there are details that, for many reasons (such as: they're confidential, there's legal stuff involved, we have policy against committing to dates before products are ready, and there's stuff I just plain don't know) won't come out in this forum.

Jason H.

I see what you're doing there, Jason. I understand what you're saying and I respect that it's as far as you can go. But it doesn't address the problems CGL has had from the get go in getting product out. That's part of the reason there is so much animosity now. We were all (most fans I'm guessing) scratching our heads watching a very drawn out release schedule for product. Those of us who knew freelancers heard about how hard it was to get paid by CGL. The information we had added up to a fear that Shadowrun wasn't making enough money to fund a robust release schedule.

Then Frank shows up with an accusation that someone has been taking money from the system for years and suddenly all that built up fear and disappointment has a target. We get a name, an MO, practically everything we need to make the conclusion that there is someone responsible for hurting our game. Because we don't have the license, we don't plan or publish books, but as fans we feel like this is our game and frankly without us it would just be a very expensive idea.

Then we see this mass exodus of talent from CGL. That was the most damning bit for me, and the heart of why I asked for info. All this creative talent, people I have come to associate with quality, are now gone. Putting aside the accusations and rumors of who did what, it leaves the impression of a considerable brain drain at CGL.

What I want to know is who and what is going on now. Right now I'm dubious of anything that CGL is about to put out. I'm disinclined to purchase from CGL for two reasons, outrage at the accusations and fear of a loss of quality. One of those you can't do anything about and I respect that. However if things are as rosy as you state they are you could share with us a look at the quality of the work being done. Drop some names we might recognize but not be aware of. Let us look at some of their previous work and show us why you think the line is in such good hands.

Without that all we have is smoke and marketing spin. People could be nicer about how they say it, but at this point I don't expect people to call a duck anything but a duck. I'm not asking for finished product, or previews, but that would be nice. Whatever happens with the game it's in your hands now and you've stated that work is moving forward. Let us speculate on that work rather than take shots in the dark on the quality and if anything will ever be published again with the CGL badge. At this point we have nothing but ammo and time.

Chrome Tiger

Apr 13 2010, 02:09 PM

QUOTE (JM Hardy @ Apr 13 2010, 09:31 AM)

It was implied it the "products I'm working on" section.

Jason H.

Yeah, I can use some more SR playtesting. My brain is getting Eclipse Phased to the nth degree. Not that I mind, really, just saying...

Cain

Apr 13 2010, 02:31 PM

QUOTE (JM Hardy @ Apr 13 2010, 05:37 AM)

What's positive about CGL is that they are the ones putting out the products I listed. There is a commitment to putting out beautiful, quality products, and that has raised the profile of the game lines they manage. I focused on the products, because that's what we do--generate product. That's what matters for the games.

I appreciate you taking the time to answer, and thank you for your response.

That being said....

Come on, is the fact that CGL is putting out quality product all that's good about the company? No talk about company charitable events, no talk about your new, quality talent-- nothing but good words about products? This is an opportunity to undo some of the damage done-- tell us why Catalyst isn't as bad as everyone sounds. Head off the oncoming boycott people here are talking about; make us feel good about Catalyst. Loren L. Coleman has been charged with fraud, embezzlement, and willful ethical violations, plus possibly forcing out several people I respect. That's bad. Let's hear something good for once.

augmentin

Apr 13 2010, 02:33 PM

[Warning, the following is "rampant speculation:"]

Who thinks Shadowrun would be better off in Posthuman's hands?

Who else is there?

(Besides CGL, of course.)

otakusensei

Apr 13 2010, 02:45 PM

QUOTE (augmentin @ Apr 13 2010, 09:33 AM)

[Warning, the following is "rampant speculation:"]

Who thinks Shadowrun would be better off in Posthuman's hands?

Who else is there?

(Besides CGL, of course.)

It kind of was in Posthuman's hands. During that time I felt like the game went through a Renaissance. I've never seen Shadowrun at a point where it can attract and maintain the fan base that it does right now. The rules set is just right to please veterans while catching folks who want something on par with White Wolf or a bit less structured than 4th ed. D&D. Add to that the modern meets fantasy meets cyberpunk setting and there's something there for everyone. Right now is a great time for Shadowrun.

I would love to see Adam working on Shadowrun again at some point. Dude is mad talented and while I'm glad to hear that he isn't bored these days I can't wait to see how this all shakes out simply to find out who's working on Shadowrun.

nezumi

Apr 13 2010, 02:48 PM

Except neither CGL, Post-Human, or even White Jesus get to make that decision. It's based off of Topps. Topps made, IMO, a good decision moving it to CGL, and that suggests to me there's some sense of what makes Shadowrun a good product (so I'm really not worried about a d20 version), but they're still a business selling things to the highest bidder. No offense to Adam, but I'd be surprised if Post-Human could afford the license.

JM Hardy

Apr 13 2010, 02:49 PM

QUOTE (otakusensei @ Apr 13 2010, 08:58 AM)

I see what you're doing there, Jason. I understand what you're saying and I respect that it's as far as you can go. But it doesn't address the problems CGL has had from the get go in getting product out. That's part of the reason there is so much animosity now. We were all (most fans I'm guessing) scratching our heads watching a very drawn out release schedule for product. Those of us who knew freelancers heard about how hard it was to get paid by CGL. The information we had added up to a fear that Shadowrun wasn't making enough money to fund a robust release schedule.

Then Frank shows up with an accusation that someone has been taking money from the system for years and suddenly all that built up fear and disappointment has a target. We get a name, an MO, practically everything we need to make the conclusion that there is someone responsible for hurting our game. Because we don't have the license, we don't plan or publish books, but as fans we feel like this is our game and frankly without us it would just be a very expensive idea.

Then we see this mass exodus of talent from CGL. That was the most damning bit for me, and the heart of why I asked for info. All this creative talent, people I have come to associate with quality, are now gone. Putting aside the accusations and rumors of who did what, it leaves the impression of a considerable brain drain at CGL.

What I want to know is who and what is going on now. Right now I'm dubious of anything that CGL is about to put out. I'm disinclined to purchase from CGL for two reasons, outrage at the accusations and fear of a loss of quality. One of those you can't do anything about and I respect that. However if things are as rosy as you state they are you could share with us a look at the quality of the work being done. Drop some names we might recognize but not be aware of. Let us look at some of their previous work and show us why you think the line is in such good hands.

Without that all we have is smoke and marketing spin. People could be nicer about how they say it, but at this point I don't expect people to call a duck anything but a duck. I'm not asking for finished product, or previews, but that would be nice. Whatever happens with the game it's in your hands now and you've stated that work is moving forward. Let us speculate on that work rather than take shots in the dark on the quality and if anything will ever be published again with the CGL badge. At this point we have nothing but ammo and time.

You have to understand the problems you present in this post, though. Here, and in other places, the basic tenor has been "In the absence of other information, we have to assume the worst." I'm not sure why that is, but I'll set that aside for a moment. Then you ask for names of people working on products, after saying that you are poised to assume the worst.

It may be protective of me, but I have no desire to expose the freelancers who are working for me to a bunch of negativity. I've already seen it happen, and it upsets me greatly. There are freelancers who have a lot of experience with SR, and freelancers who are in the early stages of working for SR. These are people who love SR, who play SR, and who want to find more ways to be involved with SR, which I find totally understandable. Many of them have said a thing or two in the forums--take a look at the Who's Who on Dumpshock thread for some of their names. Some of them have been given poor receptions here and on other forums--not for any work that they have done, but simply because they are new. As I said, that makes me reluctant to just throw names around, because it's not fair to them. If you have misgivings about who is writing Shadowrun, take it out on me. I'm more comfortable with that.

There will, of course, be previews of products as they are ready. Before all this happened, Corp Guide was in its final proofing stages. The great majority of what needs to be rewritten for that book is done, so I'll work to get previews up as soon as possible.

As far as the release schedule goes, there are many, many reasons products get delayed. Finances are only one of them. Missed deadlines, slow editors (I only say that because I was one sometimes), emergencies on one project taking time from another project, and real life interference all play a role in getting projects out, and all of those have played a role in occasionally delaying Catalyst's production schedule. In recent months, though, Running Wild streeted Sept. 25, Seattle 2072 streeted Nov. 10, Vice streeted on Feb. 23; and Dawn of the Artifacts 2 was on the verge of hitting its street date when the current troubles held it up. In the PDF realm, we had 3 Missions released in recent months, along with 10 Jackpointers, 10 Gangs, and some reprints. Is it the ideal pace? Not yet. Are things coming out fairly regularly? I think so, and I hope to get beyond the current problems and return to regular releases.

Jason H.

Bob Lord of Evil

Apr 13 2010, 02:51 PM

QUOTE (otakusensei @ Apr 13 2010, 03:45 PM)

I've never seen Shadowrun at a point where it can attract and maintain the fan base that it does right now.

FASA sales were larger during 3rd edition, however with the drop off the entire industry has seen I can't say that SR sales would have stayed where they were. You don't see half your retail outlets close up shop without sales being affected across the board.

augmentin

Apr 13 2010, 03:01 PM

QUOTE (JM Hardy @ Apr 13 2010, 10:49 AM)

You have to understand the problems you present in this post, though. Here, and in other places, the basic tenor has been "In the absence of other information, we have to assume the worst." I'm not sure why that is, but I'll set that aside for a moment.

Jason H.

Two reasons:
1) human nature to assume the worst about others (while assuming the best about ourselves and our friends/family)
2) Faction A is saying that Faction B kicks puppies and eats babies. Faction B is saying we can't talk about it, but things are good. Don't assume the worst. So naturally, many dumpshockers assume the worst.

You're in a very challenging PR position. It would make an interesting case study in the effects of internet forums on pr crisis management.

imperialus

Apr 13 2010, 03:06 PM

QUOTE (Octopiii @ Apr 12 2010, 11:23 PM)

I agree. The new Seattle book was extremely disappointing. Entire sections were simply lifted whole from previous Seattle sourcebooks. The same goes with some of the "setting" locations: Feral City's write up for Lagos leaned heavily on Cyberpirates!, for example. Continuity is nice, of course, but frankly the parts of the new books I liked were the ones that had already been written for previous editions. I haven't looked at Vice yet, but i'm told it was disappointing, which I can unfortunately see based on recent releases.

I like Catalyst for cleaning up the rules. I'm not so enthused by their other work, however.

Hrm... Not sure I have the same take on this as you. I thought Seattle 2072 was pretty darn good. Sure there are some repetitive bits, I mean every Seattle sourcebook is going to have a writeup on Club Penumbra (an entry I picked largely at random) but just from comparing the entries on Penumbra from Seattle, New Seattle and Seattle 2072 you do get a real sense of how things have changed for the club. In Seattle Club P's entry was all about how it was the hottest place in the plex for runners to find work. In New Seattle, it was about how the Renraku Archeology incident meant that it was overrrun with off duty Renraku security and Metroplex Guard. Not exactly the sort of place a runner would want to look for work. In Seattle 2072 it's about how it's a piece of 'living history' complete with 'retro 49' nights.

Besides, every edition really does need a Seattle sourcebook. After all, new players need to pick up the setting information somewhere.

Ol' Scratch

Apr 13 2010, 03:07 PM

Personally, I think all the attempts at PR is the real source of the problem. I'd just ignore things and dismiss it like I would any other ranting and raving on the Internet, and instead focus on the people who matter through private channels. <shrugs> But hey, the fact that it's still going on and nothing interesting, useful, or even potentially helpful results are occurring makes for some decent reading while I enjoy my popcorn.

augmentin

Apr 13 2010, 03:15 PM

QUOTE (nezumi @ Apr 13 2010, 10:48 AM)

Except neither CGL, Post-Human, or even White Jesus get to make that decision. It's based off of Topps. Topps made, IMO, a good decision moving it to CGL, and that suggests to me there's some sense of what makes Shadowrun a good product (so I'm really not worried about a d20 version), but they're still a business selling things to the highest bidder. No offense to Adam, but I'd be surprised if Post-Human could afford the license.

What about Jewish Jesus?

(relatively) More seriously: How does that work? Is the initial license payment a prepayment of royalties? If so [begin "rampant speculation:"], if Ira Friedman, VP of Licensing and Publication, or whoever makes these decisions, might make the decision to forgo a large initial liquidity event in return for greater profit over the life of the license. In that scenario, Posthuman could get the license. Topps is a privately held company, so we have no idea what their current cash position is. Michael Eisener is both chairman and an owner, so I think you can safely assume they are well run.

Hey, let's start a dumpshock letter writing campaign. You know, the kind with paper, ink, and a stamp. Tell Topps your opinion of who should get or keep the license:

Topps US
401 York Avenue
Duryea, PA 18642

Warlordtheft

Apr 13 2010, 03:16 PM

QUOTE (JM Hardy @ Apr 12 2010, 05:54 PM)

I didn't say the term was strange--I said it was not cut-and-dry fact. You have your interpretation of it. Others have theirs. All I'm saying is that not everyone will agree that "extreme embezzlement" is the proper label for what happened. Some may feel it is completely appropriate, and that's their right (and to be clear, I'm not going to argue that point one way or the other). But that does not suddenly turn a subjective term into an objective one.

Jason H.

I think what jason is trying to point out is that what happened given the structure of the company was an accounting issue/oversight issue. There is a good chance this is the case, as Loren has yet to be hauled off to jail, or taken to court by his business partners.

tete

Apr 13 2010, 03:30 PM

QUOTE (Pepsi Jedi @ Apr 13 2010, 05:57 AM)

Really? I'd heard that Seattle 2072 was amazing. You're saying alot of it is Cut and pasted? Hurm.....

If you loved reading the first Seattle book you'll love 2072. I can see how someone could think of it as cut and pasted but its more like updated. For example you find out that the street talk about one restaurant was right. There actually were Nagas in the basement and it caused some trouble. I thought it was awesome because Steve took the old street talk and decided what rumors were true and gave you an update on what happened. Its really the only 4e book I own that I have enjoyed cover to cover more or less.

Abschalten

Apr 13 2010, 03:38 PM

Seattle 2072 is seriously getting all this love? I have to say I was pretty bored and disappointed with it. I understand it was more or less the same format as the original Seattle Sourcebook, but you could have called it "Mafia and Yakuza Places." Seemed like every other entry in the book had something to do with the mob or the yaks. Makes for an extremely boring book. Seriously, could they have picked two more OVERUSED organized crime outfits and made them even more so?

Ancient History

Apr 13 2010, 03:59 PM

Maybe you could start a Book Club: Seattle 2072 thread and we could discuss it there?

nezumi

Apr 13 2010, 04:00 PM

QUOTE (augmentin @ Apr 13 2010, 11:15 AM)

What about Jewish Jesus?

Aka Adam Jury

(Don't know if he's Jewish though. Never thought to ask.)

QUOTE

(relatively) More seriously: How does that work? Is the initial license payment a prepayment of royalties?

My understanding as someone in no way involved with the industry, is Topps generally looks to charge a hefty fee for the license, and in exchange, the publishing company gets to write rule books, novels, etc., and publish and sell everything with the Shadowrun name on it (current or previous). This is just what I've gathered from watching these forums, not from any insider knowledge. CLG was established specifically to run Shadowrun in '07, but it was a part of In Media Res, which had already been around for 3-4 years. Whether Topps asked for cash up front, or later in the life, is not clear to me, but IMR had the capital available that Topps knew they would get their money.

Post-Human Studios is pretty new. From my understanding, it's about a year old? It's not running a lot of products (I'm only aware of one RPG), and given their age, they're probably still paying off startup debts. They just won't have the capital to buy Shadowrun, at least not for a few more years.

I'd guess that the Shadowrun license is probably a seven digit number, so it's not exactly pocket change.

Again though, this is all speculation on my part. All knowledgable parties have worked very hard to keep the real numbers close to their collective chests.

QUOTE

If so [begin "rampant speculation:"], if Ira Friedman, VP of Licensing and Publication, or whoever makes these decisions, might make the decision to forgo a large initial liquidity event in return for greater profit over the life of the license.

Usually they'd do that if they had collateral. The question is, firstly, does Post-Human have the collateral to cover that sort of debt, and secondly, would they want to accept it, being still a small shop, running now two systems simultaneously barely months out from under CGL, knowing that if they fail, it swallows up the entire shop and may seriously harm both IPs? Those aren't questions you or I are in a position to answer, or really, properly speculate about.

QUOTE

Hey, let's start a dumpshock letter writing campaign. You know, the kind with paper, ink, and a stamp. Tell Topps your opinion of who should get or keep the license:

As you pointed out, it's run by Eisner. That means they're more likely to worry about the bottom dollar than about keeping alive hopes and dreams

Does PostHuman WANT the SR license? Are they big enough to handle it? Are they big enough to absorb that debt and any possible problems down the road? If they don't, that ends the discussion right there.

Like I said, Topps did well by me. I think they recognize the value of trusting it to passionate writers. But they recognize that because those writers make a product that moves. They recognize the value of people who are eager to make a profit, which is why it ended up with Mr. Coleman in the first place.

Dread Moores

Apr 13 2010, 04:01 PM

QUOTE (augmentin @ Apr 13 2010, 10:15 AM)

What about Jewish Jesus?

If you're not aware, White Jesus is a nickname for Adam Jury. Hence the reference of it with regards to Posthuman.

Edit: Or of course, nezumi could just scoop me. Meanie.

Adam

Apr 13 2010, 04:10 PM

I am not Jewish.

Also, Posthuman Studios (No StudlyCaps, no hyphens

) doesn't have any debt currently. Woot!

(This will probably change shortly, but your support in exchange for sexy intriguing Eclipse Phase materials will prevent that us from staying that way for long.)

emouse

Apr 13 2010, 04:19 PM

QUOTE (otakusensei @ Apr 13 2010, 01:58 PM)

Right now I'm dubious of anything that CGL is about to put out. I'm disinclined to purchase from CGL for two reasons, outrage at the accusations and fear of a loss of quality. One of those you can't do anything about and I respect that. However if things are as rosy as you state they are you could share with us a look at the quality of the work being done. Drop some names we might recognize but not be aware of. Let us look at some of their previous work and show us why you think the line is in such good hands.

Seriously, at this point, the only answer is wait and see. We'll know in relatively short order if CGL will retain the license, and if CGL does get new stuff out, we'll be able to get a look or reviews of it ahead of time.

emouse

Apr 13 2010, 04:23 PM

QUOTE (Cain @ Apr 13 2010, 02:31 PM)

Come on, is the fact that CGL is putting out quality product all that's good about the company?

They're paying some of the freelancers for material that hasn't been published yet?

How well would 'good news' about charity go over with the company still in financial trouble?

augmentin

Apr 13 2010, 04:45 PM

QUOTE (Dread Moores @ Apr 13 2010, 12:01 PM)

If you're not aware, White Jesus is a nickname for Adam Jury. Hence the reference of it with regards to Posthuman.

Ah, my mistake. And here I thought I had a clever response. So, let's review:

1) Everyone loves Adam Jury
2) Everyone loves his layout work
3) Everyone loves what he's done with the SR IP
4) Everyone loves the classy way he's handled this scandalous situation
5) All of the current and former SR freelancers and line developers respect him
6) Evidently, he looks good in a swimsuit
7) Evidently, he's also pretty as a princess
8 ) Evidently, he's the Caucasian version of the Lion of Judah
9) His company has no debt
10) We get Rob Boyle and Brian Cross, too.

Soooo....why wouldn't we want to see the license in Posthuman hands again?

augmentin

Apr 13 2010, 04:54 PM

QUOTE (nezumi @ Apr 13 2010, 12:00 PM)

I'd guess that the Shadowrun license is probably a seven digit number, so it's not exactly pocket change.

Does PostHuman WANT the SR license? Are they big enough to handle it? Are they big enough to absorb that debt and any possible problems down the road? If they don't, that ends the discussion right there.

Like I said, Topps did well by me. I think they recognize the value of trusting it to passionate writers. But they recognize that because those writers make a product that moves. They recognize the value of people who are eager to make a profit, which is why it ended up with Mr. Coleman in the first place.

Trollman quoted a mid-6 figure number, but he's permabanned again, so we'll never get the chance to verify those numbers.

RE: profit motive. I'd venture to guess Jury et. al. are just as happy to make a profit as anyone else. In the case of what Coleman is alleged to have done, I'll refer to Ghandi's seven deadly social sins:
Wealth without Work
Pleasure without Conscience
Science without Humanity
Knowledge without Character
Politics without Principle
Commerce without Morality
Worship without Sacrifice
It's that "without Morality" part that gets you and I would argue is bad for business. Of course, that this point, they're only allegations. EDIT: Not relevant to the current discussion.

otakusensei

Apr 13 2010, 05:08 PM

QUOTE (JM Hardy @ Apr 13 2010, 09:49 AM)

You have to understand the problems you present in this post, though. Here, and in other places, the basic tenor has been "In the absence of other information, we have to assume the worst." I'm not sure why that is, but I'll set that aside for a moment. Then you ask for names of people working on products, after saying that you are poised to assume the worst.

It may be protective of me, but I have no desire to expose the freelancers who are working for me to a bunch of negativity. I've already seen it happen, and it upsets me greatly. There are freelancers who have a lot of experience with SR, and freelancers who are in the early stages of working for SR. These are people who love SR, who play SR, and who want to find more ways to be involved with SR, which I find totally understandable. Many of them have said a thing or two in the forums--take a look at the Who's Who on Dumpshock thread for some of their names. Some of them have been given poor receptions here and on other forums--not for any work that they have done, but simply because they are new. As I said, that makes me reluctant to just throw names around, because it's not fair to them. If you have misgivings about who is writing Shadowrun, take it out on me. I'm more comfortable with that.

There will, of course, be previews of products as they are ready. Before all this happened, Corp Guide was in its final proofing stages. The great majority of what needs to be rewritten for that book is done, so I'll work to get previews up as soon as possible.

As far as the release schedule goes, there are many, many reasons products get delayed. Finances are only one of them. Missed deadlines, slow editors (I only say that because I was one sometimes), emergencies on one project taking time from another project, and real life interference all play a role in getting projects out, and all of those have played a role in occasionally delaying Catalyst's production schedule. In recent months, though, Running Wild streeted Sept. 25, Seattle 2072 streeted Nov. 10, Vice streeted on Feb. 23; and Dawn of the Artifacts 2 was on the verge of hitting its street date when the current troubles held it up. In the PDF realm, we had 3 Missions released in recent months, along with 10 Jackpointers, 10 Gangs, and some reprints. Is it the ideal pace? Not yet. Are things coming out fairly regularly? I think so, and I hope to get beyond the current problems and return to regular releases.

Jason H.

I'm sorry if I sounded too negative with my last post, I was only trying to be clear about my feelings. To be honest with you my post was more directed at Shadowrun as a game line and less at CGL as a company. Personally I've passed judgment on CGL, I know that's not exactly fair but that's the way I feel. That doesn't reflect at all on my feeling for Shadowrun as a game, but right now CGL is in charge of it. To that end I want to set all my bad feelings and animosity aside and take a good look at what you are saying you see.

I'm sure there are some people with hurt feelings that are going to say things that they wouldn't in polite company. This is Dumpshock, it would be uncomfortable if they didn't. But at some point the material I'm asking about will be published, with names and everything, and I don't know at this point what to think. What is going on? Who is doing it? Does it suck? How is Shadowrun?

That's all I want to know. Leave the controversy out of the next few posts and give us some meat to chew. We're hear because we all love Shadowrun and I want to know how it's doing. Not "press release" doing, but in depth "I've been trading posts with the line dev" doing. It is my honest hope that interesting and exciting things are going on and that I can look forward to the products that are coming, whoever they come from. Right now you're the man in that respect and I feel like you're playing your cards so close to your chest that we're starting to get worried about the game and not just the current company publishing it.

RobertB

Apr 13 2010, 05:42 PM

QUOTE (kanislatrans @ Apr 12 2010, 08:02 PM)

Thats why i keep buying powerball tickets...175 million on wednesday and I can own the whole shooting match by friday!

You know what's funny? I've been having the same sort of daydream/fantasy. Win the Powerball, come in like a white knight, scoop up the ownership rights to B-Tech and Shadowrun with a well-conceived business plan and tons of operating capital, and sail off into the sunset with thousands of great fans to continue building worlds by gamers/for gamers. (If I can steal a famous byline.)

Robert (aka, Spanner)

Prime Mover

Apr 13 2010, 05:45 PM

Picked up my ticket today...just in case.

augmentin

Apr 13 2010, 05:46 PM

QUOTE (RobertB @ Apr 13 2010, 12:42 PM)

You know what's funny? I've been having the same sort of daydream/fantasy. Win the Powerball, come in like a white knight, scoop up the ownership rights to B-Tech and Shadowrun with a well-conceived business plan and tons of operating capital, and sail off into the sunset with thousands of great fans to continue building worlds by gamers/for gamers. (If I can steal a famous byline.)

Robert (aka, Spanner)

If you win, promise to bring back the metaplots?

JM Hardy

Apr 13 2010, 06:03 PM

QUOTE (otakusensei @ Apr 13 2010, 12:08 PM)

I'm sorry if I sounded too negative with my last post, I was only trying to be clear about my feelings. To be honest with you my post was more directed at Shadowrun as a game line and less at CGL as a company. Personally I've passed judgment on CGL, I know that's not exactly fair but that's the way I feel. That doesn't reflect at all on my feeling for Shadowrun as a game, but right now CGL is in charge of it. To that end I want to set all my bad feelings and animosity aside and take a good look at what you are saying you see.

I'm sure there are some people with hurt feelings that are going to say things that they wouldn't in polite company. This is Dumpshock, it would be uncomfortable if they didn't. But at some point the material I'm asking about will be published, with names and everything, and I don't know at this point what to think. What is going on? Who is doing it? Does it suck? How is Shadowrun?

That's all I want to know. Leave the controversy out of the next few posts and give us some meat to chew. We're hear because we all love Shadowrun and I want to know how it's doing. Not "press release" doing, but in depth "I've been trading posts with the line dev" doing. It is my honest hope that interesting and exciting things are going on and that I can look forward to the products that are coming, whoever they come from. Right now you're the man in that respect and I feel like you're playing your cards so close to your chest that we're starting to get worried about the game and not just the current company publishing it.

I realize that things will come out with people's names on it, and that's fine. At that point you can react to what people have actually written, which is what any author expects. That reaction may be positive, or it may be negative, but it will be based on something that exists, which is fair. The problem I have is that if I put out names now, there will be people reacting to just names, or to reputations, or to résumés (or even perceived résumés). Given that I have already seen people who are good writers, people who are energetic and enthusiastic about the game and have good knowledge of it, be treated poorly on various forums, I'm not willing to make them the subject of a conversation about whether Shadowrun has a future. That's not fair of me to push the weight of the future onto them.

I've mentioned the products that I've been working on. In the past two weeks or so, I've written 20k words for these products. Other writers have submitted another 20k words or so worth of material. I've looked a lot of it over, and I'm happy with some of the plot hooks that have been built in, with the sense the writers have of the importance of giving players something to chew on in every section. I've seen two new pieces of fiction, and they have a great energy about them. I'm looking forward to setting them free.

I'm afraid there are certain cards I'll keep close to my vest, though. First, it's not a bad idea to keep some things secret until it's the right time to reveal them (what is Attitude about, anyway?). Second, much as I'd like to leave the controversy behind for a few posts, experience has shown that I can't do that. Just because I might want controversy to take a break for a time doesn't mean it will, so I have to keep writing posts in that light.

Jason H.

otakusensei

Apr 13 2010, 06:18 PM

QUOTE (JM Hardy @ Apr 13 2010, 01:03 PM)

I realize that things will come out with people's names on it, and that's fine. At that point you can react to what people have actually written, which is what any author expects. That reaction may be positive, or it may be negative, but it will be based on something that exists, which is fair. The problem I have is that if I put out names now, there will be people reacting to just names, or to reputations, or to résumés (or even perceived résumés). Given that I have already seen people who are good writers, people who are energetic and enthusiastic about the game and have good knowledge of it, be treated poorly on various forums, I'm not willing to make them the subject of a conversation about whether Shadowrun has a future. That's not fair of me to push the weight of the future onto them.

I've mentioned the products that I've been working on. In the past two weeks or so, I've written 20k words for these products. Other writers have submitted another 20k words or so worth of material. I've looked a lot of it over, and I'm happy with some of the plot hooks that have been built in, with the sense the writers have of the importance of giving players something to chew on in every section. I've seen two new pieces of fiction, and they have a great energy about them. I'm looking forward to setting them free.

I'm afraid there are certain cards I'll keep close to my vest, though. First, it's not a bad idea to keep some things secret until it's the right time to reveal them (what is Attitude about, anyway?). Second, much as I'd like to leave the controversy behind for a few posts, experience has shown that I can't do that. Just because I might want controversy to take a break for a time doesn't mean it will, so I have to keep writing posts in that light.

Jason H.

Thanks for speaking plainly on this. I'm not happy with the response but I respect your position. When new material is released I won't be the first person to the register; but like I already stated, I wouldn't have been for other reasons. I'll miss being able to get the Preorder+PDF combo without a concern about the material I'm paying for. That arrangement was seriously the best setup I've seen for purchasing new RPG books, and CatalystRED was a great idea to allow me to simultaneously support my FLGS. IT's a shame how much we've lost and how much potential hasn't panned out.

I still sick of "wait and see", but at least I have Shadowrun games to play each week. If this had all come down last year when I didn't have an SR group I would be bouncing off the walls right now.

nezumi

Apr 13 2010, 06:21 PM

QUOTE (augmentin @ Apr 13 2010, 12:54 PM)

Trollman quoted a mid-6 figure number, but he's permabanned again, so we'll never get the chance to verify those numbers.

But I believe he mentioned it was speculation. What he did quote was $600k stolen, and saying then that the actual value of the license would clearly be larger than that. I believe it was him specifically who speculated $1M, but again, it was just speculation. I haven't seen anyone give a hard number, and several people have said specifically they know the hard number, but are not at liberty to share. So all we can say is...

$600k was lost from this line + battletech over 3 years, and that was not significant enough to sink the line (at least not yet!) Which suggestins that that is probably not MORE than the value of the license, and likely significantly less.

Don't get me wrong, I think we'd all be happy for Adam to take it over. However:
1) No one has asked Adam if HE wants to. He has a new baby to work on, remember.
2) No one asked Adam if, right now, he is able to take on that amount of work.
3) No one asked Adam if he is able to pay what Topps is asking.

I mean it's nice to speculate that Adam will swoop in and save the line from dark strangers. But Adam is an actual person with thoughts, opinions and free will (and also, it appears, a healthy sense of discretion).

JM Hardy

Apr 13 2010, 06:22 PM

QUOTE (otakusensei @ Apr 13 2010, 01:18 PM)

Thanks for speaking plainly on this. I'm not happy with the response but I respect your position. When new material is released I won't be the first person to the register; but like I already stated, I wouldn't have been for other reasons. I'll miss being able to get the Preorder+PDF combo without a concern about the material I'm paying for. That arrangement was seriously the best setup I've seen for purchasing new RPG books, and CatalystRED was a great idea to allow me to simultaneously support my FLGS. IT's a shame how much we've lost and how much potential hasn't panned out.

I still sick of "wait and see", but at least I have Shadowrun games to play each week. If this had all come down last year when I didn't have an SR group I would be bouncing off the walls right now.

To be honest, I'd love to have something to say besides "wait and see." There's plenty of frustration to go around! I'd love to have new products out immediately, and to have hard copies flowing like water. We don't have they yet, though, so all I can do is work toward that point.

Jason H.

Adam

Apr 13 2010, 06:24 PM

QUOTE (nezumi @ Apr 13 2010, 02:21 PM)

But Adam is an actual person with thoughts, opinions and free will (and also, it appears, a healthy sense of discretion).

Yes.

Shinobi Killfist

Apr 13 2010, 06:26 PM

QUOTE (emouse @ Apr 13 2010, 12:19 PM)

Seriously, at this point, the only answer is wait and see. We'll know in relatively short order if CGL will retain the license, and if CGL does get new stuff out, we'll be able to get a look or reviews of it ahead of time.

Honestly IMO the 4e material has overall been of dubious quality in rules quality, production value, fluff etc. Maybe a change up of writers will suit me better.

knasser

Apr 13 2010, 06:33 PM

QUOTE (nezumi @ Apr 13 2010, 07:21 PM)

But Adam is an actual person with thoughts, opinions and free will (and also, it appears, a healthy sense of discretion).

I had him down as an AI of some sort, a lá Emergence. I presumed the origin software was some sort of graphics layout package.

Demonseed Elite

Apr 13 2010, 06:44 PM

QUOTE (knasser @ Apr 13 2010, 01:33 PM)

I had him down as an AI of some sort, a lá Emergence. I presumed the origin software was some sort of graphics layout package.

Adam is like SCIRE. Advanced Document Adjustment Machine. A FASA effort to automate book layout that achieved sentience due to some unforeseen X-factor.

Dr.Rockso

Apr 13 2010, 06:47 PM

QUOTE (Demonseed Elite @ Apr 13 2010, 01:44 PM)

Adam is like SCIRE. Advanced Document Adjustment Machine. A FASA effort to automate book layout that achieved sentience due to some unforeseen X-factor.

Ooh, nice one

Patrick Goodman

Apr 13 2010, 06:49 PM

QUOTE (Demonseed Elite @ Apr 13 2010, 01:44 PM)

Adam is like SCIRE. Advanced Document Adjustment Machine. A FASA effort to automate book layout that achieved sentience due to some unforeseen X-factor.

That explains so many things, Jay....