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wind_in_the_stones
Stupid question, I'm sure, but I can not find the page. How long does an unbound spirit stay around, if you don't use up its services?
Summerstorm
Normaly until dawn or dusk. But maybe other traditions (with some houseruling) could differ. But normaly you can only have a spirit for a night or the day.
wind_in_the_stones
I thought that's what it was, but then I started to wonder if it had switched to 12 hours. Thanks!

Anyone have a page reference for this?
Draco18s
QUOTE (wind_in_the_stones @ Jul 5 2010, 09:16 PM) *
I thought that's what it was, but then I started to wonder if it had switched to 12 hours. Thanks!


It's not "12 hours" but it probably should be. Summoning a spirit at 5pm just sucks (dusk at 5:20! biggrin.gif ).
Summerstorm
Oh, come on... what is the "mystical, magical" explanation for 12 hours? It's fine the way it is. Technomancer (GRRR oh, how i HATE them) at least have cold logical timer as their limit. But only 8 hours. So be grateful for your day/night of services *g*
Yerameyahu
Sometimes they can go all night, if the spirit is willing.
Dumori
QUOTE (Summerstorm @ Jul 6 2010, 02:47 AM) *
Oh, come on... what is the "mystical, magical" explanation for 12 hours? It's fine the way it is. Technomancer (GRRR oh, how i HATE them) at least have cold logical timer as their limit. But only 8 hours. So be grateful for your day/night of services *g*

But they only bind for 256 days not a year and a day...
tagz
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jul 6 2010, 02:57 AM) *
Sometimes they can go all night, if the spirit is willing.

I just had that "drum and cymbals sound effect when Leno makes a joke" go off in my head to that.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jul 5 2010, 07:57 PM) *
Sometimes they can go all night, if the spirit is willing.



Ohhhhh, that was horrid indeed! Pitiful Yerameyahu!!!!! wobble.gif

Keep the Faith
Dumori
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jul 6 2010, 02:57 AM) *

fixed it for you. Added a link to http://instantrimshot.com/
DireRadiant
QUOTE (wind_in_the_stones @ Jul 5 2010, 07:16 PM) *
I thought that's what it was, but then I started to wonder if it had switched to 12 hours. Thanks!

Anyone have a page reference for this?


p. 186 SR4A
"A spirit will perform the services it owes until
the next sunrise or sunset. At that time, regardless of any remaining
services or what it was doing, the spirit will depart and return to its
home deep in astral space."
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (DireRadiant @ Jul 6 2010, 08:56 AM) *
p. 186 SR4A
"A spirit will perform the services it owes until
the next sunrise or sunset. At that time, regardless of any remaining
services or what it was doing, the spirit will depart and return to its
home deep in astral space."


Which, Ironically, answers the question of whether Spirits are sentient creatures with a will of their own and a "Home" that they consider theirs; rather than the "Thought Constructs" which are used and abused because they are not really real, and have no will or personality... Looks like a lot of the Traditions are completely wrong in their views of Spirits after all... wobble.gif

Keep the Faith
Ol' Scratch
That or, as mentioned before, the fanboys-turned-freelancers of this edition decided to force their view of things into the rules. (That's the actual reason, by the way.)
Doc Byte
If a mage summons a spirit standing at the North Pole, will the spirit stay for half a year? biggrin.gif
Dumori
Could well.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Ol' Scratch @ Jul 6 2010, 09:19 AM) *
That or, as mentioned before, the fanboys-turned-freelancers of this edition decided to force their view of things into the rules. (That's the actual reason, by the way.)


Regardless of how it got there, it is RAW... I know that not everyone will agree with it, but the argument of whether it is RAW or not is irrelevant at that point... wobble.gif

Keep the Faith
Jaid
QUOTE (Doc Byte @ Jul 6 2010, 01:23 PM) *
If a mage summons a spirit standing at the North Pole, will the spirit stay for half a year? biggrin.gif

well, no. but it would stay until sunrise or sunset... it's just that sunrise/sunset isn't literally half a year, even on the north pole. it *does* get significantly longer at some point (provided you summon during the longer portion of the day) but for most of the year, there actually is *some* day/night cycle. even if the day (or night) is only half an hour long, that would still be enough to reset the spirit's services.
Draco18s
QUOTE (Jaid @ Jul 6 2010, 02:51 PM) *
well, no. but it would stay until sunrise or sunset... it's just that sunrise/sunset isn't literally half a year, even on the north pole. it *does* get significantly longer at some point (provided you summon during the longer portion of the day) but for most of the year, there actually is *some* day/night cycle. even if the day (or night) is only half an hour long, that would still be enough to reset the spirit's services.


Ahem.

QUOTE (Wikipedia: Arctic Circle)
The Arctic Circle marks the southern extremity of the polar day (24-hour sunlit day, often referred to as the "midnight sun") and polar night (24-hour sunless night). North of the Arctic Circle, the sun is above the horizon for 24 continuous hours at least once per year and below the horizon for 24 continuous hours at least once per year. On the Arctic Circle those events occur, in principle, exactly once per year, at the June and December solstices, respectively.


QUOTE (Wikipedia: North Pole: Day and Night)
At the North Pole, the sun is permanently above the horizon during the summer months and permanently below the horizon during the winter months. Sunrise is just before the vernal equinox (around March 19); the sun then takes three months to reach its highest point of about 23 elevation at the summer solstice (around June 21), after which time it begins to sink, reaching sunset just after the autumnal equinox (around September 24). When the sun is visible in the polar sky, it appears to move in a clockwise circle above the horizon. This circle gradually rises from near the horizon just after the vernal equinox to its maximum elevation (in degrees) above the horizon at summer solstice and then sinks back toward the horizon before sinking below it at the autumnal equinox.
Yerameyahu
There is still a daily high point and a low point, right?
Draco18s
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jul 6 2010, 03:20 PM) *
There is still a daily high point and a low point, right?


No. The sun only "gets higher" until mid-June. It does, however, move in a circle around you (and always in the south, mind!).
Yerameyahu
Wacky. Well, GMT. biggrin.gif
Ol' Scratch
QUOTE
North of the Arctic Circle, the sun is above the horizon for 24 continuous hours at least once per year and below the horizon for 24 continuous hours at least once per year. On the Arctic Circle those events occur, in principle, exactly once per year, at the June and December solstices, respectively.

Emphasis mine. So one day a year you might get away with making the argument if you're there during the solstices.
Jaid
hmmm... fair enough. i suppose as long as you stay directly on the pole (or reasonably close to it) you're good to go. have fun with the aleuts.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Ol' Scratch @ Jul 6 2010, 12:29 PM) *
Emphasis mine. So one day a year you might get away with making the argument if you're there during the solstices.


Looks like you missed the next section on being AT the NORTH POLE, and not at the Arctic Circle... 6 months of sun, then 6 months of Darkness... Me personally, I think that would suck myself, but that is just me... Besides, I would just regulate spirit duration by the Body's Circadian Rythm at that point (even if it does get a bit wacked out at that point)... lose the spirit when you go to sleep...

Keep the Faith
stevebugge
QUOTE (Ol' Scratch @ Jul 6 2010, 11:29 AM) *
Emphasis mine. So one day a year you might get away with making the argument if you're there during the solstices.


Which might just be why ancient cultures used those days for important rituals vegm.gif
Ol' Scratch
And you missed the part where the mage would have to stay at the North Pole for the entire duration.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Ol' Scratch @ Jul 6 2010, 12:38 PM) *
And you missed the part where the mage would have to stay at the North Pole for the entire duration.


Did not miss it... just ignored it as a pain for the Mage... notice I did say that it would suck to be there the entire time... wobble.gif

Just wanted to point it out, since you can have a spirit summoned for 6 months with no binding, it is just not all that useful in my opinion...

No Worries though... wobble.gif

Keep the Faith
Draco18s
See, what I'd do is summon/bind a spirit at the north pole, ask it to define "how long a long term service lasts" ("a year and a day") and have it define a year ("365 sunsets") and then task it with a long term service* and leave. "Oh, and I only really need 50 sunsets. You're free after that."

It'd be a really Spirit Abuse thing to do, of course, but HILARIOUS.

*Notably one that wouldn't require that I be nearby or have the spirit leave the pole.
Yerameyahu
Have to be a pretty stupid spirit to use sunsets. smile.gif
Draco18s
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jul 6 2010, 03:47 PM) *
Have to be a pretty stupid spirit to use sunsets. smile.gif


Well yeah. But like I said, it'd be funny.
Lanlaorn
Wait guys, on the year and a day thing, only "long term service" (from street magic) where you pay karma and release a spirit from normal binding (and thus your bound spirit limit) lasts a year and a day. Regular binding is forever (or until the Mage dies).
Draco18s
QUOTE (Lanlaorn @ Jul 6 2010, 06:07 PM) *
Wait guys, on the year and a day thing, only "long term service" (from street magic) where you pay karma and release a spirit from normal binding (and thus your bound spirit limit) lasts a year and a day. Regular binding is forever (or until the Mage dies).


I do believe I am aware of that, thanks. You missed the part about getting a long term service (just one) to last 360 years due to creative interpretation of "day."
Doc Byte
Btw, which time's relevant? Local time or the place of summoning? What about globe hopping ahead of sunset?
Draco18s
QUOTE (Doc Byte @ Jul 6 2010, 09:40 PM) *
Btw, which time's relevant? Local time or the place of summoning? What about globe hopping ahead of sunset?


"Service? Oh yes. I want you to run west as fast as you can and let me know just before sunset (or dawn, if it comes to it) how many times around the world you went."
wind_in_the_stones
QUOTE (DireRadiant @ Jul 6 2010, 10:56 AM) *
p. 186 SR4A
"A spirit will perform the services it owes until
the next sunrise or sunset. At that time, regardless of any remaining
services or what it was doing, the spirit will depart and return to its
home deep in astral space."


Thanks, Dire. Man, I looked everywhere for that. *points to sig*

As for the new topic, I'm sure I read in canon where it specifically said that spirits last til the natural sunrise north of the arctic circle. Third edition? Just don't ask me for a page ref...
aspect
pg 165 of Arsenal, under Polar Magic. "The lengthened periods of day and ngiht can be a boon for conjurers. Summoned spirits will stay on hand until the next sunrise or sunset, even if that is weeks away."
Draco18s
QUOTE (aspect @ Jul 15 2010, 08:19 PM) *
pg 165 of Arsenal, under Polar Magic. "The lengthened periods of day and ngiht can be a boon for conjurers. Summoned spirits will stay on hand until the next sunrise or sunset, even if that is weeks away."


Frakking awesome.
Cabral
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jul 5 2010, 08:57 PM) *
Sometimes they can go all night, if the spirit is willing.

... but the fleshform is weak...
Laodicea
RAW says to keep a spirit beyond sunrise or sunset uses up one owed service. If this causes you to run out of services, the spirit leaves.
tagz
QUOTE (Laodicea @ Jul 16 2010, 08:17 PM) *
RAW says to keep a spirit beyond sunrise or sunset uses up one owed service. If this causes you to run out of services, the spirit leaves.

Could you give a page quote on that one? Cause that directly contradicts the first paragraph of Spirit Services on SR4A p 186. That would be an interesting bit of rule interpretation if they have both statements as RAW.
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