If you're hanging out at DS, you're likely a big fan of at least the world that is portrayed in whatever is your favorite version of SR. I include myself in that number.

What I'm finding is that the rules are what's killing me. And so I wonder - would there be interest in playing a game set in the same SR universe we know from SR4, but doing so with a system that might be better equipped to handle the issues therein? I'm thinking Hero, but I'm also a fan of GURPS and could be convinced to try either way.

What do you say? I'm open to constructive criticism, as well as simple driveby posts that link to others who have tried similar things...

I'm always interested in these sort of experiments. I've tried running SR-like games in other systems a few times in college, but I never had a lot of luck. One short-lived but fun game used BESM (an anime role-playing game that tries to be universal like GURPS is), but it required a lot of self-control on the part of both the GM and the players to keep options limited to those that exist in SR, or close facsimiles. I don't know much about Hero, but if you went with GURPS, you'd certainly have to keep an eye on these sort of things. Every time I have played GURPS, the GM had to be very careful about not opening up every option just because the rules allowed it, or things got out of hand (and often off-genre) quickly.

You would also probably want to select a system that had a magic system that could be compared to SRs, in order to keep that aspect of the setting. Cybernetics, hacking, etc you can probably find in just about any futuristic RPG.

I admit I have violent reactions to both Hero and Gurps.. and not in a good way.

But, I do love the shadowrun setting, even if the rules make me cry.

Both systems are very heavily mathy, I will admit. I think that 4th edition GURPS and 6th edition Hero have done a bit to get away from being a small-scale optimizer's paradise - especially Hero, with the elimination of figured characteristics. I had a friend in high school who was a bigger math geek than I am find every possible sweet spot the game had to offer back when it was still called Champions.

I'm afraid I don't know any other generic systems, but I'd be open to suggestions...

I find the SR rules work pretty well (most of the time).
It's just not the same, if SR is played without its rules.

HERO is cool, too. But you really need folks who know the system well, and who can limit themselves.


Some nice, simple generic systems:

- Savage Worlds
- Cortex System

If you like HERO, you might also like Mutants & Masterminds.

Bye
Thanee

I've enjoyed GURPS games I have played, but, like I said, I think they tend to go crazy when there aren't limitations. My friend who used to GM them for us would start telling us stories about past games he played in that sounded pretty good - then, all of a sudden, he's talking about cyborg werewolves running along the top of a train in the underworld being chased by mecha-pilots and I quickly lost him. I'm sure the campaign made some sense, but I imagine a lot of those games end up being a big mish-mash of genres.

For SR, that's probably a plus, since you'll want a system that can handle the sci-fi stuff as well as the fantasy stuff - but you probably don't want cyborg werewolves, for example.

Yeah, I'm not aware of any games that have the same "gotta balance cyberware with magic - let's throw in an essence stat..." setup, so you could find yourself with characters who are cybered and still mages. It'd be easy to set it up so you can't in Hero system, but it would be an artificial (not part of the rule set) method of doing so.

The thing I love about Hero for handling the Matrix stuff is that they recommend that you have your characters model it with "Extradimensional Travel" - that is, they essentially leave the earth entirely to go into cyberspace, and once there interact with things as though they were themselves. Programs are built just like spells, with a heavy limitation that they only work in cyberspace. I admit, that intrigues me.

Honestly, with all the crap they put in the Runner's Companion about SURGE and changelings and the like- I'm pretty sure you can have a cyberwerewolf in SR by RAW...

with surge, I guess you could have a cybered-up guy who LOOKS like a werewolf, sure. But it'd be a different thing. Your example of cybered up mages is probably a better one - like you said, most systems won't make you trade off between the two very much.

The grass isn't always as green as it seems on the other side of the fence.


The time you spend trying to adapt SR concepts over to a new system could be better-spent thinking-up good house-rules that make the existing system more fun for your particular group. Or, even better, writing solid, engaging plotlines, story hooks, and NPC characterizations for your players to interact with.

Designing rules is DAMNED HARD. It's why SR rules have flaws. If you try converting things, you'll simply end-up with a whole different set of problems. Right now, we know most of what what we don't like with SR's rules.

Also, from what I remember of GURPS, you could do the same thing with your example of the matrix being an extradimensional place, if you modeled hacking with powers rather than with skills and equipment (although there are whole books on other ways to handle it.

You could something similar with cybernetics if you wanted it to be a tradeoff with magic. If instead of spending money on a cyberarm to be stronger, you just bought a higher strength (or a strength power, or attack, or whatever) with a limitation saying it was cybernetic in nature... you'd be BP limited between buying spells and buying augmentations... but you could still mix and match probably more than in SR.

Better the devil you know than the devil you don't know?

Better the devil that we know, and have lengthy forum post details various facts about said devil. Many with valid suggestions on improving that devil. It's the devil that HAS been really fun to play with over the last 20 or so years, even if we get slightly burned by some of the hotter parts. It's the devil that many of our gaming friends also know and enjoy. It's the devil that's has errata published regularly, even if we still get burned by said errata.


To the OP - Don't let me rain on your parade too much. If you really do want to re-invent the wheel, go for it. After all, sometimes you do have to throw everything out and start clean to fix some problems. Just think, some day there might be a new Dumpshock forum dedicated to complaining about your new system.

I might benefit from a trip through the forums, looking to compile a comprehensive list of "this rule is broken" and more importantly "this thing that happens on nearly every run? There are no rules for it whatsoever..."

It would certainly be a good step, either way, to come up with a list of rules you think are bad in SR4. Then, bounce them off of people, and they can probably point you to some clarifications, errata, or common house rules... and if not, and you're still interested in a new system, you at least have a list of things you're looking for in a new system - which might suggest one over another.

I would say the SR4 rules are pretty good with the exception of a few things....vehicle chase rules for instance...lol. But I would say, the key things, social and combat are pretty solid. It's probably easier to find out which rule groups suck and revise the than to tailor a different rule set for SR.

A bunch of issues that I've found in searching and reading are easily fixed, and some are even official "optional rules" in the books themselves.

Things like a Logic 1 hacker being as good as any other hacker because things are based on program + skill and Logic never enters into it. And that, as written, it's disturbingly easy to pass HMHVV III (Ghouls) and almost impossible to avoid being infected if you are exposed. I'm sure I'll find others, but a few judicious house rules ought to take care of that issue.

I like doing hacking as logic+skill max hits = program rating

Yeah, that's the "official optional" rule, and I like it well enough to implement it in the future. It's reminiscent of the way magic works, and makes it less likely for everyone to be Neo...

Savage worlds is very cheap, has an excellent game system and has rules for cyberware and for magic.
Fudge is the lightest system you could want, and I have used it to run shadowrun for years. It works well, but I think savage worlds is better.
Torg has source books for cyberware, and magic, and is an exciting game system to play. I also have used it to run shadowrun with some fairly major mods.
Transhuman space (gurps) with a little bit of magic covers most of what you want.

Of all the above I would seriously look at savage worlds.


I mostly agree with the above, although I would also tweak the hacking rules.

There's a thread on house rules over in the shadowrun forum: Here

Some may spark your interest! Spot any good ones and we could talk about bringing them in to Emerging

A