Full Version: Is a generalist build even viable?
After taking in the advice(grateful btw) of the forums here, and playing around with the system a bit, Ive basically gotta ask: can a generalist survive this game? Can a character with points split between, say, face\street sam or an infiltrator\melee master or whatnot actually compete with the insane dice pools specialists can throw out(and as a consequence, the bar being set higher by the GM to compensate). Assume that yes, character will be teamed with more 'optimized' individuals.
Karmagen!!!
QUOTE (Teryon @ Sep 30 2010, 05:27 PM) 
After taking in the advice(grateful btw) of the forums here, and playing around with the system a bit, Ive basically gotta ask: can a generalist survive this game? Can a character with points split between, say, face\street sam or an infiltrator\melee master or whatnot actually compete with the insane dice pools specialists can throw out(and as a consequence, the bar being set higher by the GM to compensate). Assume that yes, character will be teamed with more 'optimized' individuals.
Depends by what you mean by "compete." Will they match up die for die? Of course not. But unless the specialists are doing absolutely everything they can to be top of the world in one niche, a character who splits dice between two niches can often come within 3 or 4 dice, which is more than enough to occasionally get lucky and pants the best of the best on occasion. Frankly though, if your GM's knee jerk reaction is to always raise the bar, then, well, you probably have either a GM who likes a bit of power gaming (which is fine) or a GM who doesn't really understand the concept of unintended consequences. Players learn from their environment-- spawning a world filled with Olympic or designated marksman level shooters may very well just teach the players that maxed out combat pools are necessary, which is frankly self-defeating behavior if your intention is to keep dice levels at a certain happy medium.
Double post.
Yes.
QUOTE (Teryon @ Sep 30 2010, 06:27 PM)
After taking in the advice(grateful btw) of the forums here, and playing around with the system a bit, Ive basically gotta ask: can a generalist survive this game? Can a character with points split between, say, face\street sam or an infiltrator\melee master or whatnot actually compete with the insane dice pools specialists can throw out(and as a consequence, the bar being set higher by the GM to compensate). Assume that yes, character will be teamed with more 'optimized' individuals.
The short answer is "it depends". Not all builds are equal, and some don't mesh very well. Melee, in particular, is a hefty point sink, and combining it with something else can be problematic. But, combining two complementary roles can end with both of them being very viable (charisma tradition mage/face, infiltrator/gun bunny, etc), or with some loss of breadth in each category, you can specialize in two categories pretty well (sniper/drone rigger, etc).
So, in short, it takes some juggling, but it can be done. I recently did a mystic adept face build that rolls 20 dice for social, 17 dice for automatics, 12 dice for spellcasting/summoning, and a few other skills for flavor. Now, in order to do that, he's a wet paper bag in combat and god help him if he has to sneak into a heavily warded building, but hey^^
edit: also, what Whipstitch said
In my campaign, yes.
I can't speak to other GMs and honestly it really varies.
But both my campaign and the characters I build emphasize being able to do a decent array of things competently (5-10 Dice) while being able to do a few things very well (10-15 Dice), as opposed to being able to do one thing SUPERLATIVELY (20+ Dice).
I can't speak to other GMs and honestly it really varies.
But both my campaign and the characters I build emphasize being able to do a decent array of things competently (5-10 Dice) while being able to do a few things very well (10-15 Dice), as opposed to being able to do one thing SUPERLATIVELY (20+ Dice).
QUOTE (Neurosis @ Sep 30 2010, 06:48 PM)
In my campaign, yes.
I can't speak to other GMs and honestly it really varies.
But both my campaign and the characters I build emphasize being able to do a decent array of things competently (5-10 Dice) while being able to do a few things very well (10-15 Dice), as opposed to being able to do one thing SUPERLATIVELY (20+ Dice).
I can't speak to other GMs and honestly it really varies.
But both my campaign and the characters I build emphasize being able to do a decent array of things competently (5-10 Dice) while being able to do a few things very well (10-15 Dice), as opposed to being able to do one thing SUPERLATIVELY (20+ Dice).
Thats generally how I prefer to build my characters in any system(not that Ive played a million of them, but I digress). I suppose I listened to the OTHER resident munchkin too much. I too have the munchkin mindset, but tempered with the understanding that
A. Its not quite as much fun
B. The GM is not incompetent and will go out of his way(more so than usual anyway) to bring the pain down upon me
C. Robert Heinlein was right: Specialization is for insects. A human should be able to do 100 things fairly well.
Interesting that you note 5-10 dice as competently. I presumed 15 dice was competence, like 8-10 dice was 'decent', and anything above 15 as 'able to do it well;.
As everyone has already stated, it depends. If your team of runners is all generalists with a few areas they do well in, then yes a generalist can do well. If there's only one generalist amongst a lot of hyper specialists, it's going to be a lot less fun for the generalist player unless the GM finds ways to include tests for things the specialists forgot to take points in that the generalist did. I personally prefer karmagen (as has been pointed out) because it does build more well rounded "generalist" characters who still have a specialty without necessarily being the obscene levels of specialization people take in BP builds (20+ dice at creation). Even with like 500 BP builds, I'm often struggling to make those points work and have flavor in areas other than my freebie knowledge skills and still be good at my specialty (I often play characters who need multiple skill groups just for their core job, like hackers/TMs, infiltration, mages, etc).
QUOTE (SleepIncarnate @ Sep 30 2010, 07:04 PM)
As everyone has already stated, it depends. If your team of runners is all generalists with a few areas they do well in, then yes a generalist can do well. If there's only one generalist amongst a lot of hyper specialists, it's going to be a lot less fun for the generalist player unless the GM finds ways to include tests for things the specialists forgot to take points in that the generalist did. I personally prefer karmagen (as has been pointed out) because it does build more well rounded "generalist" characters who still have a specialty without necessarily being the obscene levels of specialization people take in BP builds (20+ dice at creation). Even with like 500 BP builds, I'm often struggling to make those points work and have flavor in areas other than my freebie knowledge skills and still be good at my specialty (I often play characters who need multiple skill groups just for their core job, like hackers/TMs, infiltration, mages, etc).
*nod* Unfortunately for ease of simplicity the GM's decided to stick with vanilla 400 BP this time around. One guy stopped playing back when SR3 first came out, the GM and his friend havent played since SR2 I believe. Which leaves the two munchkins who've learned SR4 enough
Honestly I feel your pain, Im trying to build a face\infiltrator(something of a not-so-nice private eye, easier to get info if you break into someone's home after all), and its quite difficult to get things working right even with going the adept route and a fist full of negative qualities. Id so much prefer a good 650pt karmagen setup. Ah, perhaps next game.
I have in my group mostly normal character. (Like you say: Generalists.... well, in spirit)
I have:
Street Sam: Melee & Firepower + Support (Medicine, First Aid, Tactics etc.)
Bio-Fighter: Melee & Firepower, Electronics & Infiltration
Ki-Adept: Murdering Machine, but versatile, Infiltrator
AND i have a TOTALY insane Pixie-Mage, Summoning & Sorcery machine. Can not dodge, can not infiltrate (relies on concealment), can't to ANYTHING but negotiate (And there she is handicapped because... she is a PIXIE)
But in fights, or in normal utility she completely overshadows the team. She has as only character 4 IP, ALWAYS has a summoned F6 spirit with her (but managed till now to not piss them off). And has several others bound.
Since i play overall very realistically and she is potential one of the best mages (bar Dragons and spirits) in the world (A few points magic and a few initiations more and she is there) she walked over all opposition up to now pretty straight forward. There were a few tight spots... but nothing Edge 7 couldn't fix, but overall there isn't much which can't get engulfed by an air spirit, or stunned by a F8 Stunball with 8 successes.
And yeah, it takes a bit from the game. The mix of disgust and envy of the other players is visible sometimes, and even ingame they keep getting high-profile jobs because of HER. I do a lot to try and keep theminvolved and important. But that fails sometimes. And in my eyes they are the ones who did it all right. (I tried to talk the pixie-player down a bit, but i took the gm-position over and the pixie was approved and already ran in the campaign... can't just throw her out)
Oh and dice pools: 15 is VERY high, it means at least 6 Attribute, 6 Skill and good equipment/enhancements. 7 skill is WORLD BEST, 7 is the BEST HUMAN who has EVER LIVED (before ~2030).
I have:
Street Sam: Melee & Firepower + Support (Medicine, First Aid, Tactics etc.)
Bio-Fighter: Melee & Firepower, Electronics & Infiltration
Ki-Adept: Murdering Machine, but versatile, Infiltrator
AND i have a TOTALY insane Pixie-Mage, Summoning & Sorcery machine. Can not dodge, can not infiltrate (relies on concealment), can't to ANYTHING but negotiate (And there she is handicapped because... she is a PIXIE)
But in fights, or in normal utility she completely overshadows the team. She has as only character 4 IP, ALWAYS has a summoned F6 spirit with her (but managed till now to not piss them off). And has several others bound.
Since i play overall very realistically and she is potential one of the best mages (bar Dragons and spirits) in the world (A few points magic and a few initiations more and she is there) she walked over all opposition up to now pretty straight forward. There were a few tight spots... but nothing Edge 7 couldn't fix, but overall there isn't much which can't get engulfed by an air spirit, or stunned by a F8 Stunball with 8 successes.
And yeah, it takes a bit from the game. The mix of disgust and envy of the other players is visible sometimes, and even ingame they keep getting high-profile jobs because of HER. I do a lot to try and keep theminvolved and important. But that fails sometimes. And in my eyes they are the ones who did it all right. (I tried to talk the pixie-player down a bit, but i took the gm-position over and the pixie was approved and already ran in the campaign... can't just throw her out)
Oh and dice pools: 15 is VERY high, it means at least 6 Attribute, 6 Skill and good equipment/enhancements. 7 skill is WORLD BEST, 7 is the BEST HUMAN who has EVER LIVED (before ~2030).
A lot of it REALLY depends on the levels of specialization we're talking about here and the kind of characters people are making. This stuff is all relative. For example, check out this old sheet:
Human Adept
Body: 3
Agility: 5
Reaction: 3
Strength: 3
Charisma: 5
Intuition: 3
Logic: 3
Willpower: 3
Edge: 2
Magic: 5
Essence: 6
Qualities:
Adept
Lost Loved One
SINner
Day Job (Small)
Fame (Local)
Mild Addiction: Novacoke
Mild Addiction: Deepweed
Contacts:
Coffin Club Owner: Loyalty 3, Connection 2
Fixer: Loyalty 2, Connection 3
Private Investigator: Loyalty 1, Connection 2
Throwing Weapons: 5
Gymnastics: 5
Blades: 4
Perception: 4
Stealth Group: 4
Influence Group: 4
Powers:
Missile Mastery
Power Throw: 3
Quick Draw
Nimble Fingers
Kinesics: 3
Enthralling Performance
Commanding Voice
Improved Ability (Gymnastics): 1
Free Knowledge Points
50k Nuyen worth of Lifestyle/Gear
This character performed at night clubs (usually of the coffin variety) as a day job and ran the shadows in part to follow up on a missing sibling. Now, I've ran groups where this character would definitely be considered weak sauce-- she's spending bp on attributes she doesn't really use, for one thing. Social Skills in particular can be boosted to the point that the Pornomancer sheet is a combination running joke/grim warning here on Dumpshock. 12 dice in your specialty isn't scaring a hardened min-maxer. But compared to say, the corebook example sheets? She kicks the crap out of the example Face and as long as she doesn't have to do any major athletic feats she should be able to sneak around pretty OK too. Oh, and she deals roughly heavy pistol grade damage while throwing a ballpoint, so she's never really unarmed. I've kinda gotten to the point as a GM where I consider it to be a table problem if this sort of sheet can't really contribute.
Human Adept
Body: 3
Agility: 5
Reaction: 3
Strength: 3
Charisma: 5
Intuition: 3
Logic: 3
Willpower: 3
Edge: 2
Magic: 5
Essence: 6
Qualities:
Adept
Lost Loved One
SINner
Day Job (Small)
Fame (Local)
Mild Addiction: Novacoke
Mild Addiction: Deepweed
Contacts:
Coffin Club Owner: Loyalty 3, Connection 2
Fixer: Loyalty 2, Connection 3
Private Investigator: Loyalty 1, Connection 2
Throwing Weapons: 5
Gymnastics: 5
Blades: 4
Perception: 4
Stealth Group: 4
Influence Group: 4
Powers:
Missile Mastery
Power Throw: 3
Quick Draw
Nimble Fingers
Kinesics: 3
Enthralling Performance
Commanding Voice
Improved Ability (Gymnastics): 1
Free Knowledge Points
50k Nuyen worth of Lifestyle/Gear
This character performed at night clubs (usually of the coffin variety) as a day job and ran the shadows in part to follow up on a missing sibling. Now, I've ran groups where this character would definitely be considered weak sauce-- she's spending bp on attributes she doesn't really use, for one thing. Social Skills in particular can be boosted to the point that the Pornomancer sheet is a combination running joke/grim warning here on Dumpshock. 12 dice in your specialty isn't scaring a hardened min-maxer. But compared to say, the corebook example sheets? She kicks the crap out of the example Face and as long as she doesn't have to do any major athletic feats she should be able to sneak around pretty OK too. Oh, and she deals roughly heavy pistol grade damage while throwing a ballpoint, so she's never really unarmed. I've kinda gotten to the point as a GM where I consider it to be a table problem if this sort of sheet can't really contribute.
This/That builds are doable, although it's not always easy. You can try to pick "nearby" roles that use mostly the same stats(Face/Charisma Tradition), or synergy roles that enhance each other's potential (Sam/Infiltrator).
Getting the ultimate dice pool is often insanely expensive, by only going to about 12 instead of 16 you can save a lot of points. Diminishing returns hurt overspecialization. So a dual-specialized character can be more effective than an extreme single specialist.
But a true generalist? Some who does a bit of everything? I don't think anyone should want to; you hire shadowrunners because they're better at something.
Getting the ultimate dice pool is often insanely expensive, by only going to about 12 instead of 16 you can save a lot of points. Diminishing returns hurt overspecialization. So a dual-specialized character can be more effective than an extreme single specialist.
But a true generalist? Some who does a bit of everything? I don't think anyone should want to; you hire shadowrunners because they're better at something.
Ok, perhaps I should be more specific in phrasing, not quite 'generalist' but more 'dual build'. Though looking at your sheet there Whip, its pretty similar to what Ive got going, though I went for more stealth gear and just picked up some decent gun skills Perhaps I should try throwing weapons. The thought of injuring someone with a spork is...well, amusing
Perhaps I should try throwing weapons. The thought of injuring someone with a spork is...well, amusing
20 dice is simply not necessary. The GM fits the run to the characters. 
You really *should* have at least two roles, or you're a boring one-trick pony.
You really *should* have at least two roles, or you're a boring one-trick pony.
QUOTE (Teryon @ Sep 30 2010, 05:57 PM)
Thats generally how I prefer to build my characters in any system(not that Ive played a million of them, but I digress). I suppose I listened to the OTHER resident munchkin too much. I too have the munchkin mindset, but tempered with the understanding that
A. Its not quite as much fun
B. The GM is not incompetent and will go out of his way(more so than usual anyway) to bring the pain down upon me
C. Robert Heinlein was right: Specialization is for insects. A human should be able to do 100 things fairly well.
Interesting that you note 5-10 dice as competently. I presumed 15 dice was competence, like 8-10 dice was 'decent', and anything above 15 as 'able to do it well;.
A. Its not quite as much fun
B. The GM is not incompetent and will go out of his way(more so than usual anyway) to bring the pain down upon me
C. Robert Heinlein was right: Specialization is for insects. A human should be able to do 100 things fairly well.
Interesting that you note 5-10 dice as competently. I presumed 15 dice was competence, like 8-10 dice was 'decent', and anything above 15 as 'able to do it well;.
Well, I think it really comes down to terms.
By "competent" I meant "able to avoid embarassing yourself at a basic task under ordinary circumstances" which you might define as 'decent'. Six or seven dice in a pool is definitely on the low end of competent. Like I said, my players REALLY value roleplaying and REALLY undervalue and seem to kind of subconsciously frown-upon character optimization. YMMV. Heck, YMWV (Your Milage Will Vary).
I think the best advice here would be to collaborate with your fellow players and ask your GM-- the game isn't class based, so it's not really enough to just say "Well, we got a cleric, a mage and a rogue so I guess Bob should play a pack mule, erm, I mean, a fighter." Check out what their sheets can do. If they're throwing gobs more dice then you may want to nick a few tricks off them here or there so you have enough dice to fit into the sort of game people are going for. For example, the sheet I listed above could easily have higher dice pools in Stealth and Social skills simply by ditching some of the thrown weapon powers and settling for a pistol and shunting Power Points into Improved Ability and/or burning a point of essence on some bioware. In other groups it might not really matter and it'll hit the sweet spot between raw dice and utility even without tweaking. It's tough to say without context. Being able to talk your way in and sneak your way out is a bit expensive because they use different primary attributes (Charisma and Agility respectively), but as Ascalphus pointed out some roles have enough synergy together that you can get away with having to stretch your points a bit thin here and there.
It is quite possible to have two, or sometimes even three, things that you do pretty well.
The problem with a lot of generalist builds is that, quite frankly, they don't take advantage of the system's strengths - magic and technology. They create characters with average Attributes all over, and a bunch of skills in the 2-4 range. Obviously, such characters will not be all that great, purely looking at dice pools. But when you use 'ware or magic to boost up your Attributes and dice pools, you can not only have a higher dice pool in one or two specialties, but often have better dice pools at everything else, too.
For an example, here is a generic hitman build:
Now, this guy is good in a fight - high dice pools to attack (at close, medium, and long range combat) and dodge, decent damage soaking, very good initiative, and multiple initiative passes. But he is also really good at sneaking, with dice pools in the 8-12 range for the stealth skill group, and he has very good perception, too. And after the game starts, he only needs some pirated skillsofts to be even more versatile.
The problem with a lot of generalist builds is that, quite frankly, they don't take advantage of the system's strengths - magic and technology. They create characters with average Attributes all over, and a bunch of skills in the 2-4 range. Obviously, such characters will not be all that great, purely looking at dice pools. But when you use 'ware or magic to boost up your Attributes and dice pools, you can not only have a higher dice pool in one or two specialties, but often have better dice pools at everything else, too.
For an example, here is a generic hitman build:
[ Spoiler ]
Now, this guy is good in a fight - high dice pools to attack (at close, medium, and long range combat) and dodge, decent damage soaking, very good initiative, and multiple initiative passes. But he is also really good at sneaking, with dice pools in the 8-12 range for the stealth skill group, and he has very good perception, too. And after the game starts, he only needs some pirated skillsofts to be even more versatile.
I'm going to be the voice of dissent and say "No". Trying to be decent at everything leaves you good for nothing.
Now, a dual build can be viable-- focusing on two things to be good at without being crippled in other areas. Sometimes they can even be complimentary: there's lots of archetypes that could benefit from a high Charisma, so a face/mage, face/otaku, or even a face/sammie are viable builds. Decker/Rigger combinations can be viable as well.
The best bet is to see what your team needs, and building around that. You'll guarantee yourself lots more spotlight time that way, filling the roles that they lack.
Now, a dual build can be viable-- focusing on two things to be good at without being crippled in other areas. Sometimes they can even be complimentary: there's lots of archetypes that could benefit from a high Charisma, so a face/mage, face/otaku, or even a face/sammie are viable builds. Decker/Rigger combinations can be viable as well.
The best bet is to see what your team needs, and building around that. You'll guarantee yourself lots more spotlight time that way, filling the roles that they lack.
There are more as to sneak than stealth. A good face can bluff or disguise there way past guards or both. Adepts are great at disguise. face sculpt+voice control + melonin control and the social skills to back it up.
QUOTE (Glyph @ Sep 30 2010, 09:33 PM)
It is quite possible to have two, or sometimes even three, things that you do pretty well.
The problem with a lot of generalist builds is that, quite frankly, they don't take advantage of the system's strengths - magic and technology. They create characters with average Attributes all over, and a bunch of skills in the 2-4 range. Obviously, such characters will not be all that great, purely looking at dice pools. But when you use 'ware or magic to boost up your Attributes and dice pools, you can not only have a higher dice pool in one or two specialties, but often have better dice pools at everything else, too.
For an example, here is a generic hitman build:
Now, this guy is good in a fight - high dice pools to attack (at close, medium, and long range combat) and dodge, decent damage soaking, very good initiative, and multiple initiative passes. But he is also really good at sneaking, with dice pools in the 8-12 range for the stealth skill group, and he has very good perception, too. And after the game starts, he only needs some pirated skillsofts to be even more versatile.
The problem with a lot of generalist builds is that, quite frankly, they don't take advantage of the system's strengths - magic and technology. They create characters with average Attributes all over, and a bunch of skills in the 2-4 range. Obviously, such characters will not be all that great, purely looking at dice pools. But when you use 'ware or magic to boost up your Attributes and dice pools, you can not only have a higher dice pool in one or two specialties, but often have better dice pools at everything else, too.
For an example, here is a generic hitman build:
[ Spoiler ]
Now, this guy is good in a fight - high dice pools to attack (at close, medium, and long range combat) and dodge, decent damage soaking, very good initiative, and multiple initiative passes. But he is also really good at sneaking, with dice pools in the 8-12 range for the stealth skill group, and he has very good perception, too. And after the game starts, he only needs some pirated skillsofts to be even more versatile.
I am not sure if this is a derail or not but I believe that a related topic is that there is a huge difference between groups that believe that a 6 in an attribute is really good and that a 9 in an attribute is really good.
To be optimized, everyone needs high attributes...ESPECIALLY generalists.
I think it is alright to build a generalist who is alright at those skills which are primarily not used in opposed tests. Or the intended use by the character is not in opposed tests.
For example, some players simply want to make sure that their characters do not miss the obvious clues, so they take a little Perception to make that Threshold 1 or 2. Other players want their characters to be able to spot that extremely well-hidden sniper despite their characters getting a lot of negative dice.
You need to decide what level of competence you want your generalist to be. But unless your game has a very small number of players (1 or 2), you might be better served by specialising in one or 2 areas.
For example, some players simply want to make sure that their characters do not miss the obvious clues, so they take a little Perception to make that Threshold 1 or 2. Other players want their characters to be able to spot that extremely well-hidden sniper despite their characters getting a lot of negative dice.
You need to decide what level of competence you want your generalist to be. But unless your game has a very small number of players (1 or 2), you might be better served by specialising in one or 2 areas.
QUOTE (toturi @ Oct 1 2010, 03:10 AM)
I think it is alright to build a generalist who is alright at those skills which are primarily not used in opposed tests. Or the intended use by the character is not in opposed tests.
For example, some players simply want to make sure that their characters do not miss the obvious clues, so they take a little Perception to make that Threshold 1 or 2. Other players want their characters to be able to spot that extremely well-hidden sniper despite their characters getting a lot of negative dice.
You need to decide what level of competence you want your generalist to be. But unless your game has a very small number of players (1 or 2), you might be better served by specialising in one or 2 areas.
For example, some players simply want to make sure that their characters do not miss the obvious clues, so they take a little Perception to make that Threshold 1 or 2. Other players want their characters to be able to spot that extremely well-hidden sniper despite their characters getting a lot of negative dice.
You need to decide what level of competence you want your generalist to be. But unless your game has a very small number of players (1 or 2), you might be better served by specialising in one or 2 areas.
I tend to create more generalist characters covering 2 or 3 areas. How you play the character more often than not determines his or her success. Having a character go toe to toe with specialized sam or hacker or anything other specialist is not always a good idea, but out smarting him and defeating him with skills he doesn't have ,because he is so limited, is more fun.
QUOTE (Triggvi @ Oct 1 2010, 12:02 PM)
I tend to create more generalist characters covering 2 or 3 areas. How you play the character more often than not determines his or her success. Having a character go toe to toe with specialized sam or hacker or anything other specialist is not always a good idea, but out smarting him and defeating him with skills he doesn't have ,because he is so limited, is more fun.
That would depend. Having a character go toe to toe against another in an area where he is at a disadvantage is not a good idea, but the other guy will be trying to force someone weaker to face him in the area where he is stronger. So the specialist will want to force you to face him in his speciality while the generalist will be trying to avoid that speciality. How do you make it such that you will face the other in a contest of your choosing is the key. Sometimes the initiative isn't on your side or you are simply not that much smarter than him and you have to face the specialist in his speciality.
Depends on what you're going for. If your specialty is more social, you'd not want to be in a situation where you face the combat oriented at ALL. Failing that of course there's being tricky and hoping for the best.
Amusing fact: a gunslinger face can Dirty Harry a Samurai into surrendering easier than vice versa.
The system has a somewhat unfriendly glitch system in place. It requires more dice as glitch protection than you can get for most generalists builds or even dual builds while still being overall competent. It is possible to pull off sure, just difficult.
Teryon's original post seemed more about dual-specialty builds than what the Dumpshock community commonly thinks of as "generalists".
As a rule of thumb, you can pretty much cover two specialties, and be good at both. However, if they are not compatible, this can be at the expense of breadth in either specialty. Compatible specialties share the same linked Attribute(s). Noncompatible ones don't.
A compatible example would be a speed sammie, with Agility: 9 and Intuition: 5, who also takes the stealth skill group. Since that skill group uses Agility and Intuition, that sammie will be good at his primary role and stealth.
A noncompatible example would be a sammie/face. Sure, you can do it, by taking a Charisma of 4 or 5, and the influence skill group at 4, possibly with some qualities or 'ware to increase your social abilities still further. But this will happen at the expense of being all-around good as a sammie. Now, you might still have 3 IP and 20 dice for your primary weapon, don't get me wrong, but you will take a hit is some area. Maybe your Intuition will be only average, maybe you won't have that orthoskin: 3 to help soak the damage, or maybe your secondary ranged skills will be a bit lower.
See, a specialty is not just one skill - it is the skills that supplement it. A gunslinger who tosses 23 dice is impressive, but can he dodge? Can he use an assault rifle when his enemies are out of pistol range? Can he fix his gun if the barrel gets bent? Can he sneak up on someone, or notice someone about to spring an ambush on him? A street samurai, for example, is not just someone tossing 20+ dice for pistols. He should also have high initiative, multiple initiative passes, high dodging and damage soaking ability, ability with heavier ranged weapons and close combat - and that's just the combat side.
Triggvi's tactic, using a specialist's lack of skills in other areas against him, works best on the hyper-specialists, the ones who spent too much going from 21 dice to 24 dice, and neglected other areas, such as perception or dodge. Well-rounded specialists are likelier to have less glaring weaknesses, and more ways to force a combat into their area of expertise.
As a rule of thumb, you can pretty much cover two specialties, and be good at both. However, if they are not compatible, this can be at the expense of breadth in either specialty. Compatible specialties share the same linked Attribute(s). Noncompatible ones don't.
A compatible example would be a speed sammie, with Agility: 9 and Intuition: 5, who also takes the stealth skill group. Since that skill group uses Agility and Intuition, that sammie will be good at his primary role and stealth.
A noncompatible example would be a sammie/face. Sure, you can do it, by taking a Charisma of 4 or 5, and the influence skill group at 4, possibly with some qualities or 'ware to increase your social abilities still further. But this will happen at the expense of being all-around good as a sammie. Now, you might still have 3 IP and 20 dice for your primary weapon, don't get me wrong, but you will take a hit is some area. Maybe your Intuition will be only average, maybe you won't have that orthoskin: 3 to help soak the damage, or maybe your secondary ranged skills will be a bit lower.
See, a specialty is not just one skill - it is the skills that supplement it. A gunslinger who tosses 23 dice is impressive, but can he dodge? Can he use an assault rifle when his enemies are out of pistol range? Can he fix his gun if the barrel gets bent? Can he sneak up on someone, or notice someone about to spring an ambush on him? A street samurai, for example, is not just someone tossing 20+ dice for pistols. He should also have high initiative, multiple initiative passes, high dodging and damage soaking ability, ability with heavier ranged weapons and close combat - and that's just the combat side.
Triggvi's tactic, using a specialist's lack of skills in other areas against him, works best on the hyper-specialists, the ones who spent too much going from 21 dice to 24 dice, and neglected other areas, such as perception or dodge. Well-rounded specialists are likelier to have less glaring weaknesses, and more ways to force a combat into their area of expertise.
QUOTE (Glyph @ Oct 1 2010, 07:15 AM)
Teryon's original post seemed more about dual-specialty builds than what the Dumpshock community commonly thinks of as "generalists".
As a rule of thumb, you can pretty much cover two specialties, and be good at both. However, if they are not compatible, this can be at the expense of breadth in either specialty. Compatible specialties share the same linked Attribute(s). Noncompatible ones don't.
A compatible example would be a speed sammie, with Agility: 9 and Intuition: 5, who also takes the stealth skill group. Since that skill group uses Agility and Intuition, that sammie will be good at his primary role and stealth.
A noncompatible example would be a sammie/face. Sure, you can do it, by taking a Charisma of 4 or 5, and the influence skill group at 4, possibly with some qualities or 'ware to increase your social abilities still further. But this will happen at the expense of being all-around good as a sammie. Now, you might still have 3 IP and 20 dice for your primary weapon, don't get me wrong, but you will take a hit is some area. Maybe your Intuition will be only average, maybe you won't have that orthoskin: 3 to help soak the damage, or maybe your secondary ranged skills will be a bit lower.
See, a specialty is not just one skill - it is the skills that supplement it. A gunslinger who tosses 23 dice is impressive, but can he dodge? Can he use an assault rifle when his enemies are out of pistol range? Can he fix his gun if the barrel gets bent? Can he sneak up on someone, or notice someone about to spring an ambush on him? A street samurai, for example, is not just someone tossing 20+ dice for pistols. He should also have high initiative, multiple initiative passes, high dodging and damage soaking ability, ability with heavier ranged weapons and close combat - and that's just the combat side.
Triggvi's tactic, using a specialist's lack of skills in other areas against him, works best on the hyper-specialists, the ones who spent too much going from 21 dice to 24 dice, and neglected other areas, such as perception or dodge. Well-rounded specialists are likelier to have less glaring weaknesses, and more ways to force a combat into their area of expertise.
As a rule of thumb, you can pretty much cover two specialties, and be good at both. However, if they are not compatible, this can be at the expense of breadth in either specialty. Compatible specialties share the same linked Attribute(s). Noncompatible ones don't.
A compatible example would be a speed sammie, with Agility: 9 and Intuition: 5, who also takes the stealth skill group. Since that skill group uses Agility and Intuition, that sammie will be good at his primary role and stealth.
A noncompatible example would be a sammie/face. Sure, you can do it, by taking a Charisma of 4 or 5, and the influence skill group at 4, possibly with some qualities or 'ware to increase your social abilities still further. But this will happen at the expense of being all-around good as a sammie. Now, you might still have 3 IP and 20 dice for your primary weapon, don't get me wrong, but you will take a hit is some area. Maybe your Intuition will be only average, maybe you won't have that orthoskin: 3 to help soak the damage, or maybe your secondary ranged skills will be a bit lower.
See, a specialty is not just one skill - it is the skills that supplement it. A gunslinger who tosses 23 dice is impressive, but can he dodge? Can he use an assault rifle when his enemies are out of pistol range? Can he fix his gun if the barrel gets bent? Can he sneak up on someone, or notice someone about to spring an ambush on him? A street samurai, for example, is not just someone tossing 20+ dice for pistols. He should also have high initiative, multiple initiative passes, high dodging and damage soaking ability, ability with heavier ranged weapons and close combat - and that's just the combat side.
Triggvi's tactic, using a specialist's lack of skills in other areas against him, works best on the hyper-specialists, the ones who spent too much going from 21 dice to 24 dice, and neglected other areas, such as perception or dodge. Well-rounded specialists are likelier to have less glaring weaknesses, and more ways to force a combat into their area of expertise.
If i am running an adept face/infiltrator against a sammie. I would use the crowd against the sammie. How many people is he willing blown away tring to find my face in disguise? If the sammie doesn't see the attack coming he can't defend against it. Tactics and street smarts are very important.
build a human with 7 Edge. Get all skils at 1-2, some specialty at 4. Now you can do everything, whenever it comes up. I run a face like that. when needs must, he can roll 12 dice rerolling 6s for his beloved grenade launcher. and so on for everything else. Only once did i use up all my 7 edge in one session. It's harder than you think.
Honestly, I'd avoid taking too many skills at 1 or 2. I'm not a believer in paying for anything that still practically requires Edge to be useful in chargen considering that low ranked skills are cheaper while in play. The primary exception to this would be widely applicable skills that cannot be defaulted such as Hardware. Such skills are a rarity.
Make a human, get Edge to 7(8?) and you have a pretty instant viable generalist
DANG , too late
DANG , too late
QUOTE (Triggvi @ Oct 1 2010, 02:35 PM)
If i am running an adept face/infiltrator against a sammie. I would use the crowd against the sammie. How many people is he willing blown away tring to find my face in disguise? If the sammie doesn't see the attack coming he can't defend against it. Tactics and street smarts are very important.
Taking the speed sammie as an example, it would just as easy for him to use the crowd against your face/infiltrator.
QUOTE
Honestly, I'd avoid taking skills at 1 or 2 unless they're something you can't default at all. I'm not a believer in paying for anything that still practically requires Edge to be useful.
I would advise taking at least some of the more usually used skillgroups at 1. Defaulting means the difference between a skill rating of 1 and defaulting is 2.
See, I guess I just think it's kind of irrelevant if you're still going to suck at something anyway. A lot depends on the synergies in play. Unless you're hitting at least 5 dice it's sometimes safer just not to try something at all if you have a choice in the matter.
QUOTE (Whipstitch @ Oct 1 2010, 03:36 PM)
See, I guess I just think it's kind of irrelevant if you're still going to suck at something anyway. A lot depends on the synergies in play. Unless you're hitting at least 5 dice it's sometimes safer just not to try something at all if you have a choice in the matter.
Some tests are avoidable, some others are not likely to be. Look at it this way: 1) You have 3 in the Attribute and 1 in the skill 2) You have 5 in the Attribute but have to default; in which case is a GM more likely to allow you to buy the hit? Both are 4 dice.
Or let's say you have 1) 5 in the Attribute and 1 in the skill 2) 5 in Attribute but defaulting, which is the GM more likely to allow buying the hit? Both still buys 1 hit.
My issue here is that when dealing with a pool of 4 a GM by the RAW shouldn't be letting you buy hits anyway. If I'm not hitting 7 or so dice I'm no longer really certain I want to spend points on it at all. The other big issue is that some rather important things are derived from some of your attributes, such as Initiative Score and Condition Monitor boxes while Agility just plain covers an awful lot of ground. Logic and Charisma linked skills I'm a bit more flexible on, but if push came to shove I'd actually let those sit at a one and simply buy up my skills at chargen to 4s if I had my druthers, since boosting an attribute from a 1 up to a 2 or 3 is relatively inexpensive in play.
QUOTE (Whipstitch @ Oct 1 2010, 09:56 AM)
but if push came to shove I'd actually let those sit at a one and simply buy up my skills at chargen to 4s if I had my druthers, since boosting an attribute from a 1 up to a 2 or 3 is relatively inexpensive in play.
And this really emphasis the reason why i think karmagen is thousand times better then BP:gen
QUOTE (Whipstitch @ Oct 1 2010, 03:56 PM)
My issue here is that when dealing with a pool of 4 a GM by the RAW shouldn't be letting you buy hits anyway.
Why would GM by RAW not be letting you buy a hit with 4 dice?
At what amount of dice pool by RAW should a GM allow buying hits?
I have to disagree with the "don't bother having only 1 or 2 in skills" argument. Even if it's not part of your core concept, there are skills that come into play often enough that even having 1 in the skill and not defaulting is important. Examples? Perception, big time. Infiltration, because let's face it, most runners build their careers on getting in and out of places as quietly as possible. First Aid, because the heal spell won't work too well on the 0.2 essence sammy. Dodge or gymnastics, because eventually, infiltration fails and no one wants to actually get hit if they an avoid it (not even the sammy, though he should be able to take it). Some kind of weapon skill, preferably ranged, because again, the soy hits the fan often enough that you should either be getting out of the way or helping.
QUOTE (toturi @ Oct 1 2010, 11:02 AM)
Why would GM by RAW not be letting you buy a hit with 4 dice?
At what amount of dice pool by RAW should a GM allow buying hits?
At what amount of dice pool by RAW should a GM allow buying hits?
QUOTE (SR4, p.55)
Buying Hits
If the gamemaster allows it, a character may trade in 4 dice from her dice pool in exchange for an automatic hit. Gamemasters should only allow this when the character has an exceptionally large dice pool (and is unlikely to fail) or when the situation is non-threatening and non-stressful. If the character might suffer bad consequences from failing the test, then the gamemaster should require her to roll the test rather than buying hits. Buying hits is an all-or-nothing affair; you cannot spend part of your pool to buy hits and then make a test with the rest.
If the gamemaster allows it, a character may trade in 4 dice from her dice pool in exchange for an automatic hit. Gamemasters should only allow this when the character has an exceptionally large dice pool (and is unlikely to fail) or when the situation is non-threatening and non-stressful. If the character might suffer bad consequences from failing the test, then the gamemaster should require her to roll the test rather than buying hits. Buying hits is an all-or-nothing affair; you cannot spend part of your pool to buy hits and then make a test with the rest.
That's why.
QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Oct 1 2010, 07:28 AM)
That's why.
The "or" in that sentence is pretty important.
QUOTE (SleepIncarnate @ Oct 1 2010, 04:26 AM)
I have to disagree with the "don't bother having only 1 or 2 in skills" argument. Even if it's not part of your core concept, there are skills that come into play often enough that even having 1 in the skill and not defaulting is important. Examples? Perception, big time. Infiltration, because let's face it, most runners build their careers on getting in and out of places as quietly as possible. First Aid, because the heal spell won't work too well on the 0.2 essence sammy. Dodge or gymnastics, because eventually, infiltration fails and no one wants to actually get hit if they an avoid it (not even the sammy, though he should be able to take it). Some kind of weapon skill, preferably ranged, because again, the soy hits the fan often enough that you should either be getting out of the way or helping.
My counter to this is simple: If these things are so important why are you only taking them at a 1 or a 2? I sure as hell don't. With First Aid I usually see untrained PCs use trauma patches or a Savior MedKit during emergencies or else they're shooing eachother away from their wounds until someone with a real dice pool shows up, since you can really only treat a single set of wounds once. It's not really something you want some mook with 4 dice screwing up. I will say I spoke a li'l too strongly earlier, however. I don't mean that a 1 or a 2 here and there is always a bad idea. I mean that the opportunity cost of taking 1s or 2s in practically everything is pretty dang high and you should be careful that your points aren't going into a lost cause. There's a difference between grabbing Hardware:2 (Maglocks) on a infiltrator with Cerebral Boosters and buying Hardware:1 on a brick stupid melee artist. Either one is paying a premium if you get it at chargen, (especially with the specialization) but at least in the former case I could really see someone getting a lot of mileage out of it.
As far as buying hits goes, I've found that non-threatening and non-stressful tests tend to fall under that avoidable category where I'm not particularly concerned about success or failure either way. An Armorer test where you're buying a hit is pretty alright for installing your own smartlink but that's kind of about it.
QUOTE (Mooncrow @ Oct 1 2010, 01:52 PM)
The "or" in that sentence is pretty important.
Well, it basically reads
IF(no bad consequences from failing AND (lots of dice OR no stress)) THEN you may buy hits
So if you have only 4 dice, you can only buy hits if there's both no stress and no bad consequences for failing. In other words: only on rolls that don't really matter.
Granted, it doesn't matter why you have only 4 dice, as long as the cause isn't stress.
QUOTE (Teryon @ Sep 30 2010, 06:27 PM)
After taking in the advice(grateful btw) of the forums here, and playing around with the system a bit, Ive basically gotta ask: can a generalist survive this game? Can a character with points split between, say, face\street sam or an infiltrator\melee master or whatnot actually compete with the insane dice pools specialists can throw out(and as a consequence, the bar being set higher by the GM to compensate). Assume that yes, character will be teamed with more 'optimized' individuals.
Just whore yourself out on Agility and Logic and you're a pretty good way along with regard to competing with the specialists. 9 Agility is -fairly- easy to reach (doesn't require 6 agility natural), and with a 5 logic you can hit 8 logic with cerebral boosters.
A high Edge also helps.
Ignoring the availability issue, losing an entire magic point for those boosters seems a tad expensive.
The trick is not to just get boosters. If you mix and match cyber and bio you can cram a surprising amount of stuff into one essence point. A combat mage with Muscle Toners, Cerebral Booster and some Cybereyes, for example.
If you would like to make a generalist, try makign a character who has no magic or metal. Use combat drugs for your first feww runs until you can save up the money for some good cyber.
Use your points for skills + stats rather than gear + freakshow mutations
Keep in mind that a professional person who does a task for a living is likely to have 3-4 in the skill and 4 in the linked attribute. Once you add in a specialization you are looking at 9-10 dice for someone who does that particular thing for a living. If you can build a character who can perform at that level in 4-5 areas, you are a true generalist.
Use your points for skills + stats rather than gear + freakshow mutations
Keep in mind that a professional person who does a task for a living is likely to have 3-4 in the skill and 4 in the linked attribute. Once you add in a specialization you are looking at 9-10 dice for someone who does that particular thing for a living. If you can build a character who can perform at that level in 4-5 areas, you are a true generalist.
QUOTE (Whipstitch @ Oct 1 2010, 03:14 AM)
Honestly, I'd avoid taking too many skills at 1 or 2. I'm not a believer in paying for anything that still practically requires Edge to be useful in chargen considering that low ranked skills are cheaper while in play. The primary exception to this would be widely applicable skills that cannot be defaulted such as Hardware. Such skills are a rarity.
Well, hm.My main character right now doesn't have a single BP-purchased skill rating over 4.
She has no less than 12 active skills at Rating 1 or 2.
However, she still rolls 9 dice or so with more than half of them.
The few skills she rolls only 5-8 dice with are some of the 'secondary' Magic skills.
Heck, her base Gunnery skill is 1, but she ends up chucking 17 dice on tests a lot. Base Negotiation has a rating of 3, but she rolls 24 dice. That's WITH skill caps, and no Edge.
Some characters can get away with it because they have silly high attributes, or have a lot of skill boosters. Or both.
So a general blanket, "don't take a lot of skills at 1 or 2" isn't necessarily right.
-k
QUOTE (KarmaInferno @ Oct 1 2010, 04:10 PM)
Well, hm.
My main character right now doesn't have a single BP-purchased skill rating over 4.
She has no less than 12 active skills at Rating 1 or 2.
However, she still rolls 9 dice or so with more than half of them.
The few skills she rolls only 5-8 dice with are some of the 'secondary' Magic skills.
Heck, her base Gunnery skill is 1, but she ends up chucking 17 dice on tests a lot. Base Negotiation has a rating of 3, but she rolls 24 dice. That's WITH skill caps, and no Edge.
Some characters can get away with it because they have silly high attributes, or have a lot of skill boosters. Or both.
So a general blanket, "don't take a lot of skills at 1 or 2" isn't necessarily right.
-k
My main character right now doesn't have a single BP-purchased skill rating over 4.
She has no less than 12 active skills at Rating 1 or 2.
However, she still rolls 9 dice or so with more than half of them.
The few skills she rolls only 5-8 dice with are some of the 'secondary' Magic skills.
Heck, her base Gunnery skill is 1, but she ends up chucking 17 dice on tests a lot. Base Negotiation has a rating of 3, but she rolls 24 dice. That's WITH skill caps, and no Edge.
Some characters can get away with it because they have silly high attributes, or have a lot of skill boosters. Or both.
So a general blanket, "don't take a lot of skills at 1 or 2" isn't necessarily right.
-k
You mind giving us a rundown of those numbers? Especially how you get your attributes up like that?
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