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sabs
The Dwarf is happy though

He gets +2 body +3 str
So he can wear just a smidgeon more armor
Doc Chase
QUOTE (sabs @ Sep 30 2010, 05:33 PM) *
The Dwarf is happy though

He gets +2 body +3 str
So he can wear just a smidgeon more armor


Dwarves don't wear armor, they plate a trash can and punch four holes in it for arms and legs.

Trolls do the same thing, just with dumpsters. Everyone else has to make do.
Semerkhet
QUOTE (Kruger @ Sep 30 2010, 11:29 AM) *
Honestly, I think that if you're gonna House Rule that, you might as well just ignore the math of the rule entirely and make judgment calls. Otherwise, your Trolls will just become walking tanks with their 30+ armor ratings.

Even with just the elves in my group I'm using judgment calls to limit how many layers of armor can be practically worn. For instance, if someone is wearing their custom-fitted milspec armor, they can only wear the form-fitting underneath and nothing else. The elf samurai in the group has Body 8 and Strength 8 and ends up wearing the half-suit form-fitting and an Armor Jacket most of the time. She often has a set of the Securtech PPP stashed in the van, and so can quickly get to Armor Jacket (8/6) +1/2 FFBA (4/1) + Securetech piecemeal (2/6) + Rating 3 Orthoskin + Titanium Bone Lacing (1/1) = 18 Ballistic/18 Impact.

For encumbrance the FFBA counts half and the Orthoskin and Bone Lacing do not count, so we have a total of (8+6+2+1+2+5) = 24. Her (B+S)*2 = 32 so she's fine. Note that I'm counting each of the Securetech pieces separately so that the whole set counts as 7 toward encumbrance rather than the 4 you'd get if you divided the total in half.

So 18/18 armor sounds pretty impressive, but with the power level of my game they are regularly going up against opponents that can fill up her Stun track with automatic weapons fire in one or two IPs if she isn't careful about cover. Also, that's her job. Part of her role, besides shooting fools in the face, is to be the target that draws fire from the less-armored teammates.

By my judgement, a troll with even better Body and Strength couldn't get past that 18/18 rating because it's not practical to take the armor stacking any further than that. I guess the troll could heft a ballistic shield as well and fire the assault rifle one-handed. smile.gif


Edit: On the other end of the spectrum, the magician in the group has Body 4 and Strength 1. He can't even wear an Armor Jacket by itself without penalties. So one of the (intended) side effects of the rule change is that characters that use Strength as a dump stat aren't going to be stacking armor at all.
Mäx
QUOTE (Semerkhet @ Sep 30 2010, 07:15 PM) *
The elf samurai in the group has Body 8 and Strength 8 and ends up wearing the half-suit form-fitting and an Armor Jacket most of the time. She often has a set of the Securtech PPP stashed in the van, and so can quickly get to Armor Jacket (8/6) +1/2 FFBA (4/1) + Securetech piecemeal (2/6) + Rating 3 Orthoskin + Titanium Bone Lacing (1/1) = 18 Ballistic/18 Impact.

That player much have really wanted to to play an elf to make a build with exception atribute(body) and genetic optimization(body), instead of just making an ork instead that can get Body 8 naturally.
Semerkhet
QUOTE (Mäx @ Sep 30 2010, 12:47 PM) *
That player much have really wanted to to play an elf to make a build with exception atribute(body) and genetic optimization(body), instead of just making an ork instead that can get Body 8 naturally.

The Body 8 comes from the Titanium Bone Lacing. Augmented max Body for elves is 9, so no exceptional attributes needed.

I agree it would still have been a bit more efficient in the Build Point department to make an ork samurai, but this player wanted to do the subtly augmented elf girl (based on the Dawn* comic character) that can suddenly and unexpectedly pull out a giant can of whoop-ass. Thus Wired Reflexes, natural-looking Orthoskin, Muscle Aug and Toner, and Bone Lacing rather cyberlimbs and Muscle Replacement (which I judge to be much more bulky than the bioware versions). Granted she's not walking through a MAD detector without setting off a klaxon but she doesn't "appear" to be massively augmented to the naked eye.


*We've already given this guy massive amounts of sh*t about his deadly femme fatale fetish with this character, so no need to rehash it here. smile.gif
Kruger
Ahh yes, the dainty elven femme fatale with rubbery skin and weighs 180 pounds, lol.
Mäx
QUOTE (Semerkhet @ Sep 30 2010, 07:58 PM) *
The Body 8 comes from the Titanium Bone Lacing. Augmented max Body for elves is 9, so no exceptional attributes needed.

Bone Lacing doesn't augmend your body, only implant that does is Suprathyroid Gland.
Bone Lacing only gives a bonus to body for damage resistance test. cyber.gif
Semerkhet
QUOTE (Mäx @ Sep 30 2010, 01:14 PM) *
Bone Lacing doesn't augmend your body, only implant that does is Suprathyroid Gland.
Bone Lacing only gives a bonus to body for damage resistance test. cyber.gif

My bad, looking at his character sheet the character does have Suprathyroid. embarrassed.gif

Edit: I note that Suprathyroid is +1 to Body(and others). Thinking back I am pretty sure that I accepted the argument that Titanium Bone Lacing, an enhancement that massively increases the strength of your skeletal system, would have the Body bonus also count for calculating encumbrance. Even if you chose not to accept that interpretation, the character's Body+Strength x 2 would still be 28, more than enough to offset the 24 point combination of layered armor in my example.
Mäx
QUOTE (Semerkhet @ Sep 30 2010, 08:21 PM) *
My bad, looking at his character sheet the character does have Suprathyroid. embarrassed.gif

Well for that body 8 he should still have at least one of exceptional attribute/genetic opimization/metagenetic improvment, unless the body 8 was from you misunderstanding the rules for bone lacing.
Darkeus
QUOTE (Karoline @ Sep 26 2010, 12:58 AM) *
As much as Orks are being mentioned as the 'most powerful' race here due to their great BP bonus, I can't help but notice that all of my (metahuman) characters (Yes, all) have been human or elf (or a variant of such). I also can't help but notice that most builds I've seen posted are one of these races. I really haven't seen many troll characters unless the concept is "Rawr, melee". I don't know that I've seen many concepts that run with ork. In fact, thinking about it, I'm not even 100% sure that I've actually been in a game that had an ork in it. I could be wrong, espcially with some of the larger games I've been in... but even if I've forgotten one or two...

So, yeah, I don't know that humans really need all that much help. I mean, (unless you go super crazy with maxing), an elf and human Sam are going to be nearly identical, and the human actually has a potential advantage over the elf, because the human can keep Charisma at 1 or 2, thus giving a bonus edge and 20-30 extra BP to work with in exchange for 1 less agility (Oh, and I guess no low-light vision, as if that is actually a big deal at 100 nuyen to fix)



Lol. You know, it is funny. I am actually running my first campaign where I have no humans at all! In every campaign I have ran, I have either had all humans or maybe an elf thrown in there. No orks or trolls and no dwarfs. Never, ever.

I get a group of people who are used to playing Pathfinder and what happens? I get two elves, one Ork, one Troll, and I have another player coming in and I have no clue what they will make. Maybe he will finally add some good old base human to the whole deal.

Now that I think of it, I don't even have any major NPC's or characters that I have made that are Trolls, Orks, or Dwarves. Hell, my "Mary Sue" Big bad from all of my campaigns is an Elf. A very pissed off, cybered up, and well funded Elf. smile.gif

Did I mention her really powerful human Mage Partner? spin.gif

Semerkhet
QUOTE (Mäx @ Sep 30 2010, 01:26 PM) *
Well for that body 8 he should still have at least one of exceptional attribute/genetic opimization/metagenetic improvment, unless the body 8 was from you misunderstanding the rules for bone lacing.

Please see my edit above. You were too quick for me.
Yerameyahu
I don't think anecdotal evidence is very useful here. Personally, *all* my characters in SR4 are Orks. All mine in SR3 were Dwarves or Elves. That's not very scientific. biggrin.gif
KarmaInferno
I have a tendency to find out what everyone else is playing, and deliberately play something different.

I have never, ever, played an elf in any game, though. I'm not sure why.




-k
sabs
QUOTE (KarmaInferno @ Sep 30 2010, 07:40 PM) *
I have a tendency to find out what everyone else is playing, and deliberately play something different.

I have never, ever, played an elf in any game, though. I'm not sure why.




-k

Because elves are dirty daisy chewing keeblers?
Mäx
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Sep 30 2010, 08:35 PM) *
I don't think anecdotal evidence is very useful here. Personally, *all* my characters in SR4 are Orks. All mine in SR3 were Dwarves or Elves. That's not very scientific. biggrin.gif

Yeah, by going with anecdotal evidense i would have to conclude that Dryad is an OP race, as i have more builds that are Dryads then i have builds of any other single race. grinbig.gif
Semerkhet
QUOTE (sabs @ Sep 30 2010, 01:42 PM) *
Because elves are dirty keebler daisy chewing scum?

It's amazing the amount of diversity in terms of background, culture, and motivations that you can get in a group made up entirely of elves. I attribute this directly to the setting fact that elves were born in a mostly* evenly distributed fashion all over the world.

* I know the fluff mentions things like more elves being born in the former Ireland but it's generally true that in the early years of the Awakening Mongolia had about as many, per capita, elves birthed to humans as did Missouri.
Darkeus
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Sep 30 2010, 02:35 PM) *
I don't think anecdotal evidence is very useful here. Personally, *all* my characters in SR4 are Orks. All mine in SR3 were Dwarves or Elves. That's not very scientific. biggrin.gif


Well of course it isn't scientific!

Just something I noticed about my various groups of runners and NPC's throughout my long years of playing. smile.gif

It does make a point though. Play what you want to play, not because it gives you the best mechanical advantage. We don't play to win the game here, just make cool ass stories and experiences. So what if Orks get some perks? They also die fast and are exploited to the max. Some people like to kill them for shits and giggles as well. Being an Ork isn't that cool in the long view.... smile.gif
Doc Chase
QUOTE (sabs @ Sep 30 2010, 06:42 PM) *
Because elves are dirty daisy chewing keeblers?


Seconded!
sabs
I'm playing a Chinese Troll smile.gif
It makes me LoL
Kruger
The distribution of metatypes comes largely from our own prejudices, preconceptions, and self images I'd imagine.

Trolls are the largest gap away from what we actually are. Some people are short, some people are tall, but I'd be willing to guess nobody who plays Shadowrun weighs around 700 pounds and is eight feet or more tall. Obviously not all, but a lot of people create characters to be an idealized version of themselves, or at least some kind of idealized vision. Trolls are giant, and often clumsy, and socially awkward. Enough players are clumsy and socially awkward in real life, they don't always want to be that way in a game too, even if it comes with brute strength. Though one of my favorite characters of all time was a friend's troll.

Elves are obviously the opposite of that. They're supposed to be graceful and attractive and likable, plus a little mystical and fantastic. They are also almost identical to humans in appearance, so the player doesn't have to assume the role of somebody short, or with tusks. No surprise there why they are popular choices. In the older versions of the game they had no drawbacks either, so they were a power-gamer's ideal if they were willing to drop the Priority/Points on metahumanity. The only reason they aren't the power-gamer's choice in 4e is that...

Orks have the most benefits with the least drawbacks in 4e. They are the new power-gamer choice, supplanting Elves. Since 4e only imposed caps on attributes instead of negative modifiers like in the earlier editions, a player with no interest in capping the attribute anyway is not hindered by the "lower" Charisma and Logic of an Ork. Ork makes a full reversal from being probably the least played metatype after Dwarf in SR1-3 to one of the most common in 4e.

I also never played Elves because of their pooftery image. Maybe it was just years of being around the kinds of people who typically played Elves, lol.
Semerkhet
QUOTE (Kruger @ Sep 30 2010, 02:18 PM) *
I also never played Elves because of their pooftery image. Maybe it was just years of being around the kinds of people who typically played Elves, lol.


I can totally sympathize with this sentiment. OTOH, Shadowrun is the one game setting I know of where the Tolkien'esque stereotype of elves can be totally turned on its head. Since elves were born into and raised in every culture on the planet there can be just as much cultural diversity in elves as there is in RL humanity. To me this is a breath of fresh air compared to the tired stereotypes of elves trotted out in just about every other setting that has elves in it.
SleepIncarnate
QUOTE (Semerkhet @ Sep 30 2010, 09:51 AM) *
Shadowrun rules through all the editions has been notorious, imo, for their vulnerability to min/maxing and poor balance between character types. The only truly effective way to handle this is at the level of the table, less so at the level of Dumpshock or the level of developers writing errata. So if you think that raising the attribute cap for humans to 220 BP solves your problems, then that's fabulous. I love house rules and that one sounds just fine.

Any game and every game is vulnerable to min/maxing. Pick any rules system, character generation system, etc. and munchkins will find a way to abuse it.
Kruger
Yes, but old prejudices die hard. smile.gif

We had an old game of D&D. Just a casual game with a long time groupof habitual drunks, but the party was almost entirely human and decidedly "racist" against Elves. Well, one of our players got divorced and showed up with her new boyfriend and he played an Elf (she was an elf too, but she'd played with us long enough to be used to the teasing, and it was equal opportunity anyway). Apparently he wasn't ready for the kind of backlash from some of the other players, because he never came back to the game. The funny part was, nobody remembered being mean to him. He was just socially fragile I guess.

And while good role players can play all sorts of Elves, the Shadowrun universe set up the very prototypical Elven nation when it created Tir Oregon. I've always found it an interesting contradiction that the game both tries to break, and reinforce Elf "stereotypes" at the same time.
sabs
that reminds me of a game I played in where one of the guys brought his 20 year old girlfriend.

She was born, after everyone else had graduated HighSchool. We were pretty much all old enough to be her parents. And it was tough.. people made comments about having underwear older than her wink.gif and stuff.

it didn't help that she was.. not skinny, and that 3 of the guys kept making fat jokes. (not aimed at her, but aimed at npcs and stuff)
Darkeus
QUOTE (Kruger @ Sep 30 2010, 04:00 PM) *
And while good role players can play all sorts of Elves, the Shadowrun universe set up the very prototypical Elven nation when it created Tir Oregon. I've always found it an interesting contradiction that the game both tries to break, and reinforce Elf "stereotypes" at the same time.


Well, I mean. We see how wonderfully the Tir broke in the end.

Even perfect little Elven kingdoms go boom in the Shadowrun world. smile.gif
Semerkhet
QUOTE (Kruger @ Sep 30 2010, 03:00 PM) *
And while good role players can play all sorts of Elves, the Shadowrun universe set up the very prototypical Elven nation when it created Tir Oregon. I've always found it an interesting contradiction that the game both tries to break, and reinforce Elf "stereotypes" at the same time.

Agreed on the contradiction. I can only imagine that the IEs are mad as hell that they can't just instantly restore "elven culture" as they remember it from the 4th Age. There are so few of them and so many of the diverse new elves that their influence, even if individually outsized, is hopelessly diluted.

The one elf in my group that adheres to any of the Tolkien stereotypes does so in a very satirical way. His parents emigrated to the Tir countryside and totally and literally latched on to Tolkien's work as a guide on how to raise their child. So he plays the character as analogous to a child of an isolated hippie commune or a cult that is thrown into the real world and forced to adapt. It makes for some really funny moments roleplaying with the hard-bitten former Ancients member from the Barrens who wouldn't recognize "elven culture" if it bit her on the ass.
Whipstitch
QUOTE (Thanee @ Sep 30 2010, 07:45 AM) *
Natural Strength. smile.gif

You can still easily have Strength 5 with Muscle Augmentation. grinbig.gif


Um, I know. I made the post you quoted in response to a guy who was saying that strength is worthless so a human's 1 is as good as an ork's 3. I actually consider an ork's base 3 to be a sweet spot for hitting runner level athletics competence after you factor in Muscle Augmentation 2 and Synthacardium 3. You can skip the Athletics group and just grab Gymnastics while still defaulting to 7 dice on a Climbing or Sprinting test that way. 7 is not a great total, but it is a pretty safe one when combined with some climbing gear, since the real danger on a climbing test is eating a glitch, particularly since climbs are extended tests. You can roll 5 dice that way while climbing a dry sheer wall with some Gecko Tape, and that's actually a pretty important threshold since you're no longer eating a glitch every time you roll a pair of 1s. Crit glitches become a pretty serious risk on a human with the same gear but only 1 base strength, since then you're sitting on only 3 dice. Of course, you could spend more money and pick up Restricted gear and Muscle Aug 4, I suppose, but then the ork could actually take Human Looking and still come out ahead of you on points and essence cost due to using the lower rating piece of 'ware. Really, the cheapest option for a human would probably be hitting 3 Strength with Rating 2 Muscle Augs and spending just enough points to avoid Defaults. That's a pretty decent option (although it'd be cheapest if you get the skills while in play) but you don't really get the benefit of being able to carry as much as an ork or fight better that way. It doesn't really bother me much though, since I have a hard time feeling bad for any PC with 6 Edge.
Saint Sithney
When people are talking about "min-maxing", the "min" they're talking about is ~7 dice. That's the sweet spot where you can pretty regularly hit twice and almost always hit once, so critical glitches are quite rare.

Min-maxing is about making a character which is good at something and adequate at most things. It's not "being a munchkin" but gaming the system to make the most functional character within the intent of the rules, even if that character doesn't make too much sense as a person with a history and all that.

Munchkins, on the other hand, purposely exploit loopholes and broken rules to mess up games. Things like taking a Loyalty 6 Connection 18 ritual magic group that loves killing people as a Contact. Stacking layer after layer of FFBA... then getting the previously mentioned mages to possess said armor with Force 12 spirits to give you triple digit hardened armor. These things are how a Munchkin operates.

Choosing your race based on how it fits your archetype is hardly "munchkins being munchkins."
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