/end debate

No need for cutting. There already is a pistol-sized grenade launcher: ArmTech MGL-6
And it's got 6 shots instead of one.
A stockless M79 would be a helluva sidearm for a troll though.

I only suggest it for the 'one shot' aspect. A '79 is classy.

I gotta agree with the Doc. I'd find a troll with Bloop Gun to be a hell of a lot more stylish and intimidating than just a basic MGL-6. The lack of ammo would be made up for in pure awesome.

In answer to the OP:

I had this character in my last game. Maybe not down to the specific *ways* he had the die pool, but he had 24 dice with his handguns. Here are the issues that came up when he was playing:

1) He could punch holes in all kinds of people real easy-like, but the mechanical benefit of having that many dice wasn't damage as much as keeping people on full dodge from getting out of the way entirely. Other PCs could equal his damage output with long bursts and big rifles, but in the face of dedicated defenders they'd miss, and he wouldn't. The overall damage output on a standard target was about the same, however.
For instance, 24 dice, less 4 for a +4 DV, means a usual final damage value of 14, assuming the passive defenders score an average of 3 successes on their dodge and wear no armor. Assuming average armor, we can drop this final damage to 11P (8 ballistic armor, average of 2.66 successes, which we'll round up to 3). That's pretty awesome. But is it significantly more awesome than the guy with 15 dice using a long narrow burst, whose final DV will be 10P? Not really, although you sure as hell blow through less ammo.

2) Anyone engaging him at significant range basically ended up screwing him over. 50 meters for max range will *really* hobble a character any time he's not engaging in CQB. Admittedly, most runners are going to be inside buildings where extended range isn't an issue, but when it bites you, it bites you hard. So carry a backup weapon that's longer range.

3) It's really an expensive one-trick pony. There are cheaper ways to be a murder machine, or ways to be MORE of a murder machine with similarly expended points. It ended up boring the PC because he'd sunk so many points into being Captain Pistol Master that he really neglected most everything else.

Hear hear, Adarael. God invented burst fire for a reason.

Yeah, but the fact is, I am using 20 dice to hit for a DV of 10P. And the guy with a long narrow burst is using 10 dice to hit for a DV of 10P. Against an defender with 8 Armor/4 Body. My average of successes are going to be 6. His are going to be 3. Not to mention what if I was using a Ares Predator with SA to FA conversion. So now its 9P and I am doing +5 DV for my long burst.

This gives me a total of 15 dice to hit with a guaranteed 14P for my damage. Any net successes over the armor and body are just gravy.

Or I could just do a called shot, to ignore armor. Take a -8 Penalty from Ballistic armor. Fire a 10P long burst. And now I get to roll 16 Dice vs your 4 Body.

*Just remember, if you can fire a long burst. So can I!



This is true. Who says we have to use a Pistol? I mean.. I could use an Igram White Knight or something else. Doesn't really matter if I am a pistol master, or a assault rifle master.



This is true also. But if one is going for a specific character concept, and wishes to buff out there resume. Thats what Karma is for.

Not sure if anyone's pointed this out, but that doesn't work, due to how Augmented Skill Caps work - 9's the max, no matter how you get there, unless you have Aptitude, then its 7/10.

You can buy a Drilling nowadays (For exhorbitant Prices of course), which is 3 Barrels... 2 (Side By Side) and 1 (Centered Beneath)...

Once upon a time I would have been horrified by the '20+ dice' attacker. Nowadays, from gaming encounters and experience, from both sides of the table, I don't really mind it as much.

As noted, sinking all your focus into an alpha strike can be useful, until you run into a situation where the alpha strike isn't going to be effective. Then such characters tend to find their difficulty in trying another approach (due to less investment of skill, gear, augmentation, etc) can make them less than successful. Also, once the realization occurs to players that if its 'legal' (game mechanics) wise for them to do something, isn't it a little odd that no one else has thought up the same idea? Sometimes you don't even HAVE to directly confront them with a NPC with similar alpha-doom build, the fear and uncertainty that there are likely NPCs and foes out there with the same idea and perhaps better backing, makes them start thinking of what their defensive options are.

Since the subject was brought up....

Eichiro Hatamoto II with Underbarrel Eichiro Hatamoto II

Fair enough. You're paying for it. However: can a pistol *have* underbarrel weapons? Ah, found it: 'generally' longarms only, and +4 Conceal.

Can't be done. Looked in to that one. best you can do is addtional clip with extened clip. assuming you additional the extend clip number you get 4 shots if not buy it once more for the 4 shots I guess you could over modd for more but I find electronic fiering is a better investment RC plus a reason why you can have 2 rounds stacked in a chamber.

Key thing put a weapons comlink in it with an agent that will spend its free action to swap clips over when empty. Agenting smart guns is just a good idea if done well you can let some things be scripted clip runs dry auto ejects ect. Has a few negatives so if it really matter you can turn it off if running dual clip or a nimble fingered adept the auto ejecting clip will have no issues as you can use your free action to reload in fact the fact they think you are out of ammo could help you a tad.

It seems clear that *that* gun can't have additional or extended clips, but other pistols can get some impressive total loads from those.

Since someone brought up a shotgun pistol, its worth mentioning that the German Arsenal 2070 has a shotgun pistol called the 'Altmayr SP'. Its got 7 shots(m) @ 7p ap-1 in singleshot. Might be worth using.

This Chargen spreadsheet has stats for it, and the other german goodies in it as well. You'll need to use the Format/Sheet/Show to unhide the data sheet to look at -all- the stats.

I'm with everyone who says Shotgun/SMG > *pistol.

Only option makes pistols worthwhile is the Raecor Sting, on account of its low availability, high concealability, and how it's undetectable by MAD scanners. It's death in a tiny invisible package.. Great for corporate gigs.
Call shot for 10p +hits. The +5 AP bites, but your average suit doesn't have much in the way of Impact armor to overcome... Most Impact protection guy can get while wearing corp-style duds is 4 (well, a bodyguard will likely have about 10 after PPP and FFBA.) So, unless you're trying to pump one into a heavy, it should break past their modified armor easy enough. Apply your average of 5 net hits and you're putting Johnny Sportcoat on his ass like it's a regular thing. Pure James bond. Can't really get this any cheaper or any easier.

Otherwise, go for Automatics. Machine Pistols, SMGs and Assault Rifles. Oh my.

where does the great dice pool reduction come from? Why doesn't the burst guy use recoil compensation? Let's take a moderately specialized AR build
10 AGI (for example Elf base 6 Muscle toner 4)
6 skill
+2 specialization
+3 Improved ability
+2 Smartlink
=23
I know you can go higher but for the sake of comparison let's say the only difference is the skill and weapon used.

In FA you can't use called shots so no extra DV, but you can easily get 5 RC in a two-handed weapon (GasVent 3., Underbarrel Weight, Shockpad)

so this is a DP of 23 and a base DV 11P AP -1, you could aim though for another +1 to the DP or you could take another short burst at -3 dice. With certain weapons and mods you can reduce that penalty to 0.
With the same setup you could also use BF and use the called shot for DV 12P AP -1, or by silly RAW DV 10 AP -1 and -2 to the target's defense pool.

Don't forget even without other gimmicks (improved range finder for example) you only incur range penalties beyond 50m, with pistols it's beyond 5m.

You can get way more than 5 RC trivially on an assault rifle.

+2 = Foregrip + Sling or Foregrip + Shockpad
+1 = Personalized Grip
+3 = GasVent 3
+1 = Heavy Barrel or Str 6 (cyberhand(s) you shoot with will do this)
+2 = Ares Alpha (assuming you're a clever gunbunny)

Edit: Also don't forget that Krav Maga let's you 'lock onto' targets at range with a Free Action. Also, with a full burst you have no reason to call a shot, so that's means you can do all this awful in a single action phase. Hurrah for gunbunnies!

Edit2: Also, concealability-wise, an assault rifle isn't too bad. Cut down the barrel for a -1, remove the stock for another -1 (house rule), put it on a sling (-2 when not-ready) and then put it under a lined coat (-2 again). You're at 0 or +1 concealability.

For mundanes, there's always cyber for RC. Cyberlimb Gyromounts in each hand. Anchors in each foot.
As an Adept you just use Heightened Concentration to ignore ALL RC penalties up to your Magic rating. Pure madness.

You'll be shooting High Velocity 12 round bursts in no time at all. Do it as a double target - double long burst and you can take four dudes down in a single pass. Everybody gets a little love.

I know, i just didn't want to do something too optimized. RC from high strength is an optional rule so this may not work. A heavy barrel only works on full bursts.

Not necessarily true. You can fire a long burst, but A) I don't think you can do an SA to FA conversion, just SA to BF. I could be misremembering 3rd ed rules and assuming they're the same in 4th, though. Even if you can, though, it's *much* easier to use FA with a rifle, due to recoil compensation being more available for long arms. And also, it's not "called shot, ignore armor", it's "suffer a 1-die penalty per point of armor you ignore." Increasing DV is better, mechanically, than ignoring armor - unless you're dealing with hardened armor.

At the end of the day, adept pistol-slingers are MUCH less broken than other things you can do in the game. I am far from horrifed by it because hey, that's what adepts are *supposed* to do. Even if that horrifies you, you can easily make a Street Sam that is exactly identical, aside from lacking the Improved Ability dice, at base. He can have a mage cast Enhance Aim on him. Or make a rigger and have less dice, but 3-4 drones that'll ruin your day.

Shooting guys well is an awesome skill to have, but it's not some holy grail that adepts grossly outstrip anyone else in. And anything awesome PCs can do, so can the opposition. Hell, 20+ die physads are basically what I figure Tir Ghost units are *made of*.

Yeah, Agility+Skill to kill people isn't a very flexible specialization. Personally, I "settle" for 15 dice or so on most of my gun fighters and pick up a few other tricks as well.




And the Morrissey Élan is even better. No MAD scanners, and most importantly, it's semi-auto standard and the only ammo restrictriction is flechette rounds. If you don't want to dip into Palming the Élan loaded with stick and shock should be your constant companion. Hell, I even had one with a chameleon coating once. And even if your GM isn't a stick and shock fan the Pistols skill still nets you access to tasers.

n/a

Both is possible in SR4 and Both mods cost the same amount of slots, 4. Going from BF to FA and vice versa is a lot easier.
Not according to the BBB. None are awakened and they all have a DP of 15

Yeah, well, I think we can safely ignore the way they stat out Ghosts in the BBB. They've varied pretty wildly over the editions, but they're always supposed to have been some of the most insanely nasty black ops troops in the world.

If you prefer, insert your own team type of choice, though: Firewatch, Jaguar Warriors, Red Samurai, Drop Bear.

I don't think you can. 14 across the entire Stealth group isn't exactly awful, and they combine that with a 13 across the entire Firearms group. They're like a more well-round Street Samurai, really, and since that's just the grunt rules it's not really touching on things like professional and non-combat/non-social skills. I think it's pretty safe to assume that they'd do just fine in say, a wilderness survival situation even if they're not statted as such. They could use some embellishment, sure, but then, I never really fell into the "All spec ops guys should automagically toast any runner" camp, so I suppose I'm biased.

Given that the relative karma and power ratings they have given Tir Ghosts in other suppliments are on the order of double what's in the BBB, I sure as hell can.

If a PC wants to be one of the best in the world and is slinging 22-26 dice, the best in the world opposition will have a similar number of dice, in my book. Not 6-10 less.

The PC will be doing in that in one or two skills, tops. A PC can't even take a 5 or a 6 in a skill group at chargen, for one thing. And individual superstars in special forces can be assumed to be statted up with prime runner rules.

Ehhh. Double post. I'm a tard.

Anyway, that's true and untrue at the same time: the Tir Ghosts ARE the individual superstars, and should be treated as such. They're not the Bratach Gheal or something, but given that all the runners in the fluff everywhere seem to get worried at the mention of the Ghosts, I don't think they should be handled like standard opposition.

Either way, my opinions on the Tir Ghosts and their power level aren't entirely germaine to this discussion. I stand by my statement that gunslinger adepts aren't as scary as people think, relative to other PCs.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought the Tir Ghosts were not best-of-the-best murderists, they were more like covert ops who specialize in theft, sabotage and other such stuff. If that is true, I doubt you'd ever encounter a fair gunfight with them but when you do a totally min-maxed gunbunny probably should not be at a terrible disadvantage against them (and may even have the advantage until his commlink is hacked, the four ghosts behind him leap out, etc, etc).

Tir Ghosts don't need to kill you directly. They can use subterfuge to sleep with your mother causing her to disown you and sell you out to the corps and gangs and crime families. Then, when you're finally in hiding, the murder you with a sandvich.

Changeling Elf with genetic opt, muscle toner, exceptional attribute, +the changeling version of exceptional attribute. 12 agility at char gen, can get to 15 once in game when you improve muscle toner to 4 and get Suprathyroid Gland. and you still have room for a trauma damper or something else that is .3ish in essence.(.6 in cyber I think.)

Depends on the edition. SR2 they were legends of death and destruction, SR 4 they are sneaky bastards but not awesome in a stand up fight. I prefer SR4 in this regard, it always felt funky that NPC special forces were described to be unstoppable, but PCs whose backgrounds could include being in the special forces were chumps. Skill caps have forced it a bit. Personally I don't like the skill caps but see no reason why special forces member X is as awesome as they were in SR2ish editions.

Ahh, good. and then you go cheap:
Elf, Agility 7(11 RG: muscle toner 4), Long Arms 6 (Shotguns+2), smartlink+2: 21 dice to shoot shotguns for 118 BP.

Sinking 70 BP in Adept, Magic 6(5) could get you Combat Sense 5 and Improved Reflexes II. There is little return on more shotgun dice from Improved Ability.

Sink it all into agility though and the bad ass alpha strike is a nice side benefit. Agility is the do everything stat, get your agility to starting 12 and you throw 11 dice for a stupid range of things from defaulting. A smidge of skill and you are awesome at a wide range of things.

Can we please get a none in the chargen translation of all that gear seeing as that and the changes are meant to be in etarratar that never comes out.

Technically you round down on max augmented stats(unless 4A changed it) so Elf is 7/10. Take surge improve attribute, exceptional attribute, genetic aug, and you are 10/15. You can get to 14 if not an adept at char gen, 12 if an adept.

Surge I for 5 BP, Metagenetic Improvement (Agility) (10 additional BP), Impaired Attribute (Body). 15 total.

Agility limits should be 8/12 now, right?

Why in great Cthulhu's unholy name would you take Impaired Body, especially for a close-range combat character? That's suicide.

So many less problematic Surge traits, too. Take 'Stupid Eyes' or 'Fuzzy Butt' or something.

Asthma.

Then just carry a inhaler around with Zero.





-karma

My favorite is Mood Beard.

A reduced maximum body matters only if you are close to the max. I consider body 4 enough.

Maybe you prefer Mystic Armor over Combat Sense.

Damn I thought you needed surge 2 for emtagenic improvement, I should have checked my books.

Adept 5
Surge 5
Exceptional attribute 20
restricted gear 5
Surge stuff
metagenic improvement
pick a disadvantage that isn't one surge wise.

14 starting agility and an adept, bad ass. 13 dice to all agility skills without spending a point in them. Go with ranged weapon of choice 6 and you are absurd in that arena and still bad ass in a wide range of other things.

Yes those finall half a dozen points are really expensive, but my point was to max out the shotgun dicepool.

Doesn't work, your 10 points over.
While you dont need surge 2 for metagenetic improvment, it costs you 10 points that count against the limit if you only take surge 1.

Thats not exactly true. I don't want to bring up the 'how HC out to work' debate AGAIN, but.... HC doesn't reduce Recoil directly by providing recoil compensation, it reduces a dice pool penalty. If uncompensated recoil is, say, doubled because you're using a heavy weapon or a shotgun, then HC isn't going to be as effective at all.

Surge I gets you 10 points of effect, Metagenic Improvement is 20 points. That means your list looks like:
Adept 5
Surge 5
Exceptional attribute 20
restricted gear 5
Surge Stuff
metagenic improvement +10
pick a disadvantage that isn't one surge wise.

That's 45 points, leaving you 10 over. Even if you take Surge II, that's 40 points (5+10+20+5).

To min/max for CharGen, you should use
Elf
Adept 5
Surge 10
Genetic Heritage: Genetic Optimization: Agility 10
restricted gear 5
Surge Stuff
Metagenic Improvement: Agility
Random Disads

Which is only 30 points, gets you 9/13 Max.

To Min/Max for extended play, use the Enhanced Attribute. You can pick up Genetic Optimization: Agility during play, for 10/15 Max.

RACE: Elf (395BP)

ATTRIBUTES
Body: 4
Agility: 9 [13]
Reaction: 4 [6]
Strength: 2
Charisma: 3
Intuition: 2
Logic: 2
Willpower: 3
EDGE: 1
Phys Init[P] 6[8]
Passes 1[3]
Essence: 4.00
Magic: 4
Phys Boxes 10
Stun Boxes 10

ACTIVE SKILLS
Dodge 4
Automatics (Ares Predator III) 6 (+2)
Unarmed Combat 4
Perception 4

Race Qualities
Low-Light Vision

Standard Qualities
Class II Surge 10
Genetic Heritage 10
Restricted Gear 5
Metegenetic Improvement (Agility) 20
Combat Monster -10
SINner (Standard) -5
Uneducated -20
Allergy (Common, Mild) -10

POWERS
Adept Powers: (2.5 Available)
Improved Combat Ability [Automatics] 3

Cyber/Bioware:
Synaptic Booster (1-3) 2
Genetic Optimization (Agility)
Muscle Toner (1-4) 4

Hastur forbid you ever find yourself in one of the many, many possible situations where Body 4 isn't enough. Not to mention, as Yerameyahu points out, there are numerous negative SURGE qualities that are even less of a hindrance, so you still haven't answered the question: why Impaired Body and not a quality that, you know, doesn't amount to fucking yourself in the ass just because you can?

You might want to take a few deep breaths there, because you're coming across as rather strident. I don't think anyone here is trying to argue that having a lower Body score is a good thing-- nobody really wants their character to be squishy. But since the build points for having a higher Body don't just drop out of the sky, I can think of a lot of decent reasons why stopping at a 4 is pretty reasonable. Off the top of my head, that's Lined Coat/Actioneer and some FFBA territory, which is pretty dang practical. And if you're going by BBB armor only rules that's just enough to slap on a good ol' Armor Jacket, which is generally about as armored up as you'll be getting without putting on the kinds of gear that tend to attract the wrong sort of attention. I suppose you can argue in general that if you want raw combat optimization you should probably just roll an ork or a troll dang near every time, but frankly, not everyone wants to roll a troll or ork every session, and the charisma hit can be quite annoying if you have longterm aspirations of being a gun bunny face, in which case the Edge and Charisma netted from going elf or human has its own merits to consider. At any rate, I hardly think it's a "Body 5 or higher or gtfo," situation. If you have no intentions of aspiring higher, than Impaired Attribute is basically just getting free points for promising to stick with your initial design. At a lot of tables that's a better deal than picking up a standard allergy or a low rating enemy. It's subpar for a SURGE trait, but that says more about how goofy some of the other negative qualities are than anything else.

During chargen, sure, it's reasonable to go for 4 Body. What about after that? Hmm, we're starting to run into some pretty nasty opposition, I might want 6 after all. Too bad I took Impaired Body. There's a lot of territory between pure optimization and gimping your character's future development for no discernible reason.