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iategod
imagine a troll adept with 9 body

Mystic armor lvl 6 [6/6]
+
Orthoskin rank 3 [3/3]
+
riot control armor+helmet [6/9][1/2]
+
Form fitting body armor full body suit [6/2]
+
PPP system forearm, vitals, shin, and leg/arm [1/5]


My math has to be off cause this tells me the total armor is 22/27 with no encumbrance.
Yerameyahu
That's not even the record troll tank, yet. Go crazier. smile.gif

Besides, I think that's 23/27 that you've got there.
Jaid
yeah, where's the armored cyberlimbs?
Mr. Mage
Oh man...this reminds me of my Mutants and Mastermind character.... he can't actually be hurt damage wise unless someone who is 10 levels higher than him attacks him....

I'm going ot have to remember this setup you have for future reference....BWAHAHA!!!
iategod
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jun 17 2010, 11:41 PM) *
That's not even the record troll tank, yet. Go crazier. smile.gif

Besides, I think that's 23/27 that you've got there.


it can get worse (better)?

I mean sure, if there's no limit to rarity, i can see a troll tank with military grade armor and upgrades, but.... short of a missile i don't think this one can get hurt much.
Yerameyahu
Don't forget your anti-shock mod, or you'll still be 15S(e) against 22 dice to resist for each FA burst. That's 8 boxes of stun (plus net hits).

Actually, there was yet another thread about 'hurting a troll tank' last week, so you'll want to check that out.
iategod
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jun 17 2010, 11:46 PM) *
Don't forget your anti-shock mod, or you'll still be 15S(e) against 22 dice to resist for each FA burst.



ah yes, non conductivity armor mods, then a quality or two. Might still be under 400bp to make.
Nexushound
Oi Chums,

The Meat Shield in my game has Titanium Bone Lacing, Dermal Plating III, Full Form Fit, Armor Jacket and a load of the PPP securetech gear. He can take Heavy Pistol rounds at point blank but if I play my baddies right and utilize the loss of Defensive dice I can take him out without having to use Subtactical Nukes.Though most of the time he is just unconcious as the damage rarely does physical. And honestly Autofire is the way to go. Even with all that armor he knows when to take cover.
iategod
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jun 17 2010, 10:46 PM) *
Don't forget your anti-shock mod, or you'll still be 15S(e) against 22 dice to resist for each FA burst. That's 8 boxes of stun (plus net hits).

Actually, there was yet another thread about 'hurting a troll tank' last week, so you'll want to check that out.



I can't find the post, still looking

What's the p->stun conversion rule again?

Ya think platelet factories would work to combat stun damage? Or would just plain adding body be the best way to combat stun damage?
I mean with what i got up there, and bone density 4 (adds +4 to body for damage resist rolls) you'd be rolling 13 (body + bone density 4)+27 (impact armor) for stun resist damage rolls, right?
Deadmannumberone
QUOTE (iategod @ Jun 17 2010, 03:37 PM) *
imagine a troll adept with 9 body

Mystic armor lvl 6 [6/6]
+
Orthoskin rank 3 [3/3]
+
riot control armor+helmet [6/9][1/2]
+
Form fitting body armor full body suit [6/2]
+
PPP system forearm, vitals, shin, and leg/arm [1/5]


My math has to be off cause this tells me the total armor is 22/27 with no encumbrance.


You're not getting an adept with mystic armor 6 and orthoskin/dermal plating or sheathing/bone lacing without initiation.
Belvidere
I've got a troll in the game I run that if he chose to abuse it could be nearly unstoppable.
Customized Cyber Chest, 15 body
Custom Cyber Arms, 15 body each
Custom Cyber Legs, 15 Body each.
His natural Body of 10

All body added up gets 85 then divided down by 5 Gets you a 17 body.

Each Cyber Limb has full 4 armor. So 20 Armor there.
Plus Heavy Military grade Armor 16/14
Helmet +2/+2
Orthoskin maxed out. +3/+3
PPP Tech System(w/o helm). +2/+4

So in the end its...
Body: 17/17
Cyberlimb Armor: 20/20
Heavy Military Armor(With Helm): 18/16
Orthoskin: +3/+3
PPP Tech: +2/+4
Troll Natural:+1/+1
Toughness3: +3/+3
Bone density 4: +4/+4
So... 68/68

I may have done some division wrong here with the cyberlimbs. Cybergear's never been my forte. And this was all just out of core and arsenal. If I squeezed somewhere else I could probably get more. Oh and this is taking into account that the character has all qualities to reduce essence costs and they're all deltaware.
Yerameyahu
@iategod, don't forget it's -half Impact armor. Figuring 1 hit per 3 resist dice, you need 45 dice (inc. nonconductivity). But, again, there are a number of other things besides S&S that we talked about in the other thread. Toxins, screechers, etc.
Tyro
QUOTE (Belvidere @ Jun 17 2010, 05:42 PM) *
I've got a troll in the game I run that if he chose to abuse it could be nearly unstoppable.
Customized Cyber Chest, 15 body
Custom Cyber Arms, 15 body each
Custom Cyber Legs, 15 Body each.
His natural Body of 10

All body added up gets 85 then divided down by 5 Gets you a 17 body.

<snip>

I may have done some division wrong here with the cyberlimbs. Cybergear's never been my forte. And this was all just out of core and arsenal. If I squeezed somewhere else I could probably get more. Oh and this is taking into account that the character has all qualities to reduce essence costs and they're all deltaware.

Cyberlimbs replace attributes. You wouldn't use your natural body at all - you'd end up with 15, not 17.
Cardul
QUOTE (iategod @ Jun 17 2010, 07:09 PM) *
What's the p->stun conversion rule again?



If the damage value does not exceed his armour, any damage he takes is converted to Stun.I think Trauma Damper is what is used
to make the stunn less of an issue...however, unless he has enviro sealing, I would just use Neurostun gas, and if he does have
enviro sealing, that is what the HTRT's Mage with Stun bolt is for wink.gif
Summerstorm
QUOTE (Belvidere @ Jun 18 2010, 02:42 AM) *
Some stuff...

Ugh... Well, yes there can be some high dicepools. But what you have build there goes not only against common sense, it goes against rules as well.

First: How do you get an average body of 17 when no value is higher than 15? Easy answer: You don't.

Second: Orthoskin and Bone density: Do no work on/in cyberlimbs. (It is stated that nothing with essence costs can be used with cyberlimbs. That is what the cyberarmor is for.) Of course one could allow fraction of it to work in the torso/skull.

Rest seems good. All we need now is to have the Pain Editor so he will stay on target forever, and it is the terminator. Maybe some healing nanites to fix some things on the go *g*
Belvidere
QUOTE (Summerstorm @ Jun 17 2010, 07:00 PM) *
Ugh... Well, yes there can be some high dicepools. But what you have build there goes not only against common sense, it goes against rules as well.

First: How do you get an average body of 17 when no value is higher than 15? Easy answer: You don't.

Second: Orthoskin and Bone density: Do no work on/in cyberlimbs. (It is stated that nothing with essence costs can be used with cyberlimbs. That is what the cyberarmor is for.) Of course one could allow fraction of it to work in the torso/skull.

Rest seems good. All we need now is to have the Pain Editor so he will stay on target forever, and it is the terminator. Maybe some healing nanites to fix some things on the go *g*


Like I said, cyberlimbs aren't quite my forte. Never mess with them. I like my essence thank you very much. Still we're looking at around 60 dice.... that's scary as hell.
Yerameyahu
I still don't think Pain Editor stops physical overflow.

I feel like no one's gonna seek out the last thread, so I recall we also talked about freeze foam, Arcane Arrester to stop the stunbolts, spirit powers like Accident, um… oh, not having a combat-based storyline (ha!), etc.
Summerstorm
Of course it doesn't but it helps getting the needed damage to stop "IT" from like 9-10 boxes to 25+ *g*. HUGE difference. Even the first 2-3 stunbolts may not slow him down.
iategod
QUOTE (Cardul @ Jun 18 2010, 01:57 AM) *
If the damage value does not exceed his armour, any damage he takes is converted to Stun.I think Trauma Damper is what is used
to make the stunn less of an issue...however, unless he has enviro sealing, I would just use Neurostun gas, and if he does have
enviro sealing, that is what the HTRT's Mage with Stun bolt is for wink.gif


I don't understand. So if I get shot at (3firearms +3agility=6) and the thug gets 3hits with a 5p weapon. I don't get any hits on my opp roll. I then roll for resisted damage (body(9)+armor(23)+bone density(4)=36. I get 9 hits. So I shouldn't take any damage right? So when does the splash over stun damage come into play?


On a side note, the riot helmet has a gas mask so it should be immune to gas (core book 4e errata). If not I was thinking of taking internal air tank but it'll bite into the essence/magic.

And for those who think I'd need initiation, I didn't need to that I can tell. Got magic to 6 and taking the 2 bioware I had 4 left. Mystic armor lvl6 only needs 3. So I went with penetrating strike lvl3 and attrib boost lvl1.
Yerameyahu
P>S happens when you *do* damage boxes from an attack, but the modified DV is *less* than your modified armor (just armor). So, guy with 8/6 gets shot by that 5P +3 net hits, mod DV 8 is not greater than* mod armor 8; he resists 8 boxes of Stun (*not* using Body, remember).

*I may be wrong in this example, because I can't recall who wins ties. If the modified DV were 7, it'd be Stun for sure.

Don't forget that there are contact toxins, too. There's always another counter-counter-counter… smile.gif
Jaid
QUOTE (iategod @ Jun 17 2010, 10:51 PM) *
I don't understand. So if I get shot at (3firearms +3agility=6) and the thug gets 3hits with a 5p weapon. I don't get any hits on my opp roll. I then roll for resisted damage (body(9)+armor(23)+bone density(4)=36. I get 9 hits. So I shouldn't take any damage right? So when does the splash over stun damage come into play?


On a side note, the riot helmet has a gas mask so it should be immune to gas (core book 4e errata). If not I was thinking of taking internal air tank but it'll bite into the essence/magic.

And for those who think I'd need initiation, I didn't need to that I can tell. Got magic to 6 and taking the 2 bioware I had 4 left. Mystic armor lvl6 only needs 3. So I went with penetrating strike lvl3 and attrib boost lvl1.

you cannot have a higher rating in any adept power than your magic rating.

and like i said, if you want it to get really ugly, you get a lot of armor out of cyberlimbs if you (ab)use them right.
iategod
QUOTE (Jaid @ Jun 18 2010, 05:05 AM) *
you cannot have a higher rating in any adept power than your magic rating.

and like i said, if you want it to get really ugly, you get a lot of armor out of cyberlimbs if you (ab)use them right.



Oooohh
So I can only have it up to 4 cause that's what my magic is after essence costs. Draeg's character gen doesn't say anything bout that. That'll give me some points I can put into boost attrib or something to help with pain.

As for splash over, how much stun damage would the guy take? If the dv was 7 as you say, he would tar 1 stun damage?
Yerameyahu
Depends on the roll. All that happens is that P becomes S if the armor isn't beaten. So, uh, modified DV of 7 (5P/no AP gun +2 net hits) versus armor 8 does 7 boxes of Stun. Then, you resist with Willpower + Armor as normal.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jun 17 2010, 10:20 PM) *
Depends on the roll. All that happens is that P becomes S if the armor isn't beaten. So, uh, modified DV of 7 (5P/no AP gun +2 net hits) versus armor 8 does 7 boxes of Stun. Then, you resist with Willpower + Armor as normal.


Actually, Unless Specifically Indicated, you resist Stun Damage with Body + Armor (Page 162 of SR4A, Damage Resistance Tests)...

Just Sayin...

Keep the Faith
Yerameyahu
Oh? Hmm, how about that. smile.gif It says 'often used', but that's so vague. I must've misread.

Well, anyway, the point is that you resist the exact same damage as it would have been, except now it's Stun.
iategod
I would look into cyberlimbs but I have to keep gear etc at a rarity of 12 or lower. All the good stuff is up there
Yerameyahu
Honestly, you shouldn't look into it at all. No one wants to play in a game with some goofy charop monster. Shadowrun's about the cool things you do in a cool story. smile.gif
Mäx
QUOTE (Summerstorm @ Jun 18 2010, 04:00 AM) *
Second: Orthoskin and Bone density: Do no work on/in cyberlimbs. (It is stated that nothing with essence costs can be used with cyberlimbs. That is what the cyberarmor is for.) Of course one could allow fraction of it to work in the torso/skull.

There's nothing in the rules that says you get less bonuses from those and similar mods when you have cyberlimbs.

QUOTE (Tyro @ Jun 18 2010, 03:55 AM) *
Cyberlimbs replace attributes. You wouldn't use your natural body at all - you'd end up with 15, not 17.

Yes you do, he still has a natural head.
His mistake was dividing with 5 instead of 6, so he only has 14 Body.
iategod
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jun 18 2010, 05:32 AM) *
Honestly, you shouldn't look into it at all. No one wants to play in a game with some goofy charop monster. Shadowrun's about the cool things you do in a cool story. smile.gif


I hear ya there, the character I'm makigng if for a Doc wagon crew. I'm the distraction for em. His name is Meat, an ex-urban brawl character who was forced into retirement. Truth be told he was caught placing bets and throwing games (dark secret) so he left the limelight. He's not the best with money either thus working with the doc wagon.
Yerameyahu
Things like bone lacing used to not work in replacements in SR3, and it's a good rule for fairness, and a bad rule for simplicity. They took it out in SR4 AFAIK. *shrug*
Medicineman
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jun 17 2010, 11:45 PM) *
Things like bone lacing used to not work in replacements in SR3, and it's a good rule for fairness, and a bad rule for simplicity. They took it out in SR4 AFAIK. *shrug*


No,Its still in 4A
no Bones or Skin in or on Cyberarms,-Legs,-Torso,- or Skull

Hough !
Medicineman
KarmaInferno
<peers at cybermonstrosity>

<hits it with multiple high-force Manabolts>





-karma
Neraph
Ragewind has figured out how to get 120+/120+ armor with a standard 400 BP character. It's not that hard if you're really working at it. My mages don't walk around without 10/9 armor at least.
Medicineman
QUOTE (Neraph @ Jun 18 2010, 12:38 AM) *
Ragewind has figured out how to get 120+/120+ armor with a standard 400 BP character. It's not that hard if you're really working at it. My mages don't walk around without 10/9 armor at least.

Oh ,You mean a Surged Nartaki with 4 Pair of Arms carrying 8 Riot Shields,2 Cyberlegs & Torso&Skull full of Cyberarmor & PSP Pimped Armorjacked and FFFB Combo ? ?
Njah to that

Hough !
Medicineman
Saint Sithney
Where are the Gelpacks?
Stuff an extra +1/+1 into each and every piece of armor, including the helmet and the PPP pieces!
Neraph
QUOTE (Medicineman @ Jun 18 2010, 12:38 AM) *
Oh ,You mean a Surged Nartaki with 4 Pair of Arms carrying 8 Riot Shields,2 Cyberlegs & Torso&Skull full of Cyberarmor & PSP Pimped Armorjacked and FFFB Combo ? ?
Njah to that

Hough !
Medicineman

Kind of. It also involved being in a rigger coccoon inside a vehicle. That's like 60-70 armor there.
Dumori
Ah the I cant move and a poke will knock me down but I'm strapped in char. A partfrombeing unable to to jack and your transport bening to be scraped in a next to no time leaving uo in a riggers caccon with so much armor that movement is hindered is just funny. Oh your bullet proof are you HE nade or two followed by incendiary. Burn that troll.
Mäx
QUOTE (Medicineman @ Jun 18 2010, 08:03 AM) *
No,Its still in 4A
no Bones or Skin in or on Cyberarms,-Legs,-Torso,- or Skull

Hough !
Medicineman

Could you please quote an actual rule that says that the bonus you get from otho skin and the like becomes lower when you get a cyber-arm.

QUOTE (Neraph @ Jun 18 2010, 08:38 AM) *
Ragewind has figured out how to get 120+/120+ armor with a standard 400 BP character. It's not that hard if you're really working at it. My mages don't walk around without 10/9 armor at least.

And that character was totall bullshit and funnily still dies to combat mage casting couple of relativly high force soundwaves
Traul
QUOTE (Cardul @ Jun 18 2010, 02:57 AM) *
however, unless he has enviro sealing, I would just use Neurostun gas, and if he does have
enviro sealing, that is what the HTRT's Mage with Stun bolt is for wink.gif

Is Neurostun an Inhalation vector toxin? If so, no need to get Enviroseal, a simple internal air tank in one of the limbs will do.
Summerstorm
QUOTE (Mäx @ Jun 18 2010, 11:14 AM) *
Could you please quote an actual rule that says that the bonus you get from otho skin and the like becomes lower when you get a cyber-arm.


Hm. Maybe there are some more passages, but i would like to quote this one:

(Page 343, Cyberlimbs)
[... Cyberlimbs cannot hold any bioware, nor any cyber-implant that take up Essence rather than capacity.]

And since armor values are cumulative added, and you can't have enough to fill out the systems need you can't get the bonus. But like i said, maybe the GM will give you part of the system for adding it into the torso and skull (For the bones), since they are shells. Also of course for people who only have one/two cyberlimbs. But technicallyyou cannot have the whole system active.
Mäx
QUOTE (Summerstorm @ Jun 18 2010, 12:02 PM) *
Hm. Maybe there are some more passages, but i would like to quote this one:

(Page 343, Cyberlimbs)
[... Cyberlimbs cannot hold any bioware, nor any cyber-implant that take up Essence rather than capacity.]

So as i assumed thre's nothink, i thought maybe i just missed somethink.
By Raw you always get full benefit from orthoskin and its like ware.
Summerstorm
QUOTE (Mäx @ Jun 18 2010, 12:13 PM) *
So as i assumed thre's nothink, i thought maybe i just missed somethink.
By Raw you always get full benefit from orthoskin and its like ware.


Ah sure, you know what: Have a character with four cyberlimbs and cybertorso take Muscle Replacement too. You know as long as you pay the essence you always get the benefit. The rules don't say you can't install it, even if you have no natural muscles left.

See the point?

(page 341, Bodyware)
"Bodyware that does not have a capacity rating must be installed directly into the user's body; it cannot be installed into cyberlimbs."

Since you cannot install the full amount of dermal plating/Orthoskin/Muscle replacement etc. you cannot get the full advantage. (And do not pay the full essence costs) But that is for the GM to decide if he will allow it. Per RAW even a artificial hand blocks out orthoskin, because you cannot install it FULLY). Of course every GM will than decide that you get all advantages. But at a significant amount of cyberlimbs screw up those systems very much. (And yes it may be complicated, but tough luck)
Mäx
QUOTE (Summerstorm @ Jun 18 2010, 12:28 PM) *
Per RAW even a artificial hand blocks out orthoskin, because you cannot install it FULLY).

No where in the booksa does it say that, so by RAW you can install full orthoskin even if you have multiple cyberlimbs.
Stahlseele
As per RAW, all Bone and Skin-Work are completely compatible with all kinds of Cyberlimbs.
As long as you go with cyber-replacement, and not with the Cybork Drone Body Version . . .
Also, there's still the ultimate Monstrosity i lovingly call Binky ^^
Surged Centaur. Nartaki Arms. 6 Arms. 4 Legs. Torso and Head. Cyberzombie due to complete Body Replacement.
Bulk-Modification. Maximum Armor. Left over Capacity used for other nifty stuff. I don't think it gets any worse.
Because this would put him, at Standard Grade Ware, into -8 Essence or Something. So the Attributes go higher.
Wait, i forgot, Centaurs and the such can only take delta grade ware.
Also, Cyber-Zombie Resistance. Well, maybe you could make it worse if someone else tried to and managed to
get a high force spirit to go in there and possess him . . or if someone managed to put a high force armor spell on
that monstrosity . . and then you can STILL deck him out with worn armor too . .
I have never really done the math, but i guess this one can get up to about 100 dice for Damage Resistance.
Someone with a better knowledge of the rules could try and stat it out.

Of course, this Achievement is by no means a legit Starting Character. Or legit Character at any kind of time.
iategod
Right, well, i was trying to stick to a 400bp character limited by 12 availability items, with no encumbrance. Most of that other stuff will blow the top of my head off if even tried to make it.
Nal0n
Camouflage Suit - 8/6 - Av. 4
+ Gel Packs - +1/+1 - Av. 8
FFBA, Full Body Suit - 6/2 - Av. 8
PPP Forearm Guards - +0/+1 - Av. 6
PPP Leg and Arm Casings - +1/+1 - Av. 6
PPP Shin Guards - +0/+1 - Av. 5
PPP Vitals Protector - +1/+1 - Av. 4
Helmet - +1/+2 - Av. 2
Riot Shield - +2/+6 - Av. 6

Thats 20/21 (18/15 w/o the shield) with just normal, low availability armor.
With a Ballistic Shield, which has Av. 12 it'd be 24/19 if ballistic protection is more to your liking.
And if my calculations are not too far off a char with Body 6 can wear it w/o penalties wink.gif

As far as money is concerned: All the Armor stuff is 5,300 NuYen. The shields are 200 for the Riot and 1,500 for the ballistic one.
Not even 2 BP wink.gif
Traul
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jun 18 2010, 01:04 PM) *
Surged Centaur. Nartaki Arms. 6 Arms. 4 Legs.

QUOTE
Bulk-Modification.

QUOTE
and then you can STILL deck him out with worn armor too . .

Getting a suitable armor for him is a campaign on its own spin.gif
Stahlseele
*nods*
probably.
but still:
6x PPP Forearm Guards - +0/+6 - Av. 6
10x PPP Leg and Arm Casings - +10/+10 - Av. 6
4x PPP Shin Guards - +0/+4 - Av. 5
1x PPP Vitals Protector - +1/+1 - Av. 4
1x Helmet - +1/+2 - Av. 2
4x Riot Shield - +8/+12 - Av. 6
That's 20/35 right there ^^
Yerameyahu
Are the arm/leg/shin things individual or by the pair? Also, *groan*. biggrin.gif
iategod
QUOTE (Nal0n @ Jun 18 2010, 01:18 PM) *
Camouflage Suit - 8/6 - Av. 4
+ Gel Packs - +1/+1 - Av. 8
FFBA, Full Body Suit - 6/2 - Av. 8
PPP Forearm Guards - +0/+1 - Av. 6
PPP Leg and Arm Casings - +1/+1 - Av. 6
PPP Shin Guards - +0/+1 - Av. 5
PPP Vitals Protector - +1/+1 - Av. 4
Helmet - +1/+2 - Av. 2
Riot Shield - +2/+6 - Av. 6

Thats 20/21 (18/15 w/o the shield) with just normal, low availability armor.
With a Ballistic Shield, which has Av. 12 it'd be 24/19 if ballistic protection is more to your liking.
And if my calculations are not too far off a char with Body 6 can wear it w/o penalties wink.gif

As far as money is concerned: All the Armor stuff is 5,300 NuYen. The shields are 200 for the Riot and 1,500 for the ballistic one.
Not even 2 BP wink.gif



I don't understand how a body of 6 character can sport all that without being encumbered. So a body of 6 would be able to carry 12armor before becoming encumbered. Since helmets, shields, ppp stuff, and gel packs aren't considered seperate armor they just add to the highest rank of armor being worn. The form fitting armor is halved for encumbrance values (3/1). With a camo suit of 8/6 you'd run into the limit when it adds 4/6. Right? So the full form fitting body armor (at 3/1) plus riot shield (2/6) would put you over the top. Am i wrong?
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