Did you chop the Edge attribute for any particular reason? Pixies start with a 7 max.



-k

yes because there's no good reason why they should get higher edge than other critters and even metahumans. I want it to be somewhat consistent. furthermore the author didn't think this through himself and there are debates wether they start with 1 or 2.

I assume to be fair. Just kidding. Obviously, the goal isn't to gimp pixies into oblivion, but they do seem to have a lot of big bonuses all over the place.

@Yerameyahu
Shifters have regeneration, thats why they have the allergy. (And because you kill werwolfs with a silver sword)

@AStarshipforAnts

Well, thats a problem. Not really. If the dosage would be the problem, they would even pay less.

All the problems they might have do not exist due to the abstractions in Shadowrun. Which I would not change, because it would fuck up other charecters equally.
If you get all the stuff like interferance of different drugs, immun responses to certain chemicals etc. in the game, the cybersam would just start to cry.

@

Irion, not the mythic allergies, pollution allergies. I must have been thinking of something else.

Eh, I always thought it was to offset the fact that it is often really easy to kill pixies.



-k

I want to make everything as overly complicated and convoluted as humanly possible.

Yo, as far as strength goes... I hate to be stupid, but it doesn't break immersion for me to have a Strength-amped pixie physad with a sword three times the length of its body, as long as the grip is nice and thin. If the strength to wield it isn't coming from physical muscles, maybe size doesn't play into it at all?

Presumably that's where the strength *is* coming from. But what matters most (IMO) is the immersion. If it's okay for your table to have Sephiroth-silly (well, more Cloud) weapon proportions, then that's okay for your table.

However, Dwarves are *plenty* strong, and Arsenal has rules restricting *them*. It's a very minor penalty: -1 DP for Reach 2+. For the Pixie, -2 DP for Reach 1+ wouldn't be out of the question, especially given how big their Agility-based DP will be anyway. If the non-variable nature of that rule was a problem, make it variable: penalty of -2*(Reach), or -1*(Reach+1) [Reach 0=0, in this case], etc.

More important, however, is guns, because this is Shadowrun. You might do the same thing, adapting the Using Two-Weapon Firearm rule (same source) for smaller-than-rifle weapons (as some people suggested earlier).

Use whatever your group thinks is fair, including no changes at all.

We have a pixie mage NPC/GMPC in our current game that uses a custom made dart rifle. Much less kick than even a light pistol and we're just using the specs for a dart pistol so that the damn thing makes sense.

Edit: Well mostly she uses her magic, but on occasions where it's necessary she has the dart rifle.

To be precise its Reach of 2 or more, which is kinda weird as no melee weapon in the game has reach 3 or more.

I just realized something. Laser weapons have no recoil. You could make a pixie-modified Ares Redline that the pixie holds like a rocket launcher and go to town.

I so want to do this now.

And how is she supposed to carry the ammunition?
A pixie might carry two magazins in a freaking backpack.
A simple magazin is heavy enough (comparde to the weight of a pixie) to throw her of balance.
I think most peoble do not consider the disadvantages that come with beeing that small.
Yes, a pixie mage is strong, but on the other hand, every mage is strong.

The only thing, which is annoying, is that they get the full 8 boxes. Lower this to 6 or 5 and they would be balanced.

Good luck trying to fit a backpack over those wings...

I think that Uneducated quality in pixies is a travesty.

I mean, from the fluff, pixies only really exist in some remote parts of England and France, and sure, those pixies would be Uneducated. But to make barbarism a genetic condition is weird. If your pixie is running the shadows in say, Seattle, why should it be Uneducated? If it's still primitive, why isn't it back home where it belongs?

The point is, Uneducated is a Nurture flaw, not a Nature flaw. Hence it shouldn't be a racial quality. Just increase the racial cost for pixies by 20bp, and people can take Uneducated if they like.

(Just to start balancing pixies. God, what awful things are they.)

Um, Max? I was exactly that precise already. 'Reach 2+' means 'Reach 2 or more'. You quoted it.

I agree it's odd they did that if there's no Reach 3, but I'm also glad there's no Reach 3!

Pixies are a Sapient Critter, so they're Uneducated. Done. They *don't* grow up in a metahuman family in Seattle. The ones running the Shadows learned (=bought it off).

Could you remind me, why pixies are actually in SR world? They are just too 'fairy tales' for SR, IMHO. And pixie as PC... That is just ridiculous.

In a word?

Pandering.

Sasquash has a 2 reach
Kick gives him an extra reach for a total of 3.

@oinopion

Why? I mean with all the stuff in SR...

Pixies = Windlings from Earthdawn
That's why they're in SR

Eh, it's not like Pixies actually need those wings to fly.



Personally, I'm surprised T'skrang and Obsidimen never showed up in SR.

Mebbe the magic level just isn't high enough.



-k

Psh, Obsidimen show up all the time. Where else do the Azzies get their macahuitls from?

Just because we are hitting on the Windlings of earthdawn: Pixies should keep the edge, alone for consistency.

Well, I guess it is true. No matter how bad some ruling is, the moment you try to build up houserules in a forum, they tend to turn out to be even worse.

I figured it'd be something like this. Just remove the one racial name and add "pixie."

Keep in mind that pixies are 1.49 feet tall, in American measurements. It's easier for me to convert things to feet/miles than it is for me to keep it in meters/centimeters.

I think the Fragile quality would be very appropriate for pixies, as should tacking on a lot of modifiers/penalties or just disallowing using missized weapons and tacking on a reach penalty. Don't forget Magic Fingers or getting a Power Pact for Psychokenesis.

sabs, no Reach 3 *weapons*. Obviously a total Reach of 3 (or more) is possible.

Oh
sorry

Well, they have Vanishing.. if they die, they disappear without a trace. So it's not so strange that all that food vanishes into a bottomless pitxie.

Well thinking about some of this, and while I can see why the DV of some weapons like bows, crossbows, etc. would lower; the DV for most of the guns that use bullets wouldn't change. Yes the gun size might change but the ammo wouldn't. Would it not then be more acceptable instead of losing DV to just lose ammo capacity? Lets face, yes smaller gun uses same shot, but it cant hold as much as its regular counter part.

Well, firing a typical semi-automatic handgun... regular barrel length is what, anywhere from 3 to 5 inches? Say 4.

That'd be the equivalent to a grenade launcher for a pixie, more or less. Multiply x4 for the equivalent of 18 inch barrel, and a .38 caliber would be roughly equal to a 40mm bore.

The pixie would have to fire it two-handed, and probably need special grips, but I can see them being able to handle the recoil.

I agree the ammo capacity might have to be reduced, a full mag of 9-14 rounds would be inconvenient for a pixie.



-k

Ok, I see what yer saying and I guess I also overlooked or failed to mention the weapon shrinking. Therefore it fits more to the pixie but has the same kind of ammo. So a loss of ammo capacity, and -now that I think of it- a loss of range?

Range is a function of barrel length and the ammo. Since those factors are staying the same, range should stay the same.

So you'd have the same barrel & breech block assembly, but pretty much everything else would have to be size-modified. Ammo capacity wouldn't HAVE to decrease, but if it doesn't slinging the weapon around will be troublesome - imagine a grenade launcher with a clip sticking down past your knees. So just for usability reasons a 4-6 round clip is probably more convenient.

And just from a perspective of lack of mass, I'd probably apply the Heavy Weapon "double uncompensated recoil" rules. Because for a Pixie, nearly everything is a "Heavy Weapon".

This is probably what a pixie-modified revolver would look like. Just imagine wings on the back of the soldier.




-k

Agreed. Hehe, that's a funny mental image! Pixie McBadass.

Personally, I'd just use the Conceal table and bump everything a couple notches. Holdout pistol = Pixie heavy pistol, machine pistol = Pixie assault rifle, and anything bigger is a Heavy Weapon, *if* possible at all (SMG = Pixie machine gun?).

But barrel length wouldn't be staying the same is what I am saying. The gun "shrinks". I know the gun would have to have some length just for the shot itself, but that doesn't mean that the barrel can't shrink to accommodate their size.

I think KarmaInferno's position is that the gun would not shrink. It's a question of grips. You *could* use Barrel Reduction to make the actual weapon a little smaller (esp. if you're using something like my Conceal-based suggestion).

The barrel doesn't HAVE to shrink.

If it's already the equivalent of a grenade launcher for a pixie anyhow, you might as well have the full length.

A 4 inch long barrel would be roughly the equivalent of a 16 inch long barrel for a human. That's not too unreasonable.



-k

Are you telling me size doesnt matter

Nope. He is trying to say, that the design would change. You can not shrink down a gun. Thus would make it quite useless.
The bullet speed would be too slow not to mention the accuracy.
So actually he says: Size does matter.

So in order to modify a weapon for "smaller" persons you would need to change the art of operation.
A pixie revolver would not be a revolver. A pixie would need two hands to hold it and as said it would look like a human grenade launcher. Thus keeping the size of the barrel and the size of the ammunition. Thus concluding, that it is impossible to mod anything larger than a SMG or maybe some single shot weapons as assault cannons.

and the joke went over your head.

also You can shrink down a weapon. It doesn't make it useless, it makes it quite different from the original but not useless.

I would put forward, Hold Out=Pixie Light Pistol, Light Pistol= Pixie Heavy Pistol, Machine Pistol = Pixie SMG, and SMG = Pixie Assault Rifle/LMG.

Maybe, but they're not just slightly smaller. They're tiny. Smaller than children. To a child, perhaps your mapping makes sense, but (IMO) it's not extreme enough for pixies.

Pixies are on average 18 inches tall. Everything to them is 4 times the size than it is for humans. They're tiny.

My pixie's van is a damn luxury three-story apartment for her scale.





-k

Its seems way easier to me to just covert above then to go through the arguments of weapon size conversion. Given that we have Nano-Forge technology in SR4, it is certainly possible to turn out Pixie scaled versions of anything, so really it is a matter of making the rules fit with the product, if you go any lower then light pistols then your basically forcing pixies to go into magic, which in many ways is fine (Goodness knows they are perfect for it). But I think it is negative to close doors where you don't have to. Also lets face it, if your gonna charge them 150% life style, that money has gotta go somewhere, why not into advanced miniaturization?

Huh? If you actually 'shrink' the gun, you're changing range, power, everything. This is the reason shrink/enlarge rays don't work: nothing simply scales and remains functional. The size customization is a question of grips and things, not a literal fabrication of a 1:4-scale working model. Hell, pixie-'sized' armor is still *thick*, or it wouldn't stop bullets. Pixie-customized vehicles are the same size, just with child-seats.

If you made actual 'pixie-sized' guns, they'd be weaker than holdouts. It's not punitive or 'closing doors', it's just how it works.

Did you just make a realistic physics argument in a thread about Pixies? O_o

Yes my grasp of physics is good enough to see the fails there, but as i stated above. We are fitting system to product not the other way around, if the system wants pixies then let not make the pixie do only the thing they are best at imo.

Not *too* realistic. If you let them have a pea shooter that hits like a Pred, it'll break immersion. It's just much more appropriate for the this tiny thing to wrap arms around the gun and struggle to hang on; that, or use its Str 3 to hold a comically oversized gun. Either way, you have to be at least setting-coherent. If they could make smaller guns that hit equally hard, wouldn't they do that for everyone, minor extra costs be damned? Anyway, Shadowrun is all *about* misfits in a society still mostly built for humans. Trolls largely do *not* have 'native'-sized guns, either. Instead, they use re-gripped bigger guns, and sometimes look silly holding comically undersized gear.

Besides, Pixies have great Agility. They'll be fine with a zweihander pistol or machine pistol.

I agree you can't give a pixie a 1/4 scale predator and let it do the same damage. But there needs to be happy medium. If we do it straight by the number pixies should never have a strength of 2 (Which we both know will be the starting strength of basically every pixie ever). I do enjoy the OMG Fairy with vastly oversized gun thing, and that should certainly come up in any game that has a pixie at some point. But you gotta meet half way light pistols stats are low enough to be a real penalty but they are still playable. So maybe those cartridges are filled with Pixie dust to make'em do that kind of damage. But to do otherwise just means every pixie everywhere is dropping force 9 stun bolts on you from 100 meters up while under improved invisibility spell. I'm just saying why set ourselves up for that kind of evil?
1/4 scale predator+Pixie dust=4P??
Or if that hurts to much just make the damage code fit your image while leaving the ammo capacity and other features intact.
So pixie scale heavy pistol does 3P, light 2P and holdout 1P, see what i'm getting at?

*shrug* I mean, do what you want. The difference between each 'level' is basically just 1 DV, so it doesn't really matter much.

Remember that 'every pixie everywhere' is… like 6 pixies.