I think it is something they put in 4a (I don't have 4a) and is likely an optional rule. I've heard various DP caps, including a flat cap of 20 and a cap of 2*(skill + attribute), but like I said, think they are optional.

My SR4 book doesn't say anything about DP caps either on skills in general or social skills in particular (Besides of course the skill max of 1.5, but hardly anything falls into that category)

Yeap, the general dicepool cap is an optional rule, then they also included a cap of atribute+skill for social modifiers.

The part about the social modifiers that gets argued about, of course, is whether social skill modifiers that are NOT on the table on page 131 should be subject to the dice pool cap.

Some feel they ALL should, and point out that the table on page 131 is only a listing of SOME of the possible social skill modifiers. Which would include "invisible" modifiers such as Empathy software, pheromones, etc.

Others feel that the examples given in that chapter are all circumstance driven, stuff other people see and hear, personal prejudices, etc, and as such believe the rules intent is for the cap to only apply to modifiers similar to the examples. Which would exclude "invisible" modifiers such as Empathy software, pheromones, etc.


-karma

No Sniping involved, simply answering a question... Programs only run on Devices with Program allowances, thus the Device Rating, so Comlink or Nexus, nothing else will suffice. Therefore, if a Drone can run a program (which they can), they must have a Device Rating... ergo a Comlink... same with a Vehicle, or weapon, your toaster, or whatever... So, I am back to what I said eralier... anything with a Device Rating can run a Program; Thus, any Thing with a Device Rating therefore has a Comlink/Nexus "like" interface somewhere in the system, complete with System and Response Ratings (Thus the term Device Rating, as those attributes are equal to the Device Rating)...

So there you go...
Take that how you will, I am done arguing with you about it...

If that's the case, what's preventing me from running Empathy Software on a Rating 6 Furby and effectively having an emotitoy?

Simple, if it is a Furby Emotitoy, it does not exist in my game, if it is a Drone, you could attempt to do that, but don't expect to ever get any real use out of it, as the Fixer would never hire you for a job again after the first time you pulled it out and placed it on the table (After all, his reputation is on the line as well you know)... Plain Enough?

As for Sensor Packages and Covert Drones/Security Systems, this is where I see the greatest use for Empathy Software (ALL Sensor Software honestly), as these applications are what the SENSOR SOFTWARE is actually designed for in the first place...

We are going to agree here, and I am okay with that... Have a great game...

That's one expensive furby. 8,000¥ @ availability 16 just for the response. Another 3,000¥ @ availability 16 for the system. Compared to 600¥ for an Emotitoy. Feels like a big difference to me.

A furby (or Bust-A-Move) *is* a drone. You can load Empathy software onto either, and have an emotitoy, Heck, you can put it onto a teddy bear and end up with the same, since everything has a Device Rating.

Personally, I think that if it means you have a better game, then go for it! Fun is what's important, after all. There's no shame in adopting house rules to better your game-- quite the reverse, in fact.

I don't have the books handy, but can't you just cluster your clothing, or a bunch of RFID tags? Besides which, rating 6 devices don't necessarily cost 11,000 . A rating 6 Medkit, for example, costs much less than that.

Yes you can, you can use a Bust a Move, which as pointed out is not a cheap endeavor, and is one that I would allow, because it does not cost you 600 Nuyen... and still, if you plop one down in front of a Johnson in my games, you will not only be laughed out of the club (or wherever), as well as the Johnson likely choosing to not do business with your team, but word will likely get back to your Fixer, who will likely not use you any longer... Simple and Elegant... and reinforces the fact that the Empathy Software is designed for Sensors (Yes, You can use them in a Drone) that are less than obvious...

AS I said, we will not agree on this matter...

Indeed it does, but a Medkit is not a Sensor System inherently... and even if you outfitted the Medical Drone with Empathy Software, it aint going to do a whole lot of good for patrching up a character... Whip one of those out in a meet and see how far you get...

Yes, You could indeed purchase a Small Sensor Camera, Ramp it up to Rating 6 and install the Empathy Software (or hell, just build one yourself), and you know what? I would accept that... after all, it is performing its intended purpose, and is likely discreet... there is a far cry difference between a near invisible sensor tag, and a Emotitoy in my book. A Book from which the Emotitoy has been removed...

You are confusing equipment rating with device rating. I already pointed this out. Goggles 6 and Medkit 6 have a rating of 6, which is entirely different from a device rating of 6. Kind of like bullets and stim patches are entirely different things. One has no relationship what-so-ever to the other.

This would still cost the 11k + 3k, see my above post.

Agreed, unless you built it yourself, which could then cost as little as half that... Dependant upon the rules in place at the table...

And take like a year to build, right?

Yeah, a software + logic (12,6 months) test for the system, but only a Hardware + Logic (12, 1 day) check for the response... does that seem a little quick to you? I mean the person is essentially building their own CPU/Motherboard.

Any good programmer can gin up a Rating 6 System in about 6 Weeks of dedicated work, possibly less (not counting a dedicated team of programmers)... Spend an Edge to 1/2 the Time (6 Months to 3 Months), and then Rush Job (3 Months to 6 Weeks) and a Programming Environment (6 Weeks to 3 Weeks), So a programming Interval of 3 Weeks with a Threshold of 12... Precludes spending Edge on the Success Test, but who cares... with all cylinders running, that would be about 18 Dice or so for My Cyberlogician, so 2 Increments average (3 if I bought Successes), possible in one though, with lucky rolls...

And a few days to create the circuitry for the Response Chip... Easy Peasy...

I still don't think you're meant to be allowed to halve the interval three times, but that's another thread.

Yeah... it is a bit excessive, but you pay for it by having Glitches come up on 1's and 2's... and not being able to spend an Edge to Reroll failures...

It works out not as bad as it seems, because you still need to dedicate the time... and very few 'Runners have 8 hours/day for 6 weeks to do this...

anyways...

Is there guidance in the books about that '8hrs/day' thing, by the way? Sometimes people ask about it ('what if I don't sleep?', etc.).

None that I am aware of, unfortunately... that Sleep Regulator would be a very good investment in that capacity... program for 8 Hours/Day, Run/Party for an additional 13 Hours/Day, and then sleep for 3 hours... Rinse and repeat... Best Bioware on the Market...

@ 100 a day. That's 2100 just for the facility. What's 3 weeks of your lifestyle going to cost?

Plus, it'll still degrade 1 level per 2 months. But, still another thread. ;D

Irrelevant, as the character is paid up for a while, and has ample funds to absorb it if need be... Assume 5,000 - 10,000 for an Average hacker (which he could spoof easily)... and the Programming Environment is peanuts compared to buying that Rating 6 System outright...

2100 for the environment, 3000 to buy the system outright. (rating * 500, pg 232). The bought system doesn't degrade. Unless the environment and lifestyle expenses are ignored, I'd just pay the money for the system.

You are paying the lifestyle costs regardless, and a Programming Environment is just so very useful, assuming you can find one that you can purchase time on that is...

Either way, it's all good...

Purchase time? If a hacker is going through the trouble of making their own OS, do you really think they'll purchase time on anything?

I do... not sure about anyone else...
Eventually, I will have my own Programming Environment, but not yet...
That is the next thing on my list...

Below is the text from both the header .. and the sensor software just for the record

Sensor Software
With the computing power available in 2070, there’s a lot
you can achieve when you hook up a dedicated sensor system to a
tailored software package. the following software is of particular
use to shadowrunners.

Empathy: Empathy software is designed for use with
standard video/trideo cameras, carefully analyzing the behav-
ioral patterns of the subject to ascertain mood, interest, and so
on. Empathy sot ware can be used to make a Judge Intentions Test
(see p. 130, SR4) for emotional status using its rating as the dice
pool. It does not detect falsehoods; that’s the realm of lie detection
sot ware. Empathy sot ware can be discreetly used in real time dur-
ing negotiations or social interactions, adding its rating as a dice
pool bonus to the character’s Social skill tests.

now by the reading of this you Must have a camera ...

I highly doubt that Device rating is the Limiter for these tho I see the argument

now ... when I read into the emotitoy I see this Segment

Shadowrunners have also embraced the emotitoy craze,
bringing their “friends” along to meets to get an edge during ne-
gotiations, using the toy’s sensors and empathy software to get a
read on the other side.

Then I Look at the stats of the Emotitoy ... hey Look ... Drone Stats

now ... I know its a MASSIVE Stretch ... but .... Look at where the sensor software is Located in Arsenal .... right after

SENSORS
these devices follow all of the standard rules given for sensors
on p. 325, SR4. (or 334 SR$A)

the way it Looks to me .... is this is a Software upgrade to a Senor package for Drones ..... not a commlink program

Each vehicle and drone has a Sensor rating that acts as an
abstract composite of all of the sensors in the vehicle combined.
this Sensor rating should be used for most situations.

Also I am not seeing a Location to upgrade your sensor rating anywhere other than take the average of all sensor systems and round up

now this is a Software Program that Looks for Specific things when its used ... (we've already heard about the facial sculpting stuff)
and by the description of the Software "is designed for Trideo and video cameras"


and This Debate has been enlightening IMHO as I had someone ask me about plugging this into the Radar Sensor from pg. 36 of augmentation

No, that doesn't make sense. It's a program. It's run on a Matrix device.

Note that for the above post by Wraith235, a cybereye is, for all intents and purposes, a camera.

Note that programs run on almost anything. I'm not sure there is a difference between a drone and a security camera and a cyberlimb. Everything has a response, system, and system rating.

Even soda machines are matrix devices.
http://www.ucc.guild.uwa.edu.au/cgi-bin/finger?coke

Yes, a camera is a camera is a camera. It doesn't matter if it's in a smartgun, a drone, or a freestanding sensor package. A cybereye fills the same function in this context (but I wouldn't say it's the same for *all* intents and purposes).

Peripheral devices might not run software outside of their intended purpose, however; a cyberlimb doesn't make sense running sensor software.

You can look at it this way: everything is a matrix device. If it's got a Device Rating, it can run programs, and everything has a Device Rating. You can run Black IC on your underwear now.

But only at rating 1

Lie Detection is sensor software. A cyberlimb running lie detection makes perfect sense to me. Place your cyberhand over the brachial artery measuring arterial pressure, pulse, and temperature and let the software do it's thing.

If there's anything that doesn't make sense about it, it's that most sensor software is visual and we think of cyberlimbs as not seeing. (That being said, I find the thought of a rigger with fingertip cameras to be fascinating.) But the lack of cameras has nothing to do with the cyberlimb having a processor and an operating system. Everything it needs to run the software, it has built into it.

My phone runs Adobe Acrobat. (It also functions as a GPS, a level, and a stud finder*.) From the perspective of just a few years ago, that makes as little sense as a cyberlimb running Empathy software. My router and bridge in my house both run Linux (DD-WRT). The Canon Hack Development Kit (CHDK) allows a wide variety of scripts to run on my camera.

* http://pdk.android.com/online-pdk/guide/sensors.html - Android comes with a Magnetic Field sensor. It works great for finding studs in walls.

*Peripheral* nodes are supposed to run programs within their intended purpose; that doesn't seem to fit Lie Detection for a cyberlimb. If you want them to be general-purpose, cluster them. Your phone is a commlink; a general-purpose, standard-node, Matrix device. It is not a peripheral node. DD-WRT is just a router option; it's no less a router than before, and it's not running WoW or something. Your Canon has been *hacked*, and it's still 95% camera, 5% calendar; a Peripheral device, but that's not 2070.

Lie Detection, indeed, seems to be a camera function (bonus for thermo), but if you have people letting you wrap your metal hand around their arm during conversation, more power to you.

Cain, that's my point. He was saying something about how sensor software is *only* for drones, which didn't make sense. It's much more general.

In short a Peripheral node is a device rating 1 item (Sample Devices Table).

However, all devices appear to use very standardized processors.

Note that the availability rating of the processor is the only hassle (i.e. you actually have to look, though any schmuck could find a low level one in a week or so). The upgrades aren't restricted. They don't need a shop, a facility, or even a roll to install. There's nothing indicating you can't increase the response of a simple camera other than the + 2 limitation. The page clearly indicates you can upgrade the response and system of :General appliances, bodyware, public terminals (might be interesting), entertainment systems, standard personal electronics, headware, vehicles, drones, home/business terminals, security vehicles, alphaware, research terminals, security devices, betaware, security terminals, and military vehicles.

No one's arguing that you can't increase the response of a peripheral node by +2. No need to support that obvious position.

But that in no way contradicts their peripheral quality: "can only run programs they are designed to use". This *may* mean that a camera (or other sensor) can run (low-rating) sensor software as a sort of on-board option. Certainly, your modded Canon can perform some basic image-processing tricks, in addition to the stock ones (color alteration, anti-shake, etc.). Cyberlimb lie detector? Perhaps not. Black IC underwear? Incidentally, the fact that all Response chips cost the same and have the same availability doesn't imply that they're the same exact ('standardized') chip. It's just generalized in the rules, as wildly different programs of the same rating have the same costs and availability within categories.

Actually, after careful reading of the pages in question, there's nothing suggesting that something with a Device Rating must be a peripheral node. So, we get two categories of Devices: Peripheral Nodes, and standard Devices. Both follow their own rules, although there is some overlap. You can still get a Rating 6 Device for cheap, slap Empathy Software into it, and get an edge in Negotiations.

No, you cannot. I keep saying on this thread and everyone keeps ignoring me that a rating 6 device is not the same as a device with a Device Rating of 6. A rating 6 device has a Device Rating equal to what kind of thing it is. So rating 6 goggles have a Device Rating of 3 (Personal Electronics). Rating 1 goggles also have a Device Rating of 3 because they are still Personal Electronics.

I think common sense suggests it. The rules give examples, not exhaustive lists. I think there's significantly less evidence of a 'standard device' category. The problem is some cases of contradictory and unclear rules across multiple books. The best question to ask is, 'is it too good to be true?' or 'does this interpretation totally avoid a limitation?'

That is also true, Karoline, but even if we're talking about the vaunted 'Deltaware Datajack' having a device rating of 6, it still doesn't necessarily make sense for, say, a cyberlimb to be a non-peripheral (standard, =commlink) node.

you are Correct ...

and after a Lot of digging ... a Trideo camera at a rating 6 can support the software ...

That said

Sensor Ratings are the "AVERAGE" Rating of All Sensors on board the device


Example ... Rating 6 Camera / Rating 1 Microphone / Rating 1 MAD would be a Rating 3 Sensor (6+1+1 = 8/3 Round up = 3) .... and can still be uploaded with the software because the camera is beefy enough to accomidate the software

This Software is tied to a DEDICATED Sensor .... which means ... that its Job is to run the software ....

and yes Cyber eyes are effectivly a camera .... as is an Occular Drone .... however Glasses / Contacts and the Like are not they are Imaging Devices ... you could certinally Add a camera to those devices

Camera's are Sensors ... with the Quote "See visual enhancments and Imaging devices"

again ... this is a sensor software ... therefore must be tied into a Sensor ... more importantly a Video/Trideo Sensor otherwise known as a Camera

now when I said this isnt a Program .... I am using the Game systems definition of what a program is ... as per Wireless World in SR4A .... which this is not ....
"In order to interact with the matrix you need to use Programs" This Software does not interact with the matrix therefore its not a program via Game definition
it takes Video / Trideo taken from the Meat World and Runs Sub routines to Analyze Body language / facial expressions ect. pointing out Markers which give you the bonus Dice

now after all of this .... I see 2 different ways of running this ....

1) if you wanted to plug this into cybereyes / comlinks ect then yes ... you would need a Response to support a rating 6 program

OR 2)if you were to plug this into a device with a dedicated camera ....Occular Drone ect ... with the Camera Sensor channel upgraded to a 6 and then plug the software into the camera feed itsself (which BTW is the only way I can see the emotitoys Not breaking the the rules to such a degree of absurdity)


and I know that there are going to be many ppl saying that this isnt the way it works ... I then challange you .. to explain to me ... how a Rating 6 software can exist in emotitoys since A they are not device rating 6 .... and B only a 3 sensor ..... without the Statement "Because thats how its designed" or anything like that ...

No, Wraith. Karoline specifically addressed that. A Camera 6 is *not* a rating 6 Matrix device (that is, 'computer'). It doesn't have a rating 6 response chip.

Sensor software, as I said before, is software. Your use of the 'definition' doesn't make any sense. Sensor software uses a sensor feed, and that's all. It doesn't (necessarily) run *on* sensors, and it certainly doesn't run on them using their *sensor* rating. You can use Empathy software with a Camera 1.

Neither is it limited in any way to drones, which are the *only* things that use the averaged Sensor Rating.

As for your 'challenge' (it's very novel to be challenged to help someone understand ), maybe the Emotitoy has an Ergonomic version, or maybe, yes, it *is* specifically designed to run that software at that rating. Perhaps it has a dedicated hardware chip for it.

Just to be clear, I fully support Karoline on this. It doesn't matter what your device is rated at. What matters is what your device rating is. (and ain't that confusing). Buy something with a device rating of 4 or more, get it's response and signal up to 6 (not cheap) and you can run empathy 6 on it.

The rating (1-6) of the device is a measure of how good that device is with respect to other devices that do the same thing.

The device rating is a measure of the response, signal, system, and firewall.

Two different measurements with too similar names.

Yeah, the SYSTEM RATING of the device is what limits software.

Forget the "device rating", really. That's a confusing term.

• Most simple appliances like coffeemakers are System Rating 1
• Dumb terminals and Trid systems are mostly System Rating 2
• Standard consumer computing devices, vehicles, & implants are System Rating 3
• Security vehicles, professional devices, & alphaware are System Rating 4
• High end mainframes and betaware are System Rating 5
• Deltaware and Credsticks are System Rating 6

Most of these can have their System software upgraded by two as long as you also upgrade the Response rating. (Response limits System)

Oddly, you can take a credstick, link a camera to it, and it will run Empathy 6 software just fine.



-karma

Unless you GM quite understandamply rules that running sensor softwares is not what credsticks are made to do.

I suspect the "peripheral node" rule may well come into play on a credstick as it's a device that
a) Is broken as far as costs are concerned if you're running your rating 6 software on it.
b) Is exactly the type of device the builders wouldn't want ANY other software running on.

Credstick are not computers
they are very specialized items with a rating so you can have some rules for trying to copy them.

The credstick peripheral node rules are in the book, and their response is minimal. And they're peripheral, which means, again, that they don't run software they're not designed for.

Ah, right, sorry.

You can still cluster them, though, no?



-karma

No: the Response of a cluster is the average of the nodes' Responses, and the System is the lowest among all nodes. You can cluster as many nodes as you want, they will never allow you to run a program that one of the single nodes could not run on its own.