So, fairly simple question. A Technomancer with Resonance Trodes can "drag a person’s mind into hot VR and nuke it with Black IC" Now, ignoring that a TM generally doesn't have access to IC, I'm curious: What kind of matrix stats does the person in question have? They aren't being connected through a commlink, so they wouldn't use any commlink's stats. Since they aren't going through a commlink they wouldn't have any programs. So what exactly is the person at that point? Some kind of impromptu resonance 0 TM with no CFs? If that's the case, does that mean a normal attack program could knock the person out?

Just curious because the book really doesn't go into any real detail about what happens other than mentioning it as a way to KO/kill someone if you can touch them.

No clue. Stupid book. It doesn't appear to explain *anything* beyond 'share sensory info to/from the target'.

It doesn't say anything. Common sense says that a mundane person wouldn't get any programs or viable actions if draged in via resonance... But how that works is a little bit absurd. It's instant death/KO from a touch, no fighting back. Heck, the victim can't even log out. If the TM doesn't log them out themselves they theoretically suffer dump-shock when the TM lets go.

The book really needs to elaborate on this one.

yeah one could subue soem one then switch to VR and mess with them. Hell psychotropic CF for brain washing. BBG idea coming now.

Right, and this is exactly why I asked. No commlink means no stats, no resonance means no stats, no stats means no abilities to do anything. No abilities means a TM that can touch someone instantly wins with this ability. There is a short (1 IP) chance for someone else to break the two apart, but that is about it. And if the TM has Mesh Reality... well, good luck doing that.

Not quite true. A person in VR can't use anything on the matrix without the right program, and indeed default to program -1.

However, they can take any action they like that you don't have to roll. Very technically.

I still think that means Terminate Connection is about the only thing they can do. Possibly Run Program, if there happen to be any around. Conceivably, since they're in VR, the -might- be able to take Log On action to bring their own commlink into the session. Dunno how feasable that is, though.

How about houserule some kind of will test to resist the TM. Opposed or threshold.

Can't default on anything on the matrix. You must have the relevant program (or that quality that lets you do without).

Yeah, these would be some of the very few cases. You could log out (But continued contact with the TM means continually being forced into VR, so I don't think you actually could do this successfully. It would make for a very lame attack if you pulled someone into VR and they just logged out and punched you in the face)

There already is one to drag the person in if they are unwilling.

Edit: Resonance + Willpower vs Willpower + Intuition.

Anyone else notice that most TM powers use Willpower as their stat? Anyone else think this should maybe be changed to 'stream fading stat'?

they could log out face the fact theyare still head locked and then get sucked back in. Alos as soon as they brake out blackhammer or what every bye bye that action.

That doesn't work well at all for the TM though. In general the target is going to be stronger than the TM, and so would be able to break out of a hold fairly easily, and an attack is a complex action, so you would get a cycle of: Attack to grab them, they log out for free, then break free, then the TM has to grab them again, then they log out for free again...

Until the TM misses a grab and then they get beat on. That's why I figure the ability wouldn't allow a target to log out.

Why wait until after you subdue them? Just a touch attack and they're in VR and now have -6 to every physical action. Then, your Mesh-Reality-Echo-having TM just subdues the helpless guy while beating him to death with blackhammer.

How do you get blackhammer in there, anyway? Just curious. Crossload from a commlink linked to your bionode?

You thread it? Or you simply have it as a complex form? Nothing against TMs having BHs.

The real question is 'how do they get a Black IC in there?' because that is what the text says. Of course it never says where anyone ends up when they enter VR, so they could all end up on the TMs commlink that has a black IC waiting on it to nuke the guy... maybe that is the answer.

Thanks. I never play with Technomancers, too much pain. I didn't realize they could thread/CF IC.

No, they can't thread/CF IC, but you can get blakchammer without IC. Blackhammer is just another program.

Oh, I misread. My intention was to follow up on *your* question, but I got distracted by the next post. Thanks.

So… crossload from a linked comm, like I said?

You're welcome. Could you imagine threading up a rating 12 IC/agent though? It would win the Matrix.

well a TM can get 5ip trix and 4 meat that means they just need to do this on turn 4 and bam extra IP of pure matrix to hit them. That or supirse round attack?

The nastiest thing i've come up with for Resonance Trodes is the Clinch maneuver.

Trodes are a Resonance + WP test vs Int+WP. More importantly, it doesn't require an action to apply.(which can be used to counter log-out cheese). Against unwilling targets, it needs a touch based(+2 dice, tie to attacker) to initiate

Clinch is a maneuver that, when you land an unarmed attack, lets you get so close reach bonuses don't matter instead of doing damage. Breaking the clinch means the defender needs to use a complex action(importantly), and win a str+bod opposed test. It takes no action to initiate, but if you don't want to do damage, its free lunch.

If you have Mesh Reality, which basically makes you dual-natured for the matrix and meatspace, lets you fight in physical and cyber combat at the same time with a -4 to everything. However: "this modifier can be reduced for cybercombat ONLY by using the macro echo." Which means... if you have Macro and Mesh Reality(which needs Multiprocessing), then you can use macro for cybercombat. Win.

So, more or less, you can punch someone in meatspace with a Complex Action, trigger clinch AND resonance trodes, because you hit with an unarmed attack and they're not mutually exclusive, thread up a blackhammer/blackout as a non/free action(i'm not sure what kind of action threading uses. FAQ says it doesn't take any, but I don't trust it), and Macro your second complex action to hit someone's brain with it with, all within one pass.
It takes 5 echoes to do, sure, but sometimes you just need to use a vulcan neck pinch.

What about the cybercommlinks that a person might have? OK you've sucked me into VR, now I can use my programs and Agents (assuming I have them) to fight you.

I know by the time a TM has the Karma for this trick I'll have a Response 6 commlink and all my cyberware will be at least Alpha grade. I'll cluster all that together so I can run commlink programs on them. This will allow me to "Agent Smith" that TM's ass.

Yes you can, programs take the place of attributes in the matrix and all the rules that apply to attributes ably to programs instead.
So you can default at program-1 when you dont have the neccesary skill, but ofcource you cant default if you dont have the relevant program, defaulting is for a lack of skill not attribute.

The Echo is called "Resonance Trodes" which suggests to me the same basic utility as a Trode net. So, since the link is between the target's brain and the technomancer's bionode there's no reason to think that the target's comlink gains any sort of access. Besides, nothing but CFs can operate in a bionode, so no killer Agents on either side of the struggle. Just a helpless guy getting his brain pounded by massive biofeedback until his eyes boil.

Honestly, in this case I'd probably give the victim basic attributes as if they were Technomancers. Since they are dragged in by Resonance, it makes sense that they would have a bio firewall and whatnot while that is sustained. Still no programs, so that really doesn't help them at all: they'd be creamed. But then, that's the power of Submersion, eh?

If they manage to log out, the Technomancer would have to drag them in again since it is a Resonance + Willpower, rather than anything to do with pure touch. It takes a force of will.

Still, in the end this ends up being very powerful. So avoid touching Technomancers and shoot them if they try. A lot. After all, are you going to let anyone you don't know come up and touch you? A lot of magic is touch based too, so people would be used to fearing touch.

Yeah, I've been contemplating putting together a Techno adept concept. A guy who isn't particularly good in the Trix, but is a weapon in the real world that no one sees coming. It'd make him a top-level assassin. No magic to mask, no essence drain apparent on his aura, just 4 meat IPs and a handshake that melts minds.

Which is a pretty awesome concept.

Really though, if the best way to defend an enemy Mage is to have a Mage in your party, then the same is likely true for a Technomancer. In this case, to break in and try to save your pal.

Another answer is to shoot the Techy. If you see one grab your friend, who falls down twitching, you're probably going to try to kill the guy or gal who did it. Then you don't have to worry about going in to save them. It might count as dumpshock for your friend, but that's better than boiled brains.

What stops a street sam from grabbing a guy, putting trodes on his head and booting him into VR on a commlink with Black IC set to fry his brain?

Can't a street sam with bone density and MA qualities kill a guy by punching him?

Can't a mage kill a guy by just looking at him funny?

I'm not really seeing the big imbalance here.


As for stats, I'd say the victim gets to roll Intuition for defense and Willpower for damage resistance when you hit it with Black Hammer or Blackout - sort of like a living persona, except we're not giving him Firewall and Biofeedback Filter. Other than that, I'd stick to the part that says they act like trodes - ie. you can't knock him out with Attack, only stuff that can do damage through simsense will work.

i'd have a tank sprite ready to take on my victim. that's the rare occasion, where you can build some dumb squatter ork TM with computer illiterate. actually i did

there are compounds, right *now* that cause damage from a touch. there are hundreds (probably thousands or millions really) of diseases that spread by touch.

nevertheless, if i meet someone for the first time and they offer to shake my hand when i meet them, i have yet to pull out a gun and start shooting them on suspicion of trying to infect or poison me.

this is because while it is *possible* that some random person is trying to murder with a handshake, the vast majority of the people i meet are *not* trying to murder me with a handshake.

i expect things are largely similar in the 6th world. sure, it's possible that someone is trying to murder you. but, on the other hand, they could also just pull out a gun and shoot you in the face if they wanted to murder you, so the handshake thing seems relatively unlikely overall. particularly since with a gun they can shoot you from over a kilometer away where you aren't going to be able to identify them if you see them again.

But we're not talking about handshakes, are we? Or I should say *I* am not. In context, I'm talking about battle. Even so, in the Sixth World it is noted that bowing is often more common than handshakes these days.

Further, people get silly about things like disease. Magic and Technomancy inspire more direct fear. People thought Tehcnomancers could hack the brains of their children when they first hit the scene. Some might get paranoid. Shoot them on sight? No. Use other accepted means of greeting another with no risk to yourself? Why not.



Exactly this.

For what it's worth: The resonance trode rules are entirely too slop. but my take on it is thus.

Normal Person: Your pretty hosed, should have not let the 90 pound soaking wet kid grab you. Use your actions to try and break the hold (Your like what -8 or something but it's about yoru best option.)

Technomancer: Your in his bionode now, he's got the home court advantage but as long as your cybercombat skills are good you've got a decent fighting chance.

Hacker w/ implanted link: Laughs maniacly/"You done screwed up now son."Go on the offneisve withy our own programs and state of the art link. You've paid essence for it, it's a part of you, no reason to believe (especially if we go for the MATRIX MAGIC model) that you do not have access to it. Load up the program of your choice and then attack his icon represented in his bionode and kill the sucker. You might take some damage but he's likely getting the stinky end of the stick.

Basically: This is one of the few areas where actually implanted Hackers finally have an advantage over trode kiddies, their ware is effectively part of themselves, I can't see any rational reason why they wouldn't have it.

In other words, this is yet another broken mechanic from Unwired.

I'm getting the impression that absolutely no rules from that book should be let into a game; the fluff is apparently very valuable, though.

I'm sorry, yes, you can default if you don't have the skill but you cannot default if you don't have the [/i]program[/i]. No skill = sucky DP, no program = No Possibility.


Only problem is that TM stats are limited by their resonance, so the victim would have 0 in all their living persona stats. So no biofeedback filter off their charisma, and no response off their intuition. They would however get their willpower to resist the damage like normal.
Would have to be an... well, actually it wouldn't be possible to be quick enough to do anything before the initiating TM got two attacks on the person. 1 attack while breaking past the firewall (1 IP extended action) and another attack while the new TM looks for the initiating TM (Simple action to look for a hidden persona)
True, I could accept that in this case the Hacker should get to bring their commlink. What programs they happen to have loaded at the time is up for question, but that is another issue. It should be an interesting battle because Hackers are virtual glass cannons while TMs are virtual Steel Walls. Luckily since it is a bionode the Hacker can't call agent backup, but the TM can call sprite backup.
Some of the rules are good, you just kind of have to cherry pick them. The new streams are great, the new Echos are mostly great, the '5 IP in cyberspace' is nice, and alot of the stuff like detailing the creation of backdoors and hidden account is also great. All in all there is alot of good stuff, but yeah, there is some stuff that seems like it was a bit rushed or just never polished.

I'd think it would use the Technomancer's Resonance as the basis, since it was the Technomancer that translated them into the Matrix.

Yeah, it would take a lot of time. Hopefully they survive. Not much to be done there, but I still say you can just shoot the Technomancer if you see them bring down a team mate.



I like this idea a lot.

Since it's a resonance effect, I'd say the victim gets stats as per a normal technomancer:
- Firewall: Will
- Response: Int +1
- Signal: 0 (They have no resonance)
- System: Logic.
- Biofeedback filter: Cha

They have no complex forms, and they are completely screwed, but at least they have some defenses that way.

As per a normal technomancer, no living persona stat can be higher than their resonance, so 0 resonance means all 0 living persona stats. This is an advanced Echo we're talking about though, that requires a TM to actually beat someone in a melee attack, so I don't see too much problem with the victim being highly screwed.

I would say that if the victim has a cyber commlink then he can use that in combat against the TM. Also anything that is IN his home node (IC that is residing in his 'link or anything slaved to it) should be brought against the hacker. The reason I say this is because (like said above) you paid Essence for all that wiz cyberware, why couldn't you use it.

I agree about getting the commlink if it is implanted, but I disagree about being able to bring IC to bear. IC can't leave its node, and agents can't enter a bionode, so neither one has the reach to affect the TM's living persona in its bionode. (Remember, have to be in the same node to do an attack)

Again, the victim would be translated to the Matrix by the Technomancer and thus would (potentially) use their Resonance stat to determine their own stats. They still wouldn't have Complex forms and whatnot, so they're toast either way.

I would think you will run into problems accessing the programs running on your comlink, even if it is implanted.

Not only that, but you logged into VR without using your comlink. I am AFB, but I remember something from Unwired where your access ID is based on your point of login. Your access ID would be highly different from normal since your login location would be the TM's node and not your own comlink. You might even need to hack into your own comlink to even get access since your login information will not correspond to your normal account. This will be impossible to do without any programs.

Mm, what stops the person from leaving the Node, by the way? For instance, running off to their comlink and logging in since they know the passwords. If the Technomancer is touching them, then they are likely in range of their comlink.


Other than shock and trauma that is.

Hmm, I'd guess they'd have the stats with the comm system they're running in, which is the TM's bionode.

So what you're saying is that Freddy Krueger is a Technomancer.

Not... necessarily? Though it's a funny thought.

Suppose that is a problem, and like I said, is why I asked. The book is absurdly lacking in details. I suppose you could argue that the TM could shut down their wireless connection so that the commlink wouldn't be in range, but that seems unlikely. The TM may be able to limit access though... Oh, and keep in mind that finding your own commlink would be hard. You'd wouldn't have any programs to help you, so you'd have to have your Access ID memorized, and figure out a way to input it manually without a program to go somewhere. I'd think by the time you could even begin trying to do any of that you'd be fried.

Part of the valid password is logging in from a valid location, like logging into your comlink from the physical comlink. Part of a corp wageslave's valid login is that he logs in from his comlink to access the corporate network (or a dedicated internal terminal for the security concious). Of course I could be misremembering Unwired information on access codes.

You're dragging a mind kicking and screaming to an area that the normal human mind wasn't meant to be in without cybernetic assistance (either a simrig or a datajack, for all you retirees out there), so it's not a far cry to assume the Technomancer could make his attacks against your sweetbreads look like anything at all. All you have to do to get out is wake up, but in a place where you normally need a logout command...

...It does seem rather Krugerish.

Now I just need to figure out how to put resonance trodes on someone without touching them

Heh, true. Well, there is a book that compares Technomancers to psychics. I think it was Emergence, in fact, when one of the jackpoint users asks how they could not notice Technomancers even before the tech caught up with the ability.

Well, it could be fun. If a Techno takes the time to shut down the comlink ahead of time, then there really is almost no familiar ground.

Mix your horror flicks. Saw uses plenty of booby traps, why not channel folks in and have them drop from the ceiling like so many giant spiders?

Or just shock them into unconsciousness if they're rude enough to wear helmets.

I don't think an implanted link helps you, any more than trodes+normal comm helps you. It's pulling your *mind* into (presumably) the Technomancer's bionode.