I have a bit of fascination with ghouls but the dual nature always turns me off, too vulnerable to mages unless you're a mage yourself and I'd rather not go down that road.

I was reading last night, however, and noticed that Runner's Companion mentions that if an infected gets cyberware, they lose all their powers (except claws and stuff) and that Dual Natured is listed as a power in their entry. So if I install Cyberware in a Ghoul, is it still dual natured.

Nope. It's sort of the classic 'ghoul fix' move. The downside is they're hard to cyber and start with 1 less Essence, so some people might prefer to go Adept.

I would say yes provided they weren't mages/adepts who had raised their magic above 1 (or if the cyberware involved lowered their essence sufficiently to drop their magic to 0 at any rate). However don't ghouls use their astral sight to see at all? I thought they were physically blind, or am I mixing that up with something else? (Currently AFB).

If they got cybereyes, they get sight and lose Astral in one easy package. Or, they can simply wear a camera and trodes.

Ghouls burn out just like anyone else with magic and essence loss.

<sing> I burned out and I liked it! </sing>

Ghoul with Cyber Eyes.. still get to be a Ghoul, no more being an Astral Paraplegic everyone likes to beat on.

Really? ANY cyber and they loose ALL powers, even if they would still have an essence / magic rating above 1? That's kinda lame. On the other hand, they might also loose "Dietary Requirement: Human Flesh" and "Infection", right? So are they even still ghouls? Seems like passing out free cyber-eyes in the ghoul community would be a great public works project- stops the disease from spreading, eliminates a socially awkward dietary situation, and being able to see normally helps the ghouls (at least the ones still capable of real thought) to get along in regular society.

Does this even make sense? Its not like ghouls have regeneration, etc. And some folks have cyber BEFORE they get infected - what about them? Are they effectively immune to becoming ghouls?

Nope, they'd keep the diet, and they don't actually *have* Infection as a power, do they?

Cyber before infection doesn't count, unless they're already below 1; in that case, they die.

No goose, it needs to bring magic down to 0, but most ghouls only have 1 magic, so any cyber at all would drop them to 0 magic.

@Yeram - Kinda. If they have essence 1 or less when they are first infected, they'll die before they transform. If they have essence greater than 1 and less than 2 they'll survive the transformation, but have no magic (essence below 1, max magic 0).

Edit: And you're correct, they keep their diet requirement, and they can still infect people because it is a disease, not a power like vampire infection is.

AFAIK, Infected get Magic 1 if they survive the process. Am I thinking of only Vampires and Vendigo? :/

I'm fine with 'mundane' ghouls, for that segment of society that have Essence 1.1 to 1.9. Honestly, I'd prefer a lot *more* mundane (and/or non-Sapient) ghouls.

Well, it is a bit of a quandary, because becoming a ghoul does give you a magic of 1, but having a essence of <1 means that you have a maximum magic of 0.

So, by the rules you both cannot have a magic rating, and are required to be given a magic rating. Personally I take the 'max magic 0' to be of greater importance than 'give magic rating of 1', and so the ghoul would be mundane.

No, I meant Essence >1, <2. If it's <1, you just die.

Here's the other rule: "The character loses all Resonance and technomancer abilities and gains the Infected (Ghoul) Quality (see Positive Infected Qualities, p. 79, Runner’s Companion) and a Magic attribute of 1 (or retains his own Magic attribute, if higher)."

Right, but if you start with 1<essence<2 then you will end with 0<essence<1, which means max magic 0.

Oh, I see. Hmm. I dunno. Either way is fine with me.

This rule is intended for character creation, which in the hierarchy of things, the character’s race and qualities are selected before buying any cyberware.
Thus, the rule is most likely intended for (or assumes) essence greater than 2.
Thus, if you get the Infected Qualities after character creation, and with an essence between 1.0 and 2.0, then your Magic should be 0.

Er, no. The rule I quoted is certainly, explicitly intended for post-creation infection. It's in Running Wild, and it's the rule for the disease.

Clearly I cannot chose the rule in front of you!

But to learn of the rules you must have studied. And in studying the rules you would have deduced that PC's are mortal and would have endeavored to put the rule as far away from you as possible, so I clearly cannot choose the rule in front of me!

So, which one is superior, the rule for qualities or the general rule for essence and magic limit?

Sounds like the easiest way to approach this is that if your essence is reduced to less than one when you become a ghoul, you outright die instead.

But then one thing to consider is what percentage of the general public are going to be so heavily loaded with cyberware and bioware that their essence is less than 2 prior to becoming infected? From all that I've read it seems that percentage would be rather low.

I always played it as "essence < 1, magic = 0". It makes non-Awakened ghouls playable.

I agree with both of those points, Spellbinder. But, there's nothing *wrong* with 'naturally' mundane ghouls, so I don't really care if the general Essence/Magic rule takes precedence.

I would say the general rule for essence and magic limit. It sets max magic to 0, and is a very 'big' rule.

The rule for a ghoul gaining magic is fairly specialized, and doesn't specifically mention that it overrides the other rule. You also have precedent from Latent Awakening, which when it happens gives you a magic of 1, but mentions that if your essence is below 1, then you don't gain the magic, and thus can never become awakened. I'd follow this example for becoming infected.