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Nerdynick
Pretty much what it sounds like, what is the standard issue for UCAS Military? (If you want to narrow that, Army infantry). I'm talking about both equipment and implants.

Thanks
Angelone
Soldiers are mentioned in various books (Cybertech, Brainscan, and a few others iirc), you can find the answers there and convert over.
I'd however go with a Colt M23, Colt M22A3, or Ingram White Knight for weapons depending of their function in the squad.
For armor, a vest with plates, although I could see an argument for an armor jacket or camo armor.
Misc. equipment I'd go with goggles with as much goodies as you can fit in them, commlinks (of course), a tacnet, a survival kit, the smart carrying system from arsenal.
This is a basic load out more can be issued for specific missions.

As for cyber, I think it really depends on how long they've been in, if they are lifers, SF, stuff like that. Handy stuff would be a radar sensor it's fairly cheap and makes it easier to detect nearby enemies, I like wired reflexes 1 at least (but that can be argued against in favor of drugs depending on which nation the soldier is from), and stuff like bonelacing or dermal plating to help with survivability. I can definately see mages getting cybereyes for spell casting goodness.
Jesher
Forgive my ignorance, but wouldn't MilSpec armor... y'know... be used by the military? Or am I missing something?

And, this is all conjecture (unfortunately, as I don't know good SR4 books relating to UCAS military), but I would think cyber would be encouraged but not provided. At least not for GIs.
Summerstorm
Good question. Was there anything official. Have to look through my Johnsons Black Book.

Hm... just one fitting NPC there. Standart attributes, no special cyberware (except datajack)

So i guess, fo an enlisted man:
Equipment: Camouflage Suit, Ares Alpha (or similar)
Min Attributes: All physical at 3, all mental at 2
Min skill: Automatics 2, Perception at 2
No additional cyberware
Much variation

For higher rankings/ carrer soldiers:
Equipment: Camouflage Suit, Ares Alpha (or similar)
Camouflage Suit, Ares Alpha (or similar)
Min Attributes: All physical at 3, all mental at 2, except cha and logic 3
Min skill: Automatics 2, Perception at 2, Leadership 2
Reflex Booster I, Cybereyes, Smartgun
Much variation

Specialists:
Like Corp-specops (There are a lot of examples)
Mostly: Milspec Armor, alpha grade booster or MBW, Skills at 4+, fully modded weaponry and special ammunition (APDS)

EDIT: Ah yes, standar: Medikit, all few soldiers an LAW or something (when in the field), comlink (all 4), Goggles, all 4 or so a radar unit, maybe Tacnet (1) so they won't shoot each other.
Specialists all that and higher/better.
And yeah, i can see a drone carrying some stuff. Or maybe even having a mortar mounted too.
CanRay
Well, I'd be issuing them with a minimum of Armoured Jackets for body armour. And Colt M23 Assault Rifles as a standard combat rifle, with one soldier in a fire unit having a Colt M22A3, and another soldier having an Ares MP-LMP with another soldier having extra equipment for it.

But, well, that's just me.
Angelone
Milspec is more for Special Forces. It's way too expensive and hard to readjust to give it to every grunt you have.
Stingray
Camouflage Suit (8/6) w/o Body Minimum of 4,gives a person wearing it penalties..so unless
optional Armor rules are in use, other armor's are better choice..
(maybe Industrious Line Coverall or Victory (Ares) Camouflage jumpsuit (5/3) and helmet (1/2)
and some parts of PPP-system if Body-attribute is high enough.)
Critias
QUOTE (Stingray @ Oct 16 2010, 02:02 PM) *
Camouflage Suit (8/6) w/o Body Minimum of 4,gives a person wearing it penalties..

Right, so maybe part of the reason they work you so hard in Basic, and then more in AIT (especially for front line combat types) is to get all the high speed, low drag, operators up to a Body of 4 (so they can hustle in their gear without penalties).
Summerstorm
Also... why not take the penalty? Never understood why you HAVE to wear an armor which isn't slowing you down, it is just -1 to everything you do. But yeah, i can see armored vests or other armors.
Smokeskin
QUOTE (Stingray @ Oct 16 2010, 09:02 PM) *
Camouflage Suit (8/6) w/o Body Minimum of 4,gives a person wearing it penalties..so unless
optional Armor rules are in use, other armor's are better choice..


Most combat troops would have body 4 or higher. Body 3 is typical, soldiers are in better shape than that.

Also today, most troops are carrying so much armor their efficiency and mobility is reduced.
KarmaInferno
I keep thinking we'll start seeing troops riding into battle on Segways soon.

Oh, wait..



-k
TheScrivener
Ah, but the segways will have minds of their own
The Grue Master
There was another thread about this topic that turned into an argument about whether the gummint would invest 50k worth of armor/arms on your average grunt. I tend to use a sliding scale of coolness for my various baddies (that my runners encounter all over the world).

Badly-Equipped Grunts:
No Armor or [3/0] Armor
SMG or Assault Rifle w/ No Mods

Generic Grunts:
[6/4] Camo + Helmet [1/2]
SMG or Assault Rifle w/ Minor Mods (many stock weapons have laser sights, gas-vent 2s, etc)

Well-Equipped Grunts:
[8/6] Camo Armor + Full Helmet [2/2] w/ Commlink, Vision/Audio Mods, Biomonitor (As these are issued by a large army use the 'customized' encumberance rules)
SMG or Assault Rifle w/ Good Mods (Smartlink + GasVent/Supressor w/ Specialized Ammo)

Specially-Equipped Grunts:
These are a real challenge to most shadowrunners and I tend to design them as a combat oriented team (hacker/gunbunnies/hwep guy and maybe a mage). Each of them is either sporting previously mentioned armor or something out of the books (security armor from SR4A but customized) or Military Armor (Light and Medium). Here I'd just give the baddies whatever your guys can barely handle. If your runners are emptying rounds into these guys and the bullets just bounce off, make sure this is what you want.

Once my team was recruited by the army as cover for an op and I tried to come up with what sort of gear they might be given access to as standard infantry: couple sets of fatigues, previously mentioned [8/6] combat armor and a few special firearms (they were in the desert so I just modified some guns to include Smartlinks and Extreme Environment Mod) and gave them military commlinks (TacNet 2, Firewall + Encryption 5). You can also expect units to be issued specialized equipment for missions in specific environments (desert, artic, etc) that will include obvious necessities. Even with the accessories, this stuff still wouldn't run you anywhere near the budget of most Military Armor (which requires mobility enhancements and such).
Yerameyahu
I dunno if 'no armor' is possible in world where teens go down the street in armor clothing. wink.gif
AppliedCheese
Well, under the assumption that the UCAS has continued to pursue a well trained, comparatively small (for the money and population), networked, and professional force, I would imagine their particular soldiers are going to be somewhat better equipped than the world-standard.

I would see it as follows:

SR/Modern Day

Full Body Amor (camo'd) w/ Helmet and Chem Seal: 9,000 / IOTV with Helmet ~$3000
/ Gas Mask and JLIST ~$1000
Lowlight, Thermal, Smartlink, Magnification, Flare Comp, Imagelink, motion sensor in Helmet 925 / One set NODs ~$2500

4/4 Commlink 5000 / (ICOMs, MBITRs, ASIPs for platoon) ~ $2250 per soldier
Sys 4, Firewall 6 OS
Tac Net 4
Lev 3 Agent/IC
Common Use 4
Track, Attack, Armor 3
At Market 25,200 Given proprietary software and mass user licenses, would assume much closer 10,000 nuyen.gif per. / ANCDs or Single Key Loaders for above radios, per platoon: ~$1100 per soldier.

SmartPack System with pack,vest, and pouches 1000 / framepack, assault pack, load bearing vest and pouches, camelbak: ~$575 . Note that except for the vest this would usually not be worn in a fight.

Medkit 2, Biomonitor, trauma Patch : 1000 /IFAK, CLS Bags, WALK kits in a platoon ~$450 per soldier.

leaving aside sleeping bags and other day to day non shooty bits:

COLT M23A4 (Federal Variant-includes gas vent 2 and smartgun instead of scope and gas 1) 1900 . / m4 Carbine with CCO/ACOG and IR illuminator ~$2400 (including the massive gov discount)

For a grand total of:

Shadowrun infantryman: 28,825 nuyen.gif
US Infantryman, circa 2010 : $ 13,275

So, doubling the price of a soldier in 62 years doesn't seem bad at all, especially as an average job bring in roughly 60,000 nuyen.gif per year (day job quality), whereas the Median US worker earns approximately $45,000. So, in nuyen terms, today's infatntryman at his most basic costs maybe 18000 nuyen.gif (Its a rough estimation, but inflation numbers just don't make sense given the price scheme, and prices are haywire cause of the joys of tech). It doesn't seem exceptional at all that a UCAS grunt would carry 29k on him, especially as all the items listed are external and can be handed off to the next guy.

As far as internals go...you could argue either way.

Consider that training a US soldier to the very, very, basic version of his trade costs (at its most simplistic) roughly $70,000. Or, 93,000 nuyen.gif . With advent of cheap comprehensive simulation, knowsofts, VR and AR instruction, and generally speaking needing less humans and field resources, the money spent on training will probably decrease, but that budget for making soldiers more lethal will be there.

Also consider that plopping a 6k skillwire in somebody to create cheap labor is an accepted practice. From there, is plopping 16k in muscle augs and wire reflexes a huge leap? Even with a 5k opportunity costs for recovery time?









The Grue Master
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Oct 16 2010, 11:50 PM) *
I dunno if 'no armor' is possible in world where teens go down the street in armor clothing. wink.gif


*cough*poverty*cough*
Angelone
@ AppliedCheese, unfortunately 1 nuyen.gif is roughly $4. Other than that your list looks pretty good.
WhiskeyMac
You could probably get a nice cyber-suite as a re-up bonus. I'd say based on the amount of time the soldier originally signed up is if the soldier gets cyberware/bioware implanted.

I'm pretty sure the UCAS would implant sleep regulators in every single soldier, regardless of MOS. The benefits far outweigh the cost.
AppliedCheese
I could see that. Kind of like they do pilot and doctors and lawyers and such nowadays.

You can join, be a pilot, and we'll pay for it all, but you'll need to serve at least 8 years becomes:

"hey, looks here like your ASVAB ver 2065 shows you could be an infantryman kid! Or a supply clerk! Now, if you go the infantry route, we'll put the following systems in you, and you get to keep them! think of the value you'll have in the job market! think how cool you'll be for the ladies! Alright, now there this..little clause over here...right..the one next to six year minimum...and check the box ARO there for the disclaimer...Alright, your in. Aren't you happy you didn't sign on to be some three year finance guy? He wouldn't get any of this awesome stuff."

Ok...so 1 nuyen.gif equals 4x 2072 US dollars, with a weak government and deflated values, or is roughly equivalent to 4x 2010 US dollars? Because the prices make no sense what so ever for the latter. You can't have a super consumerist society where no one is capable of buying anything.
Angelone
4x 2072 Dollars. It's still a bad conversion rate.
AppliedCheese
Ah. Allow me to clarify. All prices listed are in pre-inflation 2010 dollars. Even at current trends (3% inflation average), without global wracking disasters, one 2010 dollar translate to 6.25 2072 dollars. Or, approximately 1.56 nuyen.gif

Bringing our 2010 US infantryman to the price of 20,700 nuyen.gif , and the average costs to train at 109,200 nuyen.gif.

So, that projected list is about 8k nuyen.gif ($5100 circa 2010) more expensive than current day.
Kliko
Ok, so whats our budget/grunt?

And per frontline shock trooper?
AppliedCheese
Well, the, the current gear only budget is $13,275 US (2010). Translates to 20,700 nuyen.gif

That's including ONLY platoon and below assets, and assuming a leg platoon with. If you start factoring in company, battalion, and brigade assets (brigade being the minimum that can reasonably deploy and sustain itself for more than "until the basic load runs out") that price goes much, much higher. Factoring in training, sustainment and pay adds more to that. Reasonably speaking, right now getting a year of combat time out of a soldier, is about $250k. Or 390k nuyen.gif Thats assuming he stays in for the next cycle of reset, retrain, redeploy. One shot soldiers go about $400k, or 625k nuyen.gif since the training is lost. Still doesn't include the price of recruitment. Side note: there are several studies that will try to claim that one soldier is $1M US per year. They are inherently flawed in that they average things like the price of tanks, helicopters, and artillery pieces into a per soldier cost. The numbers I'm giving are for the soldier and his immediate sustainment only.

Now, we don't really have "frontline shock troopers" unless you count the marines (who are actually cheaper...because they tend to use shittier gear due to a political fight to have their budget be special), or the rangers who on average have gear costs of $4000 to $6000 (read 6-9k nuyen.gif) more per soldier, and use exponentially more resources in training and sustainment. You don't even want to touch the rest of the SOF community, because their gear prices range to "whatever is shiny and new and I want."

For the UCAS, I would think a reasonable per soldier gear figure would be 30k external, with up to 20k internal. Especially since the magic of the commlink, drones, and tacnet will cut a lot of gristle off the meat of the organization.

For shock troops, 60-70k external and 40-50k internal would be very reasonable.



Ian Argent
I've kicked this around a couple times. I don't have a good enough handle on SR4 to come up with specific gear right now; but I'll throw out some of the things I was thinking of.

Internal vs external gear: Assuming the UCAS/CAS continue the tradition of the US (no reason they shouldn't) most sensors and comm gear (including commlinks) will be internal, not external. Internal gear cannot be lost or sold on the black market, dropped in retreat, etc. Maintenance is a wash, with increased time in a cyberclinic being offset by cyberware being harder to break (and IMHO more soldierproof), and historically, the US has cared less about maintenance requirements vs effectiveness, anyway. Under SR3, there was the issue of natural being better than cyber, but ISTR in SR4 they are equal in performance.

Tactical computers and all of that stuff will be in the officers and NCOs - the US Mil is already working on the capability at the infantry level and esssentially already has it in the mechanised branches, Air Force, and Navy.

Currently, the army issues the heaviest body armor they think they can get the soldiers to wear. This is unlikely to change, as protection for the warfighter is a serious concern given training times and costs. Mobility is compromised to a certain extent.

Primary weapon is likely to be a select-fire carbine of some sort, with a full-up AR for the squad Designated Marksman. Burst only, no FA for either. SMG ranges and almost AR damage level for the carbine (which I will freely admit doesn't exist in the books, or for that matter, Rules as Written). It's possible that everyone gets an underbarrel GL as well, there have been some moves in that direction that haven't gotten very far. Support weapons (LMG and anti-armor) in similar proportions as today (1 LMG per squad, IIRC). The guns themselves are Smart and locked to milspec smartlinks (the encryption keys are supposed to be wiped on demob, but readily available on the black market).

Cyber/bio enhancements NOT likely to be found in line grunts: stat enhancers, reflex enhancers, trauma dampers/pain editors or similar, implanted armor, or anything that causes damage on a glitch. SpecWar types might get some of these, though stat enhancers are likely still out. Skillwires are probably out as well. Cyberlimbs for casualties, but not as a matter of course.

When compared to today's military, the UCAS/CAS military will be much smaller because of smaller commitments, but even higher capability per warfighter (smaller absolute budgets, but larger per capita due to smaller enlistment).

Reserve units will be at the same level as the regulars (as noted above, you want the gear, you sign a long commitment, possibly up to 10 years between active and ready reserve), but the National Guard equivalents will be much less capable, as they likely will NOT have the expensive cyber/bio packages, and there just won't be hand-me-down equipment from the regulars for comms and sensors. National Guard as we know it today may disappear, with the states having their own State Guards with police/paramilitary-grade gear. This seems to be what the Metroplex Guard of Seattle is. (Also, makes a handy counterweight to the LawCorps' SWAT/HTR capability, should it be needed...)
Kliko
Ok, so lets go wild and say:

- Grunt: nuyen.gif 20k total
- Shock trooper: nuyen.gif 80k total
- Spec ops: nuyen.gif 160k total

Now I'm a sr3 bloke, but I'll see what I can cook-up.
Brainpiercing7.62mm
QUOTE (Ian Argent @ Oct 18 2010, 05:48 AM) *
I've kicked this around a couple times. I don't have a good enough handle on SR4 to come up with specific gear right now; but I'll throw out some of the things I was thinking of.

Internal vs external gear: Assuming the UCAS/CAS continue the tradition of the US (no reason they shouldn't) most sensors and comm gear (including commlinks) will be internal, not external. Internal gear cannot be lost or sold on the black market, dropped in retreat, etc. Maintenance is a wash, with increased time in a cyberclinic being offset by cyberware being harder to break (and IMHO more soldierproof), and historically, the US has cared less about maintenance requirements vs effectiveness, anyway. Under SR3, there was the issue of natural being better than cyber, but ISTR in SR4 they are equal in performance.

Tactical computers and all of that stuff will be in the officers and NCOs - the US Mil is already working on the capability at the infantry level and esssentially already has it in the mechanised branches, Air Force, and Navy.

Currently, the army issues the heaviest body armor they think they can get the soldiers to wear. This is unlikely to change, as protection for the warfighter is a serious concern given training times and costs. Mobility is compromised to a certain extent.


For "frontline" troops, this seems good. I think a lot of support personnel, who are still soldiers, will get less armour.

QUOTE
Primary weapon is likely to be a select-fire carbine of some sort, with a full-up AR for the squad Designated Marksman. Burst only, no FA for either. SMG ranges and almost AR damage level for the carbine (which I will freely admit doesn't exist in the books, or for that matter, Rules as Written). It's possible that everyone gets an underbarrel GL as well, there have been some moves in that direction that haven't gotten very far. Support weapons (LMG and anti-armor) in similar proportions as today (1 LMG per squad, IIRC). The guns themselves are Smart and locked to milspec smartlinks (the encryption keys are supposed to be wiped on demob, but readily available on the black market).

This I disagree with. The engagement distances are going up again even now after the all-time low of WWII. NOW you will want a standard military rifle to engage at a few hundred meters. In 2070 I think you will want higher ranges, especially going with how the game mechanics work. (A simple action to avoid all range penalties even with cheap optics? I want.) I think an SA/BF AR should be standard issue, with something like a HK227 as a weapon for support troops. Each squad should have one or two LMGs equipped with optics and at least two, but probably more, grenade launchers. Going by today's training requirements, though, and the perks of training with underbarrel launchers (expensive training ammo), I would also assume proficiency with the grenade launcher to be LOW. Perhaps a 1 in the skill with a specialty in grenade launchers.

Every infantry squad should carry at least two disposable anti-vehicle weapons (LAWs or the like). I would also think the probability of the squad carrying a crew served HMG with optics or even on a smart platform to be rather high, especially when terrain allows long-range engagements. I've played this out in SR3. A single HMG with optics, let alone two, can devastate entire squads of infantry who can't even get into the range to return fire.
[ Spoiler ]
Kliko
Lets see, note this gear is from sr3, but should be easily enough converted to sr4.

Grunt:
[ Spoiler ]

And the Shock trooper:
[ Spoiler ]
Nerdynick
Hmmmm. I'm not so sure about the average grunt not having chrome. Pg. 48 of Augmentation, under the Lone Star SWAT Suite entry, says: "Similar cyberware packages have been developed for members of other law enforcement corporations or military units (such as Knight Errant, the UCAS Army, or MET2000)" Emphasis mine

This seems to indicate that the army does issue cyberware as standard issue. The cyberware suite in question provides plastic bone lacing, wired reflexes 1, and flare compensation, thermographic vision and smartlink retinal modifications all for 16,875 Nuyen. Although I would personally opt for muscle replacement over plastic bone lacing, this is within the 20k budget you guys describe. You may have to cut back on the other equipment a little bit to do it though.
Critias
QUOTE (Nerdynick @ Oct 18 2010, 05:00 PM) *
Hmmmm. I'm not so sure about the average grunt not having chrome. Pg. 48 of Augmentation, under the Lone Star SWAT Suite entry, says: "Similar cyberware packages have been developed for members of other law enforcement corporations or military units (such as Knight Errant, the UCAS Army, or MET2000)" Emphasis mine

This seems to indicate that the army does issue cyberware as standard issue. The cyberware suite in question provides plastic bone lacing, wired reflexes 1, and flare compensation, thermographic vision and smartlink retinal modifications all for 16,875 Nuyen. Although I would personally opt for muscle replacement over plastic bone lacing, this is within the 20k budget you guys describe. You may have to cut back on the other equipment a little bit to do it though.

The problem, then, is what do you do when Private Smith's enlistment is up?

Does the UCAS Army pay to have that gear -- some of which is restricted or outright forbidden, in legality code -- removed from Private Smith, the same way the modern Army takes back a rifle and vest? Do they leave it implanted, and flood the country's population with folks that are setting off cyberware scanners as they try to live a normal life and get back into a civilian job? Or, heck, what happens if Private Smith decides to go be a paper pusher instead of a combat infantryman? There are legal and logistical snags with enlistment bonuses being combat-oriented implants.

The idea of standard issue chrome just doesn't sit well with me. I like the idea of it being available to troops based on MOS, perhaps even at a significant discount as a method of enlistment bonus...but not just implanted into everyone on their way into or out of Basic, as a matter of routine alongside getting dog tags issued and their inoculation shots.
Brazilian_Shinobi
QUOTE (Critias @ Oct 18 2010, 06:06 PM) *
The problem, then, is what do you do when Private Smith's enlistment is up?

Does the UCAS Army pay to have that gear -- some of which is restricted or outright forbidden, in legality code -- removed from Private Smith, the same way the modern Army takes back a rifle and vest? Do they leave it implanted, and flood the country's population with folks that are setting off cyberware scanners as they try to live a normal life and get back into a civilian job? Or, heck, what happens if Private Smith decides to go be a paper pusher instead of a combat infantryman? There are legal and logistical snags with enlistment bonuses being combat-oriented implants.

The idea of standard issue chrome just doesn't sit well with me. I like the idea of it being available to troops based on MOS, perhaps even at a significant discount as a method of enlistment bonus...but not just implanted into everyone on their way into or out of Basic, as a matter of routine alongside getting dog tags issued and their inoculation shots.


The problem being the bone lacing, because, IIRC there are ways to deactivate the WR, of course, if you go to a street doc, you may pay him to activate it again. In this case, instead of bone lacing, they should put dermal plate. I think it easier to remove dermal plate then stuff lacing your bones.
Kliko
QUOTE (Nerdynick @ Oct 18 2010, 04:00 PM) *
Hmmmm. I'm not so sure about the average grunt not having chrome. Pg. 48 of Augmentation, under the Lone Star SWAT Suite entry, says: "Similar cyberware packages have been developed for members of other law enforcement corporations or military units (such as Knight Errant, the UCAS Army, or MET2000)" Emphasis mine

For the shock trooper? Yeah sure, but it was a matter of compromise. You'd probaply have to let go of the light military armor in order to afford some more extensive cyber within budget. I managed to get him a datajack cyber.gif
AppliedCheese
Kliko, I think your budgeting low. Aim more towards 30k of externals, with up to 20k of internals for a line infantryman. As was pointed out, the UCASA of 2072 is smaller than today's army (there's only 6k soldiers near seattle even), but has not had a corresponding decrease in budget per capita, and we are more than willing to throw 110,000 nuyen.gif at making a soldier as of 2010.

Obviously the finance guys and cooks will probably have a lot less, but 10-15K is not out of line.

I think we've covered the "chrome or no chrome" argument most effectively in pointing out that for those positions that specific chrome would be a (comparatively) cheap and undeniable combat multiplier the simple answer is the same thing we do with pilots today. Namely, if your going into a chromed position, you have a longer minimum service obligation. So, presumably the PBI, and tankers/riggers, as well as a few "super logic" suites for anyone likely to be in any sort of staff or command positions. And no, you don't get to change MOS until that contract is up, thank you. as for the legality issues, there are plenty of "street safe" mods that would be undeniably useful. Wired reflexes 1 comes to mind.

Also, for the simplicity of supply, everyone is probably going to use a variant of the same weapons. I would once again recommend this as a Colt M23A4 (smartgun, gasvent2) , with the rear area equivalent being the standard Colt M23A3 (perhaps minus grenade-launcher). When you have to deal with million and millions of rounds annually, the less variation in ammo there is, the happier you are. You don't need some guys carrying a 9mm SMG, some guys carrying a shortened 5.56mm, some guys with long rifles with match grade 6.8mm ammo, and some guys with a modded .45 ACP. You need one caliber that fits all (until you get MMG or higher).

Your carrying too much light AT firepower. More likely you would have 0-2 LAWs per squad (though motorized or mech units might carry more in the vehicle) depending on likely threat, and the main AT punch would be either fire and forget ATGMs or the backpack indirect missiles. 2-3 teams at platoon level. Simply put, if you can't kill it with 2 LAWs, the guy who fires the 3rd is probably going to die, or the vehicle already moved through the killzone. And that's a lot of space that can carry extra ammo for the big killers (mortars, machineguns, and the heavy AT systems) or vital support equipment.

Can probably expect a designated marksman variant of the above COLT. Extra recoil comp, heavier, longer barrel. treat as it has sporting rifle ranges when fired on semi. Otherwise treat as AR.

So, in summary, to design your UCAS infantry, follow these guidelines:

30k External Gear limit (includes your software at steep discount), include TacNet on all. Can limit rating for lowers.
20k, and only "R" rating, Internal gear limit.
Some rifle, smart gunned and vented, with a simpler yet similar cousin available for its opponents.

Per fire team:
1 Leader (standard AR, extra TACnet control)
1 Designated Marksman (longarm variant of the AR)
1 LMG (preferably with the same caliber as the ARs)
1 Grenadier/AT gunner. (LAW, extra microgrenades for the underbarrel)

Per Squad (somebody gets to carry the slightly bigger medkit)
2x Fireteams
1x Squad Leader (higher signal rating commlink)

Per Weapons Squad
1x Leader
2x MG Teams (medium machinegun with plenty of goodie, plus assistant gunner with plenty of extra ammo)
2x AT Teams (gunner with ATGM or backpack missile, assistant gunner with the reloads)

Per Platoon (everyone carries an extra 100 rounds of machinegun ammo)
3x Squads
1x Platoon Leader (full TACNET and Commlink)
1x Platoon sergeant (Full TACNET and Commlink, tracks solder/logistics details while PL tracks fighting. Serves as 2ndary PL.)
2-3 Medics (with 4+ medkits and plenty of patches)
Weapons Squad

Ian Argent
QUOTE (Critias @ Oct 18 2010, 05:06 PM) *
The problem, then, is what do you do when Private Smith's enlistment is up?

Does the UCAS Army pay to have that gear -- some of which is restricted or outright forbidden, in legality code -- removed from Private Smith, the same way the modern Army takes back a rifle and vest? Do they leave it implanted, and flood the country's population with folks that are setting off cyberware scanners as they try to live a normal life and get back into a civilian job? Or, heck, what happens if Private Smith decides to go be a paper pusher instead of a combat infantryman? There are legal and logistical snags with enlistment bonuses being combat-oriented implants.

The idea of standard issue chrome just doesn't sit well with me. I like the idea of it being available to troops based on MOS, perhaps even at a significant discount as a method of enlistment bonus...but not just implanted into everyone on their way into or out of Basic, as a matter of routine alongside getting dog tags issued and their inoculation shots.


The chrome I was considering for the front-line infantry is all perfectly legal, and except for a smartlink package (which is really just some custom software in SR4 running on a dedicated widget). Fully-loaded eyes and ears, integral commlink, medical monitor, some datajacks, and a skinlink system. If you worked at it, you could probably cram it into a single point of essense; though the cost might be a little high. Lets see...

Using Alpha-grade gear and building it as a suite, we have Cybereyes 3 (Flare comp, LL, TH, Mag, and Smartlink), Cyberears 1 (Damper), Biomonitor, Touch Link, Datajack, and commlink cavity. 0.91 essense and 20,700 (plus cost of commlink, but that's a wash either way). Steeper than the equivalent external gear would be; but it can't be lost or stolen, is a good deal harder to damage. Using baseline-grade parts we're 1.17 essense and 10,350. I'd use the Alpha-grade, myself, in that case, because of the essense overage. (If you can use alpha-grade parts only for the essense-costing bits - IE, buy cheap add-ons for eyes and ears, the cost is 15,750 - a steal).

Just as a note - certainly for the marines, everyone gets the infantry package. "Every marine a rifleman" is right behind "Semper Fi". For the army, they might not want to equip the REMFs with the above, but a) it's a damn useful general-purpose piece of kit (everyone is going to get the 3 'links (Skin, data, and comm) anyway; and will hav eot have the smartlink to interface with weapons. None of the grunts have goggles, so where are the REMFs going to get them when it drops in the pot and you have to arm the clerks and band? OTOH, its gear that can be handed "down" to the National Guard.

Choice of weapon for PFC Snuffy - I stand by the carbine and GL combo for your basic infantry division line dog. He's riding to battle in an AFV of some kind, and the battelfield is more likely than not urban. Anyone outside of 500 m is a job for supporting arms, the Designated Marksman, or the Squad MG. The GL gives PFC Snuffy the ability to bust up fortified positions by fragging the people around cover or by putting a grenade in a firing slit. This is the route tha Army has been going for 40 years; after all. OTOH, thre will be full-length-barrel ARs around, and bullpups may be an acceptable compromise for OAL vs barrel length.
Neurosis
I dig this topic. I'll take a stab at it later.
CanRay
QUOTE (Critias @ Oct 18 2010, 04:06 PM) *
The problem, then, is what do you do when Private Smith's enlistment is up?

Here's a more important question: What happens if Private Smith has a Dishonorable Discharge?

Now you have government paid for illegal implants in someone with a criminal record...
Nerdynick
Well at that point you yank out whatever chrome Uncle Sam put in him. The corps do the same with their workers, I don't see why the Army wouldn't, especially for dishonorable discharges. Thats also why the above people said that your average infantryman will only get R gear, not F.
Kliko
QUOTE (AppliedCheese @ Oct 18 2010, 05:08 PM) *
So, in summary, to design your UCAS infantry, follow these guidelines:

30k External Gear limit (includes your software at steep discount), include TacNet on all. Can limit rating for lowers.
20k, and only "R" rating, Internal gear limit.
Some rifle, smart gunned and vented, with a simpler yet similar cousin available for its opponents

I like the platoon layout, though the AT guys are probaply replaced by guys carrying around the Ballista backpack system for additional versatility. I also like the standard weapon system. The m22/23 variants are ok for standard grunts and marksman. The gas-vent I really gimps the m22a2 in my opinion (though any merc worth his money will have the strength to get that third point of RC). For the shock troopers you really want the Ares Alpha (which is already going around since 2054). Note that I used some more advanced grenades for the shock troopers as well.

The problem with internal gear is that my first upgrade from extra budget on the Grunts would include light military armor over any cyber and the first cyber I'd put in is a datajack for DNI-control of that kick-ass military helmet options. It increases survivability just so much more over additional passes.

The force multiplier for grunts (and shock troopers) is their combat drugs. Which is just way more cheaper compared to the WR1. Also, at least in sr3 smartlink is so overrated compared to the alternatives (aim before you shoot). And a lot of the stock AR's come equipped with internal laser sights already. (for example, I'd equip any European military with an out of the box FN-HAR, perhaps including bipod and shock pads - stuff that doesn't break easily).


sabs
Combat Drugs are highly addictive. Though perhaps Cram is used by the UCAS. It seems unlikely.

Grunts in full kit should have light or medium military grade armor.
Grunts walking around in the base? Should be in uniform with no armor.

MP's should be in Light or Medium spec, depending on the threat level of the area.

For example, Fort Lewis has a problem that the 405'ers like to shoot at them from the Highway.
Those guys on patrol are probably in Full Kit with Medium Grade Armor.
Places a bit safer, with out crazy gangers who like to take pot shots at them, are probably in much less armor.
CanRay
Drugs and the military have been a touchy subject for a bit.

After all, look at combat pilots... Just make sure you don't look at them in a way that would constitute being "a bad way"...
Apathy
It doesn't make sense to cyber soldiers with ware that can be easily replaced by equipment. Any of the vision or hearing enhancements can be replaced by mods to helmet or goggles, which are passed on to the next soldier when ones time is up or you die. For 27.5K (retail) they can put a control rig, skillwires 4, attention coprocessor 3. If feeling generous, add a sleep regulator for another 10K. These allow the soldier to be useful almost immediately, well before his natural skills catch up to replace his skillsofts. None of this can be replaced with external equipment, all of them would get used on a regular basis, and when the soldier becomes a civilian there's no need to deactivate cyber.

For special forces soldiers with longer contracts, you could replace the skillwires with a MBW2
sabs
I could see a 10 year veteran who has seen action having a cyber eye, or a cyber limb of some sort. Career military is going to be way more likely in 'Civilized' countries.
Doc Chase
I wouldn't want to waste my time and money putting 'ware in a trooper who's going to wash out of Basic or their MOS school. Let it be a re-up bonus after their first tour - certain MOS gets a certain suite, or if they require medical intervention to rehabilitate - offer it then. Guy loses a leg? Give him a new one, send him back in. Maybe he can get it cleared with command to add a suite. Make the grunts pay for it, but give it at a discount if it's not a medical necessity or caused by action within the military. If Joe Private wants a 'ware suite, he pays for it (or takes it out against his paycheck) and stays in until it's paid off while his wages are garnished. If Joe Private steps on a bouncer and loses his leg, then it was in the line of duty and DOD can put a new one on him.
sabs
But DOD is almost certainly putting in a base line, unaugmented, obvious Cyber Leg with no thrills and whistles.
Doc Chase
With options to upgrade it if he wants to pay for it, or if he lost it doing something suitably heroic.

Do recall we're working with a governmental body that ships everything out to the lowest bidder. nyahnyah.gif
sabs
Nah these days everything is shipped out to the highest contributor to Campaign Finances.

You don't have to be the lowest bidder. Just in the ball park, and make it up on "unexpected expenses" and going over budget.
Doc Chase
Congress isn't the one that approves the contracts. nyahnyah.gif
sabs
True, but it does help.

And the Military Industrial Complex is the single largest employer of post-military career pencil pushers.
If you get the reputation of not playing ball, you don't get offered a job after you get passed up for promotion for the 3rd time and your career is over.

Damn, does that count as politics? or economics talk?
Doc Chase
I think we're straying from the point, but we can steer it back on track.

I'm pretty sure DoD - pork barrels and all - are going to want to strongly lean towards Ares products since they're so buddy-buddy, and they're going to want a baseline product that will work for the gross majority of their people. That's going to be the basic stuff, maybe alphaware grade if they get a good deal on their contract. Even so, if EVO can come in with a better product under the Ares bid, then there's a decent chance that DoD will go with it since it's less cash out of their budget for mods and more for those nice bombers or boats.
sabs
True.

Unless Ares starts doing things like throwing in 10 free cybersurgeries a year with the purchase of every Bomber or something.

I suspect that the UCAS Armed Forces Medical Coverage is privatized and farmed out lock stock and barrel to someone. Maybe DocWagon, Crashcart or perhaps even Ares Battlefield Medical Services™
Doc Chase
The UCAS has a fairly good Medical Corps available to do the surgeries if they're as outpatient as 4th ed claims them to be. Military medical coverage would...be difficult. It would likely be a AA-rated nobody's ever heard of that does nothing but medical insurance for governments and works out contracts with all the megas so that soldiers are covered anywhere they go - if not just the government itself that sends the invoices for coverage into the unstoppable maw of red tape. Tough to say.
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