This is just noting his armor. You assume he does not have other protections.


Harden is from Street Magic, and one way to get all those spirits is by having a magical group as a group contact. For example, you can get a 1 Connection/6 Loyalty group with 100-1,000 members and vast magical resources. So we have ~700 spellcasting mages, all at loyalty 6 that you can always get in touch with. Now you just ask them for 14 F6 spirits, and they give them to you with a smile.


That is correct, but I believe knockdown is only for damage taken after soaking. In this case, you'd take 0 damage, so you'd not be at risk of being knocked down. The GM may say that the 0 damage you took was greater than your -6 Body, in which case you can just drop off some gel packs and drop your armor like 10 points and still have over 100.

You can always say, 'well, I'll just to X!' and counter with 'well, then I'll just to Y!'. That's no reason for people not to mention the tactics.

That may be, but it ends up derailing a thread if those methods are not related to the thread. Also, the cost of the armor is easily available at chargen, and with the rest of your points you can be effective at other things, such as resisting magic and evading detection.

*shrug*. This is the 4th thread exactly like this I've read in the last month, and the first time I'd seen that tactic. It seemed relevant to me, if only as background info.

This is the 4th thread I've seen where Ragewind brings in over 100 armor, and the common tactic is to "counter" that with magic or grenades, neither of which are feasible because of the other things the character can do. It seems that people automatically get aggressive when someone is able to legally get numbers much higher than they can, whether it be 100 armor or I think Ragewind's record is like 400 dice to shoot someone with a gun.

I think people forget that they are not forced to use his RAW methodology and that many times it is simply an excercise in theoretical number stacking. Now his theory is actually legitimate, but I use that terminology to let people know that 99/100 times it does not even reach gameplay.

One hopes that it's 105/100 times, actually.

ya, i still find it hard to believe you can get over 100 armor on a 400bp character with a 12 or under item availability rating and without having friends to "support" your armor addictions.

A butt naked, none special metatype, 400bp character with no friends/contacts, and restricted to 12r gear or lower...... that should be base line.

You can never actually go below 0, you cannot have something that IS, ISN'T. The game stops counting reductions at 0 and thus you would always be at 0 body for Knockdown. Neraph as, previously pointed out, was correct you check for knock down when you actually take damage so as long as you soak all the damage you will never suffer knock bock.

However Gel Packs and Shields will check for encumbrance soooo you don't actually have to use them once you get to a number you are comfortable with.

Also a standard 400bp character with normal availability restrictions can do everything I mentioned, no Restricted Gear or any house rules required.

Well by yourself with some Cyberware you can get easy peasy

Human assuming BOD/Essence of 6

24/24 Cyberware
Shirt 0/0
24/8 Armor (FFBA x4)
0/5 PPP system
0/2 Hard Hat

= 48/47

No encumbrance, No spells, and just a bit of money. If you have a higher BOD you can get (of course) higher armor. Throw in a vehicle and you can hit over 200.



My power level has increased since last time and I am aware of how to negate that particular spell and its effects. If you would like to PM< me I would be glad to share, but I will not derail the thread over it.



Heh

Of course, your ending character is not Essence 6 is he? More like .15 or so with all that Cyberware... and a Restricted Gear Quality as well...

Just sayin'

Keep the Faith

You don't need a restricted gear for all that Ware'

Edit: Wait I lied you do, just the armor itself is like avail 20, you can lower the numbers to make it without a Restricted Gear if you can't spare 5 Bp, and the final numbers would be like 38/37

Actually people just get tired of him derailing every threat even minorly related to armor with his example that invols a lot of sketchy use of rules and counters every counter strategy by saying "I have a spell supstained on me that counters that" or "well yeah, but i have 15 mages doing counterspelling on me at all times"

24/8 Armor (FFBA x4)


Really? Come on man.
Wearing 4 times the sunscreen doesn't give you 4 times to protection. I know it doesn't say you "can't" layer it with itself, but i don't see anywhere in the book that says you can't add cyber limbs to humans either. Yet you don't see people adding cyber heads to their crotches with added armor and sensors claiming "it is called a head for a reason"

I admire the creativity but regardless of whether you call it bad meat or good cheese it still smells funny.

Cyber skull is availability 16 and cyberlimb armor is availability (ratingx5) and has to be purchased for each limb separately, so you're looking at 7 items that break the availability rules, and the restricted gear quality can only be taken three times.

It's called a Cyberware suite, everything is purchased as one and thus requires only 1 restricted gear. You would take the highest avalibility rating (in this case 20 for 4 armor) and that Is the one you use.

Technically we are layering FFBA with a armored shirt (0/0). Not actually with itself, also someone mentioned sunscreen in a previous example. If you were to cover yourself 4 times with sunscreen the buildup would form a opaque cover and completly block any light. So yes it WOULD actually protect you more

I'm very aware of how the rules interact with my builds, just because you don't like it doesn't mean it doesn't work, since I provide a creative service for those looking to enhance their characters I find it strange others feel the need to instantly "counter" anything I might post. I can play that game too but then I eould have to flesh a character out rather than provide a framework, as well as derail the thread. If you ask nicely I might acually make a character for you to pick apart.

Ha! Restricted Gear for a suite, that's the munchkin-est!

Actually, No... You buy limbs seperatly, so if they top over Availability 12, then you need a Restricted Gear Quality to purchase it (Assuming it does not go over 20)...

Arrogance knows no bounds apparently...

Keep the Faith

Sounds like you're taking things a little personal, for no reason. You have to expect anything to be critiqued, and yes, to have counters suggested. It's impossible to have a problem with that.

Not sure if you are referring to me there, Yerameyahu, but no worries...

Keep the Faith

Actually no, you buy them as one item and you use one restricted gear.

No nothing personal just enjoying the atmosphere.

For the Limb/Stats you do (as they are "Additional" to the base Limb), but not for other things that take up capacity... these are seperate... If you disagree, please provide a Reference for your interpretation...

Keep the Faith

My friend and I, just for kicks, made a human character with around 50 armor (no adept powers or magic and only an armored cybertorso). I believe I heard about someone else on this forum who made a character who could survive atmospheric re-entry. Additionally, riggers can just be ridiculous on armor if they sit in an armored drone (like a modified horseman) and wear armor inside that. But thats kinda cheating because you don't have to worry about encumbrance.

And sorry, I really didn't have the time to read all 5 pages of this thread, so excuse any redundant information.

That's like sitting in a tank. The people inside are protected, until they get hit by a single weapon shell that kills the tank and the people inside, armored are not. Equivalent to using the highest armor rating when stacking armor that isn't made to stack.

As for layering SPF 30 sunscreen, adding another coat doesn't make it SPF 60. Adding 10 doesn't make it more than SPF 30. Nothing personal, just pointing out inconsistencies.

I was actually referring to the literal reference of coating yourself with a substance to the point of complete enclosure.

I made a funny

But is it really a funny if no one laughs?

Keep the Faith

Perhaps you should reread the rules for cyberware suites (emphasis added);



So you are offering these non-RAW cyberware suites to anyone who wishes to play in your campaigns?

Remember, charop works under the crazy assumption that the GM says 'yes' to anything you ask.

I would like to direct your attention to my sig

Heheheh... Nice...

Keep the Faith

Perhaps you should read sidebars, specifically the one on page 159 of Augmentation. It specifically mentions cybersuites in context of full cyberlimb bodies.

Show me the rule where it says FFBA does not stack with FFBA. It works, I wouldn't use it, I wouldn't allow it; but from a theoretical, RAW standpoint, it is completely valid.


Actually, when you cyberware suite something, all items get added in together under one price and one availability. In that case, one Restricted Gear would satisfy the requirement of purchasing it at chargen.

There doesn't need to be a rule that FFBA doesn't stack with itself. It's obvious. You can't wear two helmets either.

Well, in a game of rules, you actually would need a rule to say that they don't, otherwise they do. And actually, you can "wear two helmets." You can wear a PPP helmet in the "obvious, strapped on" style on top of a helmet from the core rulebook.

The sidebar states that full body replacement, even if it was in a cyberware suite for, is very expensive compared to a cyborg with CCU. It doesn't say full body cyber replacements with four points of bulk on the skull, and four points of armor on all limbs exists, which is the only way you could get it all for one use of the restricted gear quality.

That's not two of the same thing. And PPP is dumb.

And no, you don't. Some things are given. There's no rule that you can't do hundreds of things that we know are impossible, stupid, or both.

There's no law stating you can't drive your car with your forehead either, it's just not a good idea

Ok, let me break it down for you...


So what this is saying is when you do A, B happens.
A = Wear form-fitting armor.
B = You add FFBA rating on to other worn armor.

The phrasiology is important as well. FFBA does not inherently have an armor rating - it only enhances other worn armor. The way to get this to work is that the core rulebook has defined clothing as 0/0 armor.

You can definitely wear FFBA alone. You definitely can't wear more than one. Only willful misreading would say you could.

... Are we reading the same information here? Let's try it again:


Ok, so this tells us that FFBA does not have armor at all - it only increases other armor worn. "When worn in combination" means you have to wear it with something else, "other pieces of armor" tells you what you need to wear it with. So, if you do not wear other pieces of armor, you do not get to add the rating, since that function only happens... you guessed it - "When worn in combination with other pieces of armor."

It also tells us that when you wear it, it increases armor worn. So that means if you wear 3, all 3 would "(add their rating) to the other armor's rating."

Is that difficult to understand?

EDIT: Expanded.

So you're wearing FFBA with FFBA with FFBA with (etc.) with a t-shirt.

Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo.

That actually is the correct way to do it, you need to add it to something else which is why in my brief bare bones examples i add in the 0/0 shirt.




They are and they are not RAW, the game tells you there are many out there and the ones listed are only a sampling, then it goes on to caution a gm about tailoring . As always YMMV, but it is certainly a feasible standard to go by.

Neraph was using the sidebar as a great example, of the plausibility of having such a full body replacement suite available to characters. Many people who like cyberware will get such a full replacement anyway and making it a suite just softens the essence cost.



Actually it would be the other way around, as the "limb/stats" your are talking about is not backed up or referenced anywhere in the rules, the rules for Cyberware suites on pages 48/49 explain how the suite rules work, and the example ones also follow the formula for the combined essence and availability ratings. Even things that are "additional" to the base limb are factored in on the examples, so in this regard I will need you to provide specific reference as to why you believe what you do.



I see what we consider to be cheesey varies greatly, but for added laughs you can technically use a restricted gear quality to buy a clinic as they have Availability ratings.

Neraph, there's no good reason to think that FFBA must be worn with a t-shirt. That's silly, and therefore wrong. And so on.

Actually RAW does say it can be worn "Standalone"

However, if you want to stack FFBA you need to "attach" it to another item to get the bonus, due to the wording of "Other Armor"

Other Armor I.E. Not FFBA

Hrmm.. I guess I missed that.

Curse you, speed reading.

Actually he thinks the whole gameworld works like that.
He apparently thinks that contacts are his characters personal slaves who do everythink he ask with a smile on their face and dont ask anythink in return.
Also read my last post(112)

They do that because of how the rules for contacts work(especially group contacts). Besides being extremely loyal to you with a rating 6, he can indeed ask for any sort of favor. Sure you have to "pay it back" but that is just fodder for some fun runs.

Edit: Actually now that I think about it, the question of the OP is done, I believe I will be bowing out now, if anyone would care to continue these discussions feel free to hit me up on a PM or start a new thread.

If we're going to play fast and loose with interpreting 'other armor', I'd just as soon 'read' that to mean 'other piece of armor'. There's no reason that other piece couldn't be an FFBA, in that case. No ridiculous t-shirt needed.

Dermal Plating says that it can not be combined with Orthoskin, but it never says that it can't be combined with EVEN MORE DERMAL PLATING. I'm in a low availability game, so I just took Muscle Toner 1 five different times. Now my Agility is MAXED OUT!

Oh man. Being a complete jackass is so awesome! RAW-RAW-SIS-BOOM-BA!

Except that PPP Analogues exist even today... Dumb or not, they are here to stay...
And I don't actually think that they are dumb, just situational...

Keep the Faith

and This...



That is not what the rules are saying at all... I just think that you are missing something in the translation is all...

FFBA DOES have an Armor Rating, and may be worn without any other articles of Armor is you so desire... and not all clothing is considered Armor... there are clothes in the book that have no armor rating, otherwise they would not have an entry for Armored Clothing like they do...

Also, you cannot wear Multiple sets of the same armor... that they did not state this explicitly is okay, you would not tell someone something that is overtly obvious would you? You cannot wear two sets of militatary Armor, but they don't tell you that you can't, so are you going to argue that it should be reasonable that you should? I am pretty sure you would agree that you cannot wear 2 sets of Light Combat Armor right? so why would you argue that you can wear two sets of FFBA?

Where you seem to be confusing things is though FFBA does have a rating, the PPP does not have an inherent armor rating, it just enhances what it already worn (or not worn, as I could have unarmored clothing and still wear the PPP Shin guards and arm guards for example, and still have an armor rating of 0/2)...

Thus the Rating vs. the Bonus thing in the books... FFBA Level 2 has armor ratings of 4/1, while a piece of PPP would have the +0/+1 notation...

The benefit of FFBA is that is is wearable underneath another set of Armor like an armored Jacket... and only counts as half encumberance... FFBA is the only full suit of armor that actually stacks with other armor (Inherent armor integrated on the body notwithstanding...

And for the record, from someone who has actually worn such armor (Under Armor with Over armor), it can get exceedingly uncomfortable over time... not something that you want to do unless you KNOW that danger is imminent...

As for Ragewind...




Your Stats are an intrinsic part of the Limb, and as such are listed as a +cost in Nuyen and additional vailability increment (and no additional Essence/capacity cost at all) to the limb itself for customizations... My interpretation for Enhancements however is that they are NOT inherent, and as such have a set cost for integration into the limb, as do any other additions for optional equipment using Capacity... Therefore, Limb Stat Customization is included in the Limb standalone, and would net you a Restricted Availability in tandem with the Limb as a single piece... ANY GEAR you place in the Limbs from that point on are standalone pieces, and therefore would need their own Restricted Gear Cost if they exceeded Availability 12...

Seems pretty simple to me...

Yes, you can use the rules for a Suite... But arguing that the availability for each part of the suite is integrated into the availability as a single entity is completely wrong in my opinion, you still have to acquire each piece of that suite individually before you can integrate them... You get a break on Suite Costs and Essence, but you will still need to satisfy the individual availabilities before the suite is constructed...

Keep the Faith