I've been thinking of just playing with a houserule that ignores cyber-torso and cyber-skull attributes and changes the number of limbs from 6 to 4 in terms of dividing for total attributes. Even body as they're described as shells.

Gives the enhancements a bit more utility and more room for armor and other cool installables. Just doesn't make sense to have to pump up your skull's agility to improve your overall agility. Seems more like a punishment to cybered characters more then anything else to me.


*Edit: Looks like Funk beat me to this one.

I generally just go with being very liberal in deciding what limbs apply to a certain skill usage. It would be rare for the skull being a factor, but the torso can easily be a factor in some agility skills like gymnastics depending on what you are doing. If you are generic gymnastic dodging I might only use the agility in the legs, but if you are doing flips the torso might add in, flip flops the whole body except the head etc. Most tasks the player will know in advance because people repeat similar moves so they don't even have to ask me, but when pulling off a new stunt then I'll look at what they are going for and what limbs should apply. I'm perfectly willing to let someone use the left hook of doom and just use the left arms stats if they specialize in cyberweapons or something, or just use the arms in general for a boxer etc.

Arms only for a boxer is no good. With melee fighting (especially by a skilled practioner) the whole body is involved in just about everything. Gymnastics, again because of total body involvement) I'd cap it at the lowest agility attribute of any of the limbs. I'm with you on the skull, though...it's just the ball that holds your brain, no joints, no significant muscles.

Yet, the very excemple given in the BBB use cyberams and melee combat as an excemple:



Don't get me wrong, after years of martial arts, I know exactly where you're coming from. The rules just work differently.

Yeah I understand where he is coming from as well, which is why I said I was very liberal in my interpretation. I don't try to model reality but what would make the game more fun.

My solution was always to keep the ratings of the limbs roughly close to each other for a single attribute, that way no matter how I had to divide it would more or less be the same number. My GM/s never made me factor in my head's attributes for combat or running (didn't have a cyberskull anyway), but depending on the situation (lifting a car vs. shooting a gun vs. melee combat) he would tell me the limbs that he thought applied and it'd be up to me to do the math. Keeping the attributes roughly the same made it easier on both of us.

Articulated full arms are one thing and bloody obvious, but with a cybertorso, you can get a retractable tracking weapon mount.
Well, if they are still in SR4 at least.

There is only one articulated weapon-arm in SR4. Needing to be readied implies that it is somewhat hidden unless in use but Augmentation does not say if and how well it is concealed.

you can get perditor style shoulder mounts and forearm mounts as well. I'm planing on unleashing such as cyber-zombie on my players some time. Though with some of that stuff on the Millspec armor it will have as well . Hydroclijacks and foot ancours are a must though XD.

Well, the shoulder-mount i can understand.
Biggest problem is, that you can't mount anything too big in there and you can not get any kind of additional recoil compensation in there either.
Why the Arm-Mounts?
For a real predator like NPC, there would be a spur on one side and a comlink on the other side.
Also, Foot-Anchors? For recoil-compensation i guess? Because for the Predator, these should be Grip-Feet with climbing claws i guess ^^

Shouldn't a Predator's weapons either be metagenic qualities/bioware or part of his equipment?

No, the Weapons were all equipment.
All Technology.
Only his Jumping/Strength and Speed would be quality/bioware.
But there is no way to get the Jumping done by anything else but cyber, so i'm going to let that one fly.

Great Leap adept power

An Ares Redline laser pistol would work on the shoulder mount. And jumping can be augmented with a Synthacardium and Muscle Toner bioware, giving a +7 dice pool bonus at max levels. If an adept, there's also Great Leap and Freefall on top of Improved Ability: Gymnastics and Attribute Boost: Agility. Cyber's not the only option, though it may be better sometimes.

We'll IIRC they are counted as drones... so no recoil also well duel redline lasers on the shoulders and a MP laser on an articulate arm. And yes spurs and "cortex" bomb in his arm Also hes only modeled after perditor not one.

Ah, right, i forgot about great leaping.
But it's supposed to be a cyber zombie or close enough with a torso.

well, if one get in nice and tight, a good headbutt may well provide some damage. Not something involved in any formal fighting style i can think of, but its a option, especially when you got a head that can stop bullets.

err, i stand corrected:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headbutt#Contact_sports

Eritrea actually have a martial art that revolves around it!

If you want the predator, why give him cyber at all? He seems more like an adept with a crazy powersuit. You can put hydraulic jacks and an articulated weapon arm into military grade armor, and then you can get all the jumping adept powers without having to worry about essence loss. You'd definitely need to surge him and he might need a few low essence cost items but you could do it without making him a zombie.

That was my first thought. These things were not invented for criminals, they are replacements fro the flesh and blood stuff that has been mangled. a car crash, a construction accident, soldiers on the battle field could all need massive structural replacement just to live.

Cos I'm wanting a cyber zombie that some corp has made to be like predator. Not predator its self. Really its mean to carry across the theam of predator not be a clone. So stealth and athletics will be used as will vocal implants(really don't under estimate what sounding like a kid in pain can do or the many other lures you can have) and a wide range of sensors spurs for close work big array of mounted gun for the fun of it ect.

Totally.

I'll admit that the thought initially came from a power-gaming itch ("What if I ignored most of my Physical Stats and just bought cyberlimbs?"), but in trying to find a rationale for WHY such a character would exist, I actually came up with a pretty solid and interesting background and character hook.

Those being what?
I often miss such backgrounds and character hooks for my own munchy designs, so finding and maybe being able to steal some is of big importance to me ^^

Simple explanations of having all cyberlimbs are hyperthermia with frost bite, fire, explosions, car wrecks or any of the above combined. I also combine this with cybereyes and cyberears because those would have gone in many instances. This is especially true for soldiers coming back from war. Cyberlimbs are cheaper than the meat replacements and you can use the excuse of muscle atrophy to explain the low base stats. Plus it gives you a good excuse to have those military connections.

If you want to be real munchinkinny then take it as a cybersuite to represent the fact many soldiers have this happen to them. Full body replacement with alphaware.

If cyberware existed in the real world that performed anything like how it's described in the game, I'd have no problem getting cyberlimbs if I could afford them. I'd even seek them out. Never having to exercise again? Being able to tweak my physical performance on a whim? Being able to remove and repair most parts of my body whenever I suffer an injury, instead of waiting weeks if not months or even years to recover from an accident? Then you have the ability to control how much feedback you get, either increasing your sensitivity to touch (mmm) or all but shutting it off completely as your demands required . And if I was vain enough to care, there'd even be synthetic options available.

There's very little cyberware that I would be interested in (especially headware and cybereyes). But cyberlimbs? I'd get them in a heartbeat.

Yeah, put your body on autopilot till you are at work in the morning, then have your eyes and ears switch on when there to wake you up.
one or more hours of sleep won every day!

I once used the excuse of the character having been in a bomb disposal squad who was to disarm a swimming mine that went boom on him to explain Arms and torso.
Character went into shock and was still awake enough to see a big paranormal fish eat his arms and swim away with them . . Yes, he got phobia and a pathological hate against fishes.
Another time i think i had a conventional ground mine go boom below a characters feet to explain legs and torso.
I have not yet found a satisfying way to explain a cyber-skull though . . especially the obvious one that pretty much made you fail at most things social no matter what in SR3 . .

I've always assumed that a cybertorso replaces the torso's muscles, the ribcage and probably also the spine, leaving only your organs.



Load drone software, bring your own suppressive fire.
With two SMGs (or 4, or 6, depending on the number of arms you start with) and one LMG if you go all the way.
Then, you still have weapons held by your two (or 4, or 6) normal hands.
Can you say DAKKA?

DAKKA < = see? i can =^.^=
Also: No, the Torso basically consists of Armor-Plates bolted onto your ribcage on the outside in the case of an obvious one,
In the case of an synthetic one, you get some kevlar plates folded onto the inside of your ribcage i think.

Possible, but that would leave the user with the normal physical attributes, right?
Even if it's not a complete replacement, i'd assume at least replacement of the muscles to validate a complete set of independent stats outside of pathogen/toxin resistance and Reaction.

Otherwise, it would just be an advanced form of Dermal Plating, when in fact it can do more than Dermal Plating, Bone Lacing and Muscle Replacement combined.

Considering how much Essence it eats up, it's a significant amount of replacement. Not just a few plates strapped onto you.

And since it has capacity, it must replace some parts of your meat torso. I'd guess it's basically a full replacement that houses the internal organs.

Omenowl had the right idea for a beginning. Some kind of gross physical trauma like a raging inferno or getting washed in acid. Cut to a year or two later and the character has been essentially living a "Full Immersion" lifestyle--their body a blind, semi-limbless, mangled hunk of meat clocking time in a forgotten corner of some hospital ward because their insurance or payscale wasn't enough to warrant them any better. Since their entire life is online they probably develop some pretty decent computer skills. Maybe meet some friendly hackers in chatrooms or virtual clubs and pick up some tricks of the trade. Then one day, a vague acquaintance or friend-of-a-friend approaches the character with an all-too-tempting offer: "What if I could give you a body again?" Heedless of what strings might be attached, the character jumps at the chance. Within the week, he's standing on the sidewalk wearing a set of 'flats' in front of the hospital with a brand new suite of synthetic cyber-limbs, -eyes, and -ears to replace the ones fate took away from him. On his way out the door, the nurse 'returns' to him belongings that were never his from a hospital locker. One of these is a decent commlink containing a barebones array of hacking tools, a handfull of creds, a fake SIN, the address to a run-down apartment leased to same SIN, and a phone number to call that turns out to be a fixer telling him that he has a job available for a qualified hacker with a shadowrunning team. As he takes his first stumbling steps into the shadows over the next few months, he discovers other "functions" built into his new 'ware. His artificial hair can change color and length; his fake skin can alter its pigmentation; not only can his cybereyes change color, but they can duplicate retinal patterns; the vocal synthesizer replacing his destroyed larynx can accurately imitate the vocal patterns of others; skillwires let him duplicate the talents of others with the flip of a mental switch. And who knows what else? More importantly, who did this for him--no, to him--and why?

So, what started as an attempt to justify creating, essentially, Robocop (or Battle Angel Alita or some other 'Borged-out engine of mayhem), turned into something quite different. Someone who was robbed of their body and senses by one twist of fate, and then given a 'replacement' by another. At the start of the campaign, the character has some inkling that he was reconstructed and is perhaps being groomed to be some kind of chameleon or literal infiltration machine by a Shadowy Benefactor(s) for reasons unknown. Beneath all that durable metal, he's frightened and alone in a world he is only beginning to understand, living in dread of the day his mysterious patron comes to tug at the leash. But, until then, he doesn't see any other choice but to plod blindly along the path laid before him.

Now, granted, I don't think a starting character could afford all the 'ware I described at character gen (since it would have to all be alphaware), but you get the idea.

Born rich and in debt might help. If I was a GM and was given somthing like that and at least try and see it realised.

what it sounds like you need, is a cyberware suite. a suite of 2 cyberarms, 2 cyberlegs, and cybertorso (and maybe cyberskull) makes perfect sense, and would only cost 90% the essence. sure its expensive, but the people who need this sort of thing tend to be military in application. availibility may be an issue, but there are qualities to get around that.

144,000 for an alphaware ability 3/3/3 obvious replacement body cyberware suite (excluding the skull) could be about availability 12. about 6 extra boxes of physical damage. and only 3.96 essence as alphaware, its actual somewhat affordable. granted its going to cost an extra 15,000 for each +1 to attributes from customization (which raises availability above 12).

Two bombs exploding on you at close range is going to mess up your face, safty gear or not.

"Rivals... No one rivals Doom! NO ONE! Doom is supreme! there is no power on earth, no intellect in all creation to equal Mine!" --V. von Doom

How about for the additional smuggling capacity on the corpse? (Runner's Companion, p. 35)

Any major skull fracture would require a steel plate in the head. I assume the same would apply to why a cyberskull was installed. Throw the meat parts to ghouls and gnawers....

One thing that's always bugged me in the cyberlimb rules is the lack of a synthetic cyberskull. It makes perfect sense to me and there ought to be one. Personally, if I could, I'd love to have a reinforced replacement version of my own skull, but I don't want to have a motorcycle helmet for a head. It would have to have slightly lower capacity, so perhaps that's why there isn't one - the devs couldn't see a point in having a cyber body part with only two capacity. But it should be in there for thematic reasons and I'm sure some would see value in sticking even 1 point of armour in there.

K.

Yeah, the lack of a Synthetic Cyberskull has always been a WTF thing for me, too. I mean, of all the cyberlimbs in the game, that's the one nearly everyone with half a brain cell would get as a synthetic limb. It's even more ridiculous that you can get anthroform drones with lifelike faces. Oy.

Odd... After looking in my copy of Augmentation, I see the stats for a Synthetic Cyberskull... why would you think that it does not actually exist?

It is half the capacity of the Obvious One (2) and half again as expensive (15,000 Nuyen)...

Keep the Faith

I'm pretty sure all limbs allways were and still are available as both obvious and synthetic O.o

n/m, I read Tymeaus' post too late.

Huh! It's not in the tables in the main rule book. The back pages of Augmentation seem to be the only place it appears. Odd.

Thanks - it's about what I'd house-ruled.

K.

Didn't you have an upload to finish?

No problems...
Yeah, it is not in my main book either, even in the tables... My guess is that it was just missed...

Keep the Faith

I can upload the game session if people are interested? I have it open on my computer now and could MP3 it up quite easily.

IIRC there's a printing of the main book that's missing the cyberskull.

I read through the rules again:

By RAW, the max armor a limb (including torso) can have is 4 points, which would be 8 capacity. This would leave you with only 2 capacity left on an obvious cybertorso, and no benefits other than 1 additional condition monitor box and a permanant +4/+4 armor to your torso. I'm still trying to think how this could possibly be a good use of 1.5 essence and whatever nuyen it costs (though I think if you get it Delta grade and have less cyber than Bioware, a total cost of .375 for a cybertorso's +4 armor is fairly efficient).

Think of it as a last ditch choice, rather than the optimal first pick for a cyberlimb. If you already have four cyberlimbs and still want more armor/capacity for whatever reason, you have a cybertorso to turn to. Capacity, as previously mentioned somewhere, is the real perk for cyberlimbs though. You can often save more Essence by throwing Capacity-eating implants into a cyberlimb (or torso in this case) than you would by just taking the implants normally. They also let you get things you couldn't normally get as implants, too.

Armor isn't the only option.

§$%&!!!
Why the fuck did i not think of this yet?
I'll make him a mage too. Give him Dermal Plating or Dermal Sheath too.
I'll call him Victor Van Dom!
Make him a Magical Adept too, so he can do some Martial Arts like Van Damme too . .

Also: you don't get that armor on your Torso.
You get it on your Eye-Lid, on your Pinky and on your big toe too.
And everywhere in between also.