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Christian Lafay
Alright we started talking about throwing the Horrors both at the sun and to Jupiter, so what else can we do? Granted my knowledge of the Horrors isn't that great but it seems to me they need high magic levels to come into our world so wouldn't the lack of the gaiasphere (or what ever it is called) be enough to keep them away, or at least limit them greatly? Have all the high technology and the great minds of the age kicking it on the moon and Mars while the magicians and the phys-ads try to put up the good fight.
Draco18s
QUOTE (Christian Lafay @ Nov 15 2010, 12:59 PM) *
kicking it on the moon


That would create a gaiasphere. indifferent.gif
Christian Lafay
Really? I always assumed that would require tons of plant life and similar things instead of the soy to poop to soy recycling system that would initially be needed.
Karoline
Ideally a moon colony would have real plant life to help provide both oxygen and sustenance. And of course soy beans are plants too. So yeah, if you have a functioning moon base, it is going to have some level of mana. It'll still be a fairly high BC, but it won't be total void.
sabs
As for mars.
How do we know that Mars didn't use to be a Civilization that got wiped out during a High Mana phase when the horrors showed up?
Dakka Dakka
I know almost nothing about the Horrors, but wouldn't a large BC make them a lot easier to defeat?
sabs
Unless they're aligned with said BC.
Dakka Dakka
Only positive BC can be aspected. BC in space, from lack of life, most surely is negative BC (void or ebb)
Christian Lafay
QUOTE (sabs @ Nov 15 2010, 08:23 PM) *
As for mars.
How do we know that Mars didn't use to be a Civilization that got wiped out during a High Mana phase when the horrors showed up?

Then we can hope it is out of phase with earth and we bounce back and forth. -shrug-
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Christian Lafay @ Nov 15 2010, 12:59 PM) *
Granted my knowledge of the Horrors isn't that great

With all due respect, Horrors are complex, potent, and varied enough (and the connected questions subtle enough) that if this is the case the proper course of action is to not speculate about them. To take one example, canon is inconsistent on whether Deep Space has an absence of mana, which would be a barrier to the Horrors, or whether it has profoundly corrupted mana, in which case it's a Horror playground and a gigantic embodiment of Ristul. At least up to SR3, the latter interpretation is favoured ("Space is virtually devoid of life, which distorts the mana field and raises the background count to mana warp levels.", emphasis added).

QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Nov 15 2010, 02:24 PM) *
I know almost nothing about the Horrors, but wouldn't a large BC make them a lot easier to defeat?

And here's an example of that issue. In general, Horrors create and operate happily within background count, and one Horror more or less is Background Count (or rather, Background Count is that Horror).

~J
klinktastic
Oh I thought you meant whores....
Inncubi
OK, form the ED rules, the 4th World seems to be a very high background count place. The astral space was described as something pretty thick, even for Astral Sensitive characters (Windlings need to beat a difficulty to see there, and they have natural astral sight).

Mages who use raw magic (either mundane spellcasting, form another post, or simply spellcasting without a matrix) take damage, not according a numbered scale as in SR but according the corrupted area. Certainly the coming of the Horrors -being the invading Zerg-like pests they are- would associate that Background Count in their favor, but they /need/ a high count to start with. At least the big bad baddies, some of which are very subtle and are only astral entities. Lasers would be ineffectual against these and they can take control -as they did in some Kaers- of the metas with influence and have humanity turn on itself... more than it already has.

Also, given that we love wacky religions so much and an entity that seems to come from a Lovecraftian story is prime matter for that thing. Given the Unviersal Brotherhood already happened, so we have a precedent, think it happens in a bigger scale. Just imagine Nadja Daviar and Damien Knight corrupted or even better, again with a precedent, have Lofwyr be corrupted -Horror marked-.

Also, and this is my interpretation, Adepts in Earthdawn measured their skills with ranks -reinforcing the pattern threads of basic abilities- and Circles, measuring their "level". A higher Circle brought new abilities. Now its very easy to make the Circle-Initiation analogy, and if a 14th Circle=14th initiate grade and those were scared of some Horrors, you can make sure that in this very mundane world of ours we'd be pretty powerless against them.

So, yes, lasers and Thor shots are nice against Horror constructs and lesser physical entities. Against the big baddies... I doubt it.

*Thinks about how a horror would feed very nicely in a sweatshop in a third world-country*

If I remember how Wraith's worked in SR2, when someone around them felt pain their force would rise. I once faced them, and from a synergistic and sick feeding between themselves, they rose to Force 32 at the end of the fight. Think what forces can be reached in an open battlefield...

Edit: On the other hand the magic eating bacteria spread around Chicago would be a nice surprise... "Hey Verji, here's a bad case of the flu for ya!"
Whipstitch
QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Nov 15 2010, 03:37 PM) *
And here's an example of that issue. In general, Horrors create and operate happily within background count, and one Horror more or less is Background Count (or rather, Background Count is that Horror).

~J


One of the fun things about the Horror Kagetenshi is talking about (Ristul) is the synergy it has with Taint. Taint is a Horror that thrives off of corrupted mana and can more or less efficiently recharge itself/grow stronger given sufficient time and a Tainted/Corrupted area to work with. It also exists only on the Astral and thus is a hard target to pin down given that its preferred haunts are loaded with background count and that it likes to Mark people when they manipulate mana. That's a wee tad inconvenient given that Taint is something like a circle 10 caster whose Mark allows him to use your body to target spells while he's nestled in astral space. He can also corrupt/redirect your own spell casting, so if he's Marked you he could just jolly well force feed you your own Mana Bolts if he's feeling frisky.

Honestly, I really don't know what you're supposed to do to get rid of something like that if it really feels like hanging out in Ristul's turf (or in Ristul itself, depending on how you look at this). Venturing into sentient malevolent background count so you can try to kill an astral entity that lives to curb stomp Magicians isn't my idea of a fun weekend. Presumably the powers that be in the 4th world agree, since their answer was to just hold up in Kaers and pray.
Neraph
A moon base is a -7 BC, as stated in Street Magic at least.

If nothing else, the invent of the taser/stick-n-shock round is a huge stopping force against the Willies. So are flamethrowers (pass the blessed promethium, Brother) and laser guns. And gauss cannons are really, really effective.

And for those mind-bendy powers of theirs - that's what drones and riggers are for.
Whipstitch
Someone still has to give the orders. You're not immune to a Horror's powers just because you're jacked in.
Christian Lafay
So carpet bomb with magic eating bacteria and get drone technology to the level of Surrogates, that is Joe Schmoe being able to work one like a pro.
Neraph
QUOTE (Whipstitch @ Nov 15 2010, 04:08 PM) *
Someone still has to give the orders. You're not immune to a Horror's powers just because you're jacked in.

Actually you would be. You can't suffer from their mind bending powers because your mind isn't there - the whole magic and technology bit.

EDIT: And to clarify, I mean that the rigger's body would not be in the immediate vicinity. I had thought that to be assumed, but I guess some people think waltzing a rigger's meat into a combat situation where he's otherwise preoccupied is a good idea. It isn't.
Whipstitch
Horrors are really, really, really good at crapping all over line of sight rules. That's pretty much the whole point of Marking, in many cases. Magic vs. Tech also doesn't hit me as particularly relevant here. If someone drives you insane with magic, you're not going to be suddenly sane when someone puts some trodes on you.
Christian Lafay
QUOTE (Whipstitch @ Nov 15 2010, 11:15 PM) *
Horrors are really, really, really good at crapping all over line of sight rules. That's pretty much the whole point of Marking, in many cases.

Rig from modern Kaers?
Neraph
That's interesting, because there's no such thing as Marking in Shadowrun. In fact, the entire premise of this thread is that Horrors exist in Shadowrun - something that is more than unclear.

And in any event, a R6 Pilot with a R3 Adaptability autosoft and a Fuzzy Logic system has up to 18 dice to function autonomously; more than enough. And I seriously doubt the Horror's mind abilities would work on an AI. Maybe Ghosts in the Machine would turn out to be the way to go.
Whipstitch
QUOTE (Christian Lafay @ Nov 15 2010, 06:17 PM) *
Rig from modern Kaers?



Helpful, but a lot of Kaers didn't really fall from brute force so much as from being undermined. I think tech would help, but mostly against Horror constructs. It's their servants that really want to tear your limbs off. The Horrors themselves would rather trick people into giving eachother tattoos that then allow the Horror to control whatever limb it's attached to and then feed upon the resulting terror and revulsion. Talking about this stuff just in terms of open warfare is honestly a bit weird given the subject matter.
Doc Chase
QUOTE (Neraph @ Nov 15 2010, 11:23 PM) *
Maybe Ghosts in the Machine would turn out to be the way to go.


Interesting use for JackBNimble.
Christian Lafay
QUOTE (Doc Chase @ Nov 15 2010, 11:26 PM) *
Interesting use for JackBNimble.

The purpose of it all along. Damn, Big D is clever.
Neraph
I don't follow. I basically just picked it up in 4th Ed and haven't read any of the fiction for it. Explain?
Draco18s
QUOTE (Neraph @ Nov 15 2010, 05:28 PM) *
I don't follow. I basically just picked it up in 4th Ed and haven't read any of the fiction for it. Explain?



To Captain Chaos, I leave the encrypted file JackBNimble. Whatever rewards it reveals are yours. I had no success trying to decrypt this thing, but Iíve always believed it contained some communication from another world. Of course, I could be wrong. Iíve also notified the Draco Foundation to provide for your well-being in the event the file deals you a debilitating injury.

During the events of the Crash 2.0, the encryption on the JackBNimble file failed, and the program ran itself. The program appeared to "save" Captain Chaos and other deckers during the Crash 2.0, then dissapeared. This does not, of course, mean JackBNimble might not be a communication from another world (a bit of a tip of the hat to William Gibson, perhaps).
For more on JackBNimble, please see the Artifact Index.

Portfolio of a Dragon: Dunkelzahn's Secrets, System Failure
Neraph
I've read the Will and poked around on the Ancient Files, but I guess since I haven't read the fiction a decent amount is still lost on me. Oh well.
Whipstitch
QUOTE (Neraph @ Nov 15 2010, 06:23 PM) *
That's interesting, because there's no such thing as Marking in Shadowrun. In fact, the entire premise of this thread is that Horrors exist in Shadowrun - something that is more than unclear.


This hit me as sorta hostile and it makes me wonder what you really want out of this thread or even out of me. I don't think anyone here is arguing that this topic doesn't features a ton of conjecture by its very nature. Horrors would essentially have to be homebrewed in order to be carried over to Shadowrun 4th, make no mistake. But discussions about what they were capable of in Earthdawn is still relevant if you actually, you know, intend to keep things a bit consistent between the two settings rather than just assume all or even most Horrors can be safely assumed to function like most any other astral entity that will go down once you taser it.
Neraph
It wasn't intended to be completely hostile, but the ED=SR stuff irritates me. Not sure why.

But yeah, if you want to intentionally homebrew spirits that don't follow the rules for spirits at all, then obviously they'll be super-powerful. My main point is that with the technology that the 6th world has, very little in the way of spirits should be scary. Sure they can mind-F you. Sure they can rip you apart without much trouble. Sure they can do wierd things to you and make you want to cry - which was their point. But when you finally get a clear line of fire... trouble's over.

If they're spirits then they're just as vulnerable to elemental effects, laser guns, APDS rounds, and gauss cannons as any other spirit. Not to mention atomic weapons and the BC they produce..
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Neraph @ Nov 15 2010, 05:23 PM) *
And I seriously doubt the Horror's mind abilities would work on an AI.

You do? They've worked on dragons and epic-Force Metal Elementals. AIs likely aren't even Name-Givers.

But I've learned that threads like this mostly devolve into an extended and poorly-organized lesson on Earthdawn. I want to strongly encourage reading the base material instead of drawing out explanations through poorly-founded lines of argument; it will save everyone time.

~J
Karoline
QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Nov 15 2010, 05:56 PM) *
You do? They've worked on dragons and epic-Force Metal Elementals. AIs likely aren't even Name-Givers.

But I've learned that threads like this mostly devolve into an extended and poorly-organized lesson on Earthdawn. I want to strongly encourage reading the base material instead of drawing out explanations through poorly-founded lines of argument; it will save everyone time.

~J

Aren't their mind effecting abilities magic? Magic doesn't work on the matrix. Period. Thus does nothing to an AI.
Kagetenshi
Lucifer Deck.

~J
jaellot
QUOTE (Karoline @ Nov 15 2010, 06:00 PM) *
Aren't their mind effecting abilities magic? Magic doesn't work on the matrix. Period. Thus does nothing to an AI.


Another thing was the ones who like to mess with minds do so for the emotional devestation it inflicts. AI's probably don't make those same kind of emotional connections and reactions, so they probably wouldn't be targeted anyway.

Of course some Horrors just like to destroy everything, so once enough of the computers, servers, etc. that make the Matrix what it is get trashed the AI's would have problems. So the Horrors still win! Yay for wholesale destruction of all thigns on Earth!
flowswithdrek
QUOTE (Neraph @ Nov 15 2010, 10:51 PM) *
It wasn't intended to be completely hostile, but the ED=SR stuff irritates me. Not sure why.

But yeah, if you want to intentionally homebrew spirits that don't follow the rules for spirits at all, then obviously they'll be super-powerful. My main point is that with the technology that the 6th world has, very little in the way of spirits should be scary. Sure they can mind-F you. Sure they can rip you apart without much trouble. Sure they can do wierd things to you and make you want to cry - which was their point. But when you finally get a clear line of fire... trouble's over.

If they're spirits then they're just as vulnerable to elemental effects, laser guns, APDS rounds, and gauss cannons as any other spirit. Not to mention atomic weapons and the BC they produce..


When magic returned to the earth the rules changed, if/when the Horrors arrive the rules to some extent would likely change also. Horrors may be physical, astral, or duel natured. The duel natured ones can be in two different places at the same time and if you only kill one part of the whole the other will re-appear.

Some of the Horror powers are just down right nasty, damage shift is the one that springs to mind Ė so you just hit it with a Thor shot, awesome, you take the damage! Yes even the powerful horrors can be sent packing, but the effort required is massive, and as the mana level rises they become legion so locking yourself in the archology until it subsides becomes the only true way to be sure of survival and even that is not guaranteed.

However some horrors can still be annoyed cheaply, those large physical horrors that eat everything like swarms of insects would take a beating from cluster munitions, mine fields, robot sentry guns, napalm etc
sabs
QUOTE (Neraph @ Nov 15 2010, 11:51 PM) *
It wasn't intended to be completely hostile, but the ED=SR stuff irritates me. Not sure why.


You must be a Shadowrun player that came to the game after FASA went under perhaps?

ED = SR is the main preface of them even writing EarthDawn.

That's like being a D&D player who only ever played Forgotten Realms getting upset that Greyhawk isn't real D&D.

As for people insisting that Magic doesn't work on the Matrix.

Deep Resonance Realms and Technomancers really fly in the face of that.

And yes, I know technomancers can't have a Magic Rating.. because they have a Resonance Rating.
But really, to me that's just saying that the Technomancer Tradition is so different from the others that their world view makes Castings spells, and Spirits not viable.

But Technomancer abilities, Echo's and Sprites are a clear indication that some kind of Magic works on the Matrix.

Karoline
QUOTE (sabs @ Nov 15 2010, 08:03 PM) *
But Technomancer abilities, Echo's and Sprites are a clear indication that some kind of Magic works on the Matrix.

Not really. It is a clear indication that something is happening. There is no indication at all that it is Magic.
sabs
QUOTE (Karoline @ Nov 16 2010, 02:06 AM) *
Not really. It is a clear indication that something is happening. There is no indication at all that it is Magic.


You call it 'something' I'll call it Magic smile.gif
Karoline
QUOTE (sabs @ Nov 15 2010, 08:09 PM) *
You call it 'something' I'll call it Magic smile.gif

Just because something is something doesn't mean it is Magic. Monowire is something, but it isn't magic.
Christian Lafay
But a cat that is both alive and dead in box could be seen as magic. Just science we can't properly understand yet.
Karoline
QUOTE (Christian Lafay @ Nov 15 2010, 08:20 PM) *
But a cat that is both alive and dead in box could be seen as magic. Just science we can't properly understand yet.

'could be seen as' is not 'is'.

Monowire also 'could be seen as' magic by some people, but once again, it is in fact not magic.
Inncubi
QUOTE (Karoline @ Nov 15 2010, 08:06 PM) *
Not really. It is a clear indication that something is happening. There is no indication at all that it is Magic.


True, but Magic is one of the best explanations for the "technomancer" fenomenon.
They are simply so analogous that its something you have to consider at least.

For teh sake of it, I'll even say that the Matrix has gained such a strong pattern and Name, that technomancers have woven threads to it, and Submersion is a way to reinforce said threads and to customize those you have already woven. Its not that the Matrix is the same as the Astral Space, but if we accept that ED=Shadowrun, then Magic works on the same principles.
Magic is like physics, its everywhere, except it works in waves and in ebbs and flows, but essentially it is a way for people to relate to reality and modify it according to their beliefs, ideas and their ability to give a meaning -"name"- to things.

Things have patterns that are reinforced as they are Named and used by "Name Givers" (metahumans). From sheer use, and the importance it holds on the world's economy, information exchange and to John "Wageslave" Doe's regular life, its pattern would start to become incredibly complex pretty fast.
It started with the Matrix 1.0, with the Otaku and AI's as the first manifestations. With the crash, the pattern was heavily modified, but not destroyed, hence Matrix 2.0 appearing again. The cutting off certain Otaku can be explained by saying that their threads were so heavily modified that they cannot connect again to the pattern. Technomancers are simply people who have managed to weave threads to it. Their abilities are manifestaton in modifying that pattern. Just like regular meta humans can alter physical reality with magic. In short the matrix is kind of an Earthdawn "Magical Item" (Threaded Item) that can support a huge amount of threads. The powers gained are like those gained from threaded items with storng patterns - like the "Purifier" sword- or Thera's Orichalcum pillars.

And as for connections between Magic and the Matrix check Imago, from SR2. It can help in giving further credence to this theory.

PS: This is not fluff, this is not RAW. Its a possible explanation, and one that integrates ED's and SR's world view. I am not trying to give a truth, but rather a story-exploitable idea


If this explanation is accepted, horrors and matrix interaction could be pretty weird but interesting as well...
Technomancers could be a way to assault the horrors, as their different patterns would interact oddly, maybe allowing the former to avoid the beasties nastier powers.
Karoline
QUOTE (Inncubi @ Nov 15 2010, 08:29 PM) *
If this explanation is accepted, horrors and matrix interaction could be pretty weird but interesting as well...
Technomancers could be a way to assault the horrors, as their different patterns would interact oddly, maybe allowing the former to avoid the beasties nastier powers.

TMs don't get any bonuses against magic, I don't know that they would get any bonuses against horrors either. It certainly is an interesting possibility, TMs being able to strike out at horrors through the matrix, channeling attacks through anything with wireless capabilities.
Inncubi
QUOTE (Karoline @ Nov 15 2010, 08:57 PM) *
TMs don't get any bonuses against magic, I don't know that they would get any bonuses against horrors either. It certainly is an interesting possibility, TMs being able to strike out at horrors through the matrix, channeling attacks through anything with wireless capabilities.


What I had in mind is simply that the lack of conneciton between the source of the powers can make for interesting confrontations. Technomancers being immune to Corrupt Karma -essentially a way to f*ck up Edge-, for example, or even to being horror marked as the pattern is so alien for the horrors to exploit.

Or...Kaers used complex magical puzzles to distract horrors and break their connection to the physical world.
what if a Technomancer and a very good enchanter work together to replicate the complex interconneciton of nodes in the Matrix 2.0 in an orichalcum net of magical and astral significance, thus making the most complex anti-horror puzzle ever produced... saving the sixth world from the New Scourge...
Zyerne
Would Weapon Focus Rocks and judicial application of the O'Kelly-Davis method work?
sabs
Monofilament whips make a certain amount of sense... science wise.. at least as much as anything.

But technomancers can access the wireless matrix, can run programs from their brains. Can interact with the matrix via thoughts and without need of actual programs. They can access parts of the Matrix that regular users cannot. Even superhackers. And they develop even more ludicrous abilities. Sprites make absolutely no sense. They're not AI's they're not Pilots. They're electronic spirits that ignore the rules.


Draco18s
QUOTE (Karoline @ Nov 15 2010, 08:23 PM) *
Monowire also 'could be seen as' magic by some people, but once again, it is in fact not magic.


While I know that you are aware of the phrase "sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" it is clear you're not aware of the corollary:

"Sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology."
Teryn180
As an unpleasant thought, the Matrix has become something akin to a mirror of the Astral Plane. Well, maybe when the magic goes up more, Technomancers and AI will have their own Horrors to deal with.
Kagetenshi
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Nov 15 2010, 10:42 PM) *
While I know that you are aware of the phrase "sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic" it is clear you're not aware of the corollary:

"Sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology."

The corollary is "explained", not "advanced".

~J
PoliteMan
The cheapest way is probably just to pull a Sojurner. AI takes over orbital biological sat, locks out all other users (when Sojurner took over none of the megacorps were able to hack in, they were left with direct physical action and negotiation) and starts cranking out FABIII and seeding it over the planet. In the event of an invasion a decent AI could do it in minutes at most. If neighboring sat weapons become a problem, hack and slave them. Not much the Horros can do about it.
1. No physical attack will work, especially once AIs control the kill stas
2. No mental Horror tricks. AIs are immune to damn near everything (how do you even get LOS to an AI) and that's not even counting the Xenosapients.
3. No magic. Just no, you can't fly through space to attack a sat flooded with FABIII. Besides, if space is a corrupted manasphere, why are there no Horrors there now? No apparent reason for them to go to sleep, since it's not like the mana level is gonna fall because of what happens on Earth.
4. No defense. Yes, the horrors might theoretically be able to alter current FABIII bacteria. Not gonna work against a program in a top-notch biolab that can literally download multiple PHDs into it's brain.
5. Already basically happened in the fluff and that was one AI.

Best part is it requires no coordination among many actors, just one observant AI with decent hacking skills or Rootkit. Necessary sats taken over in minutes at most after Horror emergence and global seeding (or at least major cities, from the Sojurner experience) within a period of days.

Also, I thought that Emergence clearly established that TMs were not magical.
Faraday
QUOTE (PoliteMan @ Nov 15 2010, 10:16 PM) *
Also, I thought that Emergence clearly established that TMs were not magical.

They are most certainly not magical, although their abilities are clearly supernatural. RAW supports it pretty heavily as TMs cannot be awakened, and vice versa. My best guess would be that the matrix has begun to act as an artificial gaiasphere.
nezumi
A lot of the 'the horrors will lose' arguments seem to stem from the assumption that the Horrors will operate under current, vanilla Shadowrun rules, without the benefit of any artifacts, and that these rules will never ever change. I think as long as you rely on that for the basis of your argument, you'll be building on a dangerous assumption.
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