If you take the PP instead of the Metamagic (It is optional), then yes, you get 1pp worth of abilities...

Ok then, what would you take with 2PP to spend on a Face? I was thinking Kinesics and maybe Spell Resistance, out of the core book, and maybe Analytics, Blind Fighting, Commanding Voice, Cool Resolve, and perhaps Eidetic Sense Memory. I'm not sure though, so any thoughts?

Drug abuse, extra surgery, things like that I can understand - things that permanently reduce Magic, the kind that can burnout a mage or lock a shapeshifter in animal form. But something temporary like background count (their own or an exterior one) ? AFAIK this would not disrupt an Inhabitation spirit having achieved an Hybrid or Flesh Form merge, and that is IMHO the closest equivalent to what a Cyberzombie is, the forcible re-merging of spirit and body.

This shows that those things were never really intended to be player's characters and the rules covering them are sketchy to say the least

Its one of those "we can't be bothered to publish errata" erratas for RC, due to the Karma cost changes in SR4A.

Well, we've not got SR4A, just SR4, so we'll be playing as is I think.

Apart from the cosmetic surgery, is there any way to increase my Charisma? And I do mean an actual increase, rather than bonus dice (i.e. Tailored Pheromones).

So I'm thinking of moving some points around - I'm not liking that 3 Strength. I know it'll get boosted with 'wares, but how am I supposed to be a Cyborg-Ninja in addition to being a face, with a (natural) strength of 3?

Then again, how important is Strength? I know fighting unarmed will come up (my GM has flat out told me there will be bare-knuckle boxing, and I'm expected to make a showing for myself) and I'll be using blades (be they spurs or swords) and clubs (that is, pistols) in melee anyhow, so should my strength be higher?

With a lot of 'ware... If you go for the cyberlimb route, naturel strength will be largely irrelevant. Even if you don't , depending on what legality class you're allowed it's failry easy to pump it up to 7 which would me more than enough - most mele damage is based on halved strength, that means a 2 points difference nets a meager 1 damage point. Adding some bone lacing or bone densification can help making up the difference and will also boost resilience.

If you really feel a need for some more strength, a suprathyroïd is worth considering. A cyberzombie is enough of an high-maintenance item that eventual side effects won't be much of an issue - especially since if I remember right the side effects have diminished, if not dissapeared, from their SR3 declination. It will also improve your speed.

The only cyberlimbs I'm planning on are lower legs, so natural strength remains an issue. I'll definitely be getting bone lacing and/or bone densification though. How do they interact? Is there any point in getting both?

I'm pretty sure the Suprathyroid's only downside is an increase to living costs. I'll have to check it out.

WHY only Lower Legs? O.o

Bone density and bone lacing can not be combined.

The higher Bonus from both counts, they do not stack.
You can get both. So if one gives +1 damage and the other gives +2 damage, you get +2 damage, not +3 damage.
And if one gives +2 dice to damage resistance and the other gives +3 dice to damage resistance, then you get +3 dice to damage resistance and not +5 dice to damage resistance.
Does the cyber still give armor in SR4 or was that changed? At least the bio-Version won't set off metal detectors all around you . . And the Bio Version heals like normal bone.
Now the Cyber-Variant might not even break, if you're using one of the metallic versions . . but it still does bend and twist, if enough force should be applied.
Granted, if you're at that point you have WAY more pressing problems than that . . but if you make it out of there, you need to get that repaired, while the bio stuff just grows back together over time.

"Bone Lacing is incompatible with Bone Density Augmentation bioware."
"Bone Density Augmentation is incompatible with the Bone Lacing implant."

Was that changed?
I remember dumpshock and several other boards discussing just this issue at length several times . .

Mostly personal taste, and so I don't have to worry about matching my natural stats to the full legs.

Another Bone Density/Bone Lacing question - which is optimal?

Well... One of them is Legal (Bone Density) while the Other is Forbidden Technology (Lacing) for starters. One will set off all sorts of Scanners if (Cyberware), while the Bioware Modification cannot be detected except by a Prolonged time in a diagnostic ward (or a Magically awakened individual obtains 5+ Successes on an Assensing test)...

The Bioware is Light on Essence and heavy on Money, while the Cyber is Light (relatively) on Money and Heavy on Essence...

Your choice really, since the end result is going to be somewhat heavily modified anyways (and a freak in his own right)...

We'll, I'm trying (probably in vain) to make this guy not light up like a christmas tree (or the lowglo) when he gets scanned. Same with trying to make him awakened - I want to be able to hide the fact that he is what he is (the Ghoul can do it with nanopaste - I'm gonna need a little more work I think). So I'll probably want to go with the Bone Density in that case.

Well, if you go for a Cyber-Zombie with 90% of his natural body left, why would it be hard to hide that?
Go for maximum wires, these take up one hell of essence. then take some eye and ear stuff, all headware both bio and cyber you can get.
cram it all in there.
presto. your body is still 90% natural, but you are at -1 essence or so.
now take more bioware to boost your body. like the bone stuff. nobody will notice. like muscle stuff. nobody will notice. like the suprathoid gland. nobody will notice(mostly).
it will still cost you more and more essence, without your body looking any different. aside from being slightly more buff, warmer and maybe decaying . .

and any mage or spirit, what ever looking at you and going "OMG kill it! KILLL IT NOW!!"

yeah, but that's no big difference from shape shifters, free spirits or HMHVV damaged . .
actually, why should a mage act like that, as long as he can simply keep his distance?
not like you are going to infect him. like the HMHVV guy over there for example.
you are not going to eat him either. like the shifter over there. or the HMHVV guy again.
you are not going to bomb him from the astral. like the free spirit over there.
you are not going to take over his mind and / or body. like the free spirit over there.
you only hamper his mojo, when you are close. keep your distance, and you are probably going to be left alone by most . .

That's the general idea, actually. I just don't want to go 'ding' when there's stuff (namely, cyberware scanners) being directed at me. That's why I was thinking going with the bioware equivalent to wired reflexes (there's one of those, yeah?) but that leaves me with trying to cram more 'wares into my body.


Hence the necessity for being awakened and initiated. That way I can mask or fake my astral signature to look like a garden variety dual natured creature.

I think it's more about the evil wrongness, Stahlseele, not a calm and rational threat appraisal.

take a humanis mage. now shoot him in the head. you are feeling better.
take the next humanis mage. show him a human cyberzombie and a troll.
guess what will happen.

and yes, there's bio ware for reflexes, but that really means problems with going into negative essence.
and if you have some obvious eyes and datajack for example, most people are going to say:
he went ding . . he looks normal . . ah, there's the datajack and the eyes . . let him through.
higher grade cyber is harder to detect too, mind you.

A cyberzombie who doesn't "ding" is kind of impossible with your budget. You're better off with a good fake ID and permits for your 'ware. I would still go for bone density augmentation, though, since bone lacing is legality F (forbidden).

Masking really doesn't do jack all to either change your apparent Essence, or to make your astral hazing less visible. Astrally, a cyberzombie will always be "pink mohawk", no matter how "grey trenchcoat" his outer appearance might be.

Indeed. You'll be a neon explosion in a fake moustache.

Alright, sounds like I'm gonna "ding 'cause there's stuff..." but why go for bone density in that case? Couldn't I just get a (fake) license for my lacing?


May I sig this?

No.
You can not get a license for FORBIDDEN.
You can get a license for RESTRICTED.

Then Bone Density sounds like the way to go.

If I'm the Ares Security Mage at the Facility and a CyberZombie walks into the atrium of the building who isn't giving off the Ares all clear commlink signals. My protocol would be, "kill it now, ask questions later."

I didn't mean every mage on the street is going to OMG kill him now! I meant, every security mage is going to say that.

If you're the security mage, and you let a CZ slip past you? You're so fired it's not even funny.

although did you miss the description about Cyberzombies?

The procedures that create a cyberzombie are powerfully
magical and emotional events. Even after the procedure is over,
mana continues to pool and distort around a cyberzombie.
Whether this is a result of the dark magic used or an unconscious
psychosomatic manifestation of the spirit’s anguish at its unnatural
condition is unknown.

Cyberzombies are an abhoration, unlike Shapeshifters. It's not about being Dual Natured, it's about being a walking 4 Background count.

If the CZ is going to be a problem, being fired is the least of your concerns. More like the bullets/blades he brings to bear.

If the CZ isn't yours, he's by definition a problem.

He's a CZ. That's like asking if the Terminator is going to be a problem.

I like that coinage: an abhorrent aberration. Also, abominable.

Well, yeah, that's bad. But the other members of the team are bloodsuckers and cannibals, so am I really that much of an aberration, given the company I keep?

I mean, yes.

No amount of nanopaste is going to do the ghoul any good from the astral side of things - though with a CZ's aura around to draw attention, it might go unnoticed. But as a CZ you'll need at least two initiations if you want your astral presence to pass under the radar - or at least not hitting every red alert button.
- one to disguise your aura as someone more mainstream
- cleansing to stop leaking nasty stuff into the astral like a Total oil platform

SR2 and SR3 were a bit more explicit on that side of things, but basically very few things looks as bad in the astral as a cyberzombie and the astral trash he's leaking around. Think a beat up rust bucket of a car shedding used oil and rusty bits all the time. Even with a good paintjob, odds are the customer won't be fooled. In comparison, a ghoul or vampire's aura will look pristine...

The thing to keep in mind with a ghoul is that mundane ghouls who get any 'ware at all will lose their dual-natured quality. And they can disguise themselves pretty well with enough 'ware - digestive expansion (they don't lose their dietary requirement, but can eat "normal" food when they have to), major cosmetic biomods to look "normal", clean metabolism to take care of the smell, and cybereyes to get rid of their blindness. They still need to eat metahuman flesh to survive, but their problems pale in comparison to those of a cyberzombie.

Initiate twice or initiate once and take Cleansing for 15 karma?

I'm not sure if the Ghoul has 'wares or if he's awakened or not - I think it might be both.

I will say this - I'm starting to think that disguising myself isn't going to work so well. Either I cleanse and lose my Astral Hazing (which is a potent defense) or I don't and my mere presence screams "Aberration! Warning! Warning!"

I'm not even sure Cleansing would work in the first place. Tricky.

Since a cyberzombie's Magic Attribute can not be increased by any means, an awakened cyberzombie could only initiate once, at any rate.

Honestly, I wouldn't worry that much about stealth in a "freaks" campaign - your group will likely stand out one way or another, in any situation.

Yeah, that's probably true. I'll just have to make sure the Awakened guys get Filtering, so they can still do their thing despite my Astral Hazing.

Ok, so I was looking over Quake's thread on Martial Arts, and I had some questions which pertain to this character. I'm going for the Grammaton Cleric style combatant, namely, one who can use one or (usually) two pistols in combat at any distance, but focused on arm's reach, either as clubs or as guns. I'd also like skill with blades, and unarmed as well (as previously mentioned, my GM has said there is underground-bare-knuckle-no-holds-barred-cage-fighting going on, and I will be expected to kick some butt). So how do I get effective at these things? I understand, from a previous thread, that I can get pretty impressive dice pools for dual pistols (14 dice each, after the split), but I'm not sure how to do the same for clubs. Also, I understand that a huge DV is less important than throwing lots of dice, so I'm basically looking to maximize those skills.

So, are there any combos (martial arts, tactics, etc.) that would help me fight in that style, and do so effectively?

Going in another direction, are there any tricks to building a good sniper? Can sniper's rifles be used effectively at close range (i.e. like a "Quick Scoper" in CoD)?

From looking at that thread, all I can say is that if I ever had a player try to use Full Offense as a maneuver for ranged combat and I was the GM, I would cave in and finally buy SR4A - so that I could use the thicker, heavier book to beat him about the head with.

For melee combat, being able to hit them at all is usually the more important component, but high base damage can also be an important factor when you run into the tougher tank-type builds, which you might see in an underworld bare-knuckle boxing arena. For a mundane, you get that from the martial arts quality (up to +3DV), bone lacing or density augmentation (up to +3DV), and a high Strength score. You might not feel like investing 15 points/30 Karma into qualities, but you plan on having the bone density augmentation, and should certainly have some kind of Strength augmentation if you don't want all of the other cyberzombies to laugh at you. Get your Strength augmented up to 7 or 8, and you will, with your denser bones, at least do a respectable 7P damage. As a cyberzombie, you should get most of your advantages from having 4 IPs and freakishly high Agility and Reaction.

I'm fine investing karma in qualities, actually. And I'm not quite sure what you mean with the Full Offense ranged maneuver bit - but that's probably just lack of familiarity with the system (the only game I've played in so far has been combat light) more than anything else.

Which qualities increase Unarmed DV?

Check out Arsenal's Martial Arts rules, page 156 onward. There are a bunch, plus more funky qualities to increase your combat prowess.

I will - I was already thinking about Krav Maga, and it's ability to lower the "Shooting while in Melee" penalty, as well as the "Aim as a Free Action" ability. Those seem salient to the Grammaton Cleric Gun Kata style of fighting. But I was wondering, what sort of interesting things can I do in melee, both Unarmed and Armed?

Well a -6 essence CZ is going to be a monster in bare knuckle brawls because he has... 12 points of hardened armor. Very few if any would be able to hurt him. You would ether need a base damage of 12 (Strength 11, +3 damage from bone lacing/bone density, +3 damage from martial arts) or be an Adept with some serious points into magic unarmed damage boost (since you'll be inside that 4 background count).

*Edit*
As a little side note, with that 12 points of hardened armor, you'll be bouncing everything short of .50 cal sniper rifles and Assault Cannons in your birthday suit (unless they use APDS rounds in some of the heavier guns). Add on some decent armor and a really low essence CZ is a super tank.

Yeah, I'm expecting most fights to be like the quick bout between Gorgeous George and Micky the Traveller in Snatch - I get knocked about a bit by the larger, tougher looking guy, but then Bam! KO.

As a CZ, your one of those rare cases where most things that manage to hurt you will be actual physical rather than stun damage. Your hardened armor will stop most damage cold, with no chance of doing anything to you. Heavy pistols loaded with APDS rounds "tickle" you and that's about it.

Also, your reaction can be pretty monstrous. With that 4 your planning on buying, you can get a 4 (14). That's move by wire 3 (+6), reaction enhancer 3 (+3), and suprathyroid (+1). That is 14 dice to non-actively defend against ranged attacks and 14+skill to non-actively defend against melee attacks. With a Dodge skill of 6 and specialization in ranged, you would be throwing 25 dice against ranged on full defense (14 reaction, +6 skill, +2 specialization, +3 Move-by-Wire 3).

You're naturally a damage tank against most things, so what you should focus on is your passive and active defense, since nothing can get in the same range as a CZ. Your max reaction will be 12 (18) without any gene op, exception attributes, or surge. Using the genetic optimization and exceptional reaction, you can get a # (21) reaction, which would make you damn near unhitable by anything. Your active defense would be 30+.

And if you do that to your agility, you will out fight anything else, even if you're defaulting on pure attribute.

Wow...I can really get messed up can't I. And I was worried that my stats would be low, even with augmentation.

zeN, where can I find that 800 BP thread? I searched but it didn't work.

The 800BP thread is over in community projects.
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=23592

And this is my 400BP CZ with unlimited budget to give you an idea
http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?s=&a...st&p=837172