I know this has likely come up before....

In SR 4, I have a question about the Invisibility spell (and not the improved Invisibility spell).


So since Invisibility is a Mana spell and makes a person not see the subject of the spell, would it also work against an Astrally perceiving spellcaster or dual natured creature assuming they failed to resist?
That would include the aura of the invisibility spell on the target of the spell.


What about a patrolling spirit who is on the astral plane?

Thanks

Note the emphasis.

A Mage with Invisibility on would actually be more visible to any Astral observer, their natural aura would be shining brightly and then the Invisibility spell itself has an aura broadcasting your presence.

Yes although I really don't understand how that could work. Your mind should refuse to let you know the person is there no matter how you're trying to detect them.

No, that's not what Invisibility is doing. The spell just makes the target undetectable by sight. Period. That's all.

You can still hear, smell, touch or astrally perceive the target, the target still detectable by ultrasound or radar.

If you want a spell that makes you undetectable by more senses than sight, you have to design your own spell.

-CJ

Note that [i]sight[i] and [i]Astral Perception[i] are two different things and that's why a blind person (aka a ghoul) can still [i]see[i] via Astral Perception (or dual nature or astral projection).

To quote the SR4A book on page 208:

Thanks all!

What would happen if you had a adept who is astrally perceiving and a mage who astrally projects and follows around the adept. If the mage was casting invisibility on the adept from the astral would the adept be invisible?

That sounds logical.

Nope. The spell might make the adept invisible to normal sight, but the aura of the spell would still be a beacon in astral space. It's like trying to go around invisible while holding a bright light.

As has already been mentioned: Astral Perception is not Vision. They're two completely separate and distinct senses. Their only relationship is an editorial one; it's easier for humans to describe things visually than it is to describe a sense that none of us have ever experienced. They're otherwise as related as hearing and touch are (both of which, incidentally, are used to describe astral perception, too).

Going on about spell auras and all that hullabaloo is superfluous. Invisibility doesn't defeat astral perception for exactly the same reason it doesn't defeat smelling. Astral perception is quite literally a sixth sense.

The referenced rules earlier in the thread (regarding spell auras) are reasons why illusions can't be created to defeat astral perception in the same way that Invisibility can defeat vision or Stealth can defeat hearing. It would be the equivalence of an Invisibility spell that makes you glow, or a Stealth spell that clangs bells. Those same rules do not mean that astral perception and vision are the same sense.

It would seem that if an Astral Invisibility spell (Mana naturally) was developed (or rediscovered) and a person had both Invisibility and Astral Invisibility cast on them (so that dual natured creatures couldn't sense them with either sense.) then they would be covered. And the Astral Invisibility would keep any one failing to resist from also seeing the spell auras. Why, because Mana based illusions affect the mind.

And while in SR4A it says " Illusions cannot fool assensing to disguise or create auras.", we know initiates can mask their auras.

And in Digital Grimoire, False Impression and Manascape can at least disguise an aura.

Certainly Astral Perception seems to be a multi-sensory based on False Impression and Manascape.
I expect making an aura disappear must be too complex an illusion to pull off.


SR4A

Obvious illusions are used solely for entertainment and cannot
fool subjects into believing they are real. Realistic illusions seem completely
real. Single-sense illusions affect only one sense. Full sensory illusions
affect all senses. Though mana-based illusions can be created
on the astral plane, their magical auras give them away as illusions to
anyone who makes a successful Assensing Test (see Astral Perception,
p. 191). Illusions cannot fool assensing to disguise or create auras.
Mana Illusions: Mana-based illusion spells affect the mind and
are ineffective against technological viewing systems like cameras.
Mana illusions are resisted by Willpower + Counterspelling (if any).
Some mana illusions affect the target’s senses directly, others affect
the senses of anyone perceiving the subject of the spell (though the
spellcaster is not affected by her own spell).




From Digital Grimoire

ILLUSION SPELLS
False Impression (Realistic, Multi-Sense)
Type: M • Range: LOS • Duration: S • DV: (F ÷ 2) – 1
Manascape (Realistic, Multi-Sense, Area)
Type: M • Range: LOS (A) • Duration: S • DV: (F ÷ 2) + 1
These spells create illusions designed to feed false information
to the magical senses of passers-by. While it cannot create auras or
astral forms where there are none, it can change the impressions
gained from Assensing, the Psychometry or Sensing metamagic,
the Astral Window spell, the Magic Sense adept power, and
other magical senses. False Impression affects a single sustained
or quickened spell, aura, astral form, or the like, while Manascape
can affect an entire area, changing the impression of background
count, multiple auras, astral forms, etc.

That's the thing. You can't create an Astral Invisibility spell because of the limitation. Even if the spell did effectively erase your aura from astral perception, the spell's own aura would be painfully obvious... and quite noticeable since it would just sort of be floating there on its own. There's no way to hide a spell's aura through sorcery.

If I have a spell that can "cloud" the mind so that someone can not see a living human aura in astral space than do you really think covering the aura of that spell is going to be any problem at all?

Personally I like the idea that no one has developed an spell advanced enough to hide a living aura.

But if they ever did and could pull off the "No See" my aura, than they could also pull the "No See" my spell's aura.

Yeah, but what spell would stop *that* spell's aura?

Masking isn't the same thing as invisibility. You're making your aura look like another aura, that's it. You can't erase your aura from existence through Masking.

If memory serves, the critter power Alienation used to prevent even Astral Perception, as it made it impossible for anyone to perceive the subject in any way, but that power has long since been removed from the game, likely due to difficulties in defining exactly how it worked...

You are not erasing your aura from existence.

You are pulling the "These are not the droids you are looking for" trick on minds weak enough to be effected by the spell (if it existed).



And I figure perceiving Astral space is a very unique experience for for everyone which is why it is impossible to do.

And why spells that do disguise an aura like Manascape are Multi-Sense.

I don't know of the manascape spell. Is it a new one?

Anyways, Masking isn't a Jedi Mind Trick, since it works on wards and non-minds. It's a disguise, nothing more.

Manascape lets you create an illusion in astral space, it's in digital grimore. I believe you can still see the spell aura, but everything there is hidden. don't have the pdf with me.

A spell like that would be a manipulation spell similar to control thoughts.

No if you fail to resist the spell you see the illusionary aura instead of the real one (Because why create an false impression for an aura if you are not going to also cover the spell creating the false impression).

ILLUSION SPELLS
False Impression (Realistic, Multi-Sense)
Type: M • Range: LOS • Duration: S • DV: (F ÷ 2) – 1
Manascape (Realistic, Multi-Sense, Area)
Type: M • Range: LOS (A) • Duration: S • DV: (F ÷ 2) + 1
These spells create illusions designed to feed false information
to the magical senses of passers-by. While it cannot create auras or
astral forms where there are none, it can change the impressions
gained from Assensing, the Psychometry or Sensing metamagic,
the Astral Window spell, the Magic Sense adept power, and
other magical senses. False Impression affects a single sustained
or quickened spell, aura, astral form, or the like, while Manascape
can affect an entire area, changing the impression of background
count, multiple auras, astral forms, etc.

You have a point, but by that definition all Mana based illusions are manipulation spells.

Which I do admit is not be far off.


From SR4
"Mana Illusions: Mana-based illusion spells affect the mind and
are ineffective against technological viewing systems like cameras."

Mana based illusions make them sense something different, mental manipulation spells change how they act or think.

And a rose by any other name is still a rose.

BTL technology can be used to brain wash individuals and it is based on Simsense technology.



And if you look at the Illusion magic, the two branches work on totally different principles.

One branch is basically mental manipulation to make some one sense something that is not really there while the other branch involves energy manipulation to create free standing "holographs" for want of a better word.


But it is magic so who says it has to make sense.

And just to be clear, I'm only saying that an unresisted Manascape or False Impression spell will also disguise the presence of the spell.

A true illusionist is one that can fool others by hidding the truth with a lie. The basic strategy is to use the most simple illusions, like the Physical Mask and Illusion spells. I also believe the Masking metamagic falls into the 'Illusion' category.

The true illusionist shines when he's able to use obvious illusions to hide the truth, and it all depends on situation. Some examples:

- Cast Mask on a target to look exactly the same. If the target is being assensed, the illusion will show, creating doubt and confusion that can come up as an advantage.

- Cast Mask to make yourself look like your target. It won't fool him, but it will fool his partners, buying you time to live a few more IP. Cast Mask on yourself to fool the enemy mage as well (which one is the real 'friend' and which one his truly hidding behind an illusion ??).

- Imagine you're in a corridor with at least 2 doors. Cast Phantasm on the door you're not taking to make is show like a wall. Any assensing pursuit will surely jump at the conclusion that you took the door hidden by the illusion.


Granted, these are all situational examples, but that's only to show how the obvious is not truly obvious. Illusions are great tools if used properly.

I need to remember these.

You not affecting the aura, your affecting the mind of the observer. There is a difference between making a large building disappear, and simply convincing you that you can no longer see it. I believe his is aiming for the latter, at which point no effort actually has to be made to hide the auras of things protected by the spell, as that isn't the point. The spell would simply need to convince the observer that there is nothing there worth seeing, so they overlook it.

Mana based illusions affect one of the sensory cortexes of the brain while mental manipulations affect the motor cortex (control actions), hypothalamus (control emotions) or frontal lobe (control thoughts).



Which might be possible with control thoughts, or a custom spell that altered memory.

Exactly.

And my personal theory is that Astral perception is so intense, so multi sensory (as in you are using all your senses to interpret what you are perceiving astrally) , so unique to each person that creating a spell to make them "Not See" an aura is just too hard to pull off.


Also case in point Mana Illusion are resisted by Will.

Some thing wouldn't seem right giving it away. You would just know there was an aura there. Like a sight based Mana Illusion hiding a bonfire.
There is no light, but you could feel the "heat" and smell the "smoke".

Which explains why they can not do an Astral Invisibility spell and make some thing with an aura seem to disappear by doing a "No See".
Anyone assensing it would know there was something there. They could feel the wrongness because the spell couldn't cover the unique way each person interprets the Astral plane.

So instead you have to make it seem like something else.

I think Manascape and False Impression function more like an Astral Physical Illusion.
They are masking the aura to seem some thing it is not rather than effecting the mind of the observer

Going with the above example, since you can not make the bonfire disappear you make it appear to be a campfire or a hot engine block.
That explains the "heat" and "smoke". If no one gets too close they will never know.

You'd have to 'not see' the person's aura, *and* the spell auras. Are spell auras part of the person?

You'd just have to convince them a particular region of astral space had nothing noteworthy in it. The human brain is remarkably adept at lying to us and filling in blind spots.

So now it's an area effect?

I assume a substained spell casted on a person would over lay their aura. That was canon I think in prior editions.

Fairly simple to see if you have a clear view.


But then so wearing an over coat with a flashing neon red sign saying WANTED SHADOWRUNNER!!!!.


The coat might make it easier for some one to resist an Invisibility spell but a powerful enough spell would still work.



If I use False Impression to make the Street Samurai's aura look like he is a 100% cyberware free, back to nature 300 pound prima donna opera star.

Then it would be a 100% cyberware free, back to nature 300 pound prima donna opera star sans any illusion spells.


If an observer fails to resist the the Illusion then he doesn't also fails to notice the spell too.

I'm having a little trouble with the grammar. Are you saying that Illusion spells cloak themselves as a free effect?

Sure why not? I mean seriously why not? All the spell needs to do is prevent your brain from recognizing there in a a collection of auras in a given region of space, and make your brain fill it in with a background appropriate to the environment. You're brain already does this every time you open your eyes, so having a spell cause someone 'third eye' to behave in the same way should be far from impossible.

Manascape is the area effect version of False Impression.

I believe he is saying the specific spell in question would have to conceal its own aura as well, or it would be useless. If a spell designed to mask auras does not mask its own, then it is not going to work. It would be like wearing a mask with a neon sign attached to it labeling you as an impostor.

I'm just asking, Mordinvan. Be calm.

Metaphors can be useful, but they can also be problematic. In this example, the overcoat covers (for example) a gun. I can't see the gun at all, but I can see that he's wearing an overcoat.

I'm not giving an opinion on the rules here, so I hope no one thinks I'm attacking them. I'm asking questions.


To me, this sounds like False Impression only works on one single thing, because it specifically says 'single', and then lists: 'spell, aura, form' etc.

I'm saying that False Impression and Manascape, two Mana Illusion spells from Digital Grimoire, allows you to mask an aura(s) to look like another type of aura.

"These spells create illusions designed to feed false information to the magical senses of passers-by. While it cannot create auras or astral forms where there are none, it can change the impressions gained from Assensing, the Psychometry or Sensing metamagic, the Astral Window spell, the Magic Sense adept power, and other magical senses. False Impression affects a single sustained or quickened spell, aura, astral form, or the like, while Manascape can affect an entire area, changing the impression of background count, multiple auras, astral forms, etc."

I assume that for False Impression that would include the aura from the spell itself as a freebie.
Manascape is area effect so it could certainly cover more than one aura including its own period.

I suppose a GM could rule that you would need Manascape to cover up the aura of the False Impression on our low essence aura of the Street Samurai trying to pass as the 100% natural Fat Lady Opera singers since False Impression says it affects a single sustained or quickened spell, aura, astral form, or the like.

That seems rather pointless since all that would happen is no one would take False Impression.
After all why take a "Astral Masking" Illusion spell that requires you to use another spell to hide the "Astral Mask" spell.




From Digital Grimoire

ILLUSION SPELLS
False Impression (Realistic, Multi-Sense)
Type: M • Range: LOS • Duration: S • DV: (F ÷ 2) – 1
Manascape (Realistic, Multi-Sense, Area)
Type: M • Range: LOS (A) • Duration: S • DV: (F ÷ 2) + 1
These spells create illusions designed to feed false information
to the magical senses of passers-by. While it cannot create auras or
astral forms where there are none, it can change the impressions
gained from Assensing, the Psychometry or Sensing metamagic,
the Astral Window spell, the Magic Sense adept power, and
other magical senses. False Impression affects a single sustained
or quickened spell, aura, astral form, or the like, while Manascape
can affect an entire area, changing the impression of background
count, multiple auras, astral forms, etc.

Right. Again, it sounds like False Impression changes one single thing: in your example, you hide the presence of cyberware in a person's aura (or rather, you specify that their aura 'looks like an opera singer with no cyber', whatever that looks like ).

I don't think it's obvious whether or not this spell hides itself as well, from the given information.

Same here.
Just having fun trying to figure out how to handle it.


Let me change the Metaphor.

OK 300 pound street samurai in a flashing red neon overcoat and I use Mask (M) to make him look like a 160 pound elderly Japanese executive in a tuxedo.


Any camera is going to be seeing the street samurai and will see the flashing red lights reflecting off of everything even when not directly observing the him.


Now the question is what would any living observer see what assuming they don't resist the spell (and I'll assume they have some serious bonuses)?

I figure they wouldn't notice because they failed to resist the illusion spell even with the bonuses provided because of the flashing red neon sign.



We can get in to some questions on the differences between what you would see with a Physical Mask and a regular Mana based Mask spell.
You could say the same thing because the Physical Mask's "holograph" effect was blocking the flashing red light and the observer failed to notice anything even with the modifiers.



We could go one with looking at what shape shadow would the street samurai be throwing.


I guess the only way to keep it sane is to say that is all reflected in the Observers Resistance roll to the spell with any modifiers.

If you are very close in appearance to the Mask image and are wearing all the right clothes and perfumes then it is very hard to resist the Mask spell because there are no clues to tip your subconscious off.

I can agree with that and because of that I would never take False Impression just to avoid this conversation with a GM.

But there seems little point in making the spell useless for its intend purpose to PCs when they can just learn it's big brother.

The first words out of most player's mouths after a GM told them that the False Impression spell didn't hide the spell aura because it only mask one aura at a time would be "OK, I'll just take Manascape instead."



And I wouldn't blame them.

It would be like learning an Invisibility spell that caused a giant spot light/glowing circle to follow you around where ever you went.

You are invisible so you don't cast a shadow, but you really not going to be very successful hiding or sneaking around with a glowing circle following you.

And someone is going to figure out they need to start a game of "See if you can land a grenade in the glowing circle" before too long.

So why bother?

Hmm. I think the metaphors are making it worse. So, most spells block/change something (visible, audible, etc.) and leave an aura. No problem there. When the spell is specifically affecting an aura or aura-like target, however… I dunno. False Impression is very vague about what it even does, after all. I assume it's 'Mask For Magic Senses', so it acts like that: makes something look like something else. No problem so far.

So we're back to, 'does it hide its own aura?'. Hmm. I feel like close examination (Assensing) should be able to notice the illusion's aura, though. :/ It feels more interesting: "hmm, wait a tick, there's an illusion… I wonder what it's hiding, I'll investigate further…"

Also, best game ever.

False Impressions does exactly what it says it does: Changes the information gained on an Assensing Test. Changes. Not eliminate, not hide, not mask. So instead of appearing as, say, a False Impressions spell you can make it look like an Invisibility spell or a Flame Aura spell or whatever. It is to auras what Mask is to metahumans.

(For the record, the Digital Grimoire is shit.)

Observers affected by the mask would see a 160 pound Japanese man in a tux with the area around him bathed in red flashes for no apparent reason. Targeted illusions only affect the actual target, while things they interact with or affect are perceived normally, as explained in the description of the stealth spell.

So you could either cast the spell on someone and make the False Impression spell look like another spell.
But that wouldn't mask the Samurai's aura.

Or you could cast another False Impression on the first False Impression masking the Samurai's aura, but then you have Fat Lady with a False Impression cast on them and you are exactly where you were and having to substain two spells.

So why bother?

A player is going to be more of pain with Manascape than with False Impression.

True, but "Invisibility affects the minds of viewers. Improved invisibility creates
an actual warping of light around the subject that affects technological
sensors as well" SR4A 209


If I can bend light around some one with an Improved Invisibility spell then wouldn't a Physical Mask spell be able to make a coat covered in red flashing neon letters look like a tuxedo?
Or no coat at all?
If the illusion was of a silver sequin Tuxedo then wouldn't the mask spell make it appear to reflect flashes of silver light rather than red light?


Or to take the casting a shadow example, wouldn't it make said Street Samurai cast a shadow of a much shorter and thinner elderly Japanese Executive?

Wouldn't a Mask spell make you believe that the shadow being cast by said Street Samurai was the shadow of a much smaller executive.

It comes to "Anyone who might see through the disguise must first successfully
resist the spell." SR4A 209


Just modify the observer's resistance roll to the Illusion.

Mask (Realistic, Multi-Sense)
Type: M • Range: T • Duration: S • DV: (F ÷ 2)
Physical Mask (Realistic, Multi-Sense)
Type: P • Range: T • Duration: S • DV: (F ÷ 2) + 1
The Mask spell requires the caster to touch the subject. The subject assumes
a different physical appearance (of the same basic size and shape)
chosen by the caster. This alters the subject’s voice, scent, and other
physical characteristics as well.
Anyone who might see through the disguise must first successfully
resist the spell. Simply make one Spellcasting Test and use the hits
scored as the threshold for anyone that resists at a later point.
Mask affects the minds of viewers. Physical Mask creates an illusion
that affects technological sensors as well.

SR4A 209

Creating an illusion of a silver sequined tux on a person not wearing something that would give off the flashes of light like a silver sequined tux would not put the lighting effect on the surrounding areas.



Again, no. Only the actual person is changed by the mask spell.



It may give a threshold modifier to the perception test to determine if something was wrong, with more extreme changes giving less of a modifier. If Joe Civilian notices something off, he'll likely avoid the person, but John Guard will certainly start questioning them and likely call for backup. The examples given here (no light being reflected by sequins, and incorrect shadow) are not likely to be noticed most of the time, however major changes (neon lights or a flashlight hidden by a mask/invisibility spell) will be much more obvious.

Yep. Just like Mask won't make you invisible, it would just make you look like someone else.


Uh, what? Take a moment to catch your breath and read what people are saying, rather than reading into what they're saying and trying to alter it to what you want them to be saying. It might help a bit.


From what I see you're saying, not really. Manascape is just "Mass False Impressions." It won't be able to mask its own aura, only preexisting auras in its area of effect.

I think your biggest problem is that you're not quite getting that this is a limitation of Sorcery, not Magic. Those are two separate things. Sorcery cannot be used to remove an aura, especially a spell's own aura, but there might be a metamagic technique, critter power, or some other means of doing so down the road. False Impressions is already a borderline spell, but that's not surprising since most of Digital Grimoire is a hodgepodge of random nonsense, wretchedly written rules, and inconsistency anyway. Don't cling to it like it's actual gospel or a wonderful place to draw proof of concepts from.

If you really insist on introducing something like this in your game, lean towards making it an advanced metamagic technique that keys off of Masking and Extended Masking as prerequisites. And even then, be very careful about how you approach it. Oh, and be sure you're sufficiently powerful to defend yourself once word of your development gets out. Every megacorporation and powerful magician the world round will likely be hunting you down to learn its secrets.