For a 400 BP character using all the books and standard rules, what's the maximum starting Nuyen you could have? Is it 330k from Born Rich + In Debt (for 30 BP), or am I missing something?

10% discount from Blackmarket pipeline.

But that's not really more money, just less you have to spend . .

But it makes your money go further so the effect is the same.

Starting gear isn't bought from that contact, so wouldn't get the benefit of BMP unless that's been in some errata.

Ha, or some error.

I'd say that depends on background history. I can't see a GM denying it, since it's already an expensive quailty...

I can. Should the face get to use their 20 social dice to negotiate the cost of all their starting gear? Does the hacker get to pre-write all his programs (years of 'background history')? Of course not.

I see no issue with the Hacker writing his own programs in his back story... He would still pay the same cost as Book Software in my opinion, as it would account for tools, access, and lifestyle costs while doing so...

In Debt is the brokest ass quality in existence. Negative quality (MORE BP) that gives you MORE MONAY my ASS.

It is exactly the kind of thing I would totally and flatly disallow as a GM and abuse savagely as a player. Stackability with 'In Debt'? DOUBLY STUPID.

Anyway, you might want to tack on some 'Restricted Gear' Gamer. The In Debt will cover them.

I've always seen the starting gear as more of an abstract thing; you can give it any backstory you want, but it doesn't effect any costs. Want your Synaptic Booster r2 to be from a government experiment? No problem, but it still costs the same from your starting fund.

Goes nicely with "Day Job" as well. Because really, what GM is going to say, "Sorry, you're at work right now, so you cant go on the run tonight."?

That said, I allow both in my games, but with the clear understanding that they will be used ruthlessly as plot hooks.

Exactly...

Not sure if I would not allow Black Market Pipeline to affect the cost in Character Generation myself, but it has never come up in our games, so who knows. Are there any other instances of Qualities affecting Cost?

There is at least one that explicitly does in Aumentation, IIRC, reduces starting cash costs for specific types of cyber/bio/gene tech (or maybe that one is only for gene tech - curse being away from my books ><)

Heck, starting gear should have a back story. That's part of building a character. Obviously you don't just walk down to the corner store and drop almost sixty five grand on Alphaware Wired Reflexes 2. That's enough money for somebody to live a low lifestyle for almost three years, so in essence three years of an average wage for a non corporate employee. Why did they choose to drop that in themselves instead of using that money for other things? Or, more likely, who dropped it in them for them because 64K wasn't that big of a sum. And why are they not liable to this person anymore?

And we are back at every street samurai being an ex mercenary or soldier or cop or something, because there is no other way to explain all that combat ware . .

There's a wealth of possible plausible backgrounds for all characters.

But your examples are incredibly limited. No other way? Alternate ideas to being a former soldier or cop? Maybe the character was a favored enforcer for a criminal organization. Maybe they were a company man for a now-defunct corporation. Maybe they grew up as a Barrens ganger but managed to have a successful low level criminal career that garnered them the favor of somebody who could supply the cyberware. There's three ideas alone off the top of my head that aren't former cops or soldiers.

A lack of imagination doesn't mean something isn't possible. "Or something" is a pretty broad category.

However, if the nature of a street samurai makes some backgrounds make less sense, then that's just the way it is.

Hm. Currently most of the Character Generators out there have BMP affecting starting gear costs.

Is there any rule that states you can not have gotten all your gear via a particular contact at character creation?




-karma

None that I am aware of...
Kind of a Gray Area, because it makes it pretty good depending upon the Black Market Goods you select...

Don't forget, if you're playing a non-awakened character, used alpha is a great way to get more cyber for cheaper.

In Debt is only free points/money if the GM lets it be free points/money. Just like folks who used to gripe about Amnesia, it's just a flaw that puts the ball squarely in the GM's court -- if he doesn't MAKE it hurt, it's no one's fault but his own. In Debt sure caught up to Han Solo eventually, didn't it?

I had a character that was maxed in debt.
The very first mission, I made enough money to pay the whole thing off at once.

And unlike Han.. I did

Back home with my books now, looks like I got slightly mixed up. Genecrafted reduces the "Cost" of starting genetic enhancements by 20% (I'm assuming both nuyen and essence because of the following item) and Genetic Heritage reduces the "nuyen cost" of all transgenic genetic enhancements by 20%.

The BMP does seem like a pretty gray area to me, seems pretty crazy good for say, a rigger taking a vehicle pipeline. Idk, it's never come up, so I don't really know how I would treat it.

because Riggers are way overpowered already.
It's not that big of a discount, and they're paying serious BP for it.

I'm heavily in favor of it counting at chargen. I houserule In Debt to be a 0-point Quality.

A fantastic example of a different case is Hatchetman's story from Cybertechnology (2nd Ed.) The fluff of his growing up on the streets is awesome times 2. His wares cames slowly over the years, and the story tells about how it gradually builds up.

Not trying to aruge, prove you wrong, but just throwing out an example of how gear can be worked into a backgroud story (as kruger prefers, and can't blame 'em) that is the different story.

Also, I just like the writing. Think I'm gonna go read it again...

QFT

Yeah, crunching it out a bit, I guess it's not that huge of a deal. Absolute best case scenario would be an extra ~37,000 to play with at start. In most normal cases, it's worth less than 15,000 during char-gen. Still a very good point value for some builds, but nothing drastically game changing.

No, but then you're only applying part of the rule of the contact and not all of it. Sure, all discounted gear comes through that contact, but now it's all restricted by the connection, loyalty, availability and street costs.

Besides, according to character creation contacts are chosen after gear so they don't exist during gear selection.

Starting gear is unaffected by any restrictions other than Availability, and then only in so far as a hard cap for allowable gear and not the process of acquisition. Black Market Pipeline isn't a great deal as a Quality when you think about it. It does still give the player a +3 DP for fencing.

As far as In Debt goes, it is true that it only really affects players as much as GMs let it. sabs's GM made it easy, free BP by giving him enough cash to pay it off in one run. A GM who makes 30K a lot of money can get quite a bit of mileage out of it.

But I feel it's not a very good quality because of that. It's a negative quality that gets bought off with simple nuyen. Not by roleplaying, not by karma. It's so incredibly temporary and it can be worth up to 30 points. Look at other 30 point negatives: Being fatally addicted to the hardest of hard drugs. Some kind of ungodly powerful enemy who lurks around ever corner and has a vendetta against you. You only get 25 points if you let the GM make your character for you and then not tell you what he did, lol. Only 20 if you burst into flames upon contact with sunlight. Only 20 if you start of the game terminally ill.

Nad its only ever worth anythink if you max your money, otherwise its better to pour enought build point into money to cover what that discount would have been, 15k is after all only 3BP:s.

Kruger: There's no set order for doing stuff at chargen and i'm pretty sure everyone does it in mixed order, tweaking stuff here and there until their satisfied with their character.

Actually, you do have to spend karma to permanently get rid of a flaw - it's not just the debt of nuyen, it's someone with a marker over your head. If someone paid off their debt, I would start deducting Karma from them to pay it off (maybe half of their Karma until it was gone). There are a lot of flaws that would otherwise be relatively easy to get rid of (I killed my enemy? Cool. Unusual hair? Guess I'll dye it, or shave it and wear a wig. Day job? Hey, boss, I quit.).


Back to the OP - in addition to the Born Rich and In Debt qualities, there is also the Genetic Heritage quality, which gives you a genetic modification for free and makes any others you get cheaper.

Thanks for all the info. I should have added in my original post that I'm trying to tweak a character to be able to start with a better vehicle than normal. The problem I keep running into is cash for it.

starting with a good vehicle is hard
they are really expensive

Qft.

Seconded.

+1

Again, the transfer of a few certified credsticks alone shouldn't be enough to shake a Flaw. The precedent's long been that you've got to satisfy a role playing element (in this instance, paying off money) and balance things out, otherwise; heck, even someone who takes the Latent Awakening positive quality has to shell out Karma once it 'kicks in.'

Offing an Enemy or murdering your Day Job boss, alone, doesn't wipe the slate clean -- or shouldn't -- does it? Likewise, just dropping some cash shouldn't get rid of In Debt, and a player shouldn't expect it to. Getting 30 BP out of one quality should be a clear message that a player sends to a GM, stating explicitly "I want this to complicate my character's life and be an important theme in his ongoing story." Shelling out some nuyen, by itself, shouldn't get rid of that. New negative qualities should be selected to balance it out, a serious karma investment should try to smooth it over, or whatever...but it shouldn't be that easy to shake a major negative quality.

If it is that easy, that's -- again -- something I'd look at as sub-par, or at least uncreative and uninspired, GMing.

Dayjob can be a pain in the but. My Crew is running Ghost cartels and is doing some week long recon and following of gang members full time for 7 days. Caused some friction with the team when our adept is like "I have go for a while" when he is gone for 8 hours for a couple days the team decides to dock his cut of the job because he isn't doing it! If your DM lets you take the flaw he should make it a flaw.

My point was more that it's a bad flaw to play out. Having one of your players not play isn't a whole lot of fun.

Except that you should have also paid off the Quality in Karma (Double at that) to be "Rid" of it permanently, otherwise you continue to owe favors to those to whom you were indebted...

At least by the Book anyways...

The book doesn't really say that; that's why In Debt is munchkin. But, the GM can certain *do* that, or a number of other things, to make it fair.

Tymeaus, I meant that the hacker can't use the 'writing programs' rules to get them. Your backstory can be whatever silly tale you want, but the bottom line is you're buying your gear.

See... When I see a sentence in the Section on Improving characters in the book (PAge 371, under Negative Qualities), and it specifically states that you must pay 2x BP Cost to Remove it ("he [the GM] may allow that character to pay twice the Quality's BP cost to REMOVE IT"), I am under teh opinion that it explicitly states that it may not be reomved until that cost is paid... and ONLY if the GM ALLOWS YOU TO DO SO... otherwise you still suffer under the aegis of the Quality... After All, You are still IN DEBT until you have removed the Quality from your sheet.

For In Debt... Even if you have paid the money, you still "OWE" the group/person/whatever until it has been bought off in Karma... thus, in my opinion, you pay in favors, since that is the only remaining currency that matters at that point.

As for Gear Purchase... Yes, your gear must still be paid for, regardless of the Rationale you are using... The question is whether a Quality will allow you to reduce that cost...

Like I said: the book doesn't say what you've admitted is your opinion. All you're required to do is make interest payments on 0¥ to keep collectors away. In Debt is flawed. Really, it should say something like, "you may take 5-30 BP, which can only be spent on Nuyen at chargen, and the 50BP cap is not affected".

It's not whether *a* Quality can reduce costs, but whether the Black Market Pipeline does, because it specifically refers to using the negotiation rules. They aren't used in chargen, so it has no effect.

When there's a general rule, eg. "twice the quality's BP cost to remove it", it's only overridden when there's a specific exception made. In "In Debt's" case, there isn't.

I didn't say it gets removed. I said that there's nothing about 'owing favors' at *any* point, whether you've paid it off or not. It's perfectly acceptable as one possible house rule; it's absolutely not "by the Book".

Perhaps it's not even possible (by the book) to repay In Debt with money, and you just have to pay (Principal * 1.5)*0.1 each month until it's bought off with karma (at which point, as with things like blindness, you pay the karma *and* nuyen cost at once). However, the phrasing of the quality implies that you can pay more than just the interest. Again, my position is that it's total munchkin broken (no way should you get cash *and* BP, esp. not 30), and that a punitive house rule like TJ's would be a good idea. It's just not "by the Book".

The principle can't be paid until the karma is spent. Granted, we're stepping into 'poorly worded' territory again, but the rules make it clear several times that you can't get rid of the downsides of negative qualities without spending karma.

edit: you ninja'd me And yes, you hit on the exact poor wording I'm talking about. I have to interpret the "at least" in the quality to be encompassing the possibility of a karma + cash payoff (paying 10 karma and 5k to get it reduced to a 25 point negative quality, for instance) instead of a blanket "you can pay off the principle whenever you feel like it".

Right, that's what I was describing in the second paragraph above. If you had a 'One Arm' Negative Quality, you couldn't replace it with a cloned arm without paying the karma and the price of a new arm (at the same time). It's reasonable to treat In Debt the same way; it's also reasonable (though much more beneficial to the munchkin) to say that the principal can be payed down along the way. Neither has anything to do with favors.

Aside: in retrospect, my rewording of the rule was still wrong. I didn't translate BP and nuyen correctly (sorry); the idea is that it (a) counts against your 35BP Neg Qual limit, (b) does not give BP *and* cash, (c ) doesn't break the 50BP cash limit. You get the idea.

In which case it remains the worst quality on the books, not because it is too good, but because it is far worse than any other quality. Either way the quality is stupid. I second simply making it a 0 BP quality. It gets you some extra cash to start with, but you have to pay it back with interest, but don't have to worry about gimping your karma for the entire campaign.

And genecrafted, which also gives you a discount on genetech, but only during chargen. Of course if you're looking for more cash for a vehicle, that really doesn't help all that much.

Honestly, I can't imagine many vehicles that are worth crippling your character for.

Well, there wasn't a second paragraph when I hit Reply But yes, I agree that the favors thing wouldn't be by the book, though it would make a fine way of dealing with it.