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chinagreenelvis
This might be a pointless thread, but I really feel like limiting Positive and Negative qualities to 35 BP each really puts a hurting on the fun that could really be had if it were raised to something like 50. Anyone else feel like 35 is just slightly too low?
D2F
QUOTE (chinagreenelvis @ Apr 27 2010, 11:33 PM) *
Anyone else feel like 35 is just slightly too low?

With 6 billion people in the world, someone is bound to find that 35 is not enough. I think 35 is just fine.
Dumori
I tend to say anything over 35 is a very much my decision area. I some times also play the rule that you only get 50% back on negatives under -35 and pay x2 more on positives over 35.
Eratosthenes
I really hate seeing people taking Mild Addiction: Betel as a negative quality. Cheesy much? biggrin.gif
Bull
All things Chargen are subject to the GMs approval. I know I'm both real careful with what I allow, and if you take it as a flaw, you better be damn sure it's going to come into play somehow.

If my players take a flaw and then roleplay it on a regular basis, cool, that's the end of it. As long as it factors in. But folks who take Colorblind and then just ignore it? Heh. "So, Bob, you need to cut a wire or you blow up real good. You know you have to cut the green wire..."

As for how many points, I generally go with the book default, but I might allow more if there was a good reason and the player wasn't just trying to munch out.

Bull
Karoline
QUOTE (chinagreenelvis @ Apr 27 2010, 07:33 PM) *
This might be a pointless thread, but I really feel like limiting Positive and Negative qualities to 35 BP each really puts a hurting on the fun that could really be had if it were raised to something like 50. Anyone else feel like 35 is just slightly too low?


I think it's generally enough. It is designed that you have to make choices and can't just grab everything you want. I think they also priced certain qualities with the 35 limit in mind. You can't for instance get Type-O and biocompatability, not because they exclude each other, but because their total cost is over 35.

I do have to admit that those positive quality points disappear rather quickly when making a mage, and so I've seen some GMs have magic related qualities (positive and negative) not count towards the 35BP limit. This makes things like aspected mage alot more attractive, since it is a very serious hit compared to most other things of similar BP.
Red-ROM
I only feel the squeeze when it comes to martial arts. We really need to cut those karate guys a break.
Belvidere
As a GM, I allow 50 points of positive without an issue, cause you're spending your BP, so if you want those instead. There are a lot of things you could use more you might be losing out on. And I guess I'm blessed to have heavy roleplaying players. Ive got players who take more than 35 BP worth of negative qualities because it fits the character, but only take the 35 bonus BP.
Udoshi
QUOTE (Karoline @ Apr 27 2010, 06:12 PM) *
I do have to admit that those positive quality points disappear rather quickly when making a mage, and so I've seen some GMs have magic related qualities (positive and negative) not count towards the 35BP limit. This makes things like aspected mage alot more attractive, since it is a very serious hit compared to most other things of similar BP.



Agreed. And some things, like martial arts, ought to be skills. A personal annoyance is Obscure and Blandness. They do the same thing, one for the real world, one for the matrix, and one is priced double the other. Go figure.

Sometimes I feel like the 35bp limit is too small. Sometimes you have a rather cool idea or backstory, and you want to stat it. Because, really, a character should have an interesting place to come from and some qualities to reflect it. But you also want to fit in qualities to make your character effective in their chosen role, and I don't mean min-maxed to hell and back, but effective in the 10-15 dice pool range that says your character knows what they're doing. The problem comes in when you try to fit both in the points you have to work with, and you're 5-10 points over, and its rather annoying.

It would be nice if GM's in general would relax on the 35 limit a bit, actually look at what a player is trying to do on a case by case basis, and give them a little leeway if it fits with a theme. I'd rather have a player feeling into the game, behind a neat concept they like, contributing to the game instead of rerolling a more generic archetype cause of a knee-jerk gm reaction. I mean, there is plenty of stupid powergamey min-maxey shit you can do within the limit already. 5-10 points here and there of flavorful qualities add up. If someone wants to play a crash victim who got their sin back eventually, and ended up with both Mistaken Identity and Digital Doppelganger out of it, which is kinda neat - but if that same player is the playgroups Magician, well, crap, no room for a Mentor Spirit or a Spirit Pact, or other mage-related qualities.

I, personally, think the 35 limit is too small, but also that some qualities are really not properly priced or worth taking, which doesn't help either, and that it is ultimately up to a gm to say no - or yes - to things the players bring up. An optimizer will work within the rules to get what they want anyway, but a more casual, inspired player might not have the persistence or book-fu to do the same, and it just hurts that kind of player who just want to have fun.

Solutions to your problem? Use your discretion. Be candid with your players. Tell it to them straight: if you have a cool concept, run it by me. But if you bring a cyberzombie to the table, by god, i'm going to eat all the cheetos, then go to the toilet with your character sheet in hand, and put it on myspace.'

Yes, that means I do have a cyberzombie build I could use out the door of character generation. Would I ever actually use it? No, no I wouldn't. Instead, have some houserules i've spotted around dumpshock that might be of use.

Saw a decent houserule in a thread last week or so, for this. Player's get to take up to 70 in positive qualities - but anything over 35 must have an equal number of negative qualities to go with it. Subject to the gm going 'no, that's stupid', of course.

Kerenshara also has a pretty decent list of minor argh-reducing houserules and things, in the 'seeking seattle runners' thread from ages ago. Since its on-topic, i'm going to paste it here.

QUOTE (Kerenshara @ Oct 24 2009, 12:23 PM) *
IF you choose to play a Technomancer of an Awakened character, I DO NOT count the cost of the Qualities directly related to those abilities against the 70 Karma limit on Qualities. That would include:
• Technomancer
• Paragon
• Wild Technomancer
• Adept
• Mystic Adept
• Magician
• Mentor Spirit
• Aspected Magician
If you have another quality you feel should be added to that list, I will listen and approve/disapprove on a 1-on-1 basis. Latent Technomancer and Latent Awakening still both count against the limit.


I do NOT consider the "Martial Arts Qualities" from Arsenal to be subject to the 70 Karma limit.

Medicineman
QUOTE (chinagreenelvis @ Apr 27 2010, 06:33 PM) *
This might be a pointless thread, but I really feel like limiting Positive and Negative qualities to 35 BP each really puts a hurting on the fun that could really be had if it were raised to something like 50. Anyone else feel like 35 is just slightly too low?

Do it "the GURPS Way"
invent Quirks.
5 Minor Disadvantages
(like Addiction to Bethel,prefers authentic Coffee & Tobacco,loves his Bike,etc)as a Package for 5BP. These are Minor Disadvantage,not Worth 5 Points by themselves thats why you take them as a "Package"
That Way you can have much more Disadvantages and thus much more Fun

with more fun Dances
Medicineman
Banaticus
QUOTE (Udoshi @ Apr 27 2010, 05:29 PM) *
Sometimes I feel like the 35bp limit is too small. Sometimes you have a rather cool idea or backstory, and you want to stat it. Because, really, a character should have an interesting place to come from and some qualities to reflect it. But you also want to fit in qualities to make your character effective in their chosen role, and I don't mean min-maxed to hell and back, but effective in the 10-15 dice pool range that says your character knows what they're doing. The problem comes in when you try to fit both in the points you have to work with, and you're 5-10 points over, and its rather annoying.

Which is precisely why all the best mucnkins are awesome roleplayers and writers, 'cause you're not going to be able to break the rules and get the truly awesome uber stuff without some serious written novels and a lot of roleplaying. wink.gif
D2F
QUOTE (Banaticus @ Apr 28 2010, 07:23 AM) *
Which is precisely why all the best mucnkins are awesome roleplayers and writers, 'cause you're not going to be able to break the rules and get the truly awesome uber stuff without some serious written novels and a lot of roleplaying. wink.gif

You don't need a BP quality for a background story.
Karoline
QUOTE (D2F @ Apr 28 2010, 06:35 AM) *
You don't need a BP quality for a background story.


But if you're background story includes "I was an escaped clone" it would be weird to not have the escaped clone quality. Or to claim you are a wanted person with a bounty on your head, and then not have the bounty and so on.
Doc Chaos
QUOTE (Karoline @ Apr 28 2010, 02:29 PM) *
But if you're background story includes "I was an escaped clone" it would be weird to not have the escaped clone quality. Or to claim you are a wanted person with a bounty on your head, and then not have the bounty and so on.


Only if your GM is "narrow minded" enough to ignore everything that isn't served RAW.
D2F
QUOTE (Karoline @ Apr 28 2010, 12:29 PM) *
But if you're background story includes "I was an escaped clone" it would be weird to not have the escaped clone quality. Or to claim you are a wanted person with a bounty on your head, and then not have the bounty and so on.

Why would that be weird? You would simply not have the benefits of the quality. There could be various reasons for that. For excemple, I have an Ork technomancer with two case modded cyberarms, yet I don't have the "distinctive style" flaw. Why? Because I can and will cover them up if nescessary. In the case of the escaped clone it could be something along the lines of "the original owner is not registered in the system". It would be weird to get confused with someone they should not have in the system in the first place.

I can only repeat myself: You don't need qualities for a background. To argue that you should have them BECAUSE of your background is ludicrous.
fistandantilus4.0
I like a wider point limit, as long as it makes sense to the character and their background. I don't see why a player shouldn't be able to customize their character with qualities rather than skills.

Naturally everything should be to GM approval.
Mäx
If i ever get to paly i will definedly try to convice my GM to either raise the point limits on qualities or agree that indeb shouldn't be a quality and just use its rules for taking a lone at chargen.
This is becouse there are few negative qualites i would like to take for my Sasha but i kinda need that 20k nuyen.gif from indeb 4.
Karoline
That I can back up. I don't like in-debt as a negative quality very much, but think it is a good means to gain some extra starting cash.
Nixda
I think the 35 limit is about right. That doesnt mean I cant allow more when a player has a character concept that doesnt work out at all with a 35 limit, but I'd only allow it if I had the impression that it really was for concept reasons and not powergaming ones.

However, concerning game balance I especially like how Adepts can have a Type O system, while Mystic Adepts cannot. While this does not offset the power difference between the two, it surely helps a lot.

I have to agree on the martial arts, though - the way it is currently designed, characters are better off learning their MA styles once the game has started, which is counter-intuitive to some concepts. As far as mages are concerned, I do not see them having enough problems - in fact they're quite powerful - to justify needing a higher limit. Being a mage with the versatility, power and amount of game time in the spotlight is a nice advantage and priced fairly, imho.
Omenowl
I think it depends on what you do.

A character with a wife and baby (10 or 15), a full time job (15), debt (30) and a addiction to gambling (10), sinner (5) makes perfect sense while still blowing the 35 bp limit. The story writes itself as to why the character turned to shadowrunning as he got into debt from gambling and has to pay it off else they will go after his family.

It would just depend on what the positive qualities that he bought if I would allow him to get more than 35 points in positive qualities.
D2F
QUOTE (Omenowl @ Apr 29 2010, 03:20 AM) *
I think it depends on what you do.

A character with a wife and baby (10 or 15), a full time job (15), debt (30) and a addiction to gambling (10), sinner (5) makes perfect sense while still blowing the 35 bp limit. The story writes itself as to why the character turned to shadowrunning as he got into debt from gambling and has to pay it off else they will go after his family.

It would just depend on what the positive qualities that he bought if I would allow him to get more than 35 points in positive qualities.

That character would be nigh impossible to play anyway.
Doc Chaos
And you believe that... why exactly?
RedFish
I am playing a character with addiction to gambling at the moment. He does not have it as a negative quality - nor do I think that should be allowed, seeing as it might be detrimental to your finances, but it is not (directly) something that leads to the deterioration of your health (it might indirectly as people you owe money come a-knocking wink.gif).
Dumori
Addiction to gamble is stat wise a compulstion
RedFish
QUOTE (Dumori @ Apr 29 2010, 08:10 AM) *
Addiction to gamble is stat wise a compulstion


True. That's one way to handle it. Personally I just go with it as I find that a lot of the personality flaws limit the roleplaying if you take them as forced stats rather than just go with what makes for the best story. Occasionally I'll roll for some things that might be interesting either way.
Medicineman
a Compulsion to Gamble is a perfect example of a Quirk !

Hough !
Medicineman
D2F
QUOTE (Doc Chaos @ Apr 29 2010, 04:52 AM) *
And you believe that... why exactly?
interest rates of his debt.
40/h per week he is unavailable. Put in another 50h a week to be with his family. Add on top of that a monthly rate of 4,500¥ just to cover the interest rates of his debt and 20% increased lifestyle cost overall.
How would you combine that with the lifestyle and most importantly the working demands of a runner? What team would work with him in the first place? A week has a grand total of 168h. Out of those he will have to spend a minimum of 49h asleep and another 50h for his responsibilities. That leaves 69h raw free time, in which gambling has not even been addressed, yet.
Can you say "Burn Out Syndrome"? I wasn't saying that you can't play such a character, but it will be next to impossible to do so realistically. And if you cannot realistically play a character then did you really chose the background for roleplaying value?
Wailer
QUOTE (D2F @ Apr 29 2010, 10:37 AM) *
interest rates of his debt.
40/h per week he is unavailable. Put in another 50h a week to be with his family. Add on top of that a monthly rate of 4,500¥ just to cover the interest rates of his debt and 20% increased lifestyle cost overall.
How would you combine that with the lifestyle and most importantly the working demands of a runner? What team would work with him in the first place? A week has a grand total of 168h. Out of those he will have to spend a minimum of 49h asleep and another 50h for his responsibilities. That leaves 69h raw free time, in which gambling has not even been addressed, yet.
Can you say "Burn Out Syndrome"? I wasn't saying that you can't play such a character, but it will be next to impossible to do so realistically. And if you cannot realistically play a character then did you really chose the background for roleplaying value?


So, you're basically saying that it's impossible for a dude with a college loan and a startup family to hold a second job?

50h a week with your family? Man. Sadly kid, that's the first thing to be re-routed towards bringing in additional cash. As far as 49h asleep? 1) I don't get that much IRL and I'm hardly as busy as the proposed character and 2) What do you think drugs are for? You can argue that they cost more, but in a situation like this, the cost is far less than the ability to push the body (or time) further. Is it a recipe for Burnout? Certainly. But that's the lifestyle.

It really depends on the way you play, but for me - this type of character - pushed to the brink of necessity, desperate and locked in a downward spiral, willing to sacrifice his soul to support his family - is the perfect type to be lured to the Shadows. It might be pretty anti-Mohawk'd of me to say, but only the kids who spend too much time watching 'trid are lured to the shadows looking for Glam.

That said - I agree most with the person who said cap the benefits of Negative Qualities at 35 points. If someone wants to pick more because "it just makes sense", more power to them! I tell my players to go for it. If people roleplay their Limitations (regardless of 'unpaid' status or not), I award extra karma. Or a regain a point of Edge. Side-Plot hooks are -always- their own reward, as well. If people are only doing it for extra BP, then it doesn't really matter eh? Luckily, I've hatched my players from KinderEggs and there's not a Min/Maxxer in the bunch.

- Wailer
Karoline
I'd have to disagree with you D2F.

First, if he can't make enough money at his job to cover debt and lifestyle, that is exactly the sort of thing that might push someone to become a runner. Being in need of money is not something that prevents someone being a runner. Running isn't 'Oh, I've got extra time and money on my hands. Maybe I'll pick up highly illegal, high mortality rate work just for the fun of it.'

As for the time crunch... well, everyone is going to have that 49 hours of sleep requirement, so no point in putting that into your calculation, and that isn't taking into consideration that he could have a sleep regulator.

Still, he has nearly 70 hours a week (and that's spending a very respectable 10 hours a week for family time. Better than alot of modern day people that don't have anything besides work to worry about) that he can devote to running. Given that a run generally consists of 1. meet a J 2. Do legwork 3. Do the job 4. Meet the J again.

Now, steps 1, 3, and 4 all take about an hour each. 3 might take a bit more, but we still aren't looking at massive time requirements, and easily fit within the 70 hours that this character has available. The legwork, well, that is highly variable. Sometimes leg work is only a few hours, as the J doesn't give much time, and if it is more... well, maybe the character just isn't the sort that will contribute a ton to legwork, or maybe he makes some calls during his lunch break or heck, even office hours.

Suppose my point is that I don't see running as being something that takes 70+ hours a week and is impossible to fit in with having a full time job. Heck, in all honesty, the guy has plenty of time to work 40h a week, get enough sleep, go on jobs, run a bit of legwork, spend some time with the family, and go out gambling. Now, maybe he won't join the team for celebrator drinks after finishing a mission, and maybe he won't be available for a mission that requires him to leave the area for a couple weeks, but most runners aren't real enthusiastic about leaving their home turf behind anyway.

Oh, also remember that plenty of archetypes are actually expected to spend that same 40ish hours a week working on stuff (Hackers and riggers particularly, and mages have a fair bit of downtime stuff they do) and yet no one claims they won't have enough time to manage a run while doing that. Heck, most people complain about them not being able to spend more time on that work.

Edit:
QUOTE (Wailer @ Apr 29 2010, 06:10 AM) *
I've hatched my players from KinderEggs and there's not a Min/Maxxer in the bunch.


I love those!
D2F
QUOTE (Wailer @ Apr 29 2010, 11:10 AM) *
So, you're basically saying that it's impossible for a dude with a college loan and a startup family to hold a second job?

"Shadowrunner" isn't just a "second job". Yes, I am saying a dude with a college loan and a startup family will find it next to impossibel to be a shadowrunner.

QUOTE (Wailer @ Apr 29 2010, 11:10 AM) *
50h a week with your family?

Read again: It's 10h a week you spend with your family in my excemple. The other 40 is work.

QUOTE (Wailer @ Apr 29 2010, 11:10 AM) *
As far as 49h asleep? 1) I don't get that much IRL and I'm hardly as busy as the proposed character and 2) What do you think drugs are for? You can argue that they cost more, but in a situation like this, the cost is far less than the ability to push the body (or time) further. Is it a recipe for Burnout? Certainly. But that's the lifestyle.

7h sleep a day is the medical minimum. Anything less than that s more than unhealthy and not just inconvenient. A person with less than 7h of sleep a day will perform horribly as a Shadowrunner. He will have lowered concentration, lowered endurance, lowered perception, lowered hand-eye coordination and lowered reflexes.

QUOTE (Wailer @ Apr 29 2010, 11:10 AM) *
It really depends on the way you play, but for me - this type of character - pushed to the brink of necessity, desperate and locked in a downward spiral, willing to sacrifice his soul to support his family - is the perfect type to be lured to the Shadows. It might be pretty anti-Mohawk'd of me to say, but only the kids who spend too much time watching 'trid are lured to the shadows looking for Glam.

I didn't say the character was impossible to play and as a pure story character he'd be fine. The moment he is supposed to work together with a team, he becomes completely unbelievable. And what self-respecting team would take him, anyway?

QUOTE (Wailer @ Apr 29 2010, 11:10 AM) *
That said - I agree most with the person who said cap the benefits of Negative Qualities at 35 points. If someone wants to pick more because "it just makes sense", more power to them! I tell my players to go for it. If people roleplay their Limitations (regardless of 'unpaid' status or not), I award extra karma. Or a regain a point of Edge. Side-Plot hooks are -always- their own reward, as well. If people are only doing it for extra BP, then it doesn't really matter eh? Luckily, I've hatched my players from KinderEggs and there's not a Min/Maxxer in the bunch.

- Wailer

I can see where you're coming from. I just don't agree that every background aspect needs a rules representation. You can have a wife and kid, without the dependands quality. You can have a day job without the day job quality (allowing for more irregular working hours). You can have a gambling addiction without the addiction quality (allowing you to ignore it, if it's nescessary).

I get the desire to build more complex backgrounds. hell, I wish more players would devise complex backgrouds. But you don't need a particular quality just because it describes something similar to your background.

Most importantly: Character background is NEVER a justification rules exceptions.
D2F
QUOTE (Karoline @ Apr 29 2010, 11:19 AM) *
I'd have to disagree with you D2F.

Well, you are certainly entitled to.

I just don't see a Jhonson being all to happy if you answer him "No sorry, Mr. Jhonson, I can't do that run on Mistuhama on friday, that's where my little girl has her play. How about Sturday afternoon? That would fit my schedule".
Karoline
QUOTE (D2F @ Apr 29 2010, 11:03 AM) *
7h sleep a day is the medical minimum. Anything less than that s more than unhealthy and not just inconvenient. A person with less than 7h of sleep a day will perform horribly as a Shadowrunner. He will have lowered concentration, lowered endurance, lowered perception, lowered hand-eye coordination and lowered reflexes.

Actually 7 hours of sleep a day is the medical average, not minimum. I assure you, most collage students get far less than 7 hours of sleep a day for months on end. I personally rarely sleep more than 6 hours, and that is preference, not because I'm time crunched. I seem to recall at least a couple of presidents that didn't sleep much either (Lincoln and someone else I think, maybe Roosevelt?).

QUOTE
I didn't say the character was impossible to play and as a pure story character he'd be fine. The moment he is supposed to work together with a team, he becomes completely unbelievable. And what self-respecting team would take him, anyway?

Why? Like I already explained, 50 hours a week isn't going to make or break a runner, and several other types spend more time than that on personal pursuits anyway (Hackers, rigger, and mages mostly) And also, 10 hours a week of family time is alot even in modern times, could see that being alot lower, especially when the person is pressed for money and such.

QUOTE
I just don't see a Jhonson being all to happy if you answer him "No sorry, Mr. Jhonson, I can't do that run on Mistuhama on friday, that's where my little girl has her play. How about Sturday afternoon? That would fit my schedule".


Well, then the guy doesn't get the job, or is forced to miss his daughter's play. How many parents now even now, without crushing debt or anything like that as a motivator miss the big play or big game or whatever? I think the problem is that you're viewing this person as an upstanding model sort of person, as opposed to the sort of father that is always missing, always 'out', always smells of bar rooms when he's home, never manages to keep a promise to his family and so on.
Ophis
QUOTE (D2F @ Apr 29 2010, 05:03 PM) *
Most importantly: Character background is NEVER a justification rules exceptions.


I my games, character backgrounds are the ONLY justification for rules exceptions.
D2F
QUOTE (Ophis @ Apr 29 2010, 04:29 PM) *
I my games, character backgrounds are the ONLY justification for rules exceptions.

I don't tink anything but rules contradictions are a reason for rules excemptions.
Wailer
Here is a pedestal. Here is a Shadowrunner standing on that pedestal. Here's your issue.

I see 'Shadowrunner' as a criminal. A catch-all term for a variety of skillsets, motivations and varying moral/ethical lackings. I get the feeling that to qualify as a Shadowrunner in your eyes, s/he's pretty much gotta be the Mr. Pink w/Mirrorshades 'I'm a f'n Professional' type Prime Runner with no ties and a stone cold coolness.

Some jobs require very few man-hours like Karoline said, some jobs require the uber awesome plan, days of legwork/stakeouts/etc and a week(+) of Globetrotting that the 'Prime Runners' do.

Sure. The dude with the 9-5 job would have serious issues taking a week off of work to go chase Awakened Mardurs in Bavaria only to get tied up in a plot involving Lofwyr, two dozen strippers, and a troll with a speech impediment - but hell, I think if he were that caliber of Runner, he could bail on the 9-5.

However, the dude with the 9-5 and a family, could easily pull off local runs of a Missions™ caliber/timespan - pull in some extra cash, and still be home to make breakfast for the kids. Will he have to hit some NoDoz, or drink coffee like a fish the next day at work? Sure, but that 3-5K that he pulled in last night doing some illegal drek on the side will -seriously- help out with his finances. One run like this a week would have him caught up on the bills in no time ... OOOH even faster if he was able to hit the numbers on that big race! (Which of course never happens, and he gets caught in the downward spiral) Even one local, milk run every other week, or once a month, could totally make life better for his family.

The most detrimental part of this dude is that he has a SIN, which I'm surprised you haven't jumped on. That's easily the biggest issue that this dude would have. But if he;s desperate enough, he's desperate enough.

QUOTE
I can see where you're coming from. I just don't agree that every background aspect needs a rules representation. You can have a wife and kid, without the dependands quality. You can have a day job without the day job quality (allowing for more irregular working hours). You can have a gambling addiction without the addiction quality (allowing you to ignore it, if it's nescessary).

I get the desire to build more complex backgrounds. hell, I wish more players would devise complex backgrouds. But you don't need a particular quality just because it describes something similar to your background.


I totally agree. You don't need the qualities to represent every background issue. It doesn't really matter. Sometimes players just like to see stuff on their sheets and that works for me smile.gif For me, it's the story that matters - and I like the story of Joe Normal resorting to damning criminal activities just to keep up with the Jones, his struggles, and his resulting fall from grace. It's like the miracle of Shadowrunner birth. WTB more Noir. smile.gif

QUOTE
Most importantly: Character background is NEVER a justification rules exceptions.


This is a style thing. For me, Story trumps RuleFu. I'm just gifted with players right now that love the setting and RP, and don't spend hours of their day number crunching and trying to break shit - I've had twink groups in the past where I'd be more likely to agree with you, though. The great thing about Shadowrun, is that I've found that if you give your players enough slack on the leash, they'll police themselves.
D2F
QUOTE (Karoline @ Apr 29 2010, 04:26 PM) *
Actually 7 hours of sleep a day is the medical average, not minimum. I assure you, most collage students get far less than 7 hours of sleep a day for months on end. I personally rarely sleep more than 6 hours, and that is preference, not because I'm time crunched. I seem to recall at least a couple of presidents that didn't sleep much either (Lincoln and someone else I think, maybe Roosevelt?).

So, your counter isn anecdotal evidence?


QUOTE (Karoline @ Apr 29 2010, 04:26 PM) *
Why? Like I already explained, 50 hours a week isn't going to make or break a runner, and several other types spend more time than that on personal pursuits anyway (Hackers, rigger, and mages mostly) And also, 10 hours a week of family time is alot even in modern times, could see that being alot lower, especially when the person is pressed for money and such.

The team will not want to structure THEIR schedules based on HIS needs. That's why.


QUOTE (Karoline @ Apr 29 2010, 04:26 PM) *
Well, then the guy doesn't get the job, or is forced to miss his daughter's play. How many parents now even now, without crushing debt or anything like that as a motivator miss the big play or big game or whatever? I think the problem is that you're viewing this person as an upstanding model sort of person, as opposed to the sort of father that is always missing, always 'out', always smells of bar rooms when he's home, never manages to keep a promise to his family and so on.

Okay, maybe I should a more direct excemple: A Jhonson won't accept "Sorry, I can't run against Mitsuhama on Weekdays, I need to stand behind the grill at Happy Burgers" as a viable answer. They simply won't deal with you. Maybe you can convice your team, but no way are you going to convince your Jhonson.
D2F
QUOTE (Wailer @ Apr 29 2010, 04:38 PM) *
This is a style thing. For me, Story trumps RuleFu. I'm just gifted with players right now that love the setting and RP, and don't spend hours of their day number crunching and trying to break shit - I've had twink groups in the past where I'd be more likely to agree with you, though. The great thing about Shadowrun, is that I've found that if you give your players enough slack on the leash, they'll police themselves.


"But my backround says it: I am Lofwyr's beloved step brother."

No, background must not take precedence over rules.
Wailer
QUOTE (D2F @ Apr 29 2010, 05:43 PM) *
"But my backround says it: I am Lofwyr's beloved step brother."

No, background must not take precedence over rules.


Do you always bring a PAC to a Knife fight? smile.gif

I never said backgrounds are unpoliced. A bad story is still a bad story. But a good story is way more important than a rule. Catalyst publishes the guidelines, but what you run is your game. You just have to have the cojones to say 'No, I don't like that' as opposed to pushing up your glasses and saying 'Hnngh, sorry, but that's against the rules."



Udoshi
D2F, in this hypothetical example, you're not being exactly fair to the hypothetical player. He's not even getting a -chance- to explain to the team or their employer why he can't make it. You're just assuming he tries, and fails, and they know already. Eff that. A good roleplayer can sell their cover story, and they should definitely deserve the chance to - that's part of the fun. Instead of skipping right to 'you fail, you suck, we won't hire you.'

And maybe, just maybe, the team kind of -need- the eight bound spirits this JoeAverage high-charisma summoner mage brings to the table - i mean, where -else- do you get a chance to hire a mojo-slinger for so cheap?

Wailer, I think you've hit the crux of the arguement with you post. I wasn't expecting the topic to take off so far, but I have to agree with everything you've said.

Wailer
QUOTE
But my backround says it: I am Lofwyr's beloved step brother.


Not that I'd accept it anyway, but I'm pretty sure there's a rule for that in RC. wink.gif
Karoline
QUOTE (D2F @ Apr 29 2010, 11:40 AM) *
So, your counter isn anecdotal evidence?

Well, if you'd like to provide the medical journal that you read that the minimum time needed is 7 hours in, I'd be happy to see what they have to say on the issue. Before that point though, I'll take my person experience and various things I've heard through the grape vine over things you've heard through the grape vine.

QUOTE
The team will not want to structure THEIR schedules based on HIS needs. That's why.

So he has a different team? So he has a team that accepts that this person can only work nights (Wow, what a strict requirement for shadowrunners) or weekends? Heck, maybe the entire team is people that have day jobs, or can otherwise find things to occupy themselves with during the day. Guess maybe you haven't been in many teams before. If they don't want to structure their wants around his needs, it really isn't a team.

QUOTE
Okay, maybe I should a more direct excemple: A Jhonson won't accept "Sorry, I can't run against Mitsuhama on Weekdays, I need to stand behind the grill at Happy Burgers" as a viable answer. They simply won't deal with you. Maybe you can convice your team, but no way are you going to convince your Jhonson.

Who gives a flip what a J 'won't accept'? If he doesn't accept the runner's conditions, the run doesn't happen. More likely though, is that word will be put out that this team is only available for jobs that can be done at night or on the weekend or whatever (I seriously can't imagine that cover jobs and such are actually that rare), and really, how often does a J say that a run must be done at X time? Maybe that it need to be done before X date, but not that it must be done at 11:53 on Tuesday morning.

I mean, so far you're saying that it is impossible for any runner to take the 40 hour day job quality and still be a runner, because being a runner excludes everything besides being a runner. So far, I really haven't seen that being the case. The man has plenty of free time in which to run, he just has a few requirements on when he can't run, and even those could maybe be bent if the pay is good enough.

QUOTE
"But my backround says it: I am Lofwyr's beloved step brother."

No, background must not take precedence over rules.


Funny, because I'm fairly sure there is nothing in the rules against that, but there is likely stuff in the background that is. Besides, the idea is that background can give a reason to bend/break rules, not that if you put it in your background it can, will, and must happen.
Udoshi
QUOTE (D2F @ Apr 29 2010, 10:43 AM) *
"But my backround says it: I am Lofwyr's beloved step brother."

No, background must not take precedence over rules.


Yeah, and I think we can all agree that backstory is kind of silly. However, the following is a good example of why sometimes the rules are silly, and the Gm ought to relax them.

QUOTE (Nixda @ Apr 28 2010, 11:01 AM) *
However, concerning game balance I especially like how Adepts can have a Type O system, while Mystic Adepts cannot.


"Hey, GM, I want to play a dude that -just happens- to have a type o system, and is Wanted/hunted for it by streetdocs that don't have their own type-o samples. But our group needs a mage, and I was thinking I'd do a mystic adept. Uh. Its five points over, but it really doesn't make sense that an adept can be one, but a msyadept can't. I don't get it. Can you work with me here?"

QUOTE (D2F @ Apr 29 2010, 10:03 AM) *
I get the desire to build more complex backgrounds. hell, I wish more players would devise complex backgrouds. But you don't need a particular quality just because it describes something similar to your background.


And I wish GM's would actually let players have some more rope to hang themselves with, if the situation makes sense. A slight change of attitude from 'oh god, thats five points over, hell no' to actually looking at what the player wants to do, thinking about it, and then making a decision based on what's in front of them, instead of 'the book'.
D2F
QUOTE (Wailer @ Apr 29 2010, 04:52 PM) *
Do you always bring a PAC to a Knife fight? smile.gif

I never said backgrounds are unpoliced. A bad story is still a bad story. But a good story is way more important than a rule. Catalyst publishes the guidelines, but what you run is your game. You just have to have the cojones to say 'No, I don't like that' as opposed to pushing up your glasses and saying 'Hnngh, sorry, but that's against the rules."


Obviously I am stating my own opinion and not a universal truth. And of course you are right that every group decides for themselves what's fun. No harm done as far as I am concerned. I just find it questionable to argue that "since it says it in my background, I need that quality". Not having a quality does not mean you don't have something like that in your background. It merely says that your background does not cause this specific rule to be applied. Saying that "I need this particular rule, or my background is null and void" is ridiculous.

QUOTE (Wailer @ Apr 29 2010, 04:56 PM) *
Not that I'd accept it anyway, but I'm pretty sure there's a rule for that in RC. wink.gif

There's also a rule for the max amount of BP spent on qualities. wink.gif

QUOTE (Udoshi @ Apr 29 2010, 05:09 PM) *
"Hey, GM, I want to play a dude that -just happens- to have a type o system, and is Wanted/hunted for it by streetdocs that don't have their own type-o samples. But our group needs a mage, and I was thinking I'd do a mystic adept. Uh. Its five points over, but it really doesn't make sense that an adept can be one, but a msyadept can't. I don't get it. Can you work with me here?"

This is how your excemple sounds to me translated: "Hey, I want to minmax my char and the rules won't allow it. Can I have an exception because of... no real reason, really?" Each quality represents a specific advantage or disadvantage. There is a reason the total amount is limited. What's the next thing? "Hey GM, the rules said I can't be a Technomacher and a Mystic Adept at the same time. I really, really want to play one though and I am a magical super clone of one of halberstam's babies caught in the 2.0 crash, turned awakened Technomancer. Can you work with me here?"

I know the two excemples are vastly different in scope and I am aware it's not a completely fair comparison, but the underlying argumentation is the same.

QUOTE (Karoline @ Apr 29 2010, 04:57 PM) *
Who gives a flip what a J 'won't accept'? If he doesn't accept the runner's conditions, the run doesn't happen.

The run doesn't happen, then you don't get paid. The Jhonson doesn't have to hire YOUR team, after all.
Udoshi
QUOTE (D2F @ Apr 29 2010, 02:19 PM) *
This is how your excemple sound tome translated: "Hey, I want to minmax my char and the rules won't allow it. Can I have an exception because of... no real reason, really?" Each quality represents a specific advantage or disadvantage. There is a reason the total amount is limited. What's the next thing? "Hey GM, the rules said I can't be a Technomacher and a Mystic Adept at the same time. I really, really want to play one though and I am a magical super clone of one of halberstam's babies caught in the 2.0 crash, turned awakened Technomancer. Can you work with me here?"

I know the two excemples are vastly different in scope and I am aware it's not a completely fair comparison, but the underlying argumentation is the same.


I have to admit, that made me laugh. Well played, good sir.
Karoline
QUOTE (D2F @ Apr 29 2010, 03:19 PM) *
The run doesn't happen, then you don't get paid. The Jhonson doesn't have to hire YOUR team, after all.


Yeah, but I'd be willing to bet there is more than one J in existence. Like I said, if the J absolutely positively must have the run happen at exactly 10:52 AM, then he doesn't go to the team that says up front "We don't do runs between 8AM and 5PM."
D2F
QUOTE (Udoshi @ Apr 29 2010, 09:03 PM) *
I have to admit, that made me laugh. Well played, good sir.

I aim to please biggrin.gif
RedFish
I don't think I've ever seen anyone make a double post with 18 hours in between wink.gif
D2F
QUOTE (RedFish @ Apr 30 2010, 02:51 PM) *
I don't think I've ever seen anyone make a double post with 18 hours in between wink.gif

Yeah, me stoooopid =/

QUOTE (Karoline @ Apr 29 2010, 09:17 PM) *
Yeah, but I'd be willing to bet there is more than one J in existence. Like I said, if the J absolutely positively must have the run happen at exactly 10:52 AM, then he doesn't go to the team that says up front "We don't do runs between 8AM and 5PM."

The kind of jobs that would be available to such a massivlely limited group would be few. And in such a situation, the Jhonson is still better off hiring another team, unles yours is extremely cheap.
Most official adventures are simply impossible to fit into that schedule, unless your husband with kid is willing to let the rest f the team do all the work, while he is off at stuffer shack.
That means the team is either very, very god friend from way, way back in the days, or they are just plain suckers.

Also, how excactly is a dad with kid struggling in SR, if he earns 5K a month? With 5K a month, this is what his Lifestýle would look like:

Your home is comfortable and cozy. You have stable utilities, although the occasional peak-usage brownout still occurs. Your home has room for a small family, with perhaps an extra guest room and enough comfortable furniture to fill it. It’s probably mass-produced, but it won’t break when someone sits on it. You probably have three or more household drones and a multi-function soy processing unit. Your walls are fully covered with AR paint or wallpaper. You may even have a collection of knick-knacks. Your CHN is secure enough that you could telecommute.
Your home is well equipped, and you can afford subscriptions to multiple entertainment sites. Date nights are more frequent, and you can go to the occasional large event. At this level, you can keep up pampering treatments and can budget for a modest vacation annually.
Your neighborhood is a pleasant, well-kept
community.in a suburban neighborhood. The public utilities, such as electricity and water, are reliable, the wireless coverage is up 24/7, and the neighborhood has a standing contract with a reputable police corporation (response times of less than five minutes). Drones patrol the streets, and you can go out at night without body armor. There are several popular chain restaurants to choose from, the grocery delivery services are well-stocked, and there is even a park to go to. Your neighbors are middle management, white-collar wage slaves and entrepreneurs. Neighborhood watches are common, and street crime is not.You are required to broadcast a SIN and ID at all times, though, like any upstanding citizen would.
The home is part of corporate-built wage-slave community. Security watches inside and out and keeps out unwanted visitors and casual thieves. Determined thieves will have to work to get access to your place. Locks and in-home security are above average. Your neighbors are likely to notice any suspicious characters or loud noises and call security. Smoke detectors and fire suppression systems are standard in all apartments and homes at
this level. Your Matrix system has an average firewall and will at least monitor itself for intrusions. There may be a Panicbutton in the home connected to contracted police or a silent alarm system
that contacts building security. Either way, you can feel safe and secure in your home. And on top of all that, when all your monthly bills are paid, you're still left with 1160¥ to your name that you can spend on your private hobby or the college fund of your little girl.
(Comforts/Nesessities/Enterteinment/Neighborhood/Security all 3, Corporate Owned)

Now, where does this sound like a struggling dad, pushed into the need to become a shadowrunner to feed his starving family?
Karoline
Really? How many illegal jobs do you think shadowrunners pull off in broad daylight? And that absolutely must be done during broad daylight as opposed to sometime at night? I'd hardly call being unavailable during the day 'letting the rest of the team do all the work.' The dad character may not quite be pulling their weight during legwork, but if he is a sammy or something, I don't see that being such a big issue as the sammy usually isn't expected to bring alot of intel to the table.

Also, I guess you missed the part where he was in debt from gambling, and so most (if not all or more than all) of his wages goes towards keeping the interest down.

Next time you play in a game (that isn't some large multi-day mission) count up how many hours you are actively in the mission between the hours of 8AM and 5PM.

Oh, and no idea how you come up with a 5/5/5/5/5 corporate owned for under 4k a month. A 5/5/5/5/5 corporate owned place costs 20k a month, not counting the 20% increase for having two extra people living there. Could do a 3/3/3/3/3 (middle class) corporate owned with wife and kid for 4560. Now put (as the character that started this had) a large chunk of debt on top of that (I think 30k was the amount taken, and so 45k worth of debt at start) and suddenly you have 9060 owed per month (and that's just to keep the interest down) with only 5k of income. And maybe this guy didn't 'decide' to become a runner, but his first run is the guy he owes money going "Okay, I'll cut out your interest this month if you do this one little thing for me..."

My main point is that yeah, sure, the character might have some troubles, but he isn't automatically unplayable, and the only factor that you've really claimed makes him unplayable is the day job quality.
Brazilian_Shinobi
I'll tell you one thing for sure.
Next campaign I'm gonna ask my GM to play a character exactly like this. The background is amazing.
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