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Catadmin
QUOTE (KarmaInferno @ Jun 16 2010, 10:49 PM) *
Back to the subject, does anyone else have a problem with Caution Tape Girl's WIERD posture? Or is it just cos I'm an artist?


Yes. and Yes. @=)
Catadmin
QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist @ Jun 16 2010, 10:51 PM) *
There is something off with her posture and her face to me. I don't know what, but I get some sort of primal this is wrong feeling when I look at her. But I am not an artist so I have no idea what it could be or how to express it if I did.


The proportions are off on this character. I suppose we can check it off as her having augmentation to keep her breasts way out to the side instead of in front like a normal woman would have, but the whole chest / arm thing is much bigger than a normal body with that size head. Your mind is telling you something's wrong because it notices that sort of thing even if you can't identify it.
otakusensei
QUOTE (Catadmin @ Jun 17 2010, 06:21 AM) *
The proportions are off on this character. I suppose we can check it off as her having augmentation to keep her breasts way out to the side instead of in front like a normal woman would have, but the whole chest / arm thing is much bigger than a normal body with that size head. Your mind is telling you something's wrong because it notices that sort of thing even if you can't identify it.

My wife is an artist, and she can't stop talking about this. I showed her the pic two days ago because it looked like Angelina Jolie got spliced with Steven Tyler and someone armed it. We both agree that the background looks much better and more interesting, caution tape girl looks pasted on. But my wife can't stop bringing up the picture and tying to rearrange tape girl into someone more human. Now I feel bad for showing her the pic.
Samoth
Seriously, how hard is it to find someone who can draw covers for 3-4 books a year that don't look completely awful?
Dread Moores
I'd imagine the size of the art budget has a big impact on determining art used.
otakusensei
QUOTE (Samoth @ Jun 17 2010, 09:50 AM) *
Seriously, how hard is it to find someone who can draw covers for 3-4 books a year that don't look completely awful?

The problem is that the artist is obviously very talented. But whoever told her what to draw needs to be put on other projects.
augmentin
QUOTE (The Dragon Girl @ Jun 16 2010, 12:41 PM) *
>.> I'm a girl and I approve of boobies \o/


Oh don't get me wrong. I'm a big fan of boobies. I just have a preference for real ones (my wife's) over you know, like cartoons 'n stuff.
BlueMax
QUOTE (Catadmin @ Jun 17 2010, 03:21 AM) *
The proportions are off on this character. I suppose we can check it off as her having augmentation to keep her breasts way out to the side instead of in front like a normal woman would have, but the whole chest / arm thing is much bigger than a normal body with that size head. Your mind is telling you something's wrong because it notices that sort of thing even if you can't identify it.


Great, I've been avoiding staring at the boobies because I felt I would do that enough when I owned the book. Now its one of those "real or fake" site games.

Couldn't she also be some form of Surge®?

Must wait till I get home to stare at and measure boobies.

BlueMax
/for you guys who remember Drew Curtis
//Clintoned in the boobies.
The Monk
QUOTE (otakusensei @ Jun 17 2010, 09:59 AM) *
The problem is that the artist is obviously very talented. But whoever told her what to draw needs to be put on other projects.

Probably told that the words "Attitude" was going to be floating above her, and that she had to be giving a serious myspace duckface.
Congzilla
I think picture #9 at the below link shows the artist used fairly correct artificially enhanced mammary spacing. It's a cocked up chin attitude pose, looks correct to me, and actually some of the better SR art Ive seen in a while.


Link removed for linking to pictures containing nudity. NSFW
otakusensei
QUOTE (The Monk @ Jun 17 2010, 01:39 PM) *
Probably told that the words "Attitude" was going to be floating above her, and that she had to be giving a serious myspace duckface.

I can honestly see that happening. I'm just disappointed that the person who made that art note wasn't instead deciding if the floor should smell like pine or oranges.
BlueMax
Tough Crowd.
Doc Chase
QUOTE (otakusensei @ Jun 17 2010, 07:29 PM) *
I can honestly see that happening. I'm just disappointed that the person who made that art note wasn't instead deciding if the floor should smell like pine or oranges.


Speaking from experience with such, the people in question oftimes make both of those decisions.
Brazilian_Shinobi
Everyone is a critic. rotate.gif
Doc Chase
What? I like the orange scent.
Samoth
QUOTE (Dread Moores @ Jun 17 2010, 02:58 PM) *
I'd imagine the size of the art budget has a big impact on determining art used.


Well they must have paid this artist something, so at least we've proven there IS a budget.

I'd rather they just recycle old covers. Not many people have see the Lone Star cover, may as well use it for something else, etc.
Endroren
QUOTE (Samoth @ Jun 17 2010, 03:22 PM) *
I'd rather they just recycle old covers. Not many people have see the Lone Star cover, may as well use it for something else, etc.


I hate it when companies do that. As a guy who WILL remember the old cover, it undermines my confidence in the game, suggesting a lack of income or a lazy development plan. These impressions might be wrong, but that is the perception and knee jerk reaction. Better to pay an artist to make a so-so cover than recycle something your core fan base will immediately recognize as recycled.

Now using a classic cover for a remake of the same book could work, but definitely not for a different title.
Samoth
QUOTE (Endroren @ Jun 17 2010, 07:44 PM) *
I hate it when companies do that. As a guy who WILL remember the old cover, it undermines my confidence in the game, suggesting a lack of income or a lazy development plan. These impressions might be wrong, but that is the perception and knee jerk reaction. Better to pay an artist to make a so-so cover than recycle something your core fan base will immediately recognize as recycled.

Now using a classic cover for a remake of the same book could work, but definitely not for a different title.



Well, they weren't against reusing the SR1 cover for SR2...but they also made different covers for both of 3rd Ed's Runners Companions so who knows. Of course, that was FASA, who had just as many terrible covers as Catalyst and Fanpro have had (For every cool Prime Runners there were two Shadowbeats)
Method
Maybe you haven't noticed but a significant portion of the art in some recent books is recycled.
Martin_DeVries_Institute
QUOTE (Method @ Jun 17 2010, 12:13 PM) *
Maybe you haven't noticed but a significant portion of the art in some recent books is recycled.

Yeah, I had noticed some interior art was real familiar. I've seen it on covers before, or from the TCG. Honestly, I don't really mind that sort of thing, personally... I mean how many people saw the trading cards anyway? May as well use some of that art... But if they were to start re-using covers as new covers, that would definitely give me pause. I would not want to pick up a brand new SR book that was re-using a cover, even one from 1st or 2nd edition.
Let's all send in donations to pump up the art budget, (/facetious) and CGL can hire Tim Bradstreet for their covers. I'll buy those in a second.
Endroren
QUOTE (Method @ Jun 17 2010, 04:13 PM) *
Maybe you haven't noticed but a significant portion of the art in some recent books is recycled.


Yes, I noticed - and I'm still not a fan of it, but somehow I can handle that a bit more than covers. I could go into the psychology of why that might work where a cover doesn't, but I'll leave it at "To me, Cover Recycling = Bad, Interior Art Recycling = don't like, but I can live with it".

And regarding covers, again, I think you can get away with it sometimes if it's just a re-release of the same book - like using Lone Star's cover for "Lone Star 2072". But using the Lone Star cover for some new book on weapons or something? I wouldn't go for that.
Method
As an aside, would anyone (particularly ZenShooter01) object if I edited the thread title to something like "Recent Update" instead of "Today's Update"? We are 2 days out now, after all...
Stahlseele
Nah, do it . .
hobgoblin
QUOTE (Samoth @ Jun 17 2010, 10:11 PM) *
Well, they weren't against reusing the SR1 cover for SR2...but they also made different covers for both of 3rd Ed's Runners Companions so who knows. Of course, that was FASA, who had just as many terrible covers as Catalyst and Fanpro have had (For every cool Prime Runners there were two Shadowbeats)

two runner companions for SR3?
Ryu
QUOTE (Method @ Jun 17 2010, 10:54 PM) *
As an aside, would anyone (particularly ZenShooter01) object if I edited the thread title to something like "Recent Update" instead of "Today's Update"? We are 2 days out now, after all...

Please do. Shame is on me already (fool me once, shame on you...), no need to go on.
tete
Is art really that expensive? I mean there is a fair number of non paid artists who have done decent work at deviant art. I would approach it as heh we are paying $500 for the best cover someone can send us for book X, submit your art to Y and if we use your piece we will send you the money. We may also pay you $50 if we want to use it somewhere other than the cover. I have a feeling it goes more like we need a girl with a gun in a small space and a guy at a desk... I'd rather let the artists imagination run wild and pick the best one. Maybe that doesn't work though, I know nothing about book art after all.
Kid Chameleon
QUOTE (hermit @ Jun 16 2010, 11:03 AM) *
And sorry, I fail to see very much media relevance here. There isn't even a cameraman or director prsent, or some sort of recording equipment.


Why would there be? Simsense doesn't require much of that, just a computer when its all done.
Kid Chameleon
QUOTE (tete @ Jun 17 2010, 03:36 PM) *
Is art really that expensive?


Relative to the budget for the book, yes. Art chews up a huge chunk. And it takes longer than writing, in most cases.
Method
And what about the rotodrone?
Adam
QUOTE (tete @ Jun 17 2010, 05:36 PM) *
Is art really that expensive? I mean there is a fair number of non paid artists who have done decent work at deviant art. I would approach it as heh we are paying $500 for the best cover someone can send us for book X, submit your art to Y and if we use your piece we will send you the money. We may also pay you $50 if we want to use it somewhere other than the cover. I have a feeling it goes more like we need a girl with a gun in a small space and a guy at a desk... I'd rather let the artists imagination run wild and pick the best one. Maybe that doesn't work though, I know nothing about book art after all.


What you're doing here is suggesting that artists engage in "Speculative Work" -- creating works that may or may not be purchased by a client, and that may not be suitable for other clients based on their content/style/etc. There are several organizations of artists against spec work.

I would advise that creatives not do this, be it for art, design, writing, etc., unless they FULLY understand what they're getting into, what rights they're giving up (I would never agree to sell my work to someone before I saw exactly what rights they got!), how and when they're being compensated, etc.
Method
Topic title edited for temporal accuracy.
tete
QUOTE (Adam @ Jun 17 2010, 11:11 PM) *
I would advise that creatives not do this, be it for art, design, writing, etc., unless they FULLY understand what they're getting into, what rights they're giving up (I would never agree to sell my work to someone before I saw exactly what rights they got!), how and when they're being compensated, etc.


Like I said I know NOTHING about it, I have only see the part where a client inserts themselves way to far into the artists work and ruins what was a great advert. Or artists who refuse to compromise their art for the client (thus making the actual product impossible to engineer properly). I don't work in any type of publishing other than tech docs that only other techs will see and dont usually have any art.

[edit] based on the advert part you can choose as a client to see proposals and not purchase the actual advert if it doesnt float your boat. I would assume (and perhaps incorrectly) you could do this for rpg art so you know what your getting before you pay for it.
Adam
If the client inserts themselves "too far" into the artists work and ruins it ... well, typically that's the client's right, as they're paying for the work and often acquiring all rights to it.

I used to work for a company where the boss hated hyphenation. Nothing was allowed to be hyphenated, even though he also liked justified text, and as everyone knows, justified text without hyphenation can occasionally look very poor, depending on the particular text, size of the text measure, etc. Every book I produced for him lacked hyphenation; he was paying for it, he got what he wanted.

Clients can pay artists to do things that are not in the client's best interest; there are times when an artist may want to extract themselves from that situation, and times when they wouldn't want to.

But that has absolutely nothing to do with spec work, and my warning about avoiding it stands.
Stahlseele
QUOTE
If the client inserts themselves "too far" into

*translation* if he fucks it up . .
Tzeentch
QUOTE (Adam @ Jun 17 2010, 10:26 PM) *
If the client inserts themselves "too far" into the artists

-- Hell of a business. Hell. of. a. business.
Adam
Thank you, thank you.
Platinum
QUOTE (Adam @ Jun 17 2010, 06:11 PM) *
What you're doing here is suggesting that artists engage in "Speculative Work" -- creating works that may or may not be purchased by a client, and that may not be suitable for other clients based on their content/style/etc. There are several organizations of artists against spec work.

I would advise that creatives not do this, be it for art, design, writing, etc., unless they FULLY understand what they're getting into, what rights they're giving up (I would never agree to sell my work to someone before I saw exactly what rights they got!), how and when they're being compensated, etc.


Speculative Work is a great way to start building a portfolio.
It works really well for students that have art assignments at school, and can sell the work and show it in print.

It is also possible for art directors to ask people for submissions that they have completed and not sold. Buy the rights for print and save. Everyone wins.
Adam
There are times when spec work can work out for both sides, of course. But let's put it this way -- Runner's Companion is widely accepted as one of the best SR4-era covers, yes? You aren't going to get John Zeleznik sending you work on-spec.

Students, and people who are otherwise employed and producing art as a hobby can have positive results from spec situations, but it's a lot harder if you're making your living fulltime in a creative field: I couldn't work for a week producing a book on the chance that I _might_ get paid for it. Nobody would go do an office job for a week on the promise that they'll get paid "if the company likes their work more than the other two people doing the same thing."

And one of the big dangers of spec work is this: A company asks for work on spec. They see a dozen different samples from people, but elect not to buy any of them, and then they hire an artist or have a staff artist/designer work up a version that is very similar, for less money than they originally promised. In essence, they use spec work to mine _ideas_ as opposed to coming up with solid art briefs of their own.

There's some good stuff on no-spec.com to read, including this piece: http://www.no-spec.com/articles/why-speculation-hurts/
RunnerPaul
QUOTE (Adam @ Jun 17 2010, 09:54 PM) *
You aren't going to get John Zeleznik sending you work on-spec.


True, but you just might find the next Alex Ross, just like Shadowrun found the last one, while he's still in art school. (Mind you, I have no idea if Ross's work on the original core rulebook was spec work, or work-for-hire, only that he was attening the American Acadamy of Art in Chicago during the time period that his Shadowrun pieces would have been made.)

In general though, I agree. Spec work sucks for professionals. Just wanted to point out that you shouldn't discount those who aren't yet depending on a steady paycheck from their work.
Cain
Sorry to change the topic slightly, but since it's now about the "Recent update"...

The most recent update links to a list of Origins events that lists, by my count: 142 BT events, 34 Leviathan events, and 29 Shadowrun events. Of those, 9 are Manhattan Missions, meaning there'll only be 20 new Shadowrun events at Origins. If they're really interested in promoting Shadowrun, why the huge disparity?
KCKitsune
QUOTE (Adam @ Jun 17 2010, 09:54 PM) *
And one of the big dangers of spec work is this: A company asks for work on spec. They see a dozen different samples from people, but elect not to buy any of them, and then they hire an artist or have a staff artist/designer work up a version that is very similar, for less money than they originally promised. In essence, they use spec work to mine _ideas_ as opposed to coming up with solid art briefs of their own.

Can't they do that now? I mean just go to deviantart.com and look around. Or heck, do a Google search.

You're bound to find art that is close to what you're looking for.
JM Hardy
QUOTE (Cain @ Jun 17 2010, 10:11 PM) *
Sorry to change the topic slightly, but since it's now about the "Recent update"...

The most recent update links to a list of Origins events that lists, by my count: 142 BT events, 34 Leviathan events, and 29 Shadowrun events. Of those, 9 are Manhattan Missions, meaning there'll only be 20 new Shadowrun events at Origins. If they're really interested in promoting Shadowrun, why the huge disparity?


A few quick notes: Of the nine Manhattan Missions, 7 are Missions that have not been released yet. I'm not sure why they don't count as "new." Second, note that the Battletech Grinder counts as about 40 different events, but in reality one long event where players can go in and out. Another 20-some Battletech events are demos being played while people wait for the pods--sadly, Shadowrun does not have equivalent pods. Thirdly, many of the Leviathans and Battletech events are demos (actually, all of the Leviathans games are demos, which is kind of the nature of the beast since the full game has not been released); none of the Shadowrun events are. We're developing a con strategy to give quick demos to people.

Jason H.

Adam
QUOTE (KCKitsune @ Jun 17 2010, 11:27 PM) *
Can't they do that now? I mean just go to deviantart.com and look around. Or heck, do a Google search.

You're bound to find art that is close to what you're looking for.

It's similar. The differences, to my eyes, are:

a) It's time-consuming to do such a thing. Scouting for new artists or for pieces of work to re-use _is_ time consuming -- that's why spec work is a shortcut!
b) You're looking at stuff that the artist has already intended to distribute (to a certain degree) for free, as opposed to telling artists that you're planning on paying for the work. They've already finished all the work; it's not taking an instant of their time or energy to merely look at the existing work.

also: If you hire another artist to re-draw a piece of existing original art that you didn't own the rights for, it would still be legally dodgy.
The Dragon Girl
QUOTE (tete @ Jun 17 2010, 04:36 PM) *
Is art really that expensive? I mean there is a fair number of non paid artists who have done decent work at deviant art. I would approach it as heh we are paying $500 for the best cover someone can send us for book X, submit your art to Y and if we use your piece we will send you the money. We may also pay you $50 if we want to use it somewhere other than the cover. I have a feeling it goes more like we need a girl with a gun in a small space and a guy at a desk... I'd rather let the artists imagination run wild and pick the best one. Maybe that doesn't work though, I know nothing about book art after all.


..Okay I really didn't think this needed to be said before I saw this. Now I do:
Art is work. Real work. When you put several days to months worth of work into something you are entitled to fair compensation. Artists who work on commission do whatever it is the client wants them to do, but they -do- get paid for it. The only people who fall for this are very young artists who don't know how much advantage is being taken of them.

QUOTE (tete @ Jun 17 2010, 05:15 PM) *
Like I said I know NOTHING about it, I have only see the part where a client inserts themselves way to far into the artists work and ruins what was a great advert. Or artists who refuse to compromise their art for the client (thus making the actual product impossible to engineer properly). I don't work in any type of publishing other than tech docs that only other techs will see and don't usually have any art.

[edit] based on the advert part you can choose as a client to see proposals and not purchase the actual advert if it doesn't float your boat. I would assume (and perhaps incorrectly) you could do this for rpg art so you know what your getting before you pay for it.

Artists who 'refuse to compromise their art for the client' don't get work. Period. Pretentiousness like this does not pay the bills. What usually happens is the artist will make several thumbnails of different layouts, the client chooses one, or suggests stuff to have other ones made till there's a thumbnail they like.. then there are several back n forths of full sketches to get them approved at every stage, and then the colour work goes on, one last check before its finalized and all changes become impermeable, and then its a done deal.

QUOTE (Platinum @ Jun 17 2010, 08:40 PM) *
Speculative Work is a great way to start building a portfolio.
It works really well for students that have art assignments at school, and can sell the work and show it in print.

It is also possible for art directors to ask people for submissions that they have completed and not sold. Buy the rights for print and save. Everyone wins.



No. Its not. People bilk young artists into doing this. You make your portfolio to make your portfolio, and you can add commissioned pieces to it, or sell some of the portfolio work, but you never let someone talk you into doing many hours of labor for no pay. :/
Cain
QUOTE (JM Hardy @ Jun 17 2010, 08:40 PM) *
A few quick notes: Of the nine Manhattan Missions, 7 are Missions that have not been released yet. I'm not sure why they don't count as "new." Second, note that the Battletech Grinder counts as about 40 different events, but in reality one long event where players can go in and out. Another 20-some Battletech events are demos being played while people wait for the pods--sadly, Shadowrun does not have equivalent pods. Thirdly, many of the Leviathans and Battletech events are demos (actually, all of the Leviathans games are demos, which is kind of the nature of the beast since the full game has not been released); none of the Shadowrun events are. We're developing a con strategy to give quick demos to people.

Jason H.

Sorry, but that still doesn't yet explain the seven-to-one disparity between BT and SR, or the 1.5 to 1 disparity between Leviathans and Shadowrun. Could you explain, in a manner that Shadowrun fans can understand, why their favorite game isn't being promoted equally?
Yerameyahu
I'd just as soon skip the art. smile.gif
JM Hardy
QUOTE (Cain @ Jun 17 2010, 10:44 PM) *
Sorry, but that still doesn't yet explain the seven-to-one disparity between BT and SR, or the 1.5 to 1 disparity between Leviathans and Shadowrun. Could you explain, in a manner that Shadowrun fans can understand, why their favorite game isn't being promoted equally?


Just did. Because Shadowrun demos aren't counted, and the other demos are.

Jason H.
Adam
It does a great job of explaining it, Cain. You might not like the answer, but it's a clear and factual (as well as I know the facts, based on previous years of convention events) one. BattleTech runs more events because the events are shorter, some long events are counted as multiple events within the framework of how conventions designate an event, and BattleTech events can have one person overseeing multiple games, which is not possible with Shadowrun.
Hagga
QUOTE (Tanegar @ Jun 15 2010, 07:20 PM) *
Attitude sounds incredibly useful. I've never had a problem coming up with a role for my characters on the run; where I get into trouble is trying to imagine their day-to-day lives. Noir gets up in the morning after a successful job; the next run is a couple of weeks off, maybe as much as a month. What does he do in the meantime? Obviously he trains to keep himself sharp, but he's no obsessive-compulsive Batman. Where do runners go to blow off steam?

I like to imagine they run screaming through the streets, naked and carrying an assault cannon. Basically, like any regular run but they aren't getting paid for it and corp sec isn't chasing them from the get-go - takes a bit of time before the Knights catch on.
Larsine
QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Jun 17 2010, 11:25 PM) *
two runner companions for SR3?

Nope there was two Shadowrun Companions, one for 2nd edition, and a revised edition for 3rd edition:

For 2nd edition: 7905, Shadowrun Companion: Beyond the Shadows
For 3rd edition: 7905 (Fasa), 10656 & 25010 (FanPro), Shadowrun Companion: Revised for 3rd Edition

The first one had the Troll Mercenary by Tom Baxa as cover, previously it was used as interior art in SR2.
The second one had Running Short by John Zeleznik as cover, previously only used a a dummy cover fro Running Short which was never published.

Lars
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