Human chars with always seem to get a really bad statline. The 200 BP attribute cap just really shifts in favor of metahumans when they get at least 3 extra attribute points outside of that cap.

I let humans spend 220 BPs.

That 200 BP cap doesn't apply to edge, magic, or resonance. And humans get extra edge, which can REALLY level the playing field. I've seen human snipers pull off amazing shots because of that extra edge. We're talking shooting a target they can't even see through a wall, the floor, and another wall. And this was a mundane PC, not a mage or adept.

I have never really had any problems with creating human characters using BP.

However, since SR4A makes raising Attributes so expensive, I can see Metahumans having an advantage in that regard, as they get the expensive increases for 'free'.

You can always use Karma Generation from Runner's Companion, if you want to make them pay more precisely for what they choose. It needs to be updated to SR4A, though (esp. the higher Attribute costs). Not sure, whether there is an FAQ around detailing what to change for that purpose.

With the increased Attribute costs, I would highly recommend not counting the Special Attributes against the spending limit for Attributes (just like in the BP system, and unlike the original SR4 Karma system). Otherwise you are really having problems creating characters that rely on those.

Bye
Thanee

1pt of Edge is not something to be crowing about.

The only way playing a Human has any benefit is if meta-humans are constantly getting social penalties, or if you're working in a role where attributes really aren't all that important like the offsite Hacker/rigger.

I think that's a good idea.

The 200 BP cap does hurt humans, in that it limits what concepts can be played - if you want a street samurai who is also a face, or any other concept that requires decent physical and mental Attributes, you almost have to play a metahuman. Not to fit the concept, but because a human won't even be able to soft-max the Attributes that you want to. Currently, humans are limited to roles where you only need high physical stats, or only need high mental stats, or only need two or three high Attributes. Which, honestly, covers most character concepts. But for those it doesn't, it would be nice to be able to make a decent human build.

Maybe humans shouldn't be applicable to all roles. They are, after all, only one sub-species of the broader species. You wouldn't send a chihuahua to herd sheep.

As the 400 BP is for competent, but not world class shadowrunners I see no problem with the 200BPs. Later on in the game you will be spending karma to raise your attributes and skills so it should not be so much an issue. You aren't playing 10-20 year grizzeled veteran shadowrunners (age mid 30s to low 40s), but rather ages under 30 shadowrunners.

Humans really shine under the karma system compared to trolls and orks. I prefer the karma system myself so you can buy lots of low skills to be a well fleshed out character rather than the min maxing that is favored by the BP system.

My main issue with the 200 BP limit is the vast majority of it just gets you to average. 160 of those 200 points gets you straight 3's, so unless you want a dump stat you really only have 40 points to play with. You can still make a decent character for some ideas, but others have a hard time. In the end I think it motivates dump stats too much. This hits humans more since they do not have bonus stats, but it hits everyone.

That's as much a problem with BP and Karma valuing things completely differently as anything else. Having, say, 5 in one stat and 1 in the other to start, then raising the 1 to a 3 with Karma will cost you 40 BP and 15 Karma. Having a 3 in both stats and raising one to a 5 will cost you 40 BP and 45 Karma. The first character gets to the same place much, much faster, so whether it was intentional or not the rules heavily encourage you to start out as specialized as possible and then diversify your abilities with Karma rather than start out diversified and then specialize with Karma. Metahumans really just enhance this problem.

1 free point of Edge is a free 10 pts for being human, it also gives a increased edge cap. If you have 7 Edge you can probably spend edge on every important roll you make in a session. Also given that edge has so many other uses its not something to sneeze at.
The attribute thing is fair, but its not going to stop you from achieving massive die pools.

It's okay for humans to be slightly weaker in a couple of places (mostly just Body and Strength). And you *should* be using various human social mods, letting them be less distinctive, etc., if it's appropriate to your game.

The racial BP cost and the racial benefits could stand to be a little more balanced, but it's not the fault of the 200BP limit.

That's not the point. The point is that the other metahumans get at least 3 points for free because of their racial minimums, and STILL get to spend 200BPs on attribute. Racial imbalance is the problem.

I personally feel that augmentation really levels the playing field here.

Not exactly for 'free'. All but humans have a racial BP cost . Let's compare:

Human [0 BP] :: +1 EDG ==> effective gain 10 BP
Ork [20 BP] :: +3 BOD, +2 STR ==> effective gain 30 BP minus effect on CHA,LOG max
Dwarf [25 BP] :: +1 BOD, +2 STR, +1 WIL ==> effective gain 15 BP
Elf [30 BP] :: +1 AGI, +2 CHA ==> effective gain 0 BP
Troll [40 BP] :: +4 BOD, +4 STR ==> effective gain 40 BP minus effect on CHA (double), INT, LOG

Without taking the negative effects into account, humans are in the middle of the pack. With the negatives, they come out near the top.

Indeed, pbangarth. That also assumes that those points are where you want them; extra Strength doesn't really help you if your character never wanted it anyway, and the same goes (in reverse) for the lowered-maximum stats (because it's +15BP to offset that, and you're forever locked out of the highest scores). Reduced max Reaction? No thank you.

Call me crazy but I have never been a fan of point caps, in games I run if you want to blow 350 points on attributes I'll let you, some people rely more heavilly on raw natural ability than others and it frees my players to come up with some truly interesting concepts to play with.

The difference between the +1 Edge for a human and the other racial bonuses is that Edge is not one of the core Attributes. The metahuman bonuses all mean that they can effectively put in more than 200 points into core Attributes. Even elves, which come out 10 points behind a human, get to effectively put 230 points into Attributes.

Sure, the metaraces also have higher to go to be "average" for their metatype, but in actual practice, Attributes with bonuses are ones that you don't need to put as many points into. An ork, for example, is right at the sweet spot. A Body of 4 and Strength of 3 are good for most roles - maybe you will boost them a bit for more front-line combat types. But if I wanted to make the aforementioned street samurai who is also a face, the ork is better to do it with because I can have Body, Agility, and Reaction at 5, Strength at 3, and still have 110 points that I can put into mental Attributes. A human would only have 60, not enough to have a Charisma of 4 without having 2's in every other stat. With 20 more points to spend, he could get Intuition: 3, Logic: 2, and Willpower: 3.

Looking at it, those 20 points don't make humans unbalancing compared to other metatypes, or let you create an ubermensch (the example that I gave is only soft-maxed in his primary Attributes for his role, and above average in the Attribute for his secondary role, with Willpower that is only average). They merely make a few more concepts more viable.

I agree that Ork in SR4A (like Dwarf in SR3) has the best combination of useful freebies and minor penalties, plus no need for metahuman re-sizing. For many roles, you will go ahead and use those points. Still, points spent in Attributes are points not spent elsewhere… The 200BP limit is more like training wheels than balance.

He means "free" against the 200point camp, nto the 400 point cap. The attribute points metahumans get from their racial minimums are in addition to the 200 point cap as the metahuman cost doesn't come out of the attribute cap. So, in reality:

Effective BP for Attributes:

Humans: 200 total
Orks: 250 BP
Elves: 230 BP
Trolls: 280 BP
Dwarves:230 BP

What they are saying is that the humans aren't afforded the opportunity to equal out in attributes if they choose spend the points. It's a distinct change from the older systems where instead of having racial maximums, the characters actually had penalties. There's a distinct difference between the Troll having a -2 Charisma in 3e and just a racial maximum of 4 in 4e.

Maybe for elves and dwarves. Body is as close to a universally useful attribute as it gets, and orks essentially get 3 Body for 20 BP. So even if you don't value Strength or their vision enhancement at all and intend to buy a point of Edge, an ork still matches up well with a human point for point. Toss in any strength spending and suddenly orks will typically have more BP laying around to spend on augmentations than a similar human build will. When it comes to building a generalist, orks are currently the true master race. Their high minimums and mild cap penalties mean that you can come out of chargen with a character that is at the very least average in every attribute, and still have points left over for augmentations.

Still, the situation is hardly grim. Shadowrun is a game that often rewards specialization, for one thing, and sometimes going all out and nabbing 6 or 7 Edge as a human or running a Restricted Gear Muscle Toner 4 Elf with 10 Agility can really pay off. It really depends on table environment as well. A single point difference in Charisma isn't a big deal on paper, but when dealing with a prejudiced bouncer you might suddenly be looking at a 3 point swing in favor of a human. That's a problem given that the fluff indicates that orks and trolls still face more suspicion and hostility in upscale areas than the other metatypes.

Right. You should really be giving some problems for orks (when appropriate). Ork players shouldn't feel like this is gunning for them: they chose Ork, and it's a great choice.

I tend to spring it on ork faces precisely because they have the skills to overcome the situation. That way it's the occasional mild indignity but not really something that will spoil the run. The only time it was a real problem for a team was in a situation where I gave them some heads up that they were dealing with a real drekhole and probably shouldn't count on his support. I'm a big believer in firing warning shots, but if they ignore those, then well...

This seems like actually such a minor issue it's not even worth arguing about.

Like, if people do or do not want to give an extra 20 BP to the attribute cap for humans, that really seems like a fairly negligible difference. I think that the game works just fine with or without this change.

What? On Dumpshock??

I know right!

So, yeah, the Metas get to spend more on Attributes and less on Skills (or Gear).

Bye
Thanee

Really, it all comes down to this. Well, this and the fact that SR4 to SR4a changed the karma cost of raising an Attribute from 3x new rating to 5x new rating while skills stayed the same. This means that buying up attributes at chargen is considerably more efficient than before for character growth.

Attributes have always been the top thing. 1 point of Strength costs as much as 1 point in the Athletics Group, and provides more than the same effect. There are even attribute only tests which help determine things like "do I flip out and kill everyone" or, "am I now addicted to Cram?" which no skill can help you with.

There is no damn reason not to allow humans a higher attribute cap. There are more humans by far than any other race, so there should be more variation among them. That sounds pretty good for a bullshit reason to balance the game, right?

It's certainly not as important as all that. Are you also angry about Dwarves and Elves? They're 'penalized' as well, if you're comparing to the 'better' races. The rule is 200BP (half your points) on Attributes, so that you don't spend all your points on Attributes. If you don't like it at your table, change it. You don't even have to use 400BP characters, or BP-gen at all.

Again, not really. You can get the same attributes for less as a meta if you play your cards right, so the metatype cost isn't necessarily much of a burden at all. It's entirely possible to have your cake and eat it too. The only real drawback is that it's less flexible than pure free points.

But the complaint is, that they can effectively spend more points on Attributes.

So my point is, that if they do, they will spend less elsewhere.

What you effectively get from an Orc or Troll (only those are really 'problematic' as they offer much more Attribute bonuses than you can buy from their racial cost) is some free Strength (which is one of the most unimportant Attributes in Shadowrun) and (mostly mental) Attribute maximum limits.

Elves and Dwarves can shift some points from Skills and stuff to Attributes at the cost of one point of Edge, basically. Seems fair enough to me, especially considering that Edge is the most powerful Attribute in the game (probably about on par with Magic).

Bye
Thanee

I run on Kramagen, yeah. But this is a rules balance discussion. It is about people trying to create a more balanced game for everyone who might want to play. I really don't understand how basically telling me to shut up and "play however" is helping with that.

Kruger spelled it out pretty plainly. Every race other than humans effectively gets to spend more points at chargen on attributes.

I was pointing out how, due to the changes in Attribute cost, buying up attributes at chargen is one of the most effective possible uses of your points.
The top three most cost-effective things to do with BP gen are 1) bond foci 2) increase your complex forms and 3) soft-max as many attributes as possible.
The number one, most effective thing to do in karmagen is to pick a non-human race. Straight up. It's either free points (as RAW,) or basically free points (as errataed from der Deutch.)

This is clearly unbalanced. Though, I guess you can always re-balance it by playing a Human and taking a massive Prejudice quality since that's less of a penalty for humans than for any other race. I guess the game is biased against non-racist humans.

I didn't say that. I just offered the obvious solution to your evident emotional involvement. Yes, Ork is generally best; better than everything. Humans aren't particularly worse than Dwarves or Elves. There's "no damn reason" to make a big deal out of one particular race; if your actual problem is race imbalance for everyone who might want to play, rebalance *all* of them. Don't make up special slapdash rules for just for humans. While you're at it, rebalance the metavariants, too; they're worse.

The real problem is a system that causes people to worry about things like 'chargen spending efficiency'.

As much as Orks are being mentioned as the 'most powerful' race here due to their great BP bonus, I can't help but notice that all of my (metahuman) characters (Yes, all) have been human or elf (or a variant of such). I also can't help but notice that most builds I've seen posted are one of these races. I really haven't seen many troll characters unless the concept is "Rawr, melee". I don't know that I've seen many concepts that run with ork. In fact, thinking about it, I'm not even 100% sure that I've actually been in a game that had an ork in it. I could be wrong, espcially with some of the larger games I've been in... but even if I've forgotten one or two...

So, yeah, I don't know that humans really need all that much help. I mean, (unless you go super crazy with maxing), an elf and human Sam are going to be nearly identical, and the human actually has a potential advantage over the elf, because the human can keep Charisma at 1 or 2, thus giving a bonus edge and 20-30 extra BP to work with in exchange for 1 less agility (Oh, and I guess no low-light vision, as if that is actually a big deal at 100 nuyen to fix)

I don't think most people here have a "problem" with anyone letting humans spend 220 point into stats if thats how you feel that totally cool. But i do think human is a fairly balanced choice. I agree that Orc is strong, as is Troll, and if the negative social aspects don't crop up then players are better off taking one of those races min/max wise. But thats not here nor there.

And I virtually never play elves even when I realize it would be mechanically advantageous for me to do so. Our own biases shouldn't really count for much here.

Just because Humans may be less "sub-optimal" than one choice for one build, that doesn't mean balance exists.

If you want to play a brute samurai and you're not picking an Ork, that is a personal choice. I don't think that game balance should revolve around the assumption that choosing based on asthetics will keep a superior option in check. It's not easy to put a point value on sexyness.

I've been at tables that were 80% Ork.

All it takes is 5BPs for Human Looking, and Ork social penalties are gone.

Except now they get social penalties with other metatypes.....

I'm tempted to make an ork in a game you're in just to be different.

This is a change I never liked. I really dislike the setting change that now everyone is just as smart, charismatic, etc as everyone else, but they may not cap as high. No in SR Trolls are just dumber than the rest of the races, the average troll should have around a 1 logic. Given how small the attribute scale is, a 1 still represents a functional attribute.

This is almost inarguably a problem in and of itself. Also '80% Ork' is my new favorite phrase.

Forget wasting 5BP, Smokeskin. Minor (ish) cosmetic surgery.

Metatype change costs 0.30 Essence and costs 25,000 , so you aren't really saving BP by going the cosmetic modification route. It becomes a question of which is more needed for a particular build - points to put in qualities, or points/Essence to get from resources.


Personally, I favor the house rule because it lets humans fit into a slightly broader selection of roles. It doesn't make ork a less optimal choice, BP-wise, but it does make it more likely that someone who wants to play a human for a certain role will do it anyways, because at least it is doable with 220 BP.

That's true, Glyph. I was thinking of not going whole hog, just tone it down a little. You're certainly right for the real Human-Looking equivalent.

I'm not sure there are many roles you're blocked from doing because you lack 2 attribute points, but it's true that allowing 220BP doesn't really hurt much. It also doesn't address any of the real problems, but they're big and annoying. :/

Does Limiting Resources to 50 BP hurt Technical characters.

And realy the 200BP on stats thing is a minor balance issues. If you think it's not fair in your game.. change it.
Or better yet, switch back to the Karma gen (with the AH errata) or Priority style char gen

Considering how much cheaper a lot of stuff got in 4e, I don't think it hurt them too much. A lot of cyberware went way down in price, and drones/vehicles are laughably cheap.

Not to mention that lots of metatypes look a little out of place. I give players penalities to the ettiquite rolls to look like they belong somewhere based on race. Sometimes happens in reverse "ork underground for example" but not often.

For most starting characters, anything outside of their main role is generally in that DP range right on the cusp of "reasonable chance of failure/(critical) glitch." The difference, from a "is it even safe to try this" standpoint between 6 dice and 8 dice is not inconsiderable, especially after negative modifiers. Sure, there's Edge, but BP is such a harsh bitch when it comes to squeezing out a character who's useful on more than one or two fronts. A touch more agility or a touch more reaction can mean the difference between being seen/moving first or being dead. A touch more Willpower or Charisma could keep your combat monster from suiciding on a squad of KE.

It is certainly not unimportant.

But, yeah, BP has problems. Karma is generally better, except that it gives mages and mancers a kick in the Johnny bits.

Speaking of which, does anyone know where to find that post with the changes, AH put together?

Bye
Thanee

Wait this is a bad thing?