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Omenowl
I was rereading the wire damage and noticed it is entirely misguided in the use. Barbed wire is to deter animals from moving through the fence. Concertina wire is to entangle and expose someone so they are unable to move while being fired on. Neither of these wires are going to kill you unless you somehow entangle your throat and rub your neck along the wire (or blood poisoning). I feel that instead the damage should be 2S for barbed wire and 3S for concertina wire. Characters have to also pass a threshold of 1 for barbed wire to move through the wire and 2 for concertina wire per meter pushed through or over. Until a character has passed through the wire they are unable to dodge or parry. I feel this is a better representation of the wire.

Concertina wire must be cut or a shaped charge used to remove it as an obstacle.
Yerameyahu
Maybe it's sharper in the future. Also, everyone has armor, so it *won't* be killing anyone.
Omenowl
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Feb 7 2011, 08:46 PM) *
Maybe it's sharper in the future. Also, everyone has armor, so it *won't* be killing anyone.


Well apparently it has the same punch of a pistol so it is some pretty damn lethal wire as statted in the game. The monowire didn't bother me as much for damage as I assumed it removed whatever it crossed.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Omenowl @ Feb 7 2011, 07:29 PM) *
I was rereading the wire damage and noticed it is entirely misguided in the use. Barbed wire is to deter animals from moving through the fence. Concertina wire is to entangle and expose someone so they are unable to move while being fired on. Neither of these wires are going to kill you unless you somehow entangle your throat and rub your neck along the wire (or blood poisoning). I feel that instead the damage should be 2S for barbed wire and 3S for concertina wire. Characters have to also pass a threshold of 1 for barbed wire to move through the wire and 2 for concertina wire per meter pushed through or over. Until a character has passed through the wire they are unable to dodge or parry. I feel this is a better representation of the wire.

Concertina wire must be cut or a shaped charge used to remove it as an obstacle.


Have you ever been cut, or seen someone cut, by Concertina Wire? Really cut I mean? I can assure you that it is indeed physical damage, and leaves horrible, thick, welt like scars when they heal (if they heal). Scars that, if you want to have full functionality, should they be anywhere near a joint (due to the crazy amounts of Scar Tissue developed when healing), you must have surgically repaired after they have healed.

The grunt in my unit that was caugtht on the wires had his neck, shoulder and back laid bare (granted it was an accident, but horrendous nonetheless)... It took weeks for it to heal, and the scars were about 3/4" thick after they healed. They operated on him several months later to remove the scar tissue and pull the skin back together. Horrible business...

AS for removing Concertina Obstacles... Cutting is way to slow, and shaped charges tend to not work as well as you may think, depending on placement and the skill of the demolitionist. My Motto is: Always use a Bangalore when dealing with Concertina...

There are a lot of places that you can get hung up on and have the end result become death due to severed arteries or veins. The neck is not the only place... legs, arms and some torso areas will render you just as dead if you are unfortunate enough to get caught in a mess of Concertina.

As for the Dodging and parrying while in concertina or barbed wire... Agree whole heartedly...
Yerameyahu
The pistol gets net hits, AP, and special ammo. 5P won't 'realistically' be killing anyone.
Omenowl
I felt it should be damage per turn until they extricate themselves for concertina wire. I did expect them to get injured, but the assumption is it would be slow.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Omenowl @ Feb 7 2011, 08:03 PM) *
I felt it should be damage per turn until they extricate themselves for concertina wire. I did expect them to get injured, but the assumption is it would be slow.


No doubt, it is very slow indeed, if you have no other choice but to navigate through it... and even still, you are likely to take many, many nicks and cuts... Though if you are careful, they will generally not be very serious.

There are a few very good methods to move through Concertina wire... none of them are fast...

I would more worry about who may start firing at you while you are in the middle of the obstacle... wobble.gif
Mardrax
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Feb 8 2011, 03:53 AM) *
There are a lot of places that you can get hung up on and have the end result become death due to severed arteries or veins. The neck is not the only place... legs, arms and some torso areas will render you just as dead if you are unfortunate enough to get caught in a mess of Concertina.

Oh yes. Your inner thigh arteries get a lot more blood flow than those leading up to your brain put together, especially when experiencing stress. You run half a minute away from the armed guards, try to jump the concertina and get it caught between your legs, nicking your femoral veins or arteries, you'd be in hypovolemic shock within half a minute, and have lost half of your blood by that time as well, if not more. Your upper arm artery is slightly less bad but still far worse than your carotid, when you've just been running.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Mardrax @ Feb 7 2011, 08:10 PM) *
Oh yes. Your inner thigh arteries get a lot more blood flow than those leading up to your brain put together, especially when experiencing stress. You run half a minute away from the armed guards, try to jump the concertina and get it caught between your legs, nicking your femoral veins or arteries, you'd be in hypovolemic shock within half a minute, and have lost half of your blood by that time as well, if not more. Your upper arm artery is slightly less worse but still far worse than your carotid, when you've just been running.


Indeed... it ain't pretty...
jaellot
The farm stuff leaves wicked scars, too. I scar badly as is, and still have a few from an incident when I was 8 (almost 32 now).

The cows would use it as a back scratcher, though it worked well enough on keeping the calves in check. Kept the adults in check also, but then again, cows are stupid. Big, tasty. and stupid.
Whipstitch
Yeah, I have a friend who wiped out on an ATV and hit some plain ol' farm wire and she was lucky to just be scarred for life.
Fortinbras
It's not so broken that it requires additional rules to pile on top of my already rule beleaguered players.

The scar on the inside of my right leg from when my friend Kenny let go of the fence too early disagrees as well.
If you are ever asked to go deer hunting at 4 in the morning after staying up 'till 2, DONT!
kzt
QUOTE (Omenowl @ Feb 7 2011, 08:03 PM) *
I felt it should be damage per turn until they extricate themselves for concertina wire. I did expect them to get injured, but the assumption is it would be slow.

I've fallen into concertina. It's damn sharp, but it you move slowly and carefully you can extricate yourself with no significant injury, just slightly damaged clothes. In my case I was mostly embarrassed more then anything.
CanRay
There's also a difference in the way the wire is typically set up between a farmer's fence and the top of a security wall. The farmer's fence will have a few strands of it at a good distance from each other, whereas the security fence will have a few strands close together and angled at a way to make it more effective at catching people, or wound in a spiral for the same reason.

Of course, my only experience with it myself is by touching the part that wasn't covered in barbs. Of course, the folks I was with had declined to let the "City Boy" know that it was electrified... Electrocution number four.
Mardrax
Electrified concertina wire? It wasn't coincidentally burning and possessed of mammalia as well?
CanRay
Barbed wire.
Mardrax
Ah. A farmer's favourite indeed. Be glad you just touched it, and weren't convinced by said farmfolks that urinating over it would be a good plan. That's always a laugh nyahnyah.gif
Stahlseele
i hate electrified fences that are supposed to keep cows in check . .
i did not know what they were as a kid.
so what did i do?
no, not lean on it, no, not piss on it . .
jumped on it with my feet on the lower part and both hands on the upper part.
nothing on my touched the ground anymore.
and i flew back almost 2m from the shock i got . .
i. am. never. ever. going. near. one. of. those. again.
Yerameyahu
I saw that movie, great scene. smile.gif

Are there rules for electrified fences in SR? I don't remember seeing them, but I've never really looked. It'd be easy to make your own, of course.
CanRay
Consider it a taser if it's low amperage. Lethal damage if high amperage. Adjust as needed if you have it set to various different strengths. (My Grandfather had some wire strung along to keep his dogs in the yard that was barely a tingle to me. Of course, I had built up a bit of resistance over the years...).
jaellot
The goats we used to have could duck under it fast enough to not feel the zap.

Wrapping a baggy t-shirt (dripping wet from a romp in the woodland creek) around the wires in an effort to prevent its contact with said wires while crossing them is not only comedically ironic, but will also result in at least four shocks and the laying out of your dumb adolescent ass on the ground.

It also suddenly occurs to me, from my posts in this thread alone, that it is a miracle I've made it to adulthood.
hobgoblin
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Feb 8 2011, 03:55 PM) *
I saw that movie, great scene. smile.gif

Are there rules for electrified fences in SR? I don't remember seeing them, but I've never really looked. It'd be easy to make your own, of course.

Yep, 260 SR4A. basically a 5S.

The damage codes seems to be based on the person failing to spot that there is a fence and run into it, or in other ways put his body weight on it.
Omenowl
Most electrified fences use pulses. You definitely feel it, but if you don't connect well with the ground it will have less impact than if you touch it wet and barefoot. I will say this much while it hurts it was only on the 5th time of getting shocked while trying to feed a horse that I figured I would go inside to turn off the wire. I just laughed when I got shocked because it funny even though it hurt.
CanRay
Yeah, I can't say the times I was zapped were funny for me. Even now.

'Course, I was in a room full of people and totally paralyzed once, and no one noticed or cared, so that might colour my thoughts on the matter.
Faraday
QUOTE (CanRay @ Feb 8 2011, 06:03 PM) *
'Course, I was in a room full of people and totally paralyzed once, and no one noticed or cared, so that might colour my thoughts on the matter.

indifferent.gif
CanRay
35 people IIRC, all of age, one an instructor supposed to be paying attention to us... Yeah, call my perceptions coloured.

A few even walked around me.
Faraday
What the hell were you people doing? O_o
CanRay
Working on robots in High School. I was in the advanced tech course.

I was trying to retrofit a H0 Scale Model Train Set to run off a very simple computer chip, with full working lights just like on the rail lines. (My hometown used to be a major rail repair station, as well as a mining center.).

Well, it was an old set I was working with (Donated by a fellow student), and the power source on it was practically direct from the main power line, and quite frayed near the base of the controller, but didn't appear so from the outside.

The Instructor stated that he expected the rest of my group should have checked up on me to make sure I was OK. I had to remind him, again, that he refused to let me into one of the groups (It was a group project) as I was the "Odd Man Out" and he didn't want to give a team an "Unfair Advantage" of having one extra person. So I was given the unfair disadvantage of working by myself, and doing the job of four people.

After the electrocution, I ended up just helping my friends in the class anyhow, and got their project going in just enough time. Even if we, um, well, cheated a bit. It was obvious that I wasn't going to be able to get it done in time or to any degree. (And, yes, I did ask for help. Denied. Again, "Unfair Advantage against the others.").

I failed that course, BTW. Cost me the advanced certificate. frown.gif
Faraday
QUOTE (CanRay @ Feb 8 2011, 08:01 PM) *
Working on robots in High School. I was in the advanced tech course.

I failed that course, BTW. Cost me the advanced certificate. frown.gif

Sounds like a major dick move on the teacher's part. :/
CanRay
Yeah... Yes it was. Hindsight, I think he thought I was currying favor due to various things that happened during my years in High School, and that I needed to be "Brought Back To Reality".

Or he just hated me.
hobgoblin
QUOTE (Omenowl @ Feb 9 2011, 02:31 AM) *
Most electrified fences use pulses. You definitely feel it, but if you don't connect well with the ground it will have less impact than if you touch it wet and barefoot. I will say this much while it hurts it was only on the 5th time of getting shocked while trying to feed a horse that I figured I would go inside to turn off the wire. I just laughed when I got shocked because it funny even though it hurt.

had a close encounter with a electric fence for cows once, while also being in contact with a basic wire grid fence. *ZAP*...
phlapjack77
don't try to put a new plug on a dryer with the old plug with bare wires already plugged in to the 220 whilest standing in a small puddle of water from the overturned cat's water dish...

really - it's a bad idea
phlapjack77
see? It even makes you double post frown.gif
Omenowl
I have only been hit by the 3 joule electric fence. I would probably have a whole different view with a 10 joule electric fence.
StealthSigma
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Feb 7 2011, 09:53 PM) *
Always use a Bangalore


Why bother limiting it to concertina?

When in doubt, use a bangalore. Mostly because bangalore is fun to say.

Got a delorean blocking your path? Use a bangalore!
Yerameyahu
But I just met 'er! -alore. :/
KarmaInferno
On the ground, dropping a heavy metal plate across the concertina wire kinda works too. Or even just plywood.

smile.gif




-k
StealthSigma
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Feb 9 2011, 10:25 AM) *
But I just met 'er! -alore. :/


Quoth the raven, bangalore?
jaellot
QUOTE (KarmaInferno @ Feb 9 2011, 10:32 AM) *
On the ground, dropping a heavy metal plate across the concertina wire kinda works too. Or even just plywood.


Do you think one could cast a Barrier, do the option of making a wall, and just lay it down instead of keeping it vertical?
CanRay
If it's thick enough, you can use the floor mat of your Ford Americar. I suggest getting a Winter Floormat, as it's made of Rubber (Or a synthetic) and will also prevent any issues with electricity along the wire. The rest of the fence is up to you. (If you're in Seattle, a Winter Floormat is a good idea as well, as it is designed to catch water and let it evaporate rather than soak your carpet-style floor mat and start to rust out the bottom of the footwell.).
Stahlseele
QUOTE (jaellot @ Feb 9 2011, 04:42 PM) *
Do you think one could cast a Barrier, do the option of making a wall, and just lay it down instead of keeping it vertical?

But of course.
Else: ask your team troll to help you with this.
Or if you only have an elf, push him in there to get it out of the way.
This also helps with the question:"i wonder if this is an electrical fence?" *pushes elf into it*
darthmord
QUOTE (Omenowl @ Feb 9 2011, 10:08 AM) *
I have only been hit by the 3 joule electric fence. I would probably have a whole different view with a 10 joule electric fence.


In high school electronics class, senior year. I'm working on a television, specifically around the transformer and power supply.

The class clown comes ***skipping*** through the lab and kicks my arm. I 'luckily' connect my arm on both sides of the initial bridge rectifier in the TV. Want to guess what was coming through there? 440 VAC @ 60Hz. Took that hit from elbow to wrist.

That hurt... a lot. Pissed me off too.

I got up and went after him. The clown skipped away and kicked a chair out from under a guy in the back of the lab, making him hit his knees on the workbench as he fell (was using the chair as a ladder to reach something on a top shelf). The guy lands on his feet after smacking his knees on the bench. Then turns around, grabs the clown, and slams him face first into the bench a couple of times.

I was happy again. smile.gif

The instructor saw the whole incident occur, including the face smashing. He saw the problem had been addressed then shrugged and turned back around to the chalk board.

The clown didn't screw around in the lab anymore.
CanRay
Wish that had been the case in some of my classes...
Doc Chase
QUOTE (StealthSigma @ Feb 9 2011, 03:35 PM) *
Quoth the raven, bangalore?


Once upon a midnight dreary, runners argued, weak and weary,
O'er a very thick and bogglingly locked reinforced steel door,
While they bickered, nearly snapping, suddenly there came a flapping,
As if someone most gently landing, landing on the field before.
"'Tis CorpSec," the Rigger muttered, "landing on the field before--
Loose it all, and nothing more."

Runners readied weapons varied, lasers, rifles, guns named Barry,
Munitions only known of in the annals of forgotten lore,
As their rotodrone was tracking, triggers were squeezed close to cracking,
They saw it was their man Raven, returning from the general store.
He extended a tube that could destroy the reinforced steel door--
Quoth the Raven, "Bangalore."
CanRay
Doc, that was beautiful!
Doc Chase
QUOTE (CanRay @ Feb 9 2011, 07:28 PM) *
Doc, that was beautiful!


I wasn't sure I could match it to the meter. Now I'm not sure I could write an entire run to the length of the storied original. nyahnyah.gif
CanRay
Hey, I wasn't sure I would be able to get "Money" Johnson out of my head and onto a story, and look where I'm at now.

...

OK, stuck on a piece of Fallout Fan Fiction, but still...
StealthSigma
QUOTE (Doc Chase @ Feb 9 2011, 01:23 PM) *
Once upon a midnight dreary, runners argued, weak and weary,
O'er a very thick and bogglingly locked reinforced steel door,
While they bickered, nearly snapping, suddenly there came a flapping,
As if someone most gently landing, landing on the field before.
"'Tis CorpSec," the Rigger muttered, "landing on the field before--
Loose it all, and nothing more."

Runners readied weapons varied, lasers, rifles, guns named Barry,
Munitions only known of in the annals of forgotten lore,
As they aimed their horrors to the field, triggers squeezed close to cracking,
They saw it was their man Raven, returning from the general store.
He extended a tube that could destroy the reinforced steel door--
Quoth the Raven, "Bangalore."


Oh I am so glad someone with more time than I could do that.
Doc Chase
The company's being audited today, so writing this poem, titled '600 Seconds', is probably not the best way to spend my time.

To the door the bomb was sticking, quickly was the timer ticking,
The runners bolted away from the lonely reinforced steel door,
Hacker scrambled, quickly thinking, corporate response times were sinking,
Quelching alarms regarding the exploding reinforced steel door,
A gaping hole was all that remained of the reinforced steel door,
Quoth the Raven, "Bangalore."
CanRay
Hell, you're making art. That's never a waste of time. nyahnyah.gif
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