So, the spell Fireball and the object Grenade: how do they work?

Can one avoid their area damage with a Reaction check before soaking damage, or does one only soak the damage?

Thanks, -- N

As they are both targeted actions and not Direct Combat spells, yes, they should be able to roll their Defense pool to avoid it. Anyone who can't avoid it will soak.

Additionally, unless the user changed it ahead of time, a grenade is set to explode on the next initiative pass after a person threw it, right after their place in the order (whether or not the character themselves have a pass to act). This means everyone who has an initiative pass to act in between those two times has a chance to just run away from it.

Awesome, we did that right. Thanks.


If the grenade user fires it via a launcher with an airburst link, then there's no delay, right?

Grenades fired from a launcher with an airburst link explode in the Action Phase they were launched in.

As far as the spells go. They work differently than the grenade... they are an opposed attack roll. It is literally how many hits did you get on the spell (3 for example)... oh he rolled 4 on reaction (+counterspelling)... you completely missed. Then roll soak on the DV+net hits if it hits. You can 'miss' with them even if something is in the center of the blast zone.


In the case of a grenade, it's simply how far away from the character does it land then calculate effects accordingly. If you get people trying to toss 2 nades per pass. Just remind them that drawing a grenade and 'pulling the pin' is a simple action (ready weapon), before throw weapon (simple). Grenades are true to the old saying... close only counts in horse shoes and hand grenades. The only question is where they land, anyone close enough to this point will roll to soak that damage, unlike a spell which can still miss outright.



Airburst is like firing grenades w/ a fast & precise timer. Airburst also requires a smartgun (p322, 'smartgun accessory'). (smartgun already has the rangefinders and ballistics calculations and the like). What it does is calculate the trajectory then put the round on a timer, after 20ms of flight explode close to the target.

Generally if you're trying to hit a specific person w/ the blast, it's an opposed test. And they go off in the round fired.

Thrown grenades can be set to command, timer (1pass, or longer it's programmable, default is 1), or even contact. (they explode when they hit something when thrown... if players try and abuse that one too much, there's a lot of things they can 'bump' into if you take my meaning).


But as a GM you have some latitude... because technically it's perfectly valid to attack the furniture which just happens to be terrorizing you and catch the others in the blast zone accidentally. Situation willing, you should probably give everyone aware in the blast zone a reaction test to treat their distance from the blast as +1m/hit. (he flinched behind the desk reducing the effect of the blast, this pud used this other pud for cover... doesn't matter).

Also be aware the scatter rules in SR4a are absolutely brutal now.

In our group, grenades are not an opposed roll. The attacker designates a point of impact, rolls his success test and uses hits to reduce the scatter. If any viable target is still within the radius when the grenade goes off, they take the appropriate amount of damage (base damage-range modifier) and resist normaly.
We've always been playing it like that and I honestly thought that's how it worked anyway. Well, at least that's how it should work, so we continue using it this way.

So if people see a grenade skittering along the ground, they're just going to stand there and wait for it to detonate? That's how it should work?

They have until it detonates to do something about it.

If it's contact fused, or airburst... it's not skittering around.

For all the rest, they get one pass to get the hell out of Dodge City.

Though that's one wierdness in the rules... it goes off in the next pass... If you have a runner w/ 1 pass, and a mook w/ 1 pass... that means even a thrown grenade goes off in the 2nd pass (even though the players don't have a 2nd pass). So yeah it's possible especially in the 3rd pass or so, that you get people flatfooted and caught by a blast they would have been able to run away from had they still had actions.


(one reason I'm fond of always splitting movement by 4, and having people move partial every pass rather than you only get 1 pass... and allowing people to take their 1IP worth of action on any pass, and not just the first one).

That's why we take "next pass" quite literal and refer to the next available pass. If all participants have only 1 pass, it goes off on the next available one of the thrower. I prefer that rule over "at the end of the combat round" anyway.

No, they'll probably move on their turn, before the grenade goes off. If they're out of Initiative Passes, they'll bug their eyes out like Rodney Dangerfield and get blown the fuck up. If you're throwing a grenade to hit a specific person, I can see giving them a defensive test, but the more common application of grenades is still going to be "I throw a grenade over the SUV that the four Triad goons are hiding behind", which means one of them gets to make defense test, but who gets to determine which one, and what happens to all the other assholes who happened to be standing near the guy who was chosen by The Hand of God to save them from hot, spinning, metallic death.

One of the reasons I'm looking forward to WAR! is to see how the use of grenades against multiple opponents and the use of autofire with scattering weapons get codified.

MK-19 + Drone = massive chunky salsa!!!


Woot!

Same goes with those fired from a launcher with out the airbust link.

The instant detonation is specifically a property of the Airburst Link. Nothing in the rules for grenade launchers states that they do not have the same detonation delay if they do not have an airburst link.

It sates the explode on impact.

Where? I've read the section on grenades six times in the last ten minutes, along with everything in Arsenal referencing grenades and the only thing I can find is the part about launched grenades not arming if they strike something before traveling 5 meters.

Edit: Interesting. The rules contradict themselves with a single line in the Gear section describing minigrenades, which state that they explode on impact once they've traveled 5 meters.

heres another thing I have trouble with in the area effect realm. The Triad guy inside the van. Is he at the exact same risk as the guy standing directly over the grenade? And a guy in the stuffer shack gets the protection of the wall?

In game terms. Vehicles add their armor to the character when bullets are flying, but when an area effect goes off. the Player doesn't get such protection. Conversely, any other barrier soaks the damage until its breeched. Please somebody tell me I'm wrong!!

To what? I see a book called Mob War! but it was published in 2002.

Why wouldn't they?

SR4a p.171 Damage and passengers:

IN the case of ramming, full-auto, and area-effect attacks, both passengers and vehicles resist the damage equally.

No I don't buy that...

Then you arbitrarily change the fuse length based on character speed. Rather than all grenades being set the same...

Does this mean that if the 4IP street sam tosses it goes on his next pass a second later. While if the street punk tosses it it waits a whole 3s combat turn.


But anyhow, like I said, I like using a house rule where everyone aware in the blast zone gets a reaction test to make the explosion act as if it were farther away than it was. For the vast majority it's unlikely to move them out of the blast radius, but it will help soak an extra few points of damage by reducing the damage before soak. (I consider it, ducking behind a desk, behind your teammate, turning your armor more effectively to the blast... doesn't matter what exactly, just mechanically it works well).



Vehicles & explosives damage:
Yes passengers and vehicle need to resist seperately... but people behind the barrier (vehicle armor) will still get the extra protection. That rule mostly reflects the attack is unfocused and might hit any and all... generally people in a vehicle are going to have double or triple their normal armor and resist most of us, or take a point or two of stun at most.

In my opinion, that just means they both resist the same damage. I don't read that they no longer get the benefit of the chassis out of it.

Ditto.

My understanding is that the official rule is the person you aim at with your grenade gets to dodge, everyone else in the AoE stands around like an idiot. Which is why people came up with the brilliant idea of aiming at a chair or other object that wont dodge. I believe it is the same for indirect AoE spells. I think that is a pile of stupid and ignore it, everyone in the AoE should get a reaction test to reduce damage, though I also think grenades should still scale up in damage. I do not remember if 4A changed this or not, maybe whatever potential forthcoming book will enlighten us or change the rule.

By raw the guy nearest the grenade gets a chance to kick it.

Or something.

But only the first guy, even if the direction he kicks it adds more people to the blast zone, even if it would be to his advantage to kick it another way. AND he doesn't need to be anywhere near the grenade at the time.

My players routinely make use of wireless grenades. Activated and subscribed then tossed and set off via commlink. No fear of hacking as rarely more then a round or two goes by unless setting up an ambush. Free action to set it off, guy goes to kick it or toss it back and BOOM!

Edit: On the lines of chunky salsa effect, what happens when two guys toss several wireless activated stun grenades into the small room with the Wendigo?

A short finally.

Grenades can be fired at a target, in which case it is an opposed test, or at a specific location with a normal success test.
Also, keep in mind that reaction tests against area-effects are at -2.

No. No you can not.

Yes, you can. Just select "Floor Tile 1137" as your target.

Right then, what stops me from targeting the floor tile under a guy's feet? Why doesn't he get an opposed test to increase the scatter?

(If I ever show up to a missions game I will create a character who has a sever dislike of furniture and a love of grenades).

Nothing.

Do you always get to make an opposed test then? If a grenade is shot at your feet or 1 meter away or 2 meters away, do you still get to roll dodge or whatever to reduce DV?

Yes, now read the special rules for attacking w/ grenades/rockets in the combat section...
Where there is one test... against scatter... then apply damage/soak accordingly.

And the completely different rules for targeting combat spells at the beginning of the combat spell section.
In which case, everything in the blast zone (which doesn't scatter) gets a reaction roll to avoid getting hit followed by a soak roll.


The -2 clearly applies... IF they are the target (such as against the spell). Just to give a basic idea of how silly it can get... There's a threat level 0 pud (reaction 2) standing next to the dodgiest ninja adept. Weap spec fires GL at pud, rea -2==0 dice... the ninja gets no dodge check!! (takes full damage based on where it lands.. minus soak). This is no different than targeting the furniture. Another thing to notice about this example is that hings are very static... no one is moving all that fast.

That is the problem in the rules... that only one thing is actually targetted, nothing else gets reaction tests. There is NOTHING in the rules that says that the one thing targeted must be alive.

If you fired at and hit the guard instead the chair would still take damage!! (who knows, maybe you really didn't like the colour and cut of the fabric on that chair... really who uses shag in this day and age...)


I'm trying to remember who it was that said, the opposed test is more for people in high speed chases... where you're trying to hit a fast moving vehicle, where gauging the impact point is a lot rougher and the opposed test far more called for.


Just as a reminder: I'm not fond of this... I'm an advocate of giving everyone a reaction roll to mitigate damage. Just I don't like to sugarcoat what the rules actually say and allow.

See SR4A pg.155, "Determine Scatter".

See:

Funfrock... here's the problem in there...


You have 3 targets in the blast radius... who does the opposed test go against?!

Super dodge monkey.. who somehow magically 'teleports' the grenade farther from it's impact point of everyone.
Or Mr Pud the clumsiest low-budget rent-a-cop known to man?
Thus the amazing, 'teleporting' grenade problem.

Look at the area scatter... hits on the opposed test simply move the impact point of the grenade... it's still always resolved after figuring out where it lands.



IMO: the best house rule method is to simply resolve the toss... see where it lands, then give everyone in the blast radius a reaction test to avoid the full brunt of the blast. (grenades have damage which reduces w/ range). As unlike in the FAQ, a contact fused grenade such as from a GL (or timed fuse from an airburst linked GL). Goes off when fired, there is no 1 phase to move out of the blast zone.

That would be one of my players' character right now, an ex-Urban Combat pro player with anger management issues and a grenade launcher.

I think that the rules are not entirely clear here, but here is how I handle it atm:

- If the grenade is targeted at a mobile target it gets to roll reaction as per the normal rules.

- When the grenade goes off everybody in the blast radius gets to roll reaction -2 except those that already had a reaction test against the attack in this Initiative Phase. Successes reduce the attacker's successes for damage calculation but cannot increase scatter retroactively. The attack wil miss a defender completely if he scores more successes.

- In certain situations grenades must be aimed at a specific target, e.g. when attacking airborne enemies or during car chase scenes.

Falconer, I was responding specifically to the query about choosing to target the floor tile under the guy's feet rather than targeting the dude, because it's one of those common misconceptions about the rules.

As for handling multiple targets in radius, I just get the attacker to roll to hit, reduce scatter by his hits, work out where the grenade is, and then give everyone in the radius a reaction test, moving them a number of metres away equal to their hits. Not RAW, but simple and works well.

Hehe.

But yes, my sole reason for doing so would be to highlight how much the grenade rules suck.

Alpha Omega's rules had their own issue with regards to explosions and barriers, which after a little developer input on the intent of the rules I came to a remarkably clever solution.

Actually, I just realized that there are significant differences between the grenade rules in SR4 and SR4A.

In SR4A people in the blast area do not get a dodge test anymore. Everybody in range is hit. Consequently, the attacker's successes are only applied to reduce scatter but cannot increase the damage.

While this is a deviation from the standard combat rules, I like it more because it requires less dice rolling (area-effects already have enough of this usually).

Minigrenades are launched from grenade launchers. They are rigged to explode on impact, but do not arm until they are five meters away from the attacker. This is to prevent exploding too close to the attacker. If you fire a minigrenade at point-blank range into an enemy, it'll hurt like buggery, but it won't explode.

However, if the targeted person dodges, the grenade/spell doesn't stop and explode. The grenade/spell continues travelling in a straight line until it rolls to a stop or hits something. Note that lobbed grenades don't use this attack mechanic.

In my opinion, if the barrier completely shielded the victim from the blast, treat the attack at an attack on the barrier. If the barrier is destroyed, the blast radius is doubled in that direction due to shrapnel (instead of -2P/meter, it's -1P/meter.)

Do passengers not get vehicle protection against Full Auto and Area attacks? I thought such attacks simply struck the vehicle *and* passengers, but there's no reason for the armor to stop helping the passengers. The example of autofire versus normal fire would clearly be ridiculous if that were the case.

My view of dodging/avoidable is that the player gets a chance to either move away or hide behind cover (or both depending). The better your dodge the more distance you put between you and the explosion.

Passengers in vehicles are just screwed if anything happens to the car they're in. APC crashes into a wall going 30 mph? Everyone inside takes 20P.

No, you do not get the APC's armor to help resist.

Just treat vehicles as plot devices to gt you from point A to point B. The rules for them are so bad I don't see another option. Drones work fine heck even chase scenes work fine until someone pulls out an automatic weapon or AoE weapon or tries to ram the other car. You know as long as you don't do anything you would do in pretty much every chase scene it works fine.

I'm not talking about crashing. I'm talking about autofire and area damage, which are specifically mentioned. For damage *except* crash/ram, you explicitly do get the vehicle armor, and I can't imagine that autofire changes that, and the same logic applies to area damage.

I usually just say roll dice and then tell the players what happened.
I don't need some shitty scatter chart to tell me that 4 net hits means a guy just got pegged in the face same as if it were a knife or a bullet.

While yes they get the armor of the vehicle they do resist the damage equally. So something that does 1 box of damage after resistance tests for the vehicle can splatter the characters which seems silly IMO. This gets sillier IMO when thinking about autofire. So I do a full auto narrow burst if you are outside of the car I hit one of you, if you are in the car I hit everyone in the car?

Now if the cars armor would bounce it, the players are fine they do not roll a resistance test because they get the benefit of the vehicles armor and if the DV is not high enough no damage happens.