...how exactly does Infiltration interact with Astral Perception and Astral beings?
The actual descriptions are extremely vague. Granted, I'm basing my question around a First Print SR4 book but I couldn't really find anything in the errata that clarified things for me.
The common consensus at the table I'm at right now is that Astral Perception pretty much void Infiltration. IE if you are in LoS of a mage with Astral Perception or who has gone astral you are automatically seen as per the description on SR4 page 182 concerning Astral Forms and Auras being "bright and vibrant, thus being obvious to see". Yeah, it states that Auras are less bright then Astral Forms but they are still described as fairly obvious. But as it stands right now, it seems like mages are pretty much a hard counter to any stealther (assuming LoS and a simple action to shift to Astral Perception).
Can anyone clarify for me exactly how Infiltration and Astral Perception are run? What about Invisibility and the Astral? References are welcome.
Full Version: Infiltration vs Astral Perception
Remember that basically all cover still applies in astral, plus transparent things (windows). Infiltration is a wide range of skills and tactics, which includes hiding behind things; it all depends on the situation.
Invisibility is extra visible in the astral, because it's a sustained spell.
Invisibility is extra visible in the astral, because it's a sustained spell.
Well, a great deal of stealth also involves being where you're not supposed to be or looking like something not human.
Examples are gillie suits, camo suits (ruthenium) or perhaps hanging suspended from the ceiling and also hiding in shadows.
Many of these things seem to be neatly defeated by Astral Perception. A mage shifting to astral turns a stealther into a bright, rainbow colored cartoon cutout. Yes, terrain can still get in the way...but many of the normal tactics and tools don't seem particularly valid.
That's if I'm reading this right?
Examples are gillie suits, camo suits (ruthenium) or perhaps hanging suspended from the ceiling and also hiding in shadows.
Many of these things seem to be neatly defeated by Astral Perception. A mage shifting to astral turns a stealther into a bright, rainbow colored cartoon cutout. Yes, terrain can still get in the way...but many of the normal tactics and tools don't seem particularly valid.
That's if I'm reading this right?
It's true that the tactics are different. In an open field with a ghillie sniper, astral sight will spot him as an Obvious target; in other terrain (indoors, rough urban, etc.), astral sight is no better than physical sight. You just have to keep track of the situation, because camo isn't the only thing Infiltration does. 
Astral perception certainly doesn't void infiltration.
Invisibility won't help on the astral at all (from the spell description: "Her aura is still visible to astral perception")...some would argue that the addition of the spell's aura would make it harder to sneak.
OTOH, most of the same rules apply to astral perception vs. standard perception - if you're standing in LoS of someone, they pretty much see you, period. (Though astral perception requires the non-defaultable assensing skill, not the perception skill)
If you're actually trying to sneak, however:
You can try to blend in with other auras (a mage or spirit would have a pretty tough time picking out the shadowrunner simply walking down the hall among the wageslaves, for instance...or from the potted plant in the case of something as thick as a watcher spirit.)
You can try to block line of sight (which is actually a bit easier, as not only do things like couches & walls block LoS on the astral, but so do simple glass panels, as well as some types of wards.)
Worst case for a mundane is an astral-presence-only spirit with a good vantage point...and you still really aren't any worse off than you would be vs. a motion-detector, chemsniffer, or other sensor you're unaware of.
Invisibility won't help on the astral at all (from the spell description: "Her aura is still visible to astral perception")...some would argue that the addition of the spell's aura would make it harder to sneak.
OTOH, most of the same rules apply to astral perception vs. standard perception - if you're standing in LoS of someone, they pretty much see you, period. (Though astral perception requires the non-defaultable assensing skill, not the perception skill)
If you're actually trying to sneak, however:
You can try to blend in with other auras (a mage or spirit would have a pretty tough time picking out the shadowrunner simply walking down the hall among the wageslaves, for instance...or from the potted plant in the case of something as thick as a watcher spirit.)
You can try to block line of sight (which is actually a bit easier, as not only do things like couches & walls block LoS on the astral, but so do simple glass panels, as well as some types of wards.)
Worst case for a mundane is an astral-presence-only spirit with a good vantage point...and you still really aren't any worse off than you would be vs. a motion-detector, chemsniffer, or other sensor you're unaware of.
Mm, good point: Infiltration includes hiding in crowds.
i guess the single biggest problem is that if one have a watcher or other spirit playing guard in some location, a mundane cant tell as the room would look empty.
If you knew that the guards were *only* present astrally, then they could be defeated by simply hiding inside a cardboard box and scooting along.
As far a camoflage goes: it seems largely a matter of GM discretion how far away from your physical body your aura extends. Normal clothing can't hide it, but a 1/4 inch thick piece of cardboard can. I would imagine that it wouldn't be that hard to do variations of the cardboard box trick that didn't limit your mobility too much or make you stand out in the physical world that bad, but at least give an astral perciever a partial cover penalties.
As far a camoflage goes: it seems largely a matter of GM discretion how far away from your physical body your aura extends. Normal clothing can't hide it, but a 1/4 inch thick piece of cardboard can. I would imagine that it wouldn't be that hard to do variations of the cardboard box trick that didn't limit your mobility too much or make you stand out in the physical world that bad, but at least give an astral perciever a partial cover penalties.
We've been through this a few times before. I remember debating it quite a lot actually.
The basic idea is this:
Infiltration used by a mundane still works against astral observers, regardless if the mundane is aware of astral security or not. Just like with cameras.
Astral observers can receive perception bonuses for contrast. IE: a living thing against a background being primarily comprised of unliving things, or vice versa. A person sneaking in a warehouse is easier to spot on astral then a person sneaking in a forest. Why? Because the colorful aura stands out against gray boxes and concrete but not as much against plant life that also has auras. Sounds a lot like regular camouflage rules to me. Conversely, some GMs may with to give perception penalties to a spirit if they are perceiving auras against other auras as it could act as a camouflage.
Astral observers can receive a perception bonus for superior positioning. Basically a bonus the spirit gets from making the perception check in a place that has a higher chance of seeing something. Such as on a catwalk. This is no different then regular perception, as this bonus could be applied to ANYONE who has a superior position, the only difference here is the mundane might not be able to see the observer as it could be on the astral.
Shadows are still visible in the astral. Just as visible, really. You can still see gray objects can't you? They lack DETAIL, but not shape, form, or movement. Assensing can still be used on them as well. This means the cardboard box idea isn't as great as it sounds. A spirit can still say "that box doesn't belong here", or they could see it moving, or they could notice it's not in the same place as before. Just like a normal security force. Though it could work in a place that has lots of cardboard boxes.
A GM can rule that something is "Immediately Noticeable" and requires no roll to see. In my games this comes up as EXTREAMLY superior positioning, like standing in front of a door at the end of straight hallway that has no visual obstructions, or in the event of a critical glitch or something. This is also no different then regular perception other then the mundane might not get a chance to see the spirit.
The only big difference here is that the sneaker might not get a chance to see potential observers and avoid them. If you aren't already having infiltrators make multiple perception rolls and let them pick different paths when infiltrating, then you shouldn't make them with astral. If you are, then it's not much different then having a camera in a place they can't see.
The basic idea is this:
Infiltration used by a mundane still works against astral observers, regardless if the mundane is aware of astral security or not. Just like with cameras.
Astral observers can receive perception bonuses for contrast. IE: a living thing against a background being primarily comprised of unliving things, or vice versa. A person sneaking in a warehouse is easier to spot on astral then a person sneaking in a forest. Why? Because the colorful aura stands out against gray boxes and concrete but not as much against plant life that also has auras. Sounds a lot like regular camouflage rules to me. Conversely, some GMs may with to give perception penalties to a spirit if they are perceiving auras against other auras as it could act as a camouflage.
Astral observers can receive a perception bonus for superior positioning. Basically a bonus the spirit gets from making the perception check in a place that has a higher chance of seeing something. Such as on a catwalk. This is no different then regular perception, as this bonus could be applied to ANYONE who has a superior position, the only difference here is the mundane might not be able to see the observer as it could be on the astral.
Shadows are still visible in the astral. Just as visible, really. You can still see gray objects can't you? They lack DETAIL, but not shape, form, or movement. Assensing can still be used on them as well. This means the cardboard box idea isn't as great as it sounds. A spirit can still say "that box doesn't belong here", or they could see it moving, or they could notice it's not in the same place as before. Just like a normal security force. Though it could work in a place that has lots of cardboard boxes.
A GM can rule that something is "Immediately Noticeable" and requires no roll to see. In my games this comes up as EXTREAMLY superior positioning, like standing in front of a door at the end of straight hallway that has no visual obstructions, or in the event of a critical glitch or something. This is also no different then regular perception other then the mundane might not get a chance to see the spirit.
The only big difference here is that the sneaker might not get a chance to see potential observers and avoid them. If you aren't already having infiltrators make multiple perception rolls and let them pick different paths when infiltrating, then you shouldn't make them with astral. If you are, then it's not much different then having a camera in a place they can't see.
All right.
Thanks for these tips, and I'm sorry if its been gone over before.
It still seems like Astral Perception is rather strong against especially mundane stealthers, since it negates things like ruthenium, thermal compensation, etc.
I'll bring up these points to my current GM though (I'm playing a stealther obviously =P), and see what he has to say.
Thanks for these tips, and I'm sorry if its been gone over before.
It still seems like Astral Perception is rather strong against especially mundane stealthers, since it negates things like ruthenium, thermal compensation, etc.
I'll bring up these points to my current GM though (I'm playing a stealther obviously =P), and see what he has to say.
Basically, the only thing is to express as a magician, mystic adept, or adept, initiate and pick up the Masking metamagic technique. It's basically the only way to actually hide from a dual natured person (from someone who's viewing the physical and astral planes at the same time). Latent Awakening is only 5 BP, so you could pick that quality up for only 10 karma.
QUOTE
New positive quality = (BP Cost x 2) in karma
SR4A p270
SR4A p270
QUOTE
Latent Awakening (5 BP)
A character who takes the Latent Awakening quality starts the game as a mundane but may Awaken later and become magically active. At the start of the game, the character does not possess a Magic attribute and may not invest BPs in magical skills, spells, or bound spirits. The character may not have the Adept, Astral Sight, Magician, Mystic Adept, or Spell/Spirit Knack quality.
At some point during gameplay, the gamemaster may decide that the character Awakens. This decision is completely in the gamemaster’s hands, and should be based entirely on creating a good story—and if the player is surprised, even better. Keep in mind that this is a chance for the player to roleplay the process of becoming magical—it should be a slow path filled with confusion, fear, and the sudden awareness of an entirely new world. It should not be viewed as a get-badass-quick power boost. The character is not likely to understand how to use or control his powers at first, and may need to seek the guidance of others.
When the gamemaster decides the character has Awakened, the character immediately gains a Magic attribute of 1. If the character has an Essence lower than 6 (due to implants or other causes), he still starts with a Magic of 1, but his maximum Magic attribute is adjusted according to the Essence loss. If the character’s Essence is less than 1, he has lost any chance to be Awakened.
The gamemaster also chooses either the Adept, Astral Sight, Magician, Mystic Adept, or Spell/Spirit Knack quality, and immediately applies it to the character. This quality defines how the character has Awakened. The gamemaster should not, however, tell the player which quality the character has gained until the character figures it out for himself. This quality does not come free, of course. The character must pay for the quality with Karma, at a cost of (the quality’s BP Cost – 5) x 2. For example, the Mystic Adept quality would cost 10 Karma (10 BP – 5 = 5, x 2). If the character does not have Karma available at that time, the gamemaster immediately collects it from any Karma rewards he earns until the debt is paid off.
The gamemaster may also choose one spell, adept power, or spirit type (as appropriate for the character’s tradition) for the character to start with. It is highly possible that this is the magical power that character expresses when he Awakens. Keep in mind that many Awakenings occur as a result of stress—losing a loved one, being attacked, and so on. The character will not know how to cast this spell, conjure this spirit, or use that power until he has had proper training, of course—it is merely an accidental expression of the character’s Talent, controlled entirely by the gamemaster. The gamemaster can, in fact, treat the character as if he has the Cursed quality for a limited period (and without the bonus BP), until he gets his magic under control.
If the gamemaster allows it, the character may also acquire other Magic-required qualities when he Awakens, such as the Mentor Spirit quality. The gamemaster chooses which qualities (positive or negative) to apply. These qualities must also be paid for—simply add the BP cost of all qualities together before subtracting 5 and multiplying by 2 for the Karma cost, as noted above.
Once the character has Awakened, he may learn and improve the Magic attribute, magical skills, spells, and other magical abilities normally, as dictated by his type of Awakening.
SM p25
A character who takes the Latent Awakening quality starts the game as a mundane but may Awaken later and become magically active. At the start of the game, the character does not possess a Magic attribute and may not invest BPs in magical skills, spells, or bound spirits. The character may not have the Adept, Astral Sight, Magician, Mystic Adept, or Spell/Spirit Knack quality.
At some point during gameplay, the gamemaster may decide that the character Awakens. This decision is completely in the gamemaster’s hands, and should be based entirely on creating a good story—and if the player is surprised, even better. Keep in mind that this is a chance for the player to roleplay the process of becoming magical—it should be a slow path filled with confusion, fear, and the sudden awareness of an entirely new world. It should not be viewed as a get-badass-quick power boost. The character is not likely to understand how to use or control his powers at first, and may need to seek the guidance of others.
When the gamemaster decides the character has Awakened, the character immediately gains a Magic attribute of 1. If the character has an Essence lower than 6 (due to implants or other causes), he still starts with a Magic of 1, but his maximum Magic attribute is adjusted according to the Essence loss. If the character’s Essence is less than 1, he has lost any chance to be Awakened.
The gamemaster also chooses either the Adept, Astral Sight, Magician, Mystic Adept, or Spell/Spirit Knack quality, and immediately applies it to the character. This quality defines how the character has Awakened. The gamemaster should not, however, tell the player which quality the character has gained until the character figures it out for himself. This quality does not come free, of course. The character must pay for the quality with Karma, at a cost of (the quality’s BP Cost – 5) x 2. For example, the Mystic Adept quality would cost 10 Karma (10 BP – 5 = 5, x 2). If the character does not have Karma available at that time, the gamemaster immediately collects it from any Karma rewards he earns until the debt is paid off.
The gamemaster may also choose one spell, adept power, or spirit type (as appropriate for the character’s tradition) for the character to start with. It is highly possible that this is the magical power that character expresses when he Awakens. Keep in mind that many Awakenings occur as a result of stress—losing a loved one, being attacked, and so on. The character will not know how to cast this spell, conjure this spirit, or use that power until he has had proper training, of course—it is merely an accidental expression of the character’s Talent, controlled entirely by the gamemaster. The gamemaster can, in fact, treat the character as if he has the Cursed quality for a limited period (and without the bonus BP), until he gets his magic under control.
If the gamemaster allows it, the character may also acquire other Magic-required qualities when he Awakens, such as the Mentor Spirit quality. The gamemaster chooses which qualities (positive or negative) to apply. These qualities must also be paid for—simply add the BP cost of all qualities together before subtracting 5 and multiplying by 2 for the Karma cost, as noted above.
Once the character has Awakened, he may learn and improve the Magic attribute, magical skills, spells, and other magical abilities normally, as dictated by his type of Awakening.
SM p25
You can actually use the astral's emphasis on auras against it for an inflitration bonus in some situations: Release a large group of pests / animals (perhaps even metahumans? pull the fire alarm or something?) into the target area, give the astral security a bunch of false positives to go after as distractions.
Oh and if you are playing a infiltrator specialist, I highly suggest the move The Hunted as some entertainment to inspire one with fun ideas on infiltration in multiple environs - one of my favourites was learning it is possible to "disappear" in a crowd just by lowering your head height below the average head height of the crowd, I think that was in one of the extras on the dvd. The Bourne movie series and the tv show Burn Notice also had some fun observations of various infiltration methods as well - and surely you know about something like the game series Thief and Splinter Cell ... hmm, Deus Ex might be a good one too for ideas on infiltration in a cybered up world. Hope some of entertainment that helps this entertaining activity as you play a HideNGoSeek specialist character.
Oh, and here you go, another thread where we hashed back and forth on this subject before:
Sneaking vs. Magic - The plight of a ninja Shadowrunner
Oh and if you are playing a infiltrator specialist, I highly suggest the move The Hunted as some entertainment to inspire one with fun ideas on infiltration in multiple environs - one of my favourites was learning it is possible to "disappear" in a crowd just by lowering your head height below the average head height of the crowd, I think that was in one of the extras on the dvd. The Bourne movie series and the tv show Burn Notice also had some fun observations of various infiltration methods as well - and surely you know about something like the game series Thief and Splinter Cell ... hmm, Deus Ex might be a good one too for ideas on infiltration in a cybered up world. Hope some of entertainment that helps this entertaining activity as you play a HideNGoSeek specialist character.
Oh, and here you go, another thread where we hashed back and forth on this subject before:
Sneaking vs. Magic - The plight of a ninja Shadowrunner
Yeah, good thread. I loved that debate. Especially when I got all existential about the Aura bleedthrough on armor. I still say hold my position on that. 
QUOTE (Bladehate @ Jun 11 2010, 04:54 PM) 
All right.
Thanks for these tips, and I'm sorry if its been gone over before.
It still seems like Astral Perception is rather strong against especially mundane stealthers, since it negates things like ruthenium, thermal compensation, etc.
I'll bring up these points to my current GM though (I'm playing a stealther obviously =P), and see what he has to say.
Thanks for these tips, and I'm sorry if its been gone over before.
It still seems like Astral Perception is rather strong against especially mundane stealthers, since it negates things like ruthenium, thermal compensation, etc.
I'll bring up these points to my current GM though (I'm playing a stealther obviously =P), and see what he has to say.
Well on the other side you aren't really getting bonus dice with astral perception either. We have people rolling 16 dice in visual perception, our assensing is 8 dice.
Thanks for that link!
I did all kinds of searches on Infiltration, stealth and astral perception but that one didn't come up...I dunno how I missed it.
I did all kinds of searches on Infiltration, stealth and astral perception but that one didn't come up...I dunno how I missed it.
Search function here is hit or miss. Just using a synonym for a term might net you totally different results.
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jun 11 2010, 01:55 PM)
It's true that the tactics are different. In an open field with a ghillie sniper, astral sight will spot him as an Obvious target; in other terrain (indoors, rough urban, etc.), astral sight is no better than physical sight. You just have to keep track of the situation, because camo isn't the only thing Infiltration does.
Actually you're better off in a field, especially one with plant life, as you stand a chance of blending into the aura's of the plants. In a urban environment, you're hooped, as its possible you're the only living thing in your immediate vicinity.
Could be. I dunno what the aura of grass looks like. I meant 'open area with no cover', but yeah.
I meant 'open area with no cover', but yeah.
QUOTE (Apathy @ Jun 11 2010, 05:27 PM)
If you knew that the guards were *only* present astrally, then they could be defeated by simply hiding inside a cardboard box and scooting along.
Yes, Snake was RIGHT ALL ALONG!
Haha. I think it would still look like a moving cardboard box, just shadowy. 
heh, could be a drone 
and how would a spirit know?
and how would a spirit know?
How would it know that it's not a cardboard box drone? Oh jeez.
Oh jeez.
Tagz covered it nicely, but I will go over it again for more specifics anyways.
Astral Perception in no way nullifies the Perception test necessary to locate an infiltrating character; it essentially functions as a normal Perception vs. Infiltration opposed test.
The key differences are that it uses an Astral Perception test in place of Perception (Assensing + Intuition), it uses a typically different set of 'visual' modifiers found in Street Magic, and certain modifiers to Perception tests do not apply (such as a Chameleon Suit or Audio Enhancement).
Some things to keep in mind for perception tests of all kinds are a few commonly overlooked modifiers.
Also remember that a dice pool of 0 means the character "cannot succeed". In simple terms, Joe Average will never notice something that does not stand out unless actively looking around. In addition, some things are deemed "Immediately Obvious", and to not require a test to locate. I suggest the following rulings:
This is bullshit. Not only is Masking unnecessary, it does not in any way hide a character's aura - it disguises it to look like another type of aura.
Astral Perception in no way nullifies the Perception test necessary to locate an infiltrating character; it essentially functions as a normal Perception vs. Infiltration opposed test.
The key differences are that it uses an Astral Perception test in place of Perception (Assensing + Intuition), it uses a typically different set of 'visual' modifiers found in Street Magic, and certain modifiers to Perception tests do not apply (such as a Chameleon Suit or Audio Enhancement).
Some things to keep in mind for perception tests of all kinds are a few commonly overlooked modifiers.
- Perceiving Character Distracted: If the perceiving character is not taking the Observe in Detail action (typically a Standard action), they suffer a -2 dice pool modifier to the perception test.
- Stands Out In Some Way: If the object/event being perceived has strong contrast to the background (such as florescent neon lights in a dark ally), the perceiver gains a +2 dice pool modifier to the perception test.
- Perceiving Character Actively Searching: If the perceiving character is 'looking' for a specific object/event, they receive a +3 dice pool modifier on perception tests made to find that specific object/event (such perception tests should never return information on something other than the searched for object/event - instead a separate perception test should be made with a -2 Perceiving Character Distracted modifier).
Also remember that a dice pool of 0 means the character "cannot succeed". In simple terms, Joe Average will never notice something that does not stand out unless actively looking around. In addition, some things are deemed "Immediately Obvious", and to not require a test to locate. I suggest the following rulings:
- A perceiving character cannot notice anything they have a dice pool of 0 in regards to [exception: Immediately Obvious below]
- If a character is not infiltrating, or rolls 0 hits on an Infiltration test, they are automatically noticed by any character with a perception dice pool of 1 or greater in regards to them
- If a character glitches on an Infiltration test, any perceiving characers receive a +2 Stands Out modifier to Perception tests made to locate the infiltrating character.
- If a character critically glitches on an Infiltration test, they are considered "Immediately Obvious", and automatically noticed by all other characters in sensory range.
QUOTE (Banaticus @ Jun 11 2010, 04:16 PM)
Basically, the only thing is to express as a magician, mystic adept, or adept, initiate and pick up the Masking metamagic technique. It's basically the only way to actually hide from a dual natured person (from someone who's viewing the physical and astral planes at the same time). Latent Awakening is only 5 BP, so you could pick that quality up for only 10 karma.
This is bullshit. Not only is Masking unnecessary, it does not in any way hide a character's aura - it disguises it to look like another type of aura.
Err I am sorry but hiding behind physical unliving cover wont block LOS in astral.
All physical bareer are translucedent in astral sight, only living things (like Earth or plants) and enchanted/magical material can provide cover from view in the astral.
All physical bareer are translucedent in astral sight, only living things (like Earth or plants) and enchanted/magical material can provide cover from view in the astral.
No.
All things are opaque on astral, even glass.
All things are opaque on astral, even glass.
QUOTE (IKerensky @ Jun 13 2010, 06:19 AM)
Err I am sorry but hiding behind physical unliving cover wont block LOS in astral.
All physical bareer are translucedent in astral sight, only living things (like Earth or plants) and enchanted/magical material can provide cover from view in the astral.
All physical bareer are translucedent in astral sight, only living things (like Earth or plants) and enchanted/magical material can provide cover from view in the astral.
Street Magic Disagrees with you on that...
QUOTE
Page 114 of Street Magic, Last Paragraph of the Astral Visibility Section.
Determining cover works the same way on the astral plane as it does in the physical world (see pp. 140–141, SR4).
Shadows of physical objects in the astral plane may be drab and insubstantial, but they are still opaque and can prevent targeting. Items that are transparent or mirrored in the real world (like a car window) simply impair visibility as astral shadows.
Since there are no ranged weapons on the astral plane and spell targeting depends on seeing your target, hiding behind physical shadows works as well as hiding behind a vibrant aura.
Determining cover works the same way on the astral plane as it does in the physical world (see pp. 140–141, SR4).
Shadows of physical objects in the astral plane may be drab and insubstantial, but they are still opaque and can prevent targeting. Items that are transparent or mirrored in the real world (like a car window) simply impair visibility as astral shadows.
Since there are no ranged weapons on the astral plane and spell targeting depends on seeing your target, hiding behind physical shadows works as well as hiding behind a vibrant aura.
Keep the Faith
Has this not changed from SR3 to SR4? Astral vision used to see through walls in our SR3 game, but I don't know whether it is cannon or not.
QUOTE (Traul @ Jun 13 2010, 11:01 AM)
Has this not changed from SR3 to SR4? Astral vision used to see through walls in our SR3 game, but I don't know whether it is cannon or not.
Walls are Opaque on the Astral... Says so in the book...
Can't remember about 3rd Edition (My Books were all stolen), But I was always under the impression they were opaque even in that Edition; at least that was how we played it...
Keep the Faith
If you use the latest FAQ then mundanes can't use infiltrate on the astral.
Can you use Stealth Group Skills on the astral?
Yes, but it isn't easy. All living and magical things in astral space display vibrant auras which make most attempts at stealth useless. Astrally projecting Characters attempting to hide in astral space may use Infilitration + Logic, Palming + Logic, or Shadowing + Intuition as appropriate—the character makes an Opposed Test against the target's Assensing + Intuition; dual-natured characters may use Logic or Agility when attempting to using Stealth Group Skills against astral observers. Apply any appropriate Astral Visibility modifiers (p.114, Street Magic) to the target.
The Palming Skill has extremely limited use on the astral, but might be used to conceal a blood fetish, small weapon focus, or the like.
Can you use Stealth Group Skills on the astral?
Yes, but it isn't easy. All living and magical things in astral space display vibrant auras which make most attempts at stealth useless. Astrally projecting Characters attempting to hide in astral space may use Infilitration + Logic, Palming + Logic, or Shadowing + Intuition as appropriate—the character makes an Opposed Test against the target's Assensing + Intuition; dual-natured characters may use Logic or Agility when attempting to using Stealth Group Skills against astral observers. Apply any appropriate Astral Visibility modifiers (p.114, Street Magic) to the target.
The Palming Skill has extremely limited use on the astral, but might be used to conceal a blood fetish, small weapon focus, or the like.
QUOTE (Traul @ Jun 13 2010, 07:01 PM)
Has this not changed from SR3 to SR4? Astral vision used to see through walls in our SR3 game, but I don't know whether it is cannon or not.
Nope.. in 3rd you couldn't look through stuff either. I only know that there was a lot of discussion if you could watch trough glass on the astral. Some seid: no it is dense material, other said: yes, since it is manufactured to be "invisible" - but since robots and machine do the forming, even that might not count.
Ah well, now you can look through it, but maybe not that well. As long as i know 2nd and 3rd edition to 4th there was no change: No free lookie-lookie in astral through everything.
I still say all cover-based stealth is fine, and is a use of Infiltration.
QUOTE (sn0mm1s @ Jun 13 2010, 01:15 PM)
If you use the latest FAQ then mundanes can't use infiltrate on the astral.
QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Jun 13 2010, 01:44 AM)
When a Frequently Asked Questions document extends beyond its purview, its legitimacy is effectively nullified. The definitions for an FAQ and Erratum have already been given, and the FAQ very clearly fails in it's purpose in multiple instances. The author of the FAQ has even confirmed this distinct difference between the two.
As such, personal opinion on the matter is irrelevant. The current FAQ is not a viable source for rules debate, and should be (generally will be) thoroughly ignored.
QUOTE (Ancient History @ May 5 2010, 11:24 PM)
Errors in any work are inevitable. Whether typographic (read: somebody slipped on the keyboard and nobody caught it), mathematical (read: somebody screwed up the calculations or formula and nobody caught it), or logical (read: somebody wrote something that didn't make any damn sense, or contradicted something written somewhere else, and either nobody read it or nobody caught it) errors creep into every product. Errata is supposed to fix those errors, to examine the situation and add corrects or rewrite entirely depending on the significance of the error and its effects on gameplay. This is really what differentiates it from FAQ: a good FAQ should explain, elucidate, provide examples for, and sometimes elaborate on a rule, but it shouldn't create new rules or "fix" old ones. That's what errata is for.
As such, personal opinion on the matter is irrelevant. The current FAQ is not a viable source for rules debate, and should be (generally will be) thoroughly ignored.
Further, the FAQ is in this instance poorly written but specifically addressing Infiltrating on the astral plane (literally infiltration by astral beings), which is very clearly not possible unless you have access to the astral plane.
It does not address observing the normal use of infiltration from the astral plane.
QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Jun 13 2010, 05:04 PM)
As such, personal opinion on the matter is irrelevant. The current FAQ is not a viable source for rules debate, and should be (generally will be) thoroughly ignored.
Further, the FAQ is in this instance poorly written but specifically addressing Infiltrating on the astral plane (literally infiltration by astral beings), which is very clearly not possible unless you have access to the astral plane.
It does not address observing the normal use of infiltration from the astral plane.
Further, the FAQ is in this instance poorly written but specifically addressing Infiltrating on the astral plane (literally infiltration by astral beings), which is very clearly not possible unless you have access to the astral plane.
It does not address observing the normal use of infiltration from the astral plane.
First off, I am not arguing whether or not the FAQ is a valid document which is why I said IF you use the FAQ.
Secondly, a mundane does exist on the astral plane - always. According to the FAQ, to infiltrate on the astral plane you either must be projecting or perceiving. Why would stealth "be nearly useless" on the astral only when you can see the astral plane and see those looking for you on said plane? Why make a specific example for how a dual natured being uses stealth on the astral?
By RAW, infiltration works against astral as well as the material. By the FAQ that isn't the case. I don't care which one you choose to use.
I usually rule that the penalty for not being able to see the astral being who you are sneaking past is matched by the penalty the astral being has because they are no really paying that much attention to the physical word, and aura's don't really capture their attention anyways. Spirits on patrol are looking for astral threats, they don't know that this in paticular aura isn't an authorized one.
QUOTE (sn0mm1s @ Jun 13 2010, 10:33 PM)
First off, I am not arguing whether or not the FAQ is a valid document which is why I said IF you use the FAQ.
Secondly, a mundane does exist on the astral plane - always. According to the FAQ, to infiltrate on the astral plane you either must be projecting or perceiving. Why would stealth "be nearly useless" on the astral only when you can see the astral plane and see those looking for you on said plane? Why make a specific example for how a dual natured being uses stealth on the astral?
By RAW, infiltration works against astral as well as the material. By the FAQ that isn't the case. I don't care which one you choose to use.
Secondly, a mundane does exist on the astral plane - always. According to the FAQ, to infiltrate on the astral plane you either must be projecting or perceiving. Why would stealth "be nearly useless" on the astral only when you can see the astral plane and see those looking for you on said plane? Why make a specific example for how a dual natured being uses stealth on the astral?
By RAW, infiltration works against astral as well as the material. By the FAQ that isn't the case. I don't care which one you choose to use.
The FAQ gives two conditions explicitly, Astrally Projecting and Dual Natured. It makes absolutely no statement whatsoever about mundanes, who are neither dual natured nor astrally projecting. The use of Infiltration astrally by mundanes is not covered in the FAQ.
Edit: And the question is "Can Stealth group be used on the astral?" which provides a slightly different context, in that it the question is about an astrally active entity using the stealth group on the astral plane, which is different then the situation presented in the OP which is about astral perception versus mundane use of the stealth group in the physical plane.
QUOTE (sn0mm1s @ Jun 13 2010, 10:33 PM)
Secondly, a mundane does exist on the astral plane - always.
A mundane has an aura on the astral plane - comparable to a reflection or a shadow. They do not actually exist on the astral - only creatures possessing an astral form do so, such as a dual natured creature or a projecting magician.
And again, the FAQ was poorly written, but specifically addressing the use of Infiltration by a character that possesses an astral form and thus entirely irrelevant to this discussion.
QUOTE (Muspellsheimr @ Jun 13 2010, 11:34 PM)
A mundane has an aura on the astral plane - comparable to a reflection or a shadow. They do not actually exist on the astral - only creatures possessing an astral form do so, such as a dual natured creature or a projecting magician.
And again, the FAQ was poorly written, but specifically addressing the use of Infiltration by a character that possesses an astral form and thus entirely irrelevant to this discussion.
And again, the FAQ was poorly written, but specifically addressing the use of Infiltration by a character that possesses an astral form and thus entirely irrelevant to this discussion.
There is no functional difference between a mundane and a dual natured being using stealth. The being takes up the same location and its movements are limited what they can do on the material plane. The aura of the being exists on the astral and again that is functionally the same (in terms of stealth) as the being on the astral plane. Are you going to tell me that a perceiving being can't target a mundane in astral space with a gun? That the aura isn't on the astral plane? You are making no sense - *what* is the difference as far as stealth between an adept with Astral Perception vs. one without using stealth against other astral perceivers - none. What is the difference between a complete mundane using stealth vs. an adept w/o Astral Perception - none. So when is using stealth on the astral "useless". Why even say it is useless if, as you are arguing that the FAQ only applies to beings aware of the astral, the beings using stealth can use it absolutely fine. Hell, a mage astrally projecting probably is *better* at stealthing than they would be in their meat body.
"All living and magical things in astral space display vibrant auras which make most attempts at stealth useless." - this applies to everything. Meaning an living mundane displays a vibrant aura making his attempts at stealth useless. His *aura* is visible just fine on the astral.
"Astrally projecting Characters attempting to hide in astral space may use Infilitration + Logic, Palming + Logic, or Shadowing + Intuition as appropriate—the character makes an Opposed Test against the target's Assensing + Intuition; dual-natured characters may use Logic or Agility when attempting to using Stealth Group Skills against astral observers." - After stating that stealth is useless, the FAQ shows the cases where stealth can be used. This follows the whole general rule/exception mantra that so many people repeat on the board.
General Rule: Stealth is useless on the astral.
Exception: Projecting beings can use Infilitration + Logic, Palming + Logic, or Shadowing + Intuition
Exception: Dual-natured characters may use Logic or Agility.
QUOTE (sn0mm1s @ Jun 14 2010, 10:08 AM)
General Rule: Stealth is useless on the astral.
Are you basing this general rule on the FAQ question ""Can Stealth group be used on the astral?" or on some other source you can cite?
QUOTE (DireRadiant @ Jun 14 2010, 08:43 AM)
Are you basing this general rule on the FAQ question ""Can Stealth group be used on the astral?" or on some other source you can cite?
The FAQ, but as I said by RAW infiltration works everywhere on everything. By the FAQ you must be aware of the astral to use stealth against anything astral - otherwise the entire question and answer makes absolutely no sense.
Personally I would look at the question "Can X be used on the astral?" and think that it does not apply to a situation where someone on the physical plane is doing something that is an opposed test to astral perception.
For example; Can I Hack on the Astral?, Can I Drive on the Astral? These don't mean much since they require additional conditions in order to apply. Can I Fight on the Astral? Extensive rules exist for that. It's usually understood to be the astral combat rules, for which there are astral projections, astral entities, and dual natured participants acting on the astral plane. Does the meaning of "On the astral" change to astral perception of the mundane world simply because we are talking about Stealth Group?
Edit: Understanding the assumptions you apply to the meaning of the questions provide context for the answer. Which still only explicitly mentions Astral Projections and Dual Natured mechanics, and makes no reference whatsoever to mundanes. Are Mundane Astral Stealth mechanics left out because you do not generally get Mundanes On the Astral plane and thus it's not relevant to the question, or are the mechanics not included because Mundanes can't use stealth against astral perception, in which case why not just state that.
For example; Can I Hack on the Astral?, Can I Drive on the Astral? These don't mean much since they require additional conditions in order to apply. Can I Fight on the Astral? Extensive rules exist for that. It's usually understood to be the astral combat rules, for which there are astral projections, astral entities, and dual natured participants acting on the astral plane. Does the meaning of "On the astral" change to astral perception of the mundane world simply because we are talking about Stealth Group?
Edit: Understanding the assumptions you apply to the meaning of the questions provide context for the answer. Which still only explicitly mentions Astral Projections and Dual Natured mechanics, and makes no reference whatsoever to mundanes. Are Mundane Astral Stealth mechanics left out because you do not generally get Mundanes On the Astral plane and thus it's not relevant to the question, or are the mechanics not included because Mundanes can't use stealth against astral perception, in which case why not just state that.
QUOTE (DireRadiant @ Jun 14 2010, 09:05 AM)
Personally I would look at the question "Can X be used on the astral?" and think that it does not apply to a situation where someone on the physical plane is doing something that is an opposed test to astral perception.
For example; Can I Hack on the Astral?, Can I Drive on the Astral? These don't mean much since they require additional conditions in order to apply. Can I Fight on the Astral? Extensive rules exist for that. It's usually understood to be the astral combat rules, for which there are astral projections, astral entities, and dual natured participants acting on the astral plane. Does the meaning of "On the astral" change to astral perception of the mundane world simply because we are talking about Stealth Group?
Edit: Understanding the assumptions you apply to the meaning of the questions provide context for the answer. Which still only explicitly mentions Astral Projections and Dual Natured mechanics, and makes no reference whatsoever to mundanes. Are Mundane Astral Stealth mechanics left out because you do not generally get Mundanes On the Astral plane and thus it's not relevant to the question, or are the mechanics not included because Mundanes can't use stealth against astral perception, in which case why not just state that.
For example; Can I Hack on the Astral?, Can I Drive on the Astral? These don't mean much since they require additional conditions in order to apply. Can I Fight on the Astral? Extensive rules exist for that. It's usually understood to be the astral combat rules, for which there are astral projections, astral entities, and dual natured participants acting on the astral plane. Does the meaning of "On the astral" change to astral perception of the mundane world simply because we are talking about Stealth Group?
Edit: Understanding the assumptions you apply to the meaning of the questions provide context for the answer. Which still only explicitly mentions Astral Projections and Dual Natured mechanics, and makes no reference whatsoever to mundanes. Are Mundane Astral Stealth mechanics left out because you do not generally get Mundanes On the Astral plane and thus it's not relevant to the question, or are the mechanics not included because Mundanes can't use stealth against astral perception, in which case why not just state that.
Except it does make a reference to mundanes. In fact, it goes even further to say *all* living and magical things have auras that make stealth useless. Mundane metahumans are a subset of living things.
QUOTE (sn0mm1s @ Jun 14 2010, 10:16 AM)
Except it does make a reference to mundanes. In fact, it goes even further to say *all* living and magical things have auras that make stealth useless. Mundane metahumans are a subset of living things.
So let's go through this.
"Can you use Stealth Group Skills on the astral?" You take this can refer to someone using physical world stealth against an astral observer and not a question of can I do X on the astral.
"Yes, but it isn't easy. All living and magical things in astral space display vibrant auras which make most attempts at stealth useless." From this you infer that no mundanes can use stealth against astral observers. I see a general statement on how the astral is percieved.
" Astrally projecting Characters attempting to hide in astral space may use Infilitration + Logic, Palming + Logic, or Shadowing + Intuition as appropriate—the character makes an Opposed Test against the target's Assensing + Intuition; dual-natured characters may use Logic or Agility when attempting to using Stealth Group Skills against astral observers." Note the mechanics here only apply to Astral Projecting and Dual natured using Stealth on the astral. No mention of Mundanes at all. Also note the "Hide in astral space" in the first sentence, this is explicitly about a full astral form using a skill in the astral against astral observers. Then it goes on to a sentence about dual natured characters using stealth against astral observers. Nowhere is a Mundane against astral observers mentioned.
"Apply any appropriate Astral Visibility modifiers (p.114, Street Magic) to the target." Straightforward, when using astral perception, use astral perception modifiers. However, if you read on astral visibility in Street Magic, several times it is explicitly stated that physical world cover and modifiers can still apply. Does this mean a mundane character could get physical world modifiers and cover, but not the skill at all?
"The Palming Skill has extremely limited use on the astral, but might be used to conceal a blood fetish, small weapon focus, or the like." This is interesting since it only refers to palming items that in themselves have an astral form, so it seems to be a case of an astral form hiding/"palming" another astral form. No mention of concealing mundane items from astral perception.
QUOTE (sn0mm1s @ Jun 14 2010, 11:08 AM)
There is no functional difference between a mundane and a dual natured being using stealth. The being takes up the same location and its movements are limited what they can do on the material plane. The aura of the being exists on the astral and again that is functionally the same (in terms of stealth) as the being on the astral plane. Are you going to tell me that a perceiving being can't target a mundane in astral space with a gun? That the aura isn't on the astral plane? You are making no sense - *what* is the difference as far as stealth between an adept with Astral Perception vs. one without using stealth against other astral perceivers - none. What is the difference between a complete mundane using stealth vs. an adept w/o Astral Perception - none. So when is using stealth on the astral "useless". Why even say it is useless if, as you are arguing that the FAQ only applies to beings aware of the astral, the beings using stealth can use it absolutely fine. Hell, a mage astrally projecting probably is *better* at stealthing than they would be in their meat body.
Except the being that cannot and never has been able to use Astral Perception should be unable to hide from astral sight. Can you, right now, where ever you are sitting hide your true emotional state on the Astral? No, because you can't know what you are showing, what the environment around you shows. Its like a person who was born blind trying to hide. Or more extreme, a blind person raised by blind people, who has only ever heard stories of sighted people (less than 1% of the population) trying to hide. In fact the thought process that cause you to hide will alter your aura (changed emothional state) and may make you stand out more. Dual natured and Astrally perceiving folks should be able to use stealth to attempt to hide, since they can perceive the medium in which they are hiding.
I have never seen using the infrared, ultraviolet, or radar, but if I wanted to avoid cameras that might view using these things I believe I could learn how to do it, or at least learn the steps that would increase my odds of success. Just because I've never used astral perception doesn't mean I couldn't learn the strengths and weaknesses of it and act in ways that made me difficult to spot using those techniques.
QUOTE (DireRadiant @ Jun 14 2010, 09:36 AM)
So let's go through this.
"Can you use Stealth Group Skills on the astral?" You take this can refer to someone using physical world stealth against an astral observer and not a question of can I do X on the astral.
"Can you use Stealth Group Skills on the astral?" You take this can refer to someone using physical world stealth against an astral observer and not a question of can I do X on the astral.
Yes and no, obviously an astrally projecting being can't use physical stealth because they don't have those stats on the astral. However, for 99% of stealth test we are dealing with physical world stealth.
QUOTE (DireRadiant @ Jun 14 2010, 09:36 AM)
"Yes, but it isn't easy. All living and magical things in astral space display vibrant auras which make most attempts at stealth useless." From this you infer that no mundanes can use stealth against astral observers. I see a general statement on how the astral is percieved.
Then give me the example where the attempt is "useless".
Projecting - described in FAQ (As I mentioned in most cases this is probably more effective for the mage than using physical stats)
Dual Natured - same as regular old stealth with the option of substituting in Logic.
Mundane - now, if this works as a regular Agility + Infiltration test then stealth is *never* useless. Not even close. Stealth isn't particularly hard either with any character focused on infiltration.
QUOTE (DireRadiant @ Jun 14 2010, 09:36 AM)
" Astrally projecting Characters attempting to hide in astral space may use Infilitration + Logic, Palming + Logic, or Shadowing + Intuition as appropriate—the character makes an Opposed Test against the target's Assensing + Intuition; dual-natured characters may use Logic or Agility when attempting to using Stealth Group Skills against astral observers." Note the mechanics here only apply to Astral Projecting and Dual natured using Stealth on the astral. No mention of Mundanes at all. Also note the "Hide in astral space" in the first sentence, this is explicitly about a full astral form using a skill in the astral against astral observers. Then it goes on to a sentence about dual natured characters using stealth against astral observers. Nowhere is a Mundane against astral observers mentioned.
So? A mundane's aura exists on the astral plane. How would you describe a mundane trying to hide vs. an astral observer... are they not trying to hide their aura in astral space? They definitely aren't trying to hide their aura in the physical world. There is no difference from the viewpoint of an astral observer between a dual natured being or a mundane trying to hide. You guys are like Bill Clinton trying to argue the definition of "is". What is your definition of "in" and "on" and describe to me a mundane hiding their aura from an astral observer without using "in" or "on" or some sort of synonym.
QUOTE (DireRadiant @ Jun 14 2010, 09:36 AM)
"Apply any appropriate Astral Visibility modifiers (p.114, Street Magic) to the target." Straightforward, when using astral perception, use astral perception modifiers. However, if you read on astral visibility in Street Magic, several times it is explicitly stated that physical world cover and modifiers can still apply. Does this mean a mundane character could get physical world modifiers and cover, but not the skill at all?
Yup, just like a surprised runner behind cover getting shot at. The runner will get the cover bonus - but won't get to roll reaction or dodge because they are unaware of the person taking a shot at them - just like they are unaware of an astral observer.
QUOTE (DireRadiant @ Jun 14 2010, 09:36 AM)
"The Palming Skill has extremely limited use on the astral, but might be used to conceal a blood fetish, small weapon focus, or the like." This is interesting since it only refers to palming items that in themselves have an astral form, so it seems to be a case of an astral form hiding/"palming" another astral form. No mention of concealing mundane items from astral perception.
This is because mundane items are opaque and dead and palming would be just the same (or maybe even easier) - they aren't glowing saying "Look at me."
It's not about hiding your emotions, it's about hiding behind people and objects. That's the same skill regardless.
QUOTE (IKerensky @ Jun 13 2010, 07:19 AM)
Err I am sorry but hiding behind physical unliving cover wont block LOS in astral.
All physical bareer are translucedent in astral sight, only living things (like Earth or plants) and enchanted/magical material can provide cover from view in the astral.
All physical bareer are translucedent in astral sight, only living things (like Earth or plants) and enchanted/magical material can provide cover from view in the astral.
QUOTE (Rotbart van Dainig @ Jun 13 2010, 07:58 AM)
No.
All things are opaque on astral, even glass.
All things are opaque on astral, even glass.
I am with Rotbart on this. A brick wall may not glow on the astral, and make a living being easy to spot when it is the backdrop, but astral entities cannot see through solid physical objects... regardless of whither light can pass through the object.
Also, ultimate astral sneaky... the conceal power. Anyone with good essence can have conceal by ingesting some magical drugs. Or hire your friendly neighborhood mage to summon a spirit for you to cast conceal. I would charge a player 100$ per force per service for something like that.
With a force 6 conceal, they have 6 less dice to see you with. Combine that with a high threshold created by your Infiltration check, and your unspottable, even by spirits on the astral!
Hm. So a pixie inside an Otomo drone would be effectively undetectable on the astral as a living creature.
-karma
-karma
Yup, and unable to use its own Astral Sight ability. Of course, isn't pixie-inside-any-drone a house-rule situation to begin with?
Nah, it's not armor, it's a drone, humanoid-shaped vehicle.
Nah, it's not armor, it's a drone, humanoid-shaped vehicle.
QUOTE (KarmaInferno @ Jun 14 2010, 12:51 PM)
Hm. So a pixie inside an Otomo drone would be effectively undetectable on the astral as a living creature.
-karma
-karma
Depends, I think that there is a source somewhere that states full body armor doesn't hide an aura in the astral not sure about the drone.
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