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Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Cheops @ Jun 27 2010, 11:21 AM) *
Riggers are dead in SR4. No reason to play one anymore. A sam or a hacker can easily fill in for one and often do the job just as well. It's so cheap to be a hacker that you may as well be a sam, face, or rigger (or possibly 2-3 of those) at the same time. That's why I've fallen in love with the optional rule of dice pool modifiers affect the threshold of the test and not your dice pool. Now the control rig lets you do all sorts of crazy stuff that you might not otherwise attempt. Gives a bit more justification for a rigger class.


Sorry, I have to disagree with you here... Riggers are pretty damn awesome in SR4 (At least in my opinion anyways)... Much more than in previous editions in my opinion. They are just as capable as in previous editions (If not more), And they are also capable of fulfilling other roles (Especially Hacking, if they are so inclined, as their skills will mesh nicely)...

I don't really like that particular optional Rule myself, but that is just me...

Keep the Faith

Yerameyahu
Hacker IS rigger, and that's a good thing.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jun 27 2010, 12:59 PM) *
Hacker IS rigger, and that's a good thing.



True... and Yes...

Keep the Faith
Critias
QUOTE (Cheops @ Jun 27 2010, 02:21 PM) *
Riggers are dead in SR4. No reason to play one anymore. A sam or a hacker can easily fill in for one and often do the job just as well. It's so cheap to be a hacker that you may as well be a sam, face, or rigger (or possibly 2-3 of those) at the same time. That's why I've fallen in love with the optional rule of dice pool modifiers affect the threshold of the test and not your dice pool. Now the control rig lets you do all sorts of crazy stuff that you might not otherwise attempt. Gives a bit more justification for a rigger class.

There's no such thing as a "rigger class," because there's no such thing as classes.
Ol' Scratch
The problem is that there's no such thing as a Rigger, period, because all Riggers are Hackers. It's like trying to distinguish between a Mage and a Conjurer. It's just a specialty of a general archetype now, instead of its own unique niche like it used to be.

Which all of you know is exactly what Cheops was saying.
Whipstitch
Matter of preference. Personally, I'm fine with it.

And ironically enough, I concluded that letting the Control Rig flat out lower thresholds even further would actually make it less important to invest a good amount of points into having truly good Pilot skills. You already get a -1 to Thresholds via piloting through VR. Give a samurai a Horseman and a 10k nuyen, .5 essence Control Rig that also lowers thresholds and suddenly he's doing stoppies with minimal skill and a pinch of luck. Thanks, but no thanks. Making Riggers their own thing again isn't a one pass fix.

For the record though, I disagree that all Riggers are Hackers. You don't need Hacking to be a good Rigger and you don't need all those programs. You can get by with Computer and Cybercombat to keep people out of your stuff or could even try getting by with a good enough Agent if you really wanted to. I'll grant you that it's definitely -tempting- to go further and take those handy skills since they're low hanging fruit if you go with Skill Groups, but there's a difference between something being tempting and something being a given.
Critias
QUOTE (Ol' Scratch @ Jun 27 2010, 04:00 PM) *
The problem is that there's no such thing as a Rigger, period, because all Riggers are Hackers. It's like trying to distinguish between a Mage and a Conjurer. It's just a specialty of a general archetype now, instead of its own unique niche like it used to be.

Which all of you know is exactly what Cheops was saying.

I think it takes more than a few plugs to make someone a Rigger or a Hacker. I know I've got at least three characters, just off the top of my head, that are drivers (and are capable of controlling drones), that certainly aren't Hackers by any stretch of the imagination.

This being a classless game, a character is what you make of it. The fact it doesn't take 2, 3, or 5 points of Essence to get a VCR rig any more is a good thing, in my opinion. A wildly, fantastically, feverishly, good thing.
Saint Sithney
QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist @ Jun 27 2010, 09:12 AM) *
2. Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, an autocannon does not use cannon rounds? Sorry no, it only uses cannon rounds. Also as pointed out by cheops there is a bit of logical incongruity with a ship mounted cannon on a small steel lynx.


I think you're mixing up the GE Vanquisher Autocannon with the GM Heavy Cannon Main Gun. The GM Heavy is the one which says it uses special rounds which share the same cost and availability as assault cannon rounds. The autocannon says no such thing, so one would assume no such thing.

It also says it's used for tankbuster vehicles and will fit in a heavy turret mount. You can put a heavy turret mount on a steel lynx, ergo, you can fit an autocannon on a steel lynx. Or, stuff a hidden turret in a bus or something if that's what you require to feed the RC needs with RC = body.

The point is, when you need artillery on demand, a mage will do, but if artillery is the plan, call a rigger.
Lanlaorn
All this talk has me trying to create a decent mage/rigger as a thought exercise but it's pretty tricky if you want to start with a few Foci (which I think is quite important, a Sustaining 3 (health) + Power 2 at least IMO) since properly modified and fitted drones are also expensive as hell (unless I'm doing it wrong, heh).
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (Critias @ Jun 27 2010, 05:00 PM) *
I think it takes more than a few plugs to make someone a Rigger or a Hacker. I know I've got at least three characters, just off the top of my head, that are drivers (and are capable of controlling drones), that certainly aren't Hackers by any stretch of the imagination.

This being a classless game, a character is what you make of it. The fact it doesn't take 2, 3, or 5 points of Essence to get a VCR rig any more is a good thing, in my opinion. A wildly, fantastically, feverishly, good thing.

And none of that actually has anything to do with what the guy was saying.

Riggers are dead. They're a specialty to a broader category of character. Unlike, say, Mages or Hackers. It has nothing to do with VCR's being expensive, but with Riggers actually being unique and requiring focused character builds to make them worthwhile; not something anyone else can do just by dropping a few nuyen in the bucket and calling it a day. When you can just get a cheap Control Rig and toss a few extra programs on your Commlink... that doesn't make you a Rigger. It makes you a Hacker who can rig. Same applies for adepts or anyone else you care to choose for the base archetype.

And, for the record, a "driver" is not a Rigger. It takes a Control Rig or its equivalence to be one.
Redcrow
I may be in the minority, but I hate that they eliminated the niche that Riggers used to fill and meshed them so thorougly with Hackers. Thats because vehicle chases tend to be a large staple of the games I run though. I don't particularly like the idea that Hackers can become combat monsters both in and out of the Matrix for such a small amount of extra essence and a couple basic drones. I like that SR doesn't have set classes and characters can mix 'n match however they wish, but I don't like the dumbing down of specializations.
Whipstitch
I don't really see how it's a subcategory of Hacker when you don't need Hacking skills to be a Rigger. You don't even need Hacking to protect your stuff, really. If you're paranoid you could go with Data Bombs, Computer-Analyze and some Cyber Combat if you REALLY feel like squaring off with them yourself as a cyber-brawler while Agents and such can do a decent job if you want to bare bones it. Otherwise you can just go with Manual Control Override Systems and start driving with your own two hands if you'd rather skip taking a dose of 'trix skills and instead just have a backup system when wireless starts to turn against you. Or else you could just take a length of fiber optics and stick that baby into your datajack. There's advantages to going the "I know the 'trix inside and out!" Hacker-Rigger route, but you guys are definitely exaggerating the necessity of it. You don't need total exclusivity to be well-defined.
BlueMax
Y'all done hijacked what was a progressing magic vs non magic thread into a "Are all Riggers Hackers" thread.

BlueMax
/take this thread to Cuba
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Ol' Scratch @ Jun 27 2010, 04:47 PM) *
And none of that actually has anything to do with what the guy was saying.

Riggers are dead. They're a specialty to a broader category of character. Unlike, say, Mages or Hackers. It has nothing to do with VCR's being expensive, but with Riggers actually being unique and requiring focused character builds to make them worthwhile; not something anyone else can do just by dropping a few nuyen in the bucket and calling it a day. When you can just get a cheap Control Rig and toss a few extra programs on your Commlink... that doesn't make you a Rigger. It makes you a Hacker who can rig. Same applies for adepts or anyone else you care to choose for the base archetype.

And, for the record, a "driver" is not a Rigger. It takes a Control Rig or its equivalence to be one.


You know, if you are going to make statements that the Rigger is dead, it really minimizes what you say when you then say that you need a Control Rig to be a Rigger... Either they exist or they don't... Which is it? You cannot have it both ways. I believe that you are wrong. Riggers are very playable characters that do not really need any serious level of Hacking to perform their duties. Admittedly, if they do take Hacker skills, it will aid them greatly in their function as a Rigger, but it is not absolutely necessary.

As for needing a control rig to be called a Rigger, I call bollocks to that, because it is not true at all... You can rig perfectly well without one (After all, it only adds +2 Dice, and does not actually reduce Thresholds)...

Keep the Faith
Critias
QUOTE (Ol' Scratch @ Jun 27 2010, 06:47 PM) *
And none of that actually has anything to do with what the guy was saying.

Riggers are dead. They're a specialty to a broader category of character. Unlike, say, Mages or Hackers. It has nothing to do with VCR's being expensive, but with Riggers actually being unique and requiring focused character builds to make them worthwhile; not something anyone else can do just by dropping a few nuyen in the bucket and calling it a day. When you can just get a cheap Control Rig and toss a few extra programs on your Commlink... that doesn't make you a Rigger. It makes you a Hacker who can rig. Same applies for adepts or anyone else you care to choose for the base archetype.

And, for the record, a "driver" is not a Rigger. It takes a Control Rig or its equivalence to be one.

Obviously your idea of a Rigger and my idea of a Rigger aren't matching up. Have a good one.
Yerameyahu
You can put a *heavy* turret on a Steel Lynx? I wasn't aware they had Body 14+.

You're right, I didn't mean Rigger is a Hacker (as in, cybercombat, exploit, etc.). I meant Rigger is a Hacker (as in, Matrix-centric, commlink-bound character).
Saint Sithney
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jun 27 2010, 06:18 PM) *
You can put a *heavy* turret on a Steel Lynx? I wasn't aware they had Body 14+.

You're right, I didn't mean Rigger is a Hacker (as in, cybercombat, exploit, etc.). I meant Rigger is a Hacker (as in, Matrix-centric, commlink-bound character).


Well, all you need is a Reinforced Fixed Weapon mount, which you can fit on any vehicle with 4 body or more. Then you've got yourself a gun on wheels.
Yerameyahu
Hmm. I must be confused on a couple things. First, that's not a Heavy Turret, but I assume the post only meant 'larger than LMG mount'; second, a Reinforced Mount takes up two Standard Mount slots, and it's one Standard Mount per 3 Body. Right?
Saint Sithney
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jun 27 2010, 06:31 PM) *
Hmm. I must be confused on a couple things. First, that's not a Heavy Turret, but I assume the post only meant 'larger than LMG mount'; second, a Reinforced Mount takes up two Standard Mount slots, and it's one Standard Mount per 3 Body. Right?


Yep, per 3 body, rounded up.

So, 4 rounds up to two mounts.
Yerameyahu
Ha, no way. nyahnyah.gif I forgot that silly clause was in the book, because we know that's terrible and wrong at my table. biggrin.gif
Redcrow
I would also like to add that I don't like how Smartgoggles are now basically just as good as an internal Smartlink system. I prefer the way previous editions handled that with a +1 for Smartgoggles and a +2 for an internal Smartlink. But thats just one of many many changes I don't like.
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE (Critias @ Jun 27 2010, 08:14 PM) *
Obviously your idea of a Rigger and my idea of a Rigger aren't matching up. Have a good one.

Yeah. It's really hard to grasp that a Rigger actuallys rigs a vehicle, usually via a Vehicle Control Rig. See ya.
Yerameyahu
Redcrow, tough to do anything about that. Anyone can just wear trodes, for example, if the goggles are the problem, and basically anything has Image Link. Really, even a 'tough' version of such a restriction would only force everyone to get a tiny Datajack; only the Mages and Adepts would suffer.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Ol' Scratch @ Jun 27 2010, 07:50 PM) *
Yeah. It's really hard to grasp that a Rigger actuallys rigs a vehicle, usually via a Vehicle Control Rig. See ya.


Really? I thought that Riggers were Dead... Isn't that what you said?

Keep the Faith
Ol' Scratch
Yep. Try to pay attention to the conversation before jumping in with such poignant observations.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Ol' Scratch @ Jun 27 2010, 08:02 PM) *
Yep. Try to pay attention to the conversation before jumping in with such poignant observations.


Still have not changed have you... You make incredibly inane comments and then complain when people point them out to you... Well, I guess that you have to keep that image going don't you? Otherwise you would not be you...

You will never change, and I think that that is very sad...

Keep the Faith
nemafow
So.. Back to talking about how spells are strong?
Saint Sithney
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jun 27 2010, 06:41 PM) *
Ha, no way. nyahnyah.gif I forgot that silly clause was in the book, because we know that's terrible and wrong at my table. biggrin.gif


Body 1 minidrone all flying around on 6 inch wings, carrying a Vindicator LMG with 500 rounds of ammo...

RAW is hilarious.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (nemafow @ Jun 27 2010, 08:09 PM) *
So.. Back to talking about how spells are strong?


I agree...
Does anyone have an opinion on Custom Designed spells for players? Do you allow it or not?
Does Anyone have any good examples of such spells available to share?

Keep the Faith
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Saint Sithney @ Jun 27 2010, 08:09 PM) *
Body 1 minidrone all flying around on 6 inch wings, carrying a Vindicator LMG with 500 rounds of ammo...

RAW is hilarious.


I am pretty sure that it was fixed in the errata to one mount per 3 body, Rounded Down.
My Copy of the 2nd Printing of Arsenal Confirms this...

Keep the Faith
Yerameyahu
Certainly allow them, on the template of existing spells. Wholly new stuff is 'maybe, probably no'.

Indeed, Saint and Tymeaus. Clearly it must be 'round down'.
Redcrow
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jun 28 2010, 02:53 AM) *
Redcrow, tough to do anything about that. Anyone can just wear trodes, for example, if the goggles are the problem, and basically anything has Image Link. Really, even a 'tough' version of such a restriction would only force everyone to get a tiny Datajack; only the Mages and Adepts would suffer.


I'm all in favor of more suffering for Mages, but the truth is I always liked the idea that there was actually some benefit to internal vs. external smartlinks considering one costs essence and the other does not. Its the kind of thing that separates the men from the boys.
Redcrow
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jun 28 2010, 03:12 AM) *
I agree...
Does anyone have an opinion on Custom Designed spells for players? Do you allow it or not?
Does Anyone have any good examples of such spells available to share?

Keep the Faith


I generally allow custom spells in my game, but the first thing I always consider when reviewing any spell that a player wants for their character is how is this going to be abused because honestly thats probably what the player was thinking when they designed it, I'm sure.
Saint Sithney
It gets even weirder.

QUOTE (errata)
p. 105 Vehicle Weapons and Recoil
Replace “weapon mount with an LMG onto a small drone
with a body rating of 2 (cat-sized)” with “weapon mount with
HMG on a compact drone with a body rating of 3 (humansized)”


An HMG requires a reinforced mount...
Lanlaorn
QUOTE
I generally allow custom spells in my game, but the first thing I always consider when reviewing any spell that a player wants for their character is how is this going to be abused because honestly thats probably what the player was thinking when they designed it, I'm sure.


That's incredibly cynical of you.
Yerameyahu
Right, but there's really no distinction between trodes and datajack in SR4, so they'd just get trodes instead. Who even wears goggles for the Image Link? biggrin.gif

Not cynical, just experienced. nyahnyah.gif *Anything* custom-designed in any RPG should be scrutinized that way.
Lanlaorn
I agree that anything custom designed is inevitably stronger than stock elements, simply because of the metagaming aspects, it will be everything you need and nothing you don't.

That said, these things are usually made because players think they will be cool as hell, and they're overpowered only as a side effect. Few people set out with the intent "Man I'm going to make something ridiculously cheesy".
nemafow
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jun 28 2010, 01:32 PM) *
Not cynical, just experienced. nyahnyah.gif *Anything* custom-designed in any RPG should be scrutinized that way.


I tend to agree, while it may be innocent at first, it may not be later on and become a serious issue.
Redcrow
QUOTE (Lanlaorn @ Jun 28 2010, 03:31 AM) *
That's incredibly cynical of you.


Just wait 'til I get going. rotate.gif

Redcrow
QUOTE (Lanlaorn @ Jun 28 2010, 03:35 AM) *
Few people set out with the intent "Man I'm going to make something ridiculously cheesy".


You obviously have more luck in the pool of players that you have than I. Sometimes I swear my players make things extra cheesy with the hopes I will simply nerf it down to where they wanted it anyway.
Lanlaorn
Well you get to pick the people you play with heh wink.gif While the folks I tend to hang out with are notorious min/maxers (we're all engineering grad students or in entry level engineering jobs so I suppose optimizing is in our blood lol), it's always within the letter of the rules otherwise, what's the point? Stops being a game when you make something stupid and it just becomes "telling stories of how awesome my character is".
Whipstitch
Meh, it all depends. Sometimes players can be a net benefit even if they do have a cheeseball streak. Some players (hell, some groups) just kinda find pulling one over on the GM sorta funny from time to time. And let's face it, for some of us the sessions aren't really about the game, per se. I've got some friends from high school who game with me and my brother every once in a blue moon and really whatever system we end up "playing" isn't really the centerpiece any more. It's mostly an exercise in seeing who can get me to facepalm the hardest as they pitch character sheet ideas, and then we drink too much, order pizza and catch up with each other. Good times and LOTS of munchkin sheets.
Redcrow
QUOTE (Lanlaorn @ Jun 28 2010, 04:25 AM) *
Well you get to pick the people you play with heh wink.gif While the folks I tend to hang out with are notorious min/maxers (we're all engineering grad students or in entry level engineering jobs so I suppose optimizing is in our blood lol), it's always within the letter of the rules otherwise, what's the point? Stops being a game when you make something stupid and it just becomes "telling stories of how awesome my character is".


I don't mind players min/maxing their characters at all. Those that do are usually quickly disappointed with their characters in my game because they focused so strongly in one or two areas and neglected others that their character isn't very good at all in 4 out of 5 situations. Any player in my game that focuses solely on combat (just for example) and doesn't take any sort of Infiltration or Social Skills is going to be quite bored for the majority of each session. With skills like Infiltration a team that needs to move together as a unit is really only as good as its weakest link.

What I do find a bit annoying however is that most of the pre-built NPCs I find are the opposite of min/maxed. Many seem barely competent for their role. I usually have to rebuild the NPCs I find just to make them a challenge for the PCs.
Cheops
The VCR has been massively dumbed down and the experience of it has completely changed. It used to be that you had to wire your brain specifically to "become" the vehicle and this was exclusive from other simulated realities. For instance, anyone could buy and use an RC deck but only in the captain's chair. To actually jump into the drones you had to have a VCR. Anyone could be a great driver, and usually the street sams WERE better drivers than the Rigger. But the Rigger was a better combat driver than the street sam because of the VCR.

In SR4 the VCR has been reduced to a +2 dice bonus. It offers zero additional benefit. You actually get more benefit from driving the vehicle in VR (1 hit) than using a VCR (2/3 hits). Also, VR now actually gives you the same simulated reality as the VCR used to do. Anyone with a commlink (ie. everyone) can now captain's chair drones. There's also a lot of overlap in the traditional rigger area. Riggers were your sigint and network security guys. The drone rigger in particular was heavy into the electronic warfare in a way that NO ONE else was. Now hackers live in a wireless world too and that overshadows another area of the rigger's specialty.

It isn't that a hacker = rigger. It is that the simulated reality of the two are now equal. VR = VCR. Anyone who can access VR can now be a rigger. Will they be as good as the "rigger" who focuses on being a "rigger." Fuck no. But at high Karma a hacker ~ rigger.

Is this a bad thing? Not necessarily. The riggers usually didn't bother with the EW because it was long and tedious. Now you can actually play with it (although it is still tedious and long). Lots of people hated Manuever Score so now we have our current pile of steaming shit.

************

Smartlinks and Datajacks: this is what Frank was getting at with the Ends of the Matrix that he did. I don't have a problem with that issue because it is easy to take away non-cyber stuff (hence why mages scare the crap out of the PTB). After my group got hit by tear gas the first time they learned that contact lenses = the suck. Goggles are good but can't be concealed.

************

Custom Spells: never really seen a point. There are so many good spells in the core books that mages don't usually ever earn enough karma to get everything they want. I suppose if you don't initiate or at the 200 karma mark your players will need this. No problem just template it.
Critias
QUOTE (Ol' Scratch @ Jun 27 2010, 09:50 PM) *
Yeah. It's really hard to grasp that a Rigger actuallys rigs a vehicle, usually via a Vehicle Control Rig. See ya.

...

Nevermind. Not worth it.
Ol' Scratch
Book definition of a Rigger.

"Riggers are a subset of hackers who focus on using and manipulating modern vehicles and drones."

SR4A p. 17. Your definition is your own, no matter how much you wish it wasn't.
BlueMax
QUOTE (Ol' Scratch @ Jun 28 2010, 07:44 AM) *
Book definition of a Rigger.

"Riggers are a subset of hackers who focus on using and manipulating modern vehicles and drones."

SR4A p. 17. Your definition is your own, no matter how much you wish it wasn't.

Yes, the rewritten history of SR4.
I do not recall said definition in my Big Blue Book and I sadly do not have it with me here at work.

But anyway, this thread is about human briefcase bombs known as Spellcasters who can take out tanks with their minds.

BlueMax
Warlordtheft
QUOTE (BlueMax @ Jun 28 2010, 12:50 PM) *
Yes, the rewritten history of SR4.
I do not recall said definition in my Big Blue Book and I sadly do not have it with me here at work.

But anyway, this thread is about human briefcase bombs known as Spellcasters who can take out tanks with their minds.

BlueMax


Actually they merged naturally over time. IIRC, in SR3 weren't there rules for Riggers taking over the security spiders system in a semi version of cybercombat?


Possible roles for mages based on spell selection, skills and conjuring:

Artillery
Sniper
Scout/infiltration
Face
Interrogator
Psycological warfare expert (illusions and mental manipulations)
Counter Magic
Force multiplication (via spirits)
Medic
Demolitions

But alot of these can be covered by others in the party too.
Doc Chase
Hah, I remember the actual Doc Chase, the character. He was a medic mage. I don't think I ever actually had to use the spell - his biotech group was so good that his medkit took care of everything before magic even had to come into play.
tagz
On the subject of custom spells, I've allowed them.

Typically they don't work out so well. Mostly because my players miss a detail or two about how magic works and they make a spell that turns out functionally worse then an existing spell.

For instance, a player made a spell called Void Object. This is what he came up with:

Void Object (Manipulation)
DV: (F/2)+4, Targeting: LOS, Type: Physical, Duration: Permanent
This spell removes a single object from existence. Objects may be no larger then Forcex2 in meters in diameter.

At first glance it seems really broken, but when you factor in Object Resistance and how permanent spells work... it becomes a non-elemental Ignite spell. Has the benefit of destroying it immediately rather then letting it burn to destruction, but the drain is higher and subsequently the number of turns it must be sustained longer. So basically, if the mage winked something gone, all it would take is breaking the mage's concentration (or geeking) before 24 seconds (minimum, not adding in force to beat OR yet) to make it wink back. Given the high drain code and speed of combat it couldn't be used too well for his intended purposes of making guns and armor disappear. He went a different way with the character. Has out of combat potential, but that wasn't what he was going for.

Really, most custom spells in my game have ended up like that. About the only ones that have worked well were the spells one character made that coated bullets in an elemental effect.
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