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Jason Farlander
A few questions regarding laser weapons.

1) Are they assumed to burn through the target's body? They seem perfectly capable of burning through mil grade armor, so I would assume "yes," but I was wondering if anyone had opposing thoughts on the matter.

2) Assuming the answer to question 1 is yes, what reduction in power would result? Subquestions: Would you apply the power reduction effect of armor twice? Should the targets body attribute determine how much power the laser loses by passing through?

Suppose, for example, that a corp has set up a mirrored hallway with pressure sensors linked to a firelance laser, such that when the pressure sensors are tripped the laser fires and bounces throughout the hallway. How many times might a person get hit by the laser (assuming the initial firing angle was very slight), and should this require that someone in the hallway make multiple damage resistance tests? Would the laser pose a threat to additional targets farther down the hallway if the first target was a heavily armored troll?
BitBasher
Honestly, I would assume the laser would not burn through a body. I couldn't find any weblinks about it, but the fact that the laser is not a sustained beam would be a clue. Lasers in SR are not BF or FA, implying they are a brief bean, probably onblt 1/10 of a second or so.
Zazen
I've never played that a laser burns through a person.
ShadowPhoenix
I don't think there is really a "rule" for burn through, if I were going to use burn through(which I typically wouldn't) I'd say reduce by armor twice, one on the in and one on the out, as well as reduce laser power by body/2 (I'd say 1/2 because it's soft tissue, more likely to immolate easier than manufactured goods). problem I have with burn through is that the person would have just stand there and let the laser burn clean through, as well as the laser would have to hold out long enough for that to happen. IIRC isn't there overheating rules for lasers? not to mention don't they have limited ammo capacity?
HolyTrinity
The transmition of heat would cause the water in the human body to flashsteam. Resulting in large, explosive wounds. No cauterization or just a burned hole. We're looking at wounds similar to a bullet in the tissue destroyed. Lasers don't just "burn" through.
Fahr
I would think the laser is actually cooking the charechter rather than burning through him like a knife... but either is possible... I would say it would take a pretty massive laser to burn through mil-spec armor, a troll and then milspec armor again....

hmmm... the problem is that the firelance laser has no really good modern day equivelant... the only laser weapons I am aware of were for blinding or cooking of missles that were being launched, the cook off was AWACS plane mounted and huge, and it still had to hit the missle for 2-3 seconds before it would cook it off. (I don't think they have built one yet)

-Mike R.
Zazen
QUOTE (HolyTrinity)
The transmition of heat would cause the water in the human body to flashsteam. Resulting in large, explosive wounds. No cauterization or just a burned hole. We're looking at wounds similar to a bullet in the tissue destroyed. Lasers don't just "burn" through.

Is that speculation or is it based on something real?
Jason Farlander
BitBasher:

My first impression would be to agree with you, but even your basic Ares Redline can easily penetrate heavy hardened military armor and still be very difficult to stage down (TN 7, I believe). It seems to me that a human body would be easier to burn through than hardened military armor, though I may be wrong.
ShadowPhoenix
yeah, a body is squishy and should be much easier to slice through than heavy milspec armor. I'd say that using a redline and trying to shoot clean through milspec/troll/milspec is impossible though nyahnyah.gif




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now all we need is Sharks with lasers on their heads [Dr. Evil Pose]
Cray74
QUOTE (Jason Farlander)
A few questions regarding laser weapons.

1) Are they assumed to burn through the target's body?  They seem perfectly capable of burning through mil grade armor, so I would assume "yes," but I was wondering if anyone had opposing thoughts on the matter.

I'd say, "No." If you're putting enough energy into a beam that it will...

a) Burn through a patch of armor,
b) Evaporate tens or hundreds of grams of water while putting a narrow hole through a body, and
c) Perform a) and b) in a short enough period of time (~0.1 seconds? preferably less) that the beam does not get wiggled and scribbled all over the target due to attacker and target movement...

...then you've got a beam that will dump it's energy into the target so quickly that there'll be a surface explosion, not a penetrating beam.

I think an adequately fast discharge will not give the surface matter (armor and upper layers of flesh) enough time to move (burn/boil/evaporate) out of the way before the beam is done discharging, so the beam energy will just get dumped into a hotter and hotter patch of surface material. Bang! Surface explosion. Quite a focused, intense little explosion that gets through armor pretty easily, apparently. Remotely generated shaped charges even.

Longer discharges that would burn through a body would end up scribbled all over the target, and you'd have low penetration (which isn't the case for SR lasers).

If you don't want that physics-based interpretation, consider that the base damage of the man-portable lasers in SR is Moderate, which indicates damage less severe than through-and-through penetration. Moderate wounds fall into the "nasty flesh wound" category. This is like a small knife wielded by a strong person: good armor penetration, low flesh penetration (high power, low wound code).

If you're successful enough with the Moderate-base attack to change it to Deadly, you probably hit a near-surface vital organ, like the brain, heart, or liver.

QUOTE
Suppose, for example, that a corp has set up a mirrored hallway


Those can't be normal mirrors. Weapon-grade lasers will probably wreck normal mirrors before they reflect much. You'll need those funny-colored specialty optics laser-grade mirrors.

QUOTE
How many times might a person get hit by the laser (assuming the initial firing angle was very slight), and should this require that someone in the hallway make multiple damage resistance tests?

A person would be hit once per emitter. You might manage to split the beam ("beam splitter" mirrors, prisms, whatever) to get multiple attack opportunities per emitter, but each beam would be weaker than normal, and each beam would still only have one attack opportunity.
Jason Farlander
QUOTE (Cray74)
...then you've got a beam that will dump it's energy into the target so quickly that there'll be a surface explosion, not a penetrating beam.


That makes sense.
Req
For those of you using a penetration system that's seperate from power (AE?), how do you handle these lasers?

I'm doubting one will EVER show up in my games, but I'm curious.
ShadowPhoenix
Can't argue with physics, unless it's shadowrun! nyahnyah.gif rotfl.gif anyway, I usually agree with physics on things, but it's your game, and if you want a more "Dr. Evil/Movie Magic" kind of laser, then go for the can penetrate and a shaving mirror is enough to reflect it, and it can fire in streams like a flame thrower. otherwise, listen to Cray74 biggrin.gif
Austere Emancipator
QUOTE (Req)
For those of you using a penetration system that's seperate from power (AE?), how do you handle these lasers?

I'm doubting one will EVER show up in my games, but I'm curious.

Nor in mine, so I never bothered with rules for it. Sorry. nyahnyah.gif
REM
From what i know the human body is a lot more resiliant than a six inch block of steel in some ways. From what i have read the amount of water in the human body actually makes it harder to burn through it with a laser. Im not saying that this is a fact but it is what i have heard.
Req
While I think the "easier to go through 6" of steel than a human body" is probably a crock -

I had heard something along the lines of when you flash-heat tissue so the water explodes out as steam, now you've got a cloud of steam in the beam. That cloud can still absorb energy and mess with beam coherance, same way putting a laser beam through any particulate matter in the air would. I don't know if it would make any real difference with respect to Fictional Death Laser Guns, but maybe.
Austere Emancipator
Hmm, I started thinking about the Damage Code for a laser in my games... Assuming there was a surface explosion when the beam hit a (meta)human, how extensive would the damage be? I guess we're looking at skin completely burnt off in a significant area, but how deep would such damage go? Assuming it hit a person in the front of the thigh, what would happen to the thigh bone for example? How deep would the tissue damage extend?

And if there is a layer of body armor present, how would that affect the damage? Would the armor soak the majority of the force in the explosion, or would the beam just go right through the armor and then fuck up the guy inside?

My first hunch would be to keep the Damage Codes otherwise as they are (12M/15M/18M for RL/III/HV) but add a Penetration rating of (1/3rd Power). 12M/-4, 15M/-5, 18M/-6. Against Impact as normal.

Three minutes. This is it. Ground zero. Would you like to say a few words to mark the occation?
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Req @ Feb 18 2004, 03:09 PM)
While I think the "easier to go through 6" of steel than a human body" is probably a crock -

I had heard something along the lines of when you flash-heat tissue so the water explodes out as steam, now you've got a cloud of steam in the beam.  That cloud can still absorb energy and mess with beam coherance, same way putting a laser beam through any particulate matter in the air would.  I don't know if it would make any real difference with respect to Fictional Death Laser Guns, but maybe.

Yep; that's why continuous-fire lasers don't work too well. Fortunately, a single brief pulse is best anyway, thanks to the wonders of capacitors. Same problem happens with metal, too, I hear; people end up with a little cloud of gaseous steel for a few hundredths of a second that means the process of cutting is slowed. That may or may not be true, though.

~J
Req
QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
Three minutes. This is it. Ground zero. Would you like to say a few words to mark the occation?

Uh shtuh cuh thuk uh uhny.

Austere Emancipator
Trust me. Everything's gonna be fine.

You met me at a very strange time in my life.
mfb
hahah. i'm still not sure if i liked the book's ending or the movie's ending better.
Kagetenshi
Hm. I can't remember how the book's ending differed from the movie... guess it's time to reread the book.

~J
Req
[ Spoiler ]


Personally I thought the movie ending was much better. Plus it made me think of old-skool shadowrun - Tyler is a neo-anarchist if ever there was one. smile.gif
Neruda's Ghost
QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
Yep; that's why continuous-fire lasers don't work too well.


biggrin.gif
That's why you have those nifty straps on all standard hero slicing tables.

"Goldfinger, surely you don't expect me to talk."
"No, Mr. Bond, I expect you to DIE..."
Kagetenshi
By the by, AE: even if the armor did absorb all the energy, that's still an explosion of some very hot materials right next to the body. Enough to provide some cushioning, but even if the laser itself never directly agitated any part of the target's body, they'd still be taking some nasty damage.
Someone with more direct experience with lasers will probably be better at saying how deep the wound goes, though.

~J
ShadowPhoenix
is anyone here a evil genius with laser experience? nyahnyah.gif

anyway, I'd imagine even if the weapon doesn't penetrate the armor it can still hurt a lot(hot armor touching body = ouch) I'd say since there isn't a lot of rules in regards to this, that it should be houseruled to flavor, either use physics or movie magic, either way, do whatever works. maybe SR4 will include some updates to Laser rules nyahnyah.gif
Req
The laser in my cell sorter only puts out a hundred mW at 488nm, enough to really do a number on your eye if you stare down the beam, but not that much else. At least, I've never witnessed a steam explosion from sticking my fingers through it... smile.gif
Adarael
QUOTE
Is that speculation or is it based on something real?


Talking about flash state-changes in human flesh when exposed to high-energy weapons...

He's right. Speaking in terms of physics, any coherent beam made of electromagnetic energy that has sufficient energy to harm a person will start burning them. Pretty basic, yeah? We all know that. Now, given that the laser has a base power of what, 15M? That means that the beam itself is not especially damaging in terms of surface area, blast, or wound cavity - but it IS extremely good at penetrating armor and near impossible to absorb with the body's own resilience. So it's a pretty tight, pretty damn hot beam.

At varying power levels, a laser will do a wide variety of things to a body. While we lack certain types of *really* high power lasers, people HAVE tested blocks of meat in the path of lasers. A couple of things happen:

The 'power' ratings here are wholly arbitrary, mind you.

1) Low power - the meat has a hole burned in it, nearby flesh melting and running away in the same way that fat melts and runs when you're cooking a burger or rendering tallow for candles. The moisture in the meat boils and expands, cooking said meat in a very similar way to how meat is cooked in a microwave.
2) Medium power - the inherent moisture in the meat is heated so rapidly it becomes steam, tearing the meat apart from the inside. This would PROBABLY (because I can't claim to have seen anything first hand) take the form of shredded cracks running out from the heated point (re: entry wound of laser) along stress points in the muscle or bone. If a bone was struck at this power, the marrow and liquids in the center of the bone would cause it to split, if not shatter.
3) High power - Steam is no longer the only cause of damage; the extreme heat of the laser blast would cause some measure of flash-vaporization of tissue itself. Suddenly super-heating portiions of a body would cause them to... well, not be there any more. Such a rapid expansion would also be like unto having a small explosion go off near that portion of the body. I.E. there would probably be some secondary damage from shockwaves and overpressure.

Make sense?

Basically, any laser hot enough to cut through armor or penetrate thin walls (a 15M weapon) would have at least the 'low-power' effect.
Zazen
QUOTE (Adarael)
2) Medium power - the inherent moisture in the meat is heated so rapidly it becomes steam, tearing the meat apart from the inside.

That's cool. That's how I'll describe it from now on.

QUOTE
This would PROBABLY... would cause... would cause... would cause them to... there would probably be...


I was kind of trying to avoid that sort of speculation nyahnyah.gif Sounds like that "medium power" steam-explosion thing has actually happened to meat, though, so I'm satisfied. Thanks smile.gif
Adarael
Well, the thing is, I'd say 'does', but there's been a finite number of high-power laser tests on meat. I'm only vaguely familiar with them, so don't take my word as gospel - but these suppositions are upheld according to biology and the math involved, so hey.
Lilt
So: Anyone want to hazard guesses about Laser-Grade Mirrored armor? I guess it would be possible on hard armor (sec-grade and mil-spec), or just some more absorbant laser-wise armor? Mirror armor would need to be clean, Like: clean-room-clean, to work... What about a reflect spell that surrounds a character with a mirror-like effect?
Austere Emancipator
Okay, going with that Medium power level damage, 12M/15M/18M seems reasonable, because the lethality of such wounds is not significantly greater than what you get with a high-powered handgun. Those wounds would, however, cause almost the same amount of loss of functioning in any subject, because of the nature of the damage.

So I'm sticking with the Damage Codes as I first put them.

QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
By the by, AE: even if the armor did absorb all the energy, that's still an explosion of some very hot materials right next to the body. Enough to provide some cushioning, but even if the laser itself never directly agitated any part of the target's body, they'd still be taking some nasty damage.

Thing is, body armor can handle explosions and heat rather well. At least a whole lot better than a human. So if there indeed is some sort of explosion when the beam hits the armor, the subsequent damage to the subject beyond should be significantly lesser.

There are many levels of "nasty damage". Getting a 6" blade jammed into your stomach might seem like "nasty damage" to most people, but in SR terms it might be 4M.
Kagetenshi
True enough.

~J
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