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V-Origin
say a team of shadowrunners are trapped in a house surrounded by Lone Star/KE police personnel..

if they call DocWagon/Crashcart for help, do DocWagon/Crashcart have the legal juice to open fire on Lone Star/KE and pull the runners out of danger?

i know that Lone Star or KE are the designated police for Seattle.. but in the end they are just private security companies.. if it goes to court it would be a legal case of a private company against another private company and not the city against a private company ... right?

even though one private company is working for the interests of the city...
Stahlseele
This depends, as far as i understood, only on the status of the building.
If it's exterritorial, then they won't do so much as ask nicely if they may retrieve one of their customers.
If it's NOT exterritorial? They have SWAT teams with Mages and people close to cyberzombie-status for a reason.
What Corp. CARES about authorization in the world of shadowrun? If you have the man/financial power, you do what you want.
jaellot
I know in regards to a team on corp grounds they don't go in. I would personally say they will not open fire on a LS/KE team. Given that the setting is in a house I could see one of two ways this goes down-

1- DW/CC gets there first. Patch up, haul 'em out. They get a call from LS/KE that their clients are wanted for "Blah", what ever it was that had them running to said house. DW/CC hands them over, having performed their contract.

2- LS/KE gets there first. DW/CC inform LS/KE that they have clients in there, so LS/KE would allow them to patch up who ever needed such inside, before arresting them.

DW/CC are not "Get Out Of Jail Free" cards, alas. They will make it so you CAN go to jail, as opposed of going into your choice of take-out container (Box, baggie, sponge, dustbuster...).
Stahlseele
You are PAYING them to get you out of WHEREEVER and to get you into their own hospital and to fix you up.
AFTERWARDS, you face the simple problem, that their hospitals ain't exterritorial either, so the police can and will come in and get you, when you're not close enough to die anymore.
LurkerOutThere
When LS/KE/whoever is acting as the police they effectively have legal authority on the city streets of most bergs, other corporate forces generally won't fire upon them and vice versa because their legal relationship is established. For all intents and purposes LS/KE are the police, docwagon firing on the police to extract wanted fugitives would be breaking the law. Docwagon won't break the law on your behalf.

As others have stated there is a chance that if your shot in a conflict with police docwagon might come and pluck you out and then LS/KE will just attempt to arrest you when your released by docwagon. Theoreticly Docwagon will hand you over nice and tidy, but that is where bribes and high loyalty contacts come in.
Ascalaphus
DocWagon wouldn't fire on police in that police force's jurisdiction, and LS/KE is acting as police, so no, they can't extract you from predicaments on UCAS soil.

However, DocWagon is an AA corporation, so their hospitals can (and probably will) be extraterritorial ground. Once you're in the hospital, LS/KE can only file for extradition.

So if you're on UCAS soil, LS/KE wants to arrest you, and you're wounded, they won't let DW get to you until DW promises to extradite after treatment, or to transport you to a UCAS hospital.

I'm not sure if ambulances are covered by extraterritoriality; they might be. You might be safe as soon as you're in the ambulance, but check with your GM on that before taking the gamble.
Stahlseele
Ahem, Doc-Waggon itself isn't an AA Corp, if i ain't misremembering.
They BELONG to an AA Corp.
Ascalaphus
I'm having trouble finding a direct mention of DocWagon as an AA corp, but AFAIK they are independent. Also:

QUOTE (Augmentation, p. 11)
>DocWagon and its counterparts are inordinately popular among
runners for a reason: their clinics maintain extraterritorial status,
and a patient’s location and records are generally confidential. You
should check your contract, though—in many jurisdictions, DocWagon
policy is to acknowledge extradition requests from Lone Star and
other corporate security institutions following treatment.
> Butch

> Yeah, but as I recently found out, they’ve been known to ignore
requests if your contract is Platinum or better.
> Hard Exit


And you can only have extraterritoriality if you're at least AA or belong to an AA+.

Edit: I checked SR4, SR4A, Arsenal, Augmentation, Corporate Guide, Runner's Companion and Unwired. Surprisingly few mentions of DocWagon at all really.
EKBT81
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jan 8 2011, 10:19 PM) *
Ahem, Doc-Waggon itself isn't an AA Corp, if i ain't misremembering.
They BELONG to an AA Corp.


AFAIK DocWagon is an AA in it's own right. At least it was in SR3. I'm not 100% up to speed on 4th ed.
Yerameyahu
… What's the distinction there, anyway? Either way, "their clinics maintain extraterritorial status".
Ascalaphus
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jan 8 2011, 10:55 PM) *
… What's the distinction there, anyway? Either way, "their clinics maintain extraterritorial status".


One of the selling points of DocWagon for runners is that it doesn't belong to another corp, which can be important.
Yerameyahu
Ah, makes sense. I've never actually seen a runner with DocWagon.
Ascalaphus
It's not really all that useful in SR4, with the generous First Aid rules. Also, since DW can't really help you against police or on corporate property, they're only useful for mundane accidents and perhaps when you're being bothered by gangers. Even so, you'd need to buy time for DW to get to you.
Brazilian_Shinobi
QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Jan 8 2011, 05:18 PM) *
I'm not sure if ambulances are covered by extraterritoriality; they might be. You might be safe as soon as you're in the ambulance, but check with your GM on that before taking the gamble.


Given the fact that extraterritoriality is basically that a AA+ corp is considered a nation in its own right. An ambulance clearly stamped as belonging to Doc Wagon would be considered the same as a diplomatic vehicle, wouldn't it?
Mäx
Yes DocWagon is an independent corporation, the organization was founded in Atlanta in 2037, in 2042 it franshiced it operation to rest of UCAS(except Seattle) and in 2043 it went international.
That's from their history in Neo-Anarchist Guide to Real Life(damm writing even a short amount of info like that out of an old book, really makes me appreciate the copy-pastable pdf versions of the newer books"
Ascalaphus
QUOTE (Brazilian_Shinobi @ Jan 8 2011, 11:10 PM) *
Given the fact that extraterritoriality is basically that a AA+ corp is considered a nation in its own right. An ambulance clearly stamped as belonging to Doc Wagon would be considered the same as a diplomatic vehicle, wouldn't it?


Possibly. But there's usually some sort of counter to that - like disallowing those vehicles to enter certain areas. Diplomatic immunity does have limits; senior diplomats tend to have much more immunity than ancillary staff for example. Most likely LS/KE can declare an area a Crime Scene which DW is only allowed to enter if they waive that immunity.


QUOTE (Mäx @ Jan 8 2011, 11:16 PM) *
Yes DocWagon is an independent corporation, the organization was founded in Atlanta in 2037, in 2042 it franshiced it operation to rest of UCAS(except Seattle) and in 2043 it went international.
That's from their history in Neo-Anarchist Guide to Real Life(damm writing even a short amount of info like that out of an old book, really makes me appreciate the copy-pastable pdf versions of the newer books"


Yes, and being able to search through them with Ctrl-F!
hermit
QUOTE
Are DocWagon and CrashCart authorized to open fire on Lone Star/KE?

No.

They're not going to. They're not a get-out-of-shit card. Even if they bail you out of a firefight with gangbangers, they will charge you for any cost. Neo-Anarchist's Guide to Real Life (an old sourcebiook) is very clear and informative there.
Brazilian_Shinobi
QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Jan 8 2011, 06:30 PM) *
Possibly. But there's usually some sort of counter to that - like disallowing those vehicles to enter certain areas. Diplomatic immunity does have limits; senior diplomats tend to have much more immunity than ancillary staff for example. Most likely LS/KE can declare an area a Crime Scene which DW is only allowed to enter if they waive that immunity.


I agree with you on that, but what I mean is: if DW get you first and is driving you to one of their facilities, there is a chance you might escape with the right contacts/bribes. I mean, they are bound by contract to arrive in less than ten minutes or they won't charge extra and take you safely and alive to one of their hospitals for treatment. After that you are on your own. In this case, LS/KE would probably ask for extradiction and even ask to send officers to guarantee the prisoner won't escape.

edit: grammar correction
Ascalaphus
QUOTE (Brazilian_Shinobi @ Jan 9 2011, 12:42 AM) *
I agree with you on that, but what I mean is: if DW get you first and is driving you to one of their facilities, there is a chance you might escape with the right contacts/bribes. I mean, they are bound by contract to arrive in less than ten minutes or they won't charge extra and take you safely and alive to one of their hospitals for treatment. After that you are on yourself. In this case, LS/KE would probably ask for extradiction and even ask to send officers to guarantee the prisoner won't escape.


Yes, it seems DW does have some uses for runners, as a way to evade arrest. Just make sure to be in the ambulance before LS/KE gets its act together, and to be out of the hospital before the extradition paperwork clears (which can take a looong time, if your DW contract is really good.)
Megu
QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Jan 8 2011, 04:08 PM) *
It's not really all that useful in SR4, with the generous First Aid rules. Also, since DW can't really help you against police or on corporate property, they're only useful for mundane accidents and perhaps when you're being bothered by gangers. Even so, you'd need to buy time for DW to get to you.


I've noticed that. With how fast you bleed out at negative health, you'll either be dead or healed one way or another before they get there. So I've been sort of houseruling that players with a DW or similar contract can spend an edge point while they're under to stabilize until they get there. That's generous, I know, but I'm desperately trying to compensate for the fact that my players are, as I've put it before, pants on head retarded.

My guess is that, as far as non-megacorporate property, they would not open fire on police unless fired upon first, in which case it would become a big legal clusterfuck. If the police are there with their guns out DocWagon's unlikely to save you, but once you're in the ambulance, extraterritorial property baby.
Ascalaphus
QUOTE (Megu @ Jan 9 2011, 12:58 AM) *
I've noticed that. With how fast you bleed out at negative health, you'll either be dead or healed one way or another before they get there. So I've been sort of houseruling that players with a DW or similar contract can spend an edge point while they're under to stabilize until they get there. That's generous, I know, but I'm desperately trying to compensate for the fact that my players are, as I've put it before, pants on head retarded.


That's an interesting idea actually, especially if a character is shot down while on his own.

I think another use of DW is as a kind of extraction team. Suppose a gang is bothering you; if you can trigger your DW bracelet and survive for 10 minutes, DW will pull you out.
InfinityzeN
More like 4 minutes. You don't set a time for greatly reduced prices unless your average time is half of that or less.
Ascalaphus
QUOTE (InfinityzeN @ Jan 9 2011, 01:31 AM) *
More like 4 minutes. You don't set a time for greatly reduced prices unless your average time is half of that or less.


Yeah, but that's a bit of a gamble then.
Yerameyahu
DW isn't thrilled if you use them like that, either. I mean, they don't care, but you'll pay. smile.gif
Brazilian_Shinobi
QUOTE (Megu @ Jan 8 2011, 07:58 PM) *
I've noticed that. With how fast you bleed out at negative health, you'll either be dead or healed one way or another before they get there. So I've been sort of houseruling that players with a DW or similar contract can spend an edge point while they're under to stabilize until they get there. That's generous, I know, but I'm desperately trying to compensate for the fact that my players are, as I've put it before, pants on head retarded.


When you said that I went to check the tweaking the rules sidebar in Augmentation to see any suggestion on this part is slower natural healing.

Reading the 'Using First Aid' section on SR4A mentions that the limit of the healing is you first aid skill rating.
Then, when you read medkit says that if you don't have the skill, you may use it as limit. Which means that there is no reason to learn First Aid in the first place...

I get the reason for easier healings, so a player who gets shot won't be out of the game, but I think that fights are dangerous and random and knowing that getting up is harder would prevent people entering places with guns blazing in the first place. Then, you could add rules like the ones found in Tweaking the Rules for a more pink mowhak feel...
Ascalaphus
True, you wouldn't really want to make DW dislike you. I mean, you might need their actual goodwill someday, instead of just what the SLA specifies.

I'll have to look into those alternative healing rules.
kzt
Appropriate large tips to DW employees can make up for your BS calls.
Megu
QUOTE (kzt @ Jan 8 2011, 07:03 PM) *
Appropriate large tips to DW employees can make up for your BS calls.


I don't know, if your Coyote shaman has called them one too many times in the middle of a three AM peyote trip asking about Battletoads...
V-Origin
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jan 9 2011, 05:17 AM) *
This depends, as far as i understood, only on the status of the building.
If it's exterritorial, then they won't do so much as ask nicely if they may retrieve one of their customers.
If it's NOT exterritorial? They have SWAT teams with Mages and people close to cyberzombie-status for a reason.
What Corp. CARES about authorization in the world of shadowrun? If you have the man/financial power, you do what you want.


It is a public non extraterritorial building..

As far as I know, DocWagon/Crashcart do not have legal authority to enter extraterritorial grounds..

However, in a public setting, what I wanna know is do DocWagon/Crashcart have the legal authority to fire on Lone Star/KE to save runners' asses? Isn't that against the law?
V-Origin
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jan 9 2011, 05:38 AM) *
You are PAYING them to get you out of WHEREEVER and to get you into their own hospital and to fix you up.
AFTERWARDS, you face the simple problem, that their hospitals ain't exterritorial either, so the police can and will come in and get you, when you're not close enough to die anymore.


You are right in this regard. Docwagon/KE are being paid to get their clients out of a hotspot and transport them to a safe location.

And under the scenario, the hospital which the runners are being transported to are extraterritorial..
Yerameyahu
It's definitely not "WHEREVER", and it never has been, AFAIK.
V-Origin
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jan 9 2011, 09:38 AM) *
DW isn't thrilled if you use them like that, either. I mean, they don't care, but you'll pay. smile.gif


From what I know Docwagon/Crashcart are known to slap all type of fees on their clients.. including a "law enforcement refugee" fee... that is how they earn their revenues.. the question is .. how far are DocWagaon/Crashcart allowed to go to pull their clients out of the hot soup and earn their revenues in the process..
Yerameyahu
Honestly, I assume they earn most of their money by collecting premiums, just like insurance companies do. But yes, they'll certainly charge you for anything extra.

I think that question's been answered and re-answered. smile.gif They'll go anywhere except out of the 'country', and won't fight the duly-appointed police.
LurkerOutThere
Personally all response forces in my games, Docwagon included, get there in rounds not minuetes. It's not "realistic" but neither is combat time.
V-Origin
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jan 9 2011, 12:43 PM) *
Honestly, I assume they earn most of their money by collecting premiums, just like insurance companies do. But yes, they'll certainly charge you for anything extra.

I think that question's been answered and re-answered. smile.gif They'll go anywhere except out of the 'country', and won't fight the duly-appointed police.


But if DocWagaon/Crashcart refuse to get you out of any dilemma, then they are committing a breach of contract and are subjected to penalties, including compensations to clients.

That is a handy way to grab some easy nuyen.
Yerameyahu
Nope. It's already *in* the contract. Duh. biggrin.gif Never forget that the world is smarter than your runner… and has more lawyers.
Vermithrax
For the ways this usually plays out check "[7325] Missions p38". There's alot of good info on how Docwagon handles situations like this. The mission itself is one that my group fondly remembers even years later.
For those without access it basically stats that Docwagon has jurasdiction when it comes to those who have a contract and are wounded. The "police" have to extradite them from Docwagon. One of the few thing Docwagon wont do is break extraterritorality. They usually have contracts and other agreements with various corps on how these tricky legal matters are handled and its different per company/entity/contract/ even country.
CanRay
The big question is, does LS/KE want to PISS OFF Doc Wagon by firing upon them? After all, Lone Star Officers are also covered by Doc Wagon, and I bet Knight Errant has contracts with them as well (It could be CrashCart, but I doubt they'd be happy having people in Evo Jurisdiction.). I've started having Police equipped with Biomonitors (Either cybernetic or built into their uniforms) that broadcasts a 911 to Doc Wagon and their precinct house if their vitals go bad. Just another reason to not shoot to kill the Po-Po. Knock 'em out, and they'll even get into trouble for sleeping on the job!

Also, I've had it pointed out to me that it's a lot easier to escape from a hospital than it is from a prison cell. nyahnyah.gif

Doc Wagon's contracts allow them to defend themselves and their clients from any and all perpetrators. If someone shoots at them, they deserve whatever they get, and have all the legal documentation and writs of "Mother May I" from the Countries they work in (Which don't amount to much) and the Corporate Court (Which amounts to a hell of a lot!). Don't forget that they have a lot of high-ranking corporate clients, and it's in their best interests to ensure that they get as much support as possible!

As for 'Runners not having a Doc Wagon contract, it's a damned good idea to have one with a good SIN to go along with it. After all, public hospitals (Which have to obey the laws of the land) are required to report any and all GSWs. Doc Wagon, I'd rule not, unless there was mitigating circumstances. (Like it was a RFID bullet in their hoop screaming "I WAS SHOT BY THE PO-LICE! CALL THE COPS! I AM NOW PROPERTY OF BUBBA THE LOVE TROLL!"). Save that, they'd patch you up, give you a sucker, and tell you not to go getting shot again as it voids the warranty of your cybernetics. Of course, that depends on the contacts they have signed with the city in question, their relationship with the local law enforcement community, corporate politics, and what level of service you have with them. (As Jon "Money" Johnson says: "Check *ALL* of the electives! It's worth it!").

Sure, you could go to a Shadow Clinic, but, seriously, have you *SEEN* those places? I swear, one guy's "Disinfectant" came out of the same bottle he drank from to "Steady his hands"!
Vermithrax
CanRay says it so much better grinbig.gif
CanRay
What it all comes down to when you're in Doc Wagon's holdings and the Law Officers want you is politics. You're in a different country as far as the law is concerned.

OK, yes, Doc Wagon has Extradition Treaties with various places, I'll admit that. But you know what that means? Bureaucracy! Welcome to the wonderful world of forms and paperwork and writs and requests and wining and dining diplomats/representatives and all those other fun things that involve embassies!

Also, it's been confirmed quite well that Law Enforcement Corporations only allot a certain amount of time to a given criminal. If it takes more time than it would be profitable to get you, congrats, you're cut loose! Now, that doesn't mean spit on a hot plate if you've killed a cop (They tend to not like that very much and are willing to work "Off The Books" to make sure you are going to decorate the office as a new rug!), but if all you're nailed for is some penny-ante, non-violent, non-newsworthy stuff, well... It'll probably be not worth their time to finish all the paperwork and there you go.

Of course, you keep committing crimes, become something that gets headlines and increases your value for time spent in prison, then you become worth that time and get handed over.

I used to be a cog in the machine a few years ago, in the health care sector of Canada no less. I know quite a bit about how things work just when it comes to getting people their medication! Forget involving different companies, departments, divisions... And heaven help you if you're dealing with someone that has pull!
Yerameyahu
… What on earth could a runner do that's "penny-ante, non-violent, non-newsworthy stuff"? biggrin.gif Doing it wrong, whatever the answer.
CanRay
Hey, not every Shadowrun is a major event.

Sometimes your Ninja Mechanics are just breaking into garages to break the car's engine in such a way that it looks like their mechanic is fixing to get repeat business. Certainly not something that will get on the "Whatever O'Clock News". Even on a slow news day.

Sometimes you got to take the crap jobs just to make the Nutrasoy payments that month. Who knows, if you find a discarded credstick on the ground, you might even be able to afford FLAVORING!
toturi
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jan 9 2011, 11:50 AM) *
Nope. It's already *in* the contract. Duh. biggrin.gif Never forget that the world is smarter than your runner… and has more lawyers.

Or your runner can be smarter than most of the world and is/has a better lawyer.
Yerameyahu
Nope. smile.gif
CanRay
Advantage of Corporations: Army of Lawyers.

Advantage of Shadowrunners: They don't give a damn about laws to begin with, and Lawyers make GREAT target practice.
kzt
QUOTE (pattyhulez @ Jan 8 2011, 08:30 PM) *
However, in a public setting, what I wanna know is do DocWagon/Crashcart have the legal authority to fire on Lone Star/KE to save runners' asses? Isn't that against the law?

No. If you are an extraterritorial organization you are a separate country. What is the three letter word that starts with w that describes what happens when the armed troops of one country shoot at another? It's like asking if the US marines at the embassy will shoot up the MVD trying to arrest you in Moscow to save your ass. And Lone Star WILL shoot back. Lone Star has much bigger guns too.

Give me three reasons why Doc Wagon should go to war with Lone Star over your runners.
CanRay
QUOTE (kzt @ Jan 9 2011, 03:34 AM) *
Give me three reasons why Doc Wagon should go to war with Lone Star over your runners.

1. It's the corporate mandate to "Provide medical service to clients in high-risk situations."
2. They are contractually obligated to do that very thing.
3. As far as the Paramedics know, those "Shadowrunners" are just innocent civilians that were caught in the crossfire of Lone Star Cowboys and actual criminals. It's not their job to judge: Just insert, patch up and exfil. The job of dealing with legal issues such as who was firing at what is for the suits to deal with.

And, as I've pointed out earlier, Lone Star is not likely to be shooting at Doc Wagon. They provide their health care. And I bet Paramedics have a similar view of "EMS Killers" as Police do to "Cop Killers". If Officer Paddy caps Paramedic Kenny (THAT BASTARD!), well, that's one less reason for Doc Wagon (Who is it's own COUNTRY!) to work with Lone Star when dealing with extradition of criminals.

Paperwork, it's such an easy thing to... Lose. Oh, I'm sorry, were those e-mails for those people? They must have been caught by our Spam Filters.
Doc Chase
QUOTE (CanRay @ Jan 9 2011, 07:51 AM) *
Paperwork, it's such an easy thing to... Lose. Oh, I'm sorry, were those e-mails for those people? They must have been caught by our Spam Filters.

I've heard some whoppers, and this one is up there.

Contracts go both ways. It means both parties have an agreement to abide by. It means that KE/LS isn't going to shoot at DocWagon if they're in the area to make a high-risk save, but at the same time DocWagon's job is done when the person in question is being cared for. KE/LS can roll in any time and pick them up once they're well, and since they all have contracts one way or another they're going to turn your dumb ass over to wash their hands of the liability.

Criminals don't get quality health care.
CanRay
True, but you have to prove that those people are SUSPECTED criminals. Evidence that Doc Wagon recognizes as legitimate and so on.

If we're talking about Basic Level customers with shoddy SINs with witnesses and evidence galore that they blew up an orphanage and shot up a bus full of Nuns, well, they'll be in custody before the anesthesia wears off.

If the evidence is murky, the crimes minor and apparently trumped up, and the SINs tight with a higher class of service, then things start getting political indeed. Doc Wagon has to protect their customers, after all. Especially the ones that pay out the nose for the high-end service.

I'm not saying this is going to happen in EVERY case, but it can, and most likely does, happen.

Politics politics politics. It's all around, man. And it bloody well sucks.

Which is one of the weapons that Shadowrunners are supposed to take advantage of.

PS: I can certainly confirm that criminals don't get quality health care. frown.gif Not from personal experience, but I can still confirm it without a shadow of a doubt.
LurkerOutThere
QUOTE (CanRay @ Jan 9 2011, 02:08 AM) *
True, but you have to prove that those people are SUSPECTED criminals. Evidence that Doc Wagon recognizes as legitimate and so on.

If we're talking about Basic Level customers with shoddy SINs with witnesses and evidence galore that they blew up an orphanage and shot up a bus full of Nuns, well, they'll be in custody before the anesthesia wears off.

If the evidence is murky, the crimes minor and apparently trumped up, and the SINs tight with a higher class of service, then things start getting political indeed. Doc Wagon has to protect their customers, after all. Especially the ones that pay out the nose for the high-end service.


No they don't, docwagon provides lifesaving care and extraction from immediate danger, that's it. They are neither equiped, nor likely interested in protecting their clients from the police, that is the business of said clients lawyer. Afterall, you pay in advance.

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