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Neurosis
I need something that is very very high in the air (high enough to be unseen) to blast something on the ground with a massive laser weapon for the climax of my campaign. It is not extreme enough for a Thor shot, but is extreme enough for this kind of thing. A big aircraft, able to carry a lot of people, something slow-moving but powerful. Like an AC-130. Not an LAV or a chopper.

The closest thing I can find is the Hawker-Siddley HS-950 Skytrain (although in my campaign it would actually be an Ares TransSky, same stats) which would have to be modified for military use. (All the military aircraft in Arsenal are essentially small, fast-moving attack craft which I don't want.) Is there anything closer either in the fiction or in an older rulebook?
Kliko
C60 Titan from Fields of Fire or Rigger 3... You're looking for the 2060 version of a Spectre?
Yerameyahu
You meant the SR version, not the aircraft that would fill that *role* in SR, right? Because I'd expect LAVs to take over that function.

AFAIK, AC-130s don't fly 'very very high', either. The first thing that springs to mind is a zeppelin. smile.gif Very high, slow, large lift capacity, can have a superlaser. biggrin.gif

If it's just for a dramatic moment, and is intended to be unseen, just handwave it. Name it, give it fluff, but unless it's going to need stats, you don't need them, right?

Nice, Kliko! It's actually (in Rigger 3) the Lockheed C-260, p178. It has over 10x the load/cargo space of the TransSky, 2x the speed, 3x the fuel, +12 armor, … 7x the price. biggrin.gif
Doc Chase
Crib together an aging F-117 with a solid-state laser.

Just make sure to aim for the focusing lens and fill the target with a bunch of kernels encased in foil. biggrin.gif
Yerameyahu
You must be some kind of fake genius to come up with that, Doc. smile.gif
Matsci
QUOTE (Neurosis @ Sep 23 2010, 12:28 PM) *
I need something that is very very high in the air (high enough to be unseen) to blast something on the ground with a massive laser weapon for the climax of my campaign. It is not extreme enough for a Thor shot, but is extreme enough for this kind of thing. A big aircraft, able to carry a lot of people, something slow-moving but powerful. Like an AC-130. Not an LAV or a chopper.

The closest thing I can find is the Hawker-Siddley HS-950 Skytrain (although in my campaign it would actually be an Ares TransSky, same stats) which would have to be modified for military use. (All the military aircraft in Arsenal are essentially small, fast-moving attack craft which I don't want.) Is there anything closer either in the fiction or in an older rulebook?


Ares does have LEO laser sats capable of hitting ground targets. They used one to kill a great dragon. They hit with much less power than a Thor shot, but much more accuracy.
Brazilian_Shinobi
QUOTE (Matsci @ Sep 23 2010, 04:48 PM) *
Ares does have LEO laser sats capable of hitting ground targets. They used one to kill a great dragon. They hit with much less power than a Thor shot, but much more accuracy.


And the dragon was not killed, mind you.
Doc Chase
QUOTE (Matsci @ Sep 23 2010, 07:48 PM) *
Ares does have LEO laser sats capable of hitting ground targets. They used one to kill a great dragon. They hit with much less power than a Thor shot, but much more accuracy.


I wil forever deny that retcon - it was a squadron of high altitude aircraft and I'm stickin' to it.

@Yera: No fakes here, it's all Real Genius. biggrin.gif
StealthSigma
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Sep 23 2010, 03:35 PM) *
AFAIK, AC-130s don't fly 'very very high', either. The first thing that springs to mind is a zeppelin. smile.gif Very high, slow, large lift capacity, can have a superlaser. biggrin.gif


I know they run operations during the night because their slow speed makes them very vulnerable to SAMs. I believe they cruise high but they need to come down in altitude when they open fire.
Yerameyahu
Yeah, that's what I was referring to, StealthSigma, 'operational' altitude. No doubt you're right about cruising.

I like how, in classic SR fashion, the 2060 version is just C-130 * 2 = C-260. smile.gif Please note, regarding above, that the *AC*-260 would be even more vastly expensive, with all those badass artillery cannons and so on.
Neurosis
The stats are totally unimportant, this is purely for my own gratification in being able to name it. I like little details like that.

QUOTE
C60 Titan from Fields of Fire or Rigger 3... You're looking for the 2060 version of a Spectre?


Let me check this out. 2071 version, but yes.

QUOTE
You meant the SR version, not the aircraft that would fill that *role* in SR, right? Because I'd expect LAVs to take over that function.


Disagree (LAV cannot possibly equal the payload of an AC-130, they're too small) but that's a separate topic so (if that's even possible?) let's not get into it here. : )

QUOTE
AFAIK, AC-130s don't fly 'very very high', either. The first thing that springs to mind is a zeppelin


Basically, for the first part, see what StealthSigma said. For the second part, I don't want to use a zeppelin because I think they're kind of lame (which, I know, is totally subjective). I don't imagine them having to descend to a very low altitude to fire a laser straight down. (Of course, I am making lots of assumptions, including that heavy duty military vehicle laser weaponry does not care about things like cloud cover and weather the way that MP laser weaponry does.)

QUOTE
Ares does have LEO laser sats capable of hitting ground targets. They used one to kill a great dragon. They hit with much less power than a Thor shot, but much more accuracy.


I may use exactly this. I thought I read Tom Dowd (<3) saying on these forums that the Great Dragon actually got bullseyed by a laser on an aircraft, which is why this thread exists.

QUOTE
I wil forever deny that retcon - it was a squadron of high altitude aircraft and I'm stickin' to it.


Ah yes. This is the very thing I'm talking about.
Neurosis
Also, I THINK I have Fields of Fire but not Rigger 3. Let me do some digging around.

Definitely in the realm of idle curiosity now, but...

QUOTE
Nice, Kliko! It's actually (in Rigger 3) the Lockheed C-260, p178. It has over 10x the load/cargo space of the TransSky, 2x the speed, 3x the fuel, +12 armor, … 7x the price.


Any different (in fluff) from the 'C-60 Titan' on p. 66 of Fiels of Fire?
Doc Chase
Dowd wrote it in Night's Pawn, the first Shadowrun book I ever owned (and still do).
Yerameyahu
*shrug* By the fluff, I thought I read that that LAVs are definitely filling the 'heavy air support' role right now, which is the AC-130's big deal. They aren't replacing the 'massive cargo capacity' role of the C-130, but that's a completely different role. smile.gif

I mentioned the zeppelin because of this: "A high altitude combat version was also deployed in Tsimshian, mounting laser weaponry and carrying aerial combat drones." But I understand if you wrongly think that combat zeppelins aren't the awesomest thing ever.
Neurosis
A T-Bird can seat 8 people. A transport plane can seat 20 people.

That means a T-Bird can seat 8 people worth of ordnance. And an AC-260 (or w/e) can seat 20 people worth of ordnance.

There is no such thing as enough guns.
Doc Chase
I would say it's more the 'close' air support, not necessarily 'heavy'. A C-130 260 with a couple of Daisy Cutters is going to do more destruction than a pair of LAV's. biggrin.gif
Yerameyahu
smile.gif I'm *not* arguing that a C-260 isn't much bigger than a T-bird or two. I'm saying that the role of 'close/heavy' air support is now filled more by them. AFAIK. Which isn't that far. biggrin.gif

Not that passenger space is a valid measure of anything. wink.gif
Neurosis
It was the page I had open : P

T-Birds are portrayed more as blockade-running fast-movers with guns. They're essentially the dropship from Aliens. They're not mean to be purpose-built gunships like the AC-130.

I think that AC-130s are arguably ALREADY obsolete for the role of close air support. But I think that even by 2070, the AC-260 will still be filling the HEAVY air support role.

Basically, what Doc said.
Neurosis
Okay, I think I've got my 'plug in name', so thanks guys. I'm going to go with 'Lockheed AC-260' in my internal notes about 'where did that laser come from'.

That was fast. Dumpshock is really great for things like this.
Doc Chase
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Sep 23 2010, 09:13 PM) *
smile.gif I'm *not* arguing that a C-260 isn't much bigger than a T-bird or two. I'm saying that the role of 'close/heavy' air support is now filled more by them. AFAIK. Which isn't that far. biggrin.gif

Not that passenger space is a valid measure of anything. wink.gif


I consider it a valid method to determine ammo volume. I would much rather have 20 passengers' worth of 30mm ammo, rather than 8. You can also put large-bore cannon in the -260 that a LAV couldn't handle due to size/weight considerations.

I wouldn't say the '130s are obsolete, though there's fewer than 50 left in service (I believe they said around 33 combined 130-H and -U aircraft). They can pour sustained fire on a location, which makes them amazingly wonderful for knocking down hardnened defenses. Let the A-10's kill tanks while the -130 circles around turning a mountain into a crater.

Yerameyahu
It's possible. T-birds aren't for running blockades, though, unless you're a smuggler. smile.gif In the military, they're 'gunships'; bigger and *much* tougher than helicopters, more able to loiter than airplanes. Don't forget that the t-birds in the book are all 'light' and/or 'scout' class, which implies there's a much bigger brother or two out there.

Doc, I meant that passenger count doesn't have much bearing on actual cargo space or load capacity in SR4. Delivery Van: 3, Cargo Helicopter: 4, APC: 14, Transport Plane: 20?
Doc Chase
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Sep 23 2010, 08:30 PM) *
Doc, I meant that passenger count doesn't have much bearing on actual cargo space or load capacity in SR4.


It does when I'm loading ammo. biggrin.gif

"How many passengers? Three? Great! Stash the '105s in berths eight and nine, and the 30 anywhere else it'll fit!"

Huh? Oh, it deleted my smiles off that post. It was by no means to be serious. nyahnyah.gif
StealthSigma
QUOTE (Neurosis @ Sep 23 2010, 04:17 PM) *
I think that AC-130s are arguably ALREADY obsolete for the role of close air support. But I think that even by 2070, the AC-260 will still be filling the HEAVY air support role.


They are and aren't. There's a couple of unique aspects about the AC-130s that no other craft can meet.

1. They are very advanced and can operate just fine in severe weather and at night.
2. They can stay on station for long periods of time (I believe an AC-130 currently holds the continuous flight time record).
3. They can bring more heavy ordinance on site than any other CAS aircraft.
4. Raining fire has a rather marked fear factor in it.
5. Their support can be brought to bear from a higher altitude than other CAS aircraft.

I'm sure there's other advantages....
Yerameyahu
Hah, okay. smile.gif I'm just saying: Family Van=7, Cargo Van=3. It's just how many seats are typically in it.
hobgoblin
QUOTE (Neurosis @ Sep 23 2010, 10:17 PM) *
T-Birds are portrayed more as blockade-running fast-movers with guns. They're essentially the dropship from Aliens. They're not mean to be purpose-built gunships like the AC-130.

Not sure i would call the AC-130 purpose built. It is basically a C-130 with holes in the side to poke the guns out of.

And the C-130 is not even the biggest transport in the US military, that would be the C-5 galaxy. Thing is that there is plenty of C-130 to go on, so they are easy to replace.

The skytrains 30 body provides for 5 reinforced mounts or 10 normal mounts. And looking at the specs for a actual AC-130, that should be plenty of room.
Neurosis
QUOTE (StealthSigma @ Sep 23 2010, 04:34 PM) *
They are and aren't. There's a couple of unique aspects about the AC-130s that no other craft can meet.

1. They are very advanced and can operate just fine in severe weather and at night.
2. They can stay on station for long periods of time (I believe an AC-130 currently holds the continuous flight time record).
3. They can bring more heavy ordinance on site than any other CAS aircraft.
4. Raining fire has a rather marked fear factor in it.
5. Their support can be brought to bear from a higher altitude than other CAS aircraft.

I'm sure there's other advantages....


Yeah, all of these qualities (I'm assuming they carry over to SR) are why this aircraft is being used for this particular operation.
Doc Chase
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Sep 23 2010, 09:35 PM) *
Hah, okay. smile.gif I'm just saying: Family Van=7, Cargo Van=3. It's just how many seats are typically in it.


Field testing shows that ammo situated in a comfy chair prior to firing provides less wear on the barrel. biggrin.gif
Yerameyahu
The thing is, the AC-260 has the same 30 Body… and 10x the capacity. So the rules obviously remain a little wonky. smile.gif
KarmaInferno
AC-130s work well in the current day, because quite frankly the targets they are employed against usually have limited ability to fire back with anything that's a threat to the aircraft.

The Taliban doesn't really have the anti-air weaponry these days as they did back when they were fighting the Soviets. Us not supplying them any more with a never ending supply of anti-air stuff probably has something to do with it - they've depleted their stocks to a huge degree since then.

Against any enemy with good anti-air defenses, the AC-130 is a sitting duck.




-karma
Neurosis
A sitting duck with a hundred million gigantic guns, but yeah.
Angelone
That's why you send in other things (spec. forces, jets, cruise missles) in before you send the AC 130 in.

EDIT- to take out the air defense assets
Yerameyahu
Well. 2-3 gigantic guns, or possibly 6 or 8 medium/small ones, depending on the loadout. Spooky/Spectre is 2-4.
Neurosis
It is a fairly hyperbolic amount of firepower, so I was using hyperbole, but yes...(sadly?) I do know how many guns a Spectre mounts.
Yerameyahu
Hehe. smile.gif I know, but I found the difference between a hundred million and… 3… to be hilarious. biggrin.gif
Doc Chase
QUOTE (KarmaInferno @ Sep 23 2010, 09:45 PM) *
AC-130s work well in the current day, because quite frankly the targets they are employed against usually have limited ability to fire back with anything that's a threat to the aircraft.

The Taliban doesn't really have the anti-air weaponry these days as they did back when they were fighting the Soviets. Us not supplying them any more with a never ending supply of anti-air stuff probably has something to do with it - they've depleted their stocks to a huge degree since then.

Against any enemy with good anti-air defenses, the AC-130 is a sitting duck.




-karma


It has enough flares to give any heat-seeking projectile a run for its money. It's a trip to watch.
CanRay
And probably ECM out the ying-yang. But, hell, I'm a civilian, what do I know?

Anyhow, I just had a thought, A-10 Warthog replacement (Probably a LAV) with an Anti-Tank Laser. biggrin.gif Not exactly what you're asking for, but I enjoyed the idea.
hobgoblin
QUOTE (Doc Chase @ Sep 24 2010, 12:17 AM) *
It has enough flares to give any heat-seeking projectile a run for its money. It's a trip to watch.

indeed it is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOx_wHhitqk
KarmaInferno
QUOTE (Doc Chase @ Sep 23 2010, 05:17 PM) *
It has enough flares to give any heat-seeking projectile a run for its money. It's a trip to watch.


This is why I said "anti-air defenses". Plural. As in a complete defensive system.

Take an AC 130 above any one of the major world powers and start shooting, and see how long the AC 130 survives.




-karma
Yerameyahu
*shrug* AFAIK, gunships are only meant to be used when air-superiority is held. That includes knocking out major AA abilities. It's only fair to judge something in context. smile.gif
KarmaInferno
Right, and usually you only achieve massive air superiority when either A) The people you're fighting against are far below your tech and equipment level or B) the people you're fighting against are already losing badly.

It's a tool used in asymmetric warfare. You won't see them above battlefields of more evenly matched opponents.




-karma
Yerameyahu
Well, only because they don't exist. smile.gif Still, there can certainly be times when 'equally tech' ground armies are fighting, but one side has clear air-superiority.
Kliko
QUOTE (CanRay @ Sep 23 2010, 06:49 PM) *
Anyhow, I just had a thought, A-10 Warthog replacement (Probably a LAV) with an Anti-Tank Laser. biggrin.gif Not exactly what you're asking for, but I enjoyed the idea.

Where's the FB "Like" button for this option?
Brainpiercing7.62mm
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Sep 24 2010, 04:59 AM) *
Well, only because they don't exist. smile.gif Still, there can certainly be times when 'equally tech' ground armies are fighting, but one side has clear air-superiority.


A big, slow aircraft like that is fodder for any tank or IFV with even just a 20mm gun, so.... Sure they avoid the Stinger missiles quite well all those flairs, but it's direct fire guns they should worry about.
StealthSigma
QUOTE (Doc Chase @ Sep 23 2010, 06:17 PM) *
It has enough flares to give any heat-seeking projectile a run for its money. It's a trip to watch.


The angel wing deployment. God that is a beautiful sight from a monster of death. Their on board computer systems run on around 700,000 lines of code. I believe the space shuttles ran on about 3,000,000 lines of code.
Dragonscript
The military is actually looking for a UAV variation of the AC-130 that is zeppelin based. Other than it's weapons, the biggest advantage of the AC-130 is it's loitering ability, and one thing that restricts this the most is crew fatigue. Without a crew and mid-air refueling, the ship would only need to return to base for ammo and maintenance. The ship doesn't need to be fast, just stay up high for long periods of time, observing a large area until it is need and then rain down hell as desired.
Doc Chase
Well I suppose that raises the question of just how much heat a blimp with electric motors would create.
Yerameyahu
Possibly so, Brainpiercing7.62mm, but that's what the AC-130 has guns for; bigger ones. smile.gif
StealthSigma
QUOTE (Doc Chase @ Sep 24 2010, 10:06 AM) *
Well I suppose that raises the question of just how much heat a blimp with electric motors would create.


Not much. In airplanes a significant portion of the power from engines is utilized to generate lift. In a lighter than air craft the lift isn't created by the engines. They only need enough power to overcome air resistance. Additionally, SAM missiles typically require an impact in order to detonate. Light enough material and the SAM just rips through the LTA portion of the craft. Compartmentalize the LTA portions and ground weapons are really quite ineffective against it as the leaks will be small and contained. grinbig.gif

The major problem with zepps was that they had all their lighter than air gas in only a few compartments. Anti-aircraft flak would rip a large number of holes in its skin and cause a huge amount of gas loss.
Semerkhet
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Sep 23 2010, 02:07 PM) *
*shrug* By the fluff, I thought I read that that LAVs are definitely filling the 'heavy air support' role right now, which is the AC-130's big deal. They aren't replacing the 'massive cargo capacity' role of the C-130, but that's a completely different role. smile.gif

I mentioned the zeppelin because of this: "A high altitude combat version was also deployed in Tsimshian, mounting laser weaponry and carrying aerial combat drones." But I understand if you wrongly think that combat zeppelins aren't the awesomest thing ever.

If you want to get old school I believe it was a zeppelin-mounted railgun that featured early in William Gibson's "Count Zero."
Doc Chase
@StealthSigma: True, though I'm curious as to the construction of the airbags now, whether or not they have self-sealing capability.

The other thing is - how many people are even using anti-air weaponry that aren't Stingers or Russo-Chinese variants? nyahnyah.gif
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