Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Nutrition and Awakened Infected
Dumpshock Forums > Discussion > Shadowrun
Ramaloke
So I was reading up on some DS posts regarding Infected (hemovores in particular) and its effects on an awakened character. I learned that there is a slight update from Running Wild:

QUOTE (Running Wild @ Page 68)
When the character awakens, he has lost all Resonance and technomancer abilities, has acquired the appropriate Infected (Banshee, Dzoo-noo-qua, Goblin, Nosferatu, Vampire, or Wendigo) Quality (see Positive Infected Qualities, p. 79, Runner’s Companion), and has an Essence of 1 and Magic of 1 (or retains her own Magic attribute, if higher).


So I was thinking "Neat, that means my Magician could get infected and not suck terrible goat balls of terrible because of it."

Then I remembered the Nutrition spell:

QUOTE (Street Magic @ Page 170)
Nutrition
Type: P • Range: T • Duration: P • DV: (F÷2)
The Nutrition spell provides a voluntary target with nourishment, allowing them to live off pure mana. One hit is enough to satisfy the target for a few hours, with extra hits increasing the quality of the “meal.” This spell prevents starvation and dehydration, but it does have its down side. Those who abuse this spell for long periods of time risk becoming addicted to magical nourishment (see p.247,SR4).


So Infected Magician + Nutrition = Vegan Vampires?

Also, Addiction to eating Mana would just lose you essence... which you can just eat back up anyway. I suppose the question becomes how often your GM is going to hit you with the addiction Essence loss, but it seems that a Vampire should be able to reduce his essence feeding by a large margin if not entirely with this spell.

Thoughts?
Yerameyahu
You can eat anything you want (subject to individual restrictions), but Nutrition doesn't satisfy dietary requirement Weaknesses. Sorry. smile.gif Neither does it count for Essence Drain, which isn't a dietary requirement to begin with. Essence Drain Infected don't drain Essence because it's food. They do it because they have the Essence Loss Weakness.

Nutrition *could* help, say, a Ghoul (limited diet) avoid some of their need, but I think you're right that it's way more trouble than just getting raw meat. smile.gif
Ramaloke
Ahh, well then, nevermind. So this just gets around having to drink a bloody mary form time to time (the nun, not the mix drink), but not fix the essence requirement.
Yerameyahu
I really don't think it even words for the blood, either, at least in terms of the minimal 'must eat/drink X once a month' requirement. But, the GM might allow it. The spell itself is written as incredibly weak—"a few hours"—but you can keep casting it, I guess.

The reason I don't think it works is because the Dietary Requirement Weakness isn't a 'food' thing. It's more like a vitamin, perhaps: something that the critter must have at a certain interval. "Without the specified requirement in its diet, the critter eventually sickens and dies."
Ramaloke
One could always research a sustained version no? You could do Sustained and Caster Only and it would look like so:

QUOTE
Personal Nutrition
Type: P • Range: T • Duration: S • DV: (F÷2)-3
This spell provides the caster with nourishment, allowing him to live off pure mana. One hit is enough to satisfy the caster for as long as the spell is sustained, with extra hits increasing the quality of the “meal.” This spell prevents starvation and dehydration, but it does have its down side. Those who abuse this spell for long periods of time risk becoming addicted to magical nourishment (see p.247,SR4).


Im pretty sure this would get around at least the blood requirement. You can always drop the spell as a free action whenever you need to start casting for battle, the only issue is having a spell aura in the astral. A Sustaining Foci would be rather cheap at (F/2)-3 as well.

-edit-

QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Dec 11 2010, 08:13 PM) *
-snip-
The reason I don't think it works is because the Dietary Requirement Weakness isn't a 'food' thing. It's more like a vitamin, perhaps: something that the critter must have at a certain interval. "Without the specified requirement in its diet, the critter eventually sickens and dies."
-/snip-


How is that different from a human and food? If you dont eat for *interval of time* you will eventually sicken and die. smile.gif
Sengir
IMO & YMMV:

Infected don't only eat what their dietary requirement dictates. For example the fluff mentions that the Chicago ghouls have their own pig farms for the more "standard" part of their diet. That could conceivably be covered by the Nutrition spell. But if Carl the ghoul gets that urge which only hands will satisfy...

So in case of vampires, I'd say they still need those 5% of their body weight in natural, human blood to feed their "addiction". But anything above that (I guess blood does not have too many calories) could be satisfied with a Nutrition spell.
Ramaloke
IMO the text of the spell pretty well states that it satisfies such things. I mean, "live off pure mana" does not mean "live off pure mana, but dont forget your flinstones vitamins kids!"
Sengir
Even if you want to argue with letters and not logic: The spell description says it prevents starvation, not malnutrition.
Ramaloke
Thats true, but what exactly are the effects gained by extra hits? The spell isn't clear on that, but I would think that a casting with say, 4 hits would not be a meal that would cause malnutrition.
Yerameyahu
I didn't say it *was* a vitamin. I said it's *like* that. smile.gif It's a Paranormal Weakness that the critter has to satisfy. Humans don't have a Paranormal Weakness for 'food'.

Presumably, the extra hits extend the duration. The sentence structure implies that.
Ramaloke
This is on a somewhat related note considering a Sustenance spell might result in addiction but:

Infected and Addiction: Essence (Burnout) = No Sense Whatsoever?

"You are so addicted to draining essence that your body isn't holding up to the strain and you loose essence until you start to die... which you already do anyway."

-edit-

Also is it just me or are Nosferatu ridiculously underpriced? I just did the math and you get 120BP worth of ability bonuses and a boatload of powers. Sure there are some downsides but, damn if it isn't a nice package.
Yerameyahu
I dunno, it doesn't seem very contradictory to me. If you have a bleeding wound on your forearm, you're still worse off if you *also* have a bleeding wound on your thigh, right? But yes, the addiction wouldn't be 'Essence'; that would be silly. It would be 'Sustenance spells'.

Yeah, as far as I'm concerned, Infected aren't PC races. smile.gif
Ramaloke
I'm referring to this:

QUOTE (Runner's Companion @ Page 79)
Another quality to seriously consider is Addiction, which can either represent a character’s addiction to using the Essence Drain power (Addiction: Essence) or to being subject to the Essence Drain power (Addiction: Essence Drain).


But in general, a burnout addiction's essence loss doesn't seem to pose a problem for a infected (it doesn't say maximum essence is lost, just that you lose essence), obviously its something your GM would slap you for but it's one of those "*headscratch* Yeah, I guess it could happen like that." things.
Yerameyahu
Oh, I thought you were talking about being addicted to using Sustenance to substitute for Essence. smile.gif

Yes, presumably being addiction to using Essence Drain would simply add to the rate of Essence Loss you already have (two bleeding wounds). It's *less* of a problem for a critter with Essence Drain (which is only some Infected), but it's still a loss they have to compensate for.
Ramaloke
Well again, I suppose it depends on how often you get hit with essence lost from the addiction. A nosferatu loses one essence every 6 months through essence loss, if you get hit with an addiction essence loss say, every week? Thats a drastic increase in your essence consumption. On the order of 25x the loss rate. Still though thats not too terrible considering that every human without ware is walking around with 6 Essence.

Killing 4.16 People over the course of 6 months isn't really that much more than your average gunbunny is it?
Yerameyahu
Which, honestly, makes a lot more sense than these vampiric beings barely ever having to feed. smile.gif
Ramaloke
Ok, so continuing in the same vein, I noticed this:

QUOTE (Running Wild @ Page 68)
“RENFIELD”
Duration: 7 days Effect: Agility +1, Intuition +1, Strength +1, Euphoria, Immunity (Age), +1 Initiative Pass
“Renfield” is an alchemical compound made from the blood of someone Infected with HMHVV I, and it is used by these creatures to create vampiric pawns. The creator draws some of his own blood and performs certain enchantments on it; this costs him a point of his own Essence. He then injects this drug into his chosen pawn (who may or may not be a willing volunteer).
Once the pawn has become addicted to the drug, he gains the Carrier (HMHVV I) Quality (p. 66) and the Dietary Requirement (“Renfield”) and Essence Loss weaknesses. Once transformed, the pawn is dependent upon the drug for his own Essence. Each dose gives him 1D6 points of Essence. “Renfield’ has a threshold of 3 for the Addiction Test, and it is both mentally and physically addictive.


So, given that, with enough contacts (say, addicted to Renfield contacts), you could become a drug pusher and create an essence engine so to speak. The average roll on a d6 is 3.5 (as 0 is not an option).

Also the addicted aren't actually going to be carriers in certain cases:

QUOTE (Running Wild @ Page 66)
CARRIER Bonus: 5 BP
The character is HMHVV-positive but not Infected, or the character is Infected but carrying multiple strains. Her bodily fluids carry a virus that she cannot express—such as a human carrying the retrovirus that creates fomóraig—which the character can pass on to others. Only an Infected with the Infection power can become a carrier for a retrovirus that is spread only via the Infection power. Any Infected the character cre- ates becomes a carrier for all species of HMHVV for which the character is a carrier. The character receives a –2 negative dice pool modifier to all Social Tests against other metahumans and sasquatches that know she is HMHVV-positive.
This quality may be taken more than once, each for a different strain. The dice pool modifier is cumulative. A character cannot carry the strains for both vampires and nosferatu.


Which seems to be a contradiction in and of itself since the quality prohibits carriers of strains that are transmitted via the infection power, and both vampire and nosferatu can only infect somebody via that power to begin with. Thus the last bit of bolded text is irrelevant as either is impossible anyway.

Also I found this after some thread searching:

QUOTE (Augmentation @ Page 88)
Cellular Repair: This specialized regenerative treatment repairs permanent cellular damage caused by neurotoxins or radiation, eradicates resulting disabilities, restores attribute loss due to disease or severe physical trauma, and even heals Essence loss inflicted by a critter with the Energy Drain or Essence Drain powers (see p. 288, SR4, and p. 99, Street Magic). It will not fix hereditary problems or disabilities integral to the subject’s own genetic expression.


For 15,000 Yen a Week.
LurkerOutThere
Regarding the nutrition spell and ghouls and other infected I alswaysa recommend people not sell the fluff short, if the dietary requirements were easy to get around it would be mentioned int he actual material or that of the spell itself.

Further Acient Enemy of Life mage > Street Mage Magic
Ramaloke
I see your point, but even the Sustained Nutrition spell isn't a very viable method to alleviate the world's infected population of their needs. It'd be far to expensive and taxing on the relatively small number of magicians out there. After all, anybody can become infected, not anybody can become a magician.

On the flip side this sells the fluff of the Nutrition spell short, either way you are gimping something. After all, the spell gives you a meal.

Regardless, the other options I've presented are rather good, with the renfield engine being easiest to do and the second option being less amoral but more expensive in the long run.
LurkerOutThere
Eh, again I think if this spell was intended to, or capable of, fullfilling magical dietary requirements it would have specifically said so. If you allow otherwise then it's just a matter of someone researching an area affect version of this spell.
Neraph
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Dec 11 2010, 02:13 PM) *
I really don't think it even words for the blood, either, at least in terms of the minimal 'must eat/drink X once a month' requirement. But, the GM might allow it. The spell itself is written as incredibly weak—"a few hours"—but you can keep casting it, I guess.

The reason I don't think it works is because the Dietary Requirement Weakness isn't a 'food' thing. It's more like a vitamin, perhaps: something that the critter must have at a certain interval. "Without the specified requirement in its diet, the critter eventually sickens and dies."

QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Dec 11 2010, 02:01 PM) *
You can eat anything you want (subject to individual restrictions), but Nutrition doesn't satisfy dietary requirement Weaknesses. Sorry. smile.gif Neither does it count for Essence Drain, which isn't a dietary requirement to begin with. Essence Drain Infected don't drain Essence because it's food. They do it because they have the Essence Loss Weakness.

Nutrition *could* help, say, a Ghoul (limited diet) avoid some of their need, but I think you're right that it's way more trouble than just getting raw meat. smile.gif

As someone mentioned above, Nourishment allows you to completely survive off of mana. That means the spell automagically feeds whatever your body needs to survive with mana, keeping you alive and well. It also makes no mention whatsoever about it causing malnutrition - the spell's name even hints at that.

It should also be noted that while the spell only lasts for a few hours most people get hungry after a meal in about 2-3 hours.
Doc Chase
So publish a paper on it and take the few million nuyen bequeathment in Dunk's will for discovering a substitute for ghoul chow?

A lot about this spell doesn't sit right with me. nyahnyah.gif
Neraph
I'm not denying that. Simply that, by the Rules As Written for this game, it is legitamate, whether or not it makes sense. If you haven't noticed by now, I argue the point of RAW far mor than RAI.
Yerameyahu
Neraph, I think you'll find that I didn't say the Paranormal Weakness 'Dietary Requirement' was malnutrition at all. RAW, the spell doesn't say it satisfies that extraordinary requirement.

It obviously can never give Essence for the Essence Drain 'diet'; that part is rock solid.
Neraph
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Dec 13 2010, 11:51 AM) *
Neraph, I think you'll find that I didn't say the Paranormal Weakness 'Dietary Requirement' was malnutrition at all. RAW, the spell doesn't say it satisfies that extraordinary requirement.

It obviously can never give Essence for the Essence Drain 'diet'; that part is rock solid.

True on both points, but I was mentioning that someone else said something about malnutrition. Sorry for not making that more clear.

Also, RAW it does make itself clear. The spell says that it nourishes the body off of pure mana, so whatever your body may need to survive the spell provides. Just because it does not specifically state that allowance does not mean it cannot be logically reached.

Maybe the magi-scientists of the 2072's are so focused on creating some sort of object for the ghoulies and others to consume that they simply missed the obvious? It's happened that way countless times in the past (although notably with things other than cannabalism).
Yerameyahu
I guess that's one way of looking at it. smile.gif I tend to assume that the players are weaker and stupider than the whole setting, but maybe that's just me. biggrin.gif Except maybe for bandersnatchii, the dietary requirement isn't really a big deal anyway. I could see letting a player 'abuse' this, because it doesn't really alter the game balance.
Ramaloke
QUOTE (Neraph @ Dec 13 2010, 09:17 PM) *
True on both points, but I was mentioning that someone else said something about malnutrition. Sorry for not making that more clear.

Also, RAW it does make itself clear. The spell says that it nourishes the body off of pure mana, so whatever your body may need to survive the spell provides. Just because it does not specifically state that allowance does not mean it cannot be logically reached.

Maybe the magi-scientists of the 2072's are so focused on creating some sort of object for the ghoulies and others to consume that they simply missed the obvious? It's happened that way countless times in the past (although notably with things other than cannabalism).


Or maybe the spell is good for the use of one character but impossible to "industrialize and distribute" on a reasonable scale to make it actually worth while. I mean, how many magicians are there in the world compared to how easy it is to become infected. Theres going to be a huge disparity there, even if every magician dedicated his life to feeding the infected via this method they'd all drop dead of drain.
Yerameyahu
The scale involved *is* crazy, but is there actually a drain issue? You can basically cast this at Force 1 (or Force-100%-safe, if higher) every 3 seconds, right? Presumably, you could bind a ton of Spirits of Man to cast it all the time for you, if you could finagle the proper wording for the long-term binding.

The real problem (if we say it works for 'special' requirements) is the rules-mandated addiction, I assume.
Neraph
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Dec 13 2010, 03:04 PM) *
The real problem (if we say it works for 'special' requirements) is the rules-mandated addiction, I assume.

Running the risk of becoming addicted is a far throw away from having a rules-mandated addiction. It's quite easy to get enough dice to buy 4 successes on both a mental and physical Addiction Test.
Yerameyahu
The risk is mandated, and that is what I referred to. nyahnyah.gif Unless you're going to argue that being shot in the face doesn't have 'the problem of rules-mandated wounding' because you could soak it?
Neraph
Eh, the way you stated it seemed that there was a mandatory addiction, much like betel.
Yerameyahu
I consider Betel to be a mandatory free 5 BP and Perception bonus. biggrin.gif
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Dumpshock Forums © 2001-2012