This is for discussing what Amazonia actually looks like.

The country, the cities, the people.

If someone beats me to it, can someone post a basic deal from the SoLA.

SoLA isn't out. I doubt it ever will be (even though most of us still want it). Most of the info from SoLA is in War if I remember correctly.

As for Amazonia I imagine it is Ecocracy (Rule by Nature). The dragons and shamans of the nation dictate national policy and because they are the strongest faction in the country, their word is law. Most of the corporate interests are located on the coast (along with the largest centre of metahumans).

The Amazonia draft for SoLA was never released, all we have is Ancient History's draft for 6WA that is two pages only focusing on the cities.

To me, Amazonia is similat to how some of the Native American nations look like, HUGE AREAS with no human population, returned to nature, and some major cities that people were evacuated to.
Metrópole (that I would consider not only being São Paulo and Rio de Janeiro, but the rest of the Southeast states too, Minas Gerais and Espírito Santo is the most populated region of Amazonia. Pantanal and Legal Amazonia were all pretty much evacuated, with the exception of a few cities (Manaus, Belém, Campo Grande, etc).

That being said, I still think that the industry of São Paulo would be kept. Quite possibly with draconian enviromental legislation, reducing productivity, but I guess it would still be there.

I could have sworn there was a SoLA in 3rd edition? Am I miss remembering.

I'll have to search my harddrive.

SoLA is a ghost book, it's never seen print. We've gathered what drafts the authors have made available here, in this very section of this very forum.
But yeah, seems like the only thing we have on Amazonia is a 6WA draft with only a couple of cities described.

The way I see Amazonia is like some NAN states - that is, first, very strong in everything that comes to magic (including great blood magic rituals like the one making the jungle grow so fast), second, very ecologically conscious, but not to the point of not having an industry. Rather, since they don't recognize the Business Accords, an inspection can drop on the head of any corp working in the country, and thoroughly check if the practices they engage in are really as ecologically friendly as they sounded when Hoalpa allowed the construction; that sort of thing.

Ok, finally had the chance to read the Aztlan sourcebook and somethings don't make sense from the start.
In this book, it is said, by jungle cat, that Bogotá belongs to Amazonia.
Considering this as fact, then questions arise:

1- Why would Amazonia permit Aztechnology buy land in Bogotá, as it is said in 'War!'?
2- Why Amazonia didn't declare war against Aztlan in the first place when they bombed Bogotá's Congress WITH CONGRESSMEN INSIDE and would have all the PR favoring them, instead of waiting 1 whole year to be caught with the hand stuck in the cookie jar with the whole Sangre del Drago facility incident?

I invoke Chewbacca defense here...

Colombia switches hands a couple of times from 2050 to 2073.

1) It starts off as Colombia
2) Amazonia takes it over when they take over the rest of South America
3) Aztlan 'frees' it, and it becomes an independent buffer state.
4) Aztlan gives up all pretense and makes it a New State inside Aztlan.
5) Trees! harhar! -> war

I believe that everything going on in Ghost Cartels happens after point 4.

Uhm, ok. Then when exactly, does 3) happens?

The timeline in War!, page 21 says this:



It actually says Bogotá and vicinities were supposed to be an independent nation again. Which would not make sense, at least to me...

So, bogotá is turned independent, Aztechnology begins buying land around the city. And the colombians just sit and watch?
They could have asked for UN and CC support and I'm pretty sure that the corps (Ares and Saeder-Krupp specially) would gladly help Bogotá against this "subtle invasion" in exchange for a few acres of land just to piss of Aztlan (in the case of Ares) and Hualpa (in the case of Saeder-Krupp)...

The Colombians petitioned to become part of Aztlan in the SR3 timeline, I believe.

I'm redownloading all my sr3 books, to see if I can find it.

The german guy with the cool world map with a timeline slider has the colombia stuff in there.

But I can't see the website from work.

Also, here comes the southern border of Aztlan as of 2056:



Following this, a shadowtalker says that Bogotá is officialy inside Amazonia but she would call it "disputed territory".

Then Jungle Cat says: The Aztlaners know better than to contest Bogotá.

Jungle Cat is an Amazonian Shill though

So he could be 'fronting' pretty badly. It wouldn't be the first time a shadowtalker does that.


And yes, in the 2050's Bogota is in Amazonia.
In the 2060's it first becomes an independent state, and then petitions to join Aztlan.

I wish I had my sr3 books with me.

Gah that border is so so so so stupid.
The borders should be from the southern tip of Lake Maracaibos, and then along the Mountains.
This makes Bogota a border town that could really go either way.

Agreed! Oh well, I'm stuck at this point writing about the Amazonian Military to decide where the border begins and ends and decide how technological they will be too.

Edit: Also, sabs, the map made by lokii does not mention Bogotá changing sides. It shows when Amazonia conquers all Venezuela and half Colombia and when Aztlan "liberates" a chunk of Venezuela.

I'll have to look. There is a spot where the northern part of Colombia becomes a Free state, and then becomes part of Aztlan. Is Bogota really going to stay Amazonian when Amazonia has no way of exerting influence on it?

Why Amazonia would have no way of exerting influence over Bogotá? And for that matter, why Aztlan would do better?
Honest curiosity here, really.

Well it depends on the Military of Amazonia.

But the basics?

Look at the Map. There's about 50 miles of Mountain, with only a handful of useable passes where you could move significant equipment and personnel.

There's a giant Cloud Forest, there's huge mountains. One of the few viable ways is going through Route 40. Look at Bogota, and the roads leading from it going E and SE there just aren't that many.

And it's against Amazonia's abandoned jungle/back to nature areas.

If we go with the idea that most of Amazonia's Metahumanity is in Metropole. Most everything is two thousand miles away from the industrial center. It's a logistical nightmare for Amazonia.

Again, depending on their military.

Bogota is also 200 miles from the Coast, so using an Aircraft Carrier to exert control is problematic. (And way easier for Aztlan to do than Amazonia)

Point taken. They could still have air bases though. But yeah, it is not that cheap to do it...

But then again, it would be up to Hualpa and Sirrurg how much they would be willing to give up and let Aztlan take.

Do Hualpa and Sirrug give a flying wet far about Stuff outside the Amazon basin?

That's definitely the question of the day. To me, that answer will guide how the war should play out.

I mean, if I'm Those Great Dragons, instead of using Magic to make jungle cover climb up the mountains. I'm just going to make the mountains higher, and more impassible. Encourage Wyverns or something else equally dangerous to live there and cause trouble for any passing airplanes.

Caracas? Maracaibos? Those are worth getting. That's flat flood plains between Aztlan and my Jungle.

MY Jungle.
Hualga is going to play this like Lofwyr would. You want to come play in /my/ House. I'm going to bring it. You want to threaten /my/ Domain? Oh hell no... it's on.

But not in a Ghostwalker Godzilla way. He's not going to show up personally. Not against anti-air missiles.

But the mountains? Meh.. unless there's a compelling reason why those don't make a good natural border.

I believe they do. There was always the impression that the fight between Amazonia and Aztlan was more than political divergences and more like a personal grudge between Hualpa, Sirrurg and whatever it is that controls Aztlan from the shadows.



Agreed, while I can see Sirrurg taking matters into its own hands, er, claws, I think Hualpa would use the metahumans and other minions to accomplish this.



And in the end would be a matter of who would want the mountains. I think a better natural border would be the Magdalena River in the valley between Bogotá and Medellin.

The only problem with using that River as a natural border. In today's (2072) warfare environment, a river does not pose a significant boundary or obstacle. I can LAV over a river quite easily. I can have a temporary bridge up over parts of it rather easily. Impassable Mountains, are still, that. And it's easier to narrow that down.

Now, maybe Sirrug and Hualpa want to push to the Panama Canal. All of South America as a Domain for them to control. That's not unreasonable. It's.. grandiose, and hard to pull off, but it's not unreasonable.

Certainly South America is the /easiest/ Continent to control in that way. There's only 1 small land bridge connection. One side is completely cut off by a set of really unfortunate mountains. The otherside requires only a good Coastal Navy. The plan has merit.

For two warmonger nations, yeah, a river is a problem and I agree with you. I just think the river would make a natural border easier to draw.



Their objective is the totallity of South America, Europe and a thirde continent of their choice?

But yes, I think their plan, besides anihillation of Aztlan, would take control of South America as far as Panama.



Indeed it has. So, are we supposed to believe that Sirrurg and Hualpa plan is to push Aztlan back to Panama?

I dunno, Plan vs Pull Off is of course completely different.
Aztlan isn't a push over.

It's a possibility. Personally, I would say that Sirrurg and Hualpa are happy controlling the Amazonian Basin.

So Bolivia, Uruguay, Paraguay, Argentina, Brazil, Venezuela, Guinea, French Guinea, Suriname.. and call it a day.

I don't think Annihilation of Aztlan is a viable Goal. It's too big, too entrenched, and people would start lobbing Thor Shots before they got north of Nicaragua.

Caracas ain't exactly a "flat flood plain". While being less than 15 kilometers away from the sea, Caracas lies above 800 meters, and the surrounding low mountains stand between 1,000 and 2,500 meters.

Bolivia, Paraguay and Argentina are not theirs yet.
Besides, you forgot Peru, Chile and Equador to the list. Or are we letting the Andes out of the equation?

Also, I know it is never described (which is a shame, really), but I think that Bolivia would have a lot of corps strip mining for lithium to create batteries for everything. While the wealthy are still wealthy, the poor and SINless work in precarious conditions in these mines.

Yes, the Amazon basin is surrounded by hills/mountains. I'm saying Caracas might even be the outer edge. But it's certainly flatter than say 3000-4000 meters up. Look at the Google Maps, see Route 13? Everything south of that is flat. Yes, Caracas is in low mountains. Most of that Coast is mountainous. But compared to the Andes, it's kind of a joke.


I was thinking that They might see the Andes as a nice buffer/border and leave it at that.

I know that Argentina, Bolivia, aren't theirs yet. Although, I'm not sure why not. I was saying I think that goal, is more realistic than "everything south of Panama"

Bolivia should really be strip mining and doing horrible things, and shipping that stuff West into Chile. I can see Hualpa getting ready to send his troops into Bolivia because of the mining run off being thrown into the Amazon Basin, but being unable to, because he's busy with Aztlan.

In order to establish what Amazonia looks like, and what they're up to. We have to decide whats' up with the rest of South America.

Argentina
Peru
Chile
Paraguay
Bolivia

What do those countries look like, how did they survive the original creation of Amazonia. Why did Amazonia take Uruguay and not Paraguay.

Why did Bolivia do to stay independent, when even Colombia couldn't pull it off.

Will we use the drafts for SoLA here?

They have the drafts for Bolívia and Argentina. Perhaps it is a good start.

I'll have to read them tonight, see what I think.

I'm going to say: Probably.

We don't HAVE to write up what we think of Bolivia, Peru, etc..
We just have to know ourselves what's going on there. We can throw some of that in a sidebar.
We could have 2 shadowtalkers argue about Bolivia briefly. Giving hints, without having to do a big write up.

If we're switching away from Alt.War to a more "Shadows of X" then that's okay. But then we need to be on the same page, and agree to it. I think Just having a small blurb about each country for ourselves as background notes is fine and dandy. We can revisit later if we really feel like giving someone tools for running a Bolivia based Shadowrun game.

I don't say to write them too. Just use them as ground base and work from there.

Yes..

Basically we need to decide what's going on with all those countries, and why they exist, and how they exist.

So we can determine What the Hell Hualpa and Sirrurg are doing.

Amazonia is very likely to have an ultra-strong mana battery called a locus. Unless stuff happened to that one, they won´t need blood magic to empower the jungle.

I've sent a PM to Demonseed Elite about Aztlan and Bogotá as he was the man who wrote about Aztlan for the never published SoLA. I hope he can give us some insight.

Well, if Ancient Files are to be believed, they admit using blood magic for that.

I just read Bolivia..
I kinda buy it
Kinda

if Amazonia can seriously go to war with Aztlan, why can't they roll Bolivia like a cigar?

I'm gonna look at Argentina next.

We have a minor problem.

Argentina says basically:
Amazonia would have kicked our asses, but the Corporate Court stopped them.

JapCorps+Aztlan voted as a block, with only Ares voting for Amazonia.

Now we have Aztlan on the 'offensive' with the backing of the Corporaet Court.

Amazonia is now in a fight against Aztlan, and the Corporate Court is firmly against them. Why don't they swing south and run Argentina over? From what I'm reading, it wouldn't even be that hard.



This causes us some issues.

French Guiana
A nuclear stock pile? France, Amazonia and S-K sitting together and then signing a truce?

Cayenne and Caracas are starting to look seriously redundant.

We need to decide what to do about FG.

Because the Corporate Court is still against Amazonia, and if they jump south, more megas are going to get involved?
Or because their hands are full with one conflict, and they don't have anything for a second one?

So far, the Corporate Court support has been only vocal. Save a few Ares contractors according to War!, Amazonia is only facing Aztlan and Aztechnology forces. Attacking Argentina and Peru, openly defying the Corporate Court and disrupting regional trade could result in the Japanese moving to protect their economical interests. It would not just be the three Japanese AAA megacorporations, but also the AA and the Japanese Imperial State. A move in French Guiana would have a similar result with Saeder-Krupp and France.

Aztlan and Aztechnology presence in Colombia and Venezuela is a direct military threat to Amazonia. Argentina or France and S-K presence in French Guiana, are not. As far as I can tell, they have no plan to invade Amazonia or raid Manaus. If they start massing troops, it'll be time to reconsider. But as of now, Amazonia has a lot to lose in opening one or two new fronts against new enemies, divesting forces and resources from the ongoing war with Aztlan (and blowing the war out of proportion, background-wise). As bad as Amazonia wants to conquer the entire continent, I think they can delay their plan for a more favorable moment.

I fail to see what Caracas and Cayenne have in common. Caracas is the last remain of Venezuela, a major population hub where Aztlan, Amazonia and the cartels have been covertly operating for two decades prior to the flare-up. Cayenne is a small town with some major corporate aerospace assets in the area (S-K, Proteus and Neonet owned) and a small French military presence.

French Guiana would probably be a stagging area for Aztechnology attempts to infiltrate black ops team in Amazonia. With Dassault and the recent acquisition of Esprit Industries, Aztechnology has a lot of military assets headquartered in France. The Amazonian would complain to the French about this, but taking any step to actively prevent this would bring us back to aforementioned point and risk opening a new front. So, no matter what Amazonia may try to do, it is a win-win situation for Aztechnology.

Found some info on Amazonia in Harlequin adventure, page 95-106.

Well the French and Amazonia signed a peace treaty, brokered by S-K

So, The French Nobility, Signed a deal with Hualpa, brokered by Lofwyr

The rumor is because the French have a stock pile of neutron bombs in FG. WHich, seems ludicrous. Something else is going on there.

I ment that.. supposedly FG and Cayene is a hotbed of espionage, and people jockeying for information and runs into Amazonia.

But it can work, it's subtelly different from Caracas.. it's just Caracas is only a few miles away.

About 1,000 miles.

Every city in the area we describe that is not at war is going to be a hotbed of espionage activity of some sort.
However, remember Caracas has 23 millions inhabitants. French Guiana total population is around 250,000. Cayenne is a small city. There is no crowd to blend in for newcomers arriving at the airport or the harbor. I don't think you can't operate in Cayenne proper. That's why I was talking about a stagging area: the teams would arrive, assemble their gear and go. Amazonia would keep some people to check for the military facilities, but hunting the special ops team in town would be too risky. Far easier for them to patrol the jungle and get those teams when they cross the border (they probably do so even in peacetime against illegal telesma gathering operations). And send some people in Paris and Essen instead to gather high-level intelligence.

In comparison, Caracas should has been swarming with spies for the last twenty years, much like a Cold War-Berlin, Vienna or Beirut. Amazonia and Aztlan embassies staff and Aztechnology local branch will provide cover for dozens of them. The David Cartel and the various eco-terrorists groups would act as henchmen. And the sprawl itself is going to be the battlefield.

There's no point in fielding neutron bombs instead of "regular" nuclear weapons in French Guiana (Shadows of Latin America only mentions a "nuclear stockpile"). Well, first, France, like several other countries, tested neutron bombs but none ever fielded them as operationnal. Also, the main uses for neutron bombs would be to stop large armored vehicles forces on the ground (by killing the vehicles crew), or strategic missiles in space (by frying the incoming warhead).
Nowadays, the largest part of France nuclear arsenal onboard ballistic missile submarines. There is also a small number of ASMP air-launched air missiles in several airbases in France and onboard the Charles de Gaulle air carrier. Openly stationing nuclear capable planes and nukes on Cayenne-Rochambeau air base would be a clear signal. Also, according to SOTA:2064, France "still conducts [i]regular[/u] testing off the coast of French Guiana" but those would involve test warheads, not fully operational weapons.

The diplomatic game is going to be a bit complicated. Aztechnology armament subsidiary Dassault recently took over Esprit Industries, which has or had until recently close ties to the French armed forces and intelligence services. Meanwhile, Saeder-Krupp turned its back on the French government after it launched investigations against the members of the aristocratic conspiracy. As far as I understand, Lofwyr supported the government to oppose the conspiracy, and stopped doing so as soon as it no longer needed to.
I can imagine Lofwyr plotting the whole thing well ahead. If the French government can no longer rely on S-K support, they can be tempted to get closer to Aztechnology. That would give a good reason for Amazonia to fear (or, at least, consider) a French involvement in the war and the opening of a second front. That would put Lofwyr just in the right position to manipulate the situation one way or another.

Wow, ESPRIT got bought out By Aztech? Fucking AAA corp consolidation.

Can't we have any AA's that aren't wholly owned subsidiaries of someone else.

They gut Lone Star, and put in place KE (which is owned by Ares)
They do this.

Yes, it annoys me too...
So, it seems Amazonia received warnings from the Corp Court to stop its military campaign or things would get ugly.
Now they are on the defensive against Aztlan-Aztechnology.

Of course, I still think they would still have a lot of troops guarding the borders. Conventional troops mostly. With the ocasional Wyvern/Adept-rider patrolling.

Well it looks like we're starting to have some thoughts on what's going on.

Bolivia: Exists because Amazonia backed it, and hasn't had a chance to come squash them when they turned on the Amazonia Principles.
Argentina: Is still around because The Court protected it. (Specifically the JapCorps)
FG: France and Amazonia signed a Peace Treaty that neither is particularly excited to break. Maybe it's because of nukes, maybe it's other shit. Who knows, who cares for now.
Peru/Chile Exist as JapCorp sponsored Countries. Would it be unrealistic to merge these two countries together? Amazonia isn't fond of them either, but theyr'e on the other side of the Andes. Aztlan probably wouldn't mind controlling them, but given that this entire war with Amazonia only goes forward right now because of the good graces of the JapCorps (Renraku, Neo-Net, Shiawase, MCT).

That makes sense. It also helps explain why the French Foreign Legion is in Caracas as well as Cayene. France has a vested interest in the out come of this war. They're watching from the sidelines, and building up troops in case they need to step in.

I feel like Channel should be a French AA, that would have a vested interest in FG and Amazonia. So would any number of European Pharmaceutical companies.

And what about Paraguay? They were annexed by someone?

The only two other countries that Amazonia doesn't have a direct border right now is Equador and Chile.
I could see Equador, Peru and Chile forming some sort of Andine economic-military treaty backed by the Japanacorps.

I would say honestly, that Paraguay got eaten by Amazonia.

Paraguay's military is a joke. Argentina was getting it's ass handed to it all along the border.
The big giant fight was in Resistencia, which is on the Paraguay Argentina border.

I'm thinking we redraw that line a bit. Amazonia has most of Paraguay, although the mountainous parts went to Bolivia.

Peru/Ecuador/Chile formed some Incan/Andine economic group that's backed by the Japan 4.

Over half of Peru is on the east side of the Andes, lots of it being amazonian rainforest. Is it reasonable to think the magic that is regenerating the forest in Amazonia would stop at the imaginary border?

However, having the magic stopping at the border can also make sense if you consider how Earthdawn-era "pattern magic" worked.

Or you have Peru lose 1/2 of their stuff to Amazonia

Honestly, the border of Amazonia should look like the Andes to the north and west, until you get to Argentina.

Also, remember according to War!(bleh) the magic from the Rainforest, is causing the Cloud Forest near Bogota to expand/grow rapidly

How tied is current Shadowrun to Earthdawn mythology?

This makes sense to me. There is little or no difference in the rain forest till it rises up the Andes and meets the cloud forest.

Channel with two -n- is the sea between France and Great Britain. Chanel wi a single -n- is the fashion house known for its iconic bags and perfumes "N°5". Fashion house, like firearms manufacturers, may enjoy world-renowed brands, there are really small fishes. L'Oréal's incomes are fifteen times larger than Chanel's (L'Oréal belongs to Swiss AA Zeta-Imperial Chemicals, in case you should ask).

Besides, I think basing SR megacorporation on a single RL corporation is a bad idea. The later are overly specialized (because that's how markets have business working nowadays) while megacorporation should have a broad range of products and services, and a global presence, to really deserve the rating.

You can turn the snark down a little.

But a French based Corp/Megacorp that's deeply invested in telesma and 'ingredients' coming from Amazonia for the purposes of Cosmetic Materials, and Medicine, and improved Genetherapy and Bioware is well within the realm of the possible.

Chanel is a very strong brand, they're ALREADY an A corp. Having Manufacturing, R&D on 3 different Continents. Now, It's probably likely that they're owned by some bigger fish.

Chanel already does leather goods, etc, they've been expanding. It's not out of reach to see them get picked up by a Pharma conglomarate that uses the 'Chanel' brand name.

I mean, would you rather get your bio dietware from ZAG Pharma, or from 'Chanel'

In a dystopian world like this, we need more AA corps that aren't owned by the big 10.