Just for fun, I'm trying to create Cervantes (from Soul Calibur) as a shadowrun character. Not having too much trouble with the stats (ghoul physad with ambidexterity and an emphasis on edged weapons), but I'm somewhat at a loss as to how to create his signature "pistol-sword." (the right hand sword in the image I linked to)
Any suggestions?
Full Version: Designing a unique weapon..
Cannon Companion has rules for creating custom firearms.
I would suggest taking the 'melee hardenned' advantage, and adding the cost of the closest sword (presumably, the katana) to the cost of melee hardenning a weapon.
I also feel that you should suffer an accuracy pentalty from firing something like a gun-sword. The bracelet gun has a -2 I think. The penalty is due to the funky non-pistol way of pointing and shooting.
A GM might allow a special 'martial-arts' manuver where one would fire the sword as one stabbed (I'd add +2 to the power of the stab and call it good) [again, more Cannon Companion fun]
I would suggest taking the 'melee hardenned' advantage, and adding the cost of the closest sword (presumably, the katana) to the cost of melee hardenning a weapon.
I also feel that you should suffer an accuracy pentalty from firing something like a gun-sword. The bracelet gun has a -2 I think. The penalty is due to the funky non-pistol way of pointing and shooting.
A GM might allow a special 'martial-arts' manuver where one would fire the sword as one stabbed (I'd add +2 to the power of the stab and call it good) [again, more Cannon Companion fun]
Using CC rules, a custom variant of "melee hardening" that is at least double the normal costs plus the cost of a blade to attach.
The above only if the GM has approved the concept. The best time to implement that is when the GM has suggested the idea.
The above only if the GM has approved the concept. The best time to implement that is when the GM has suggested the idea.
| QUOTE (DirkCjelli) |
| I also feel that you should suffer an accuracy pentalty from firing something like a gun-sword. The bracelet gun has a -2 I think. The penalty is due to the funky non-pistol way of pointing and shooting. |
Actually, I'm not sure it would be all that hard to aim.
If you look at some of the old pistols (especiallt flemish horse-pistols), they had grips that were almost collinear with the blade. I imagine that a sword-pistol would probably have a similar shape. If you can point a flashlight, you can probably point a gun-sword. Let's face it, if I had a sword with a firearm built in, I'd probably want it to be something that is heavy-hitting, close range, as a "Surprise!" for whoever I'm fighting.
Lack of iron sights, and the nonstandard grip, yes ... I can see that as making it harder to shoot things at a distance. I think that a better way to solve that (than a +1 or +2 to TN) is to simply make the ranges smaller. Heck, why not simply say that it has hold-out ranges (since most holdouts are probably just as hard to aim), even if it's firing a 10 guage buckshot?
That's what I'd do.
I'm with gknoy... Most 'pirate boarding daggers' as they were called didn't have a knife grip, but a pistol grip, for more accurate shooting. Why a pistol grip? Because a lot of Epees, Rapiers and the like already used bent-grip handles. Granted, until very late in the history of them, they were pretty crappy and prone to breaking. That wouldn't be the case in 2060, though, what with using refined metals and non-flintlock actions. <G>
I also agree with the +2 power to the melee attack if you had a manouver that let you shoot once you'd stabbed someone. That's the rule I came up with for a guy's palm-shotgun - do an open-hand attack and if you get at least 2 successes up before body, the shotgun goes off and adds +2 to the power for the Body roll.
I also agree with the +2 power to the melee attack if you had a manouver that let you shoot once you'd stabbed someone. That's the rule I came up with for a guy's palm-shotgun - do an open-hand attack and if you get at least 2 successes up before body, the shotgun goes off and adds +2 to the power for the Body roll.
There is a picture of a gun-sword on page 66 of Cyberpirates. It's a katana pistol with two handels, one pistol, and one sword handel with a special do-dad I assume is used to fire the gun when you have stabbed thine enemy.
As long as we're on the topic, what about custom melee weapons, like sword-chucks?
And gopher chucks.
sword-pistol..... isn't that rather like a bayonetted rifle?
do a google on WWI & WWII for more info.
<edit> moron me. looks like your more sorted than i am...
do a google on WWI & WWII for more info.
<edit> moron me. looks like your more sorted than i am...
Bah. Lack of an ability to delete posts sucks.
| QUOTE |
| As long as we're on the topic, what about custom melee weapons, like sword-chucks? |
Nuklear Power?
Sword chucks:
reach of double that of the sword type used. (1*2=2, 2*2=4, but 0*2 ~= 1)
damage is the same as that of the sword type
if you fail to connect for any reason, you must resist (sword damage)
if you connect and kill the enemy with one hit, you must resist (half sword damage)
if you connect and don't kill the enemy, you must resist (number of failed dice)L
reach of double that of the sword type used. (1*2=2, 2*2=4, but 0*2 ~= 1)
damage is the same as that of the sword type
if you fail to connect for any reason, you must resist (sword damage)
if you connect and kill the enemy with one hit, you must resist (half sword damage)
if you connect and don't kill the enemy, you must resist (number of failed dice)L
YOU CAN'T HOLD THE DAMM THINGS!
(Read NuklearPower.com)
(Read NuklearPower.com)
The chain is unsharpened.
Seidaku:
Believe it or not, what you propose is not a new idea.
The U.S. Navy experimented with such a concept in the 1830s.
The weapon was called the "Elgin cutlass pistol", and was made in Massachusetts.
It was a single-shot, .36-caliber percussion ("cap-and-ball") weapon with a Bowie-style knife blade mounted under the barrel--the blades were usually 6 to 10 inches in length, measured from the pistol's muzzle.
Some versions had a handguard like a traditional cutlass, designed to protect the fingers of the user's shooting hand if he were using a sword or other bladed weapon in his free hand.
The weapons were intended for use by U.S. Navy personnel, in close-combat situations--which, in that day, usually meant they would either be used to (a) repel boarders or (b) by members of a boarding party.
As most pistols in that day were single-shots (COL. Sam Colt didn't market his first commercially successful revolver, the so-called "Texas Paterson", until 1836, and it was made in very small numbers), the idea was to give the user a weapon with which to defend himself once the pistol barrel was discharged.
Here's a link to show you what an Elgin cutlass pistol looked like:
http://www.ken-drake.com/
This is just a suggestion, mind you, but I think what you're looking for would be a more modern (i.e., 2060s) interpretation-- perhaps a burst-fire pistol with a folding blade (a mono-wakizashi, maybe?) under the barrel, or something of the sort?
--Foreigner
Believe it or not, what you propose is not a new idea.
The U.S. Navy experimented with such a concept in the 1830s.
The weapon was called the "Elgin cutlass pistol", and was made in Massachusetts.
It was a single-shot, .36-caliber percussion ("cap-and-ball") weapon with a Bowie-style knife blade mounted under the barrel--the blades were usually 6 to 10 inches in length, measured from the pistol's muzzle.
Some versions had a handguard like a traditional cutlass, designed to protect the fingers of the user's shooting hand if he were using a sword or other bladed weapon in his free hand.
The weapons were intended for use by U.S. Navy personnel, in close-combat situations--which, in that day, usually meant they would either be used to (a) repel boarders or (b) by members of a boarding party.
As most pistols in that day were single-shots (COL. Sam Colt didn't market his first commercially successful revolver, the so-called "Texas Paterson", until 1836, and it was made in very small numbers), the idea was to give the user a weapon with which to defend himself once the pistol barrel was discharged.
Here's a link to show you what an Elgin cutlass pistol looked like:
http://www.ken-drake.com/
This is just a suggestion, mind you, but I think what you're looking for would be a more modern (i.e., 2060s) interpretation-- perhaps a burst-fire pistol with a folding blade (a mono-wakizashi, maybe?) under the barrel, or something of the sort?
--Foreigner
Hmm.. how does this sound, as a possible way of achieving the goal:
A top-mounted weapon accessory that adds something like -2 to concealability, but also allows the gun to be used in melee as a (STR)L edged weapon (reach 0)?
A top-mounted weapon accessory that adds something like -2 to concealability, but also allows the gun to be used in melee as a (STR)L edged weapon (reach 0)?
Genius! We could call it.... a bayonet!
Sword gun, eh? Didn't Final Fantasy VIII do this first?
I haven't played the game, but always wondered what the hell was up with this weapon...
I haven't played the game, but always wondered what the hell was up with this weapon...
The popularization is mostly due to FF8, but the premise was originally from the days of muzzle loaded weapons.
When you were in a combat zone and could only get one shot off, you could either drop the now useless gun or alter the design so it has a melee use.
I've also seen pistol-hammers and pistol-axes where the barrel of the gun served as the handle of the axe/hammer.
When you were in a combat zone and could only get one shot off, you could either drop the now useless gun or alter the design so it has a melee use.
I've also seen pistol-hammers and pistol-axes where the barrel of the gun served as the handle of the axe/hammer.
You can also try Lazamataz's Hell Glock.
Is that a mock up, or just a bunch of photos stuck together?
Photoediting. And really bad quality. Looks almost as ridiculous as anime-style gunblades.
Thought so.
But it is one of the best 9mm, 50 caliber, 12 gauge art pieces in its class.
Correction: only
Now I want to see a real 9mm, .50 cal, 12 gauge pistol.
And yes, it is possible. Quite possible, in fact; I'll leave it up to you to figure out how.
~J
And yes, it is possible. Quite possible, in fact; I'll leave it up to you to figure out how.
~J
Having 3 barrels would make the controls interesting. Would all three shoot every time you pull the trigger, or would each have a different trigger?
Maybe they'd have a switch. Or possibly an electronic system to randomize which barrel would fire, that'd be in keeping with the whole affair.
~J
~J
| QUOTE (Adarael) |
| I'm with gknoy... Most 'pirate boarding daggers' as they were called didn't have a knife grip, but a pistol grip, for more accurate shooting. Why a pistol grip? Because a lot of Epees, Rapiers and the like already used bent-grip handles. Granted, until very late in the history of them, they were pretty crappy and prone to breaking. That wouldn't be the case in 2060, though, what with using refined metals and non-flintlock actions. <G> |
No way man. If you are talking about a pistol/dagger combo, then yes perhaps. But this is not what we are talking about - we are talking about a pistol/SWORD combo
Do you have any idea how unbalanced this would be? It's hard enough firing a pistol normally - usually a two-handed firing stance is required to use it with any accuracy. I shudder to think of trying to fire a pistol with a 10 lb sword hanging off the front of the barrel. Not to even mention using it in an actual combat where you are running around and firing it at targets of opportunity. A +2 target number is very generous - I would set it at least +3.
I am sorry - I know this is a fantasy game, but I have always thought that the firearms aspect of Shadowrun was grounded in at least a little bit of reality. A sword/pistol that gives no penalty to the user is pretty ridiculous. Yes there is historical prescedence for this concept but they were pretty rare. Why? Because in actual battle situations, they sucked balls - for the reasons that I mentioned. It was used more as a gimmick weapon to surprise the enemy rather than for actual accuracy
If you are absolutely married to this idea, I have two suggestions. 1) loading a flechette shotgun round into the barrel. So you really don't need to aim. Or 2) using it like a rifle rather than a pistol - like that big octopus guy from Farscape. He had a sword that became a rifle when he switched modes
I think that it would probably be used to surprise your opponent in melee, to distract them and knock them off balance for your next attack; rather than as a dedicated long-range weapon.
Mike the Fish, your statement of how much a sword would weigh is wildly overestimated.
~J
~J
Given the modern materials available, you are probably right.
However light the weapon would be, the center of gravity is still going to be WAAAY off. It's certainly not going to be near the handle, which is where it should be to have an accurate pistol. You will still have like 3 feet of mass projecting out from the barrel of the pistol that will be screwing up your aim.
However light the weapon would be, the center of gravity is still going to be WAAAY off. It's certainly not going to be near the handle, which is where it should be to have an accurate pistol. You will still have like 3 feet of mass projecting out from the barrel of the pistol that will be screwing up your aim.
That as well, but I suppose that depends on the sword.
You're absolutely correct that it'd screw up the balance, but even without "modern materials", ten-pound swords would just make fighting impossible. Hell, I'd be surprised if even warhammers hit ten or more pounds. You try swinging that around for a while; I'm sure you'll figure out why that number is absurd.
~J
~J
As I stated - yes you are right. Swords aren't made from metal anymore, so I am sure it would be pretty light. So I am not sure why you are reitterating this point.
MY point is that I don't care if it weighed 1 pound. You are not going to be able to aim it effectively for the reasons that I stated.
MY point is that I don't care if it weighed 1 pound. You are not going to be able to aim it effectively for the reasons that I stated.
I was restating because you seem to be implying that swords were ever of that weight. The fact that we may now have more modern materials is irrelevant, swords were never that heavy. Not when they were made of steel, not iron, and not bronze.
Balance issues could be ameliorated with a weighted stock, but it'd still be horrifically badly balanced. Maybe +3, knocked down to +2 with aforementioned stock? Hm. Getting more complicated than it's worth, here...
~J
Balance issues could be ameliorated with a weighted stock, but it'd still be horrifically badly balanced. Maybe +3, knocked down to +2 with aforementioned stock? Hm. Getting more complicated than it's worth, here...
~J
Lead + light alloys/compounds = center of balance wherever you want it (within basic reason). This adds some weight, probably more than the "barrel weight" mod.
Use of monowire = virtually weightless "blade" portion. The addition weighs only as much as the bar that holds the end of the wire. This could also be easily made retractable.
Use of monowire = virtually weightless "blade" portion. The addition weighs only as much as the bar that holds the end of the wire. This could also be easily made retractable.
| QUOTE (Kagetenshi) |
| Hm. Getting more complicated than it's worth, here... ~J |
Yes
I'll actually try and tackle this idea using... dum... Dumm. DUMMM.... CC firearm rules.
first off, why have it be a pistol sword? why not have the barrel run the length of the sword, or run through a double edged sword? using this, we could go with.
Sport Rifle
Single Shot more than likely.
Heavy Barrel(obviously)
Melee Hardening(very obviously)
underbarrel weapon(use grenade launcher weight added to a "bayonet" that takes up entirety of underside)
remove the stock.
there you have a sport rifle, with a heavy barrel with underbarrel weapon(sword) and melee hardening. removed the stock should conceal the weapon nicely, and possibly making it breech load would add to the realism to a one shot sword/gun, however, if looking for multishot I don't see why it wouldn't be possible.
first off, why have it be a pistol sword? why not have the barrel run the length of the sword, or run through a double edged sword? using this, we could go with.
Sport Rifle
Single Shot more than likely.
Heavy Barrel(obviously)
Melee Hardening(very obviously)
underbarrel weapon(use grenade launcher weight added to a "bayonet" that takes up entirety of underside)
remove the stock.
there you have a sport rifle, with a heavy barrel with underbarrel weapon(sword) and melee hardening. removed the stock should conceal the weapon nicely, and possibly making it breech load would add to the realism to a one shot sword/gun, however, if looking for multishot I don't see why it wouldn't be possible.
| QUOTE (ShadowPhoenix) |
| I'll actually try and tackle this idea using... dum... Dumm. DUMMM.... CC firearm rules. first off, why have it be a pistol sword? why not have the barrel run the length of the sword, or run through a double edged sword? |
Because the weapon in question looks like this.
That image shows something very different from what most of the discussion has been about. That would be a pistol with barrel reduction and a huge sword edge sticking out the top.
No sights, minimized barrel, melee hardened, no top or barrel mouted accessories. Calculate that. Add in one sword. Throw in an extra 100
and then round up to a nice round number.
No sights, minimized barrel, melee hardened, no top or barrel mouted accessories. Calculate that. Add in one sword. Throw in an extra 100
and then round up to a nice round number.
| QUOTE |
| However light the weapon would be, the center of gravity is still going to be WAAAY off. It's certainly not going to be near the handle, which is where it should be to have an accurate pistol. |
Um, center of mass for most (European style, at least) combat-ready swords is towards the handle. It's a question of maneuverability.
I don't know about you, but I've handled swords more than ten pounds. Nothing I'd want to take up against a person, they were all made to de-leg horses, but they were more than ten pounds.
Not alot more... but more.
Tank god the balance was fairly pretty.
| QUOTE (Large Mike) |
| Tank god |
Which pantheon is that one in? I know a D&D group that needs a combat cleric.
| QUOTE (TheScamp) |
| Um, center of mass for most (European style, at least) combat-ready swords is towards the handle. It's a question of maneuverability. |
Even if it it towards the handle, it's not actually IN the handle. Unless we are talking about a foil or rapier or something (which we are not).
I am sorry, but there is no way a Ares Monosword or whatever can be made into a pistol that wouldn't have some serious targetting penalties. Just aint gonna happen.
| QUOTE (ShadowPhoenix) |
| I'll actually try and tackle this idea using... dum... Dumm. DUMMM.... CC firearm rules. first off, why have it be a pistol sword? why not have the barrel run the length of the sword, or run through a double edged sword? using this, we could go with. Sport Rifle Single Shot more than likely. Heavy Barrel(obviously) Melee Hardening(very obviously) underbarrel weapon(use grenade launcher weight added to a "bayonet" that takes up entirety of underside) remove the stock. there you have a sport rifle, with a heavy barrel with underbarrel weapon(sword) and melee hardening. removed the stock should conceal the weapon nicely, and possibly making it breech load would add to the realism to a one shot sword/gun, however, if looking for multishot I don't see why it wouldn't be possible. |
Actually I disagree with your assessment. It is NOT a sporting rifle. A sporting rifle has a stock, and is held with two hands securely braced against one's shoulder.
What was being discussed is a pistol with a ridiculously long "barrel" extending out from the front. No stock, and if you did hold it with two hands, it would have to be at the hilt - wich would drastically reduce it's accuracy.
For an example watch the original Batman movie. Remember the pistol that the Joker pulls out of his pants and shoots the Batjet with? That is what we are talking about. Watch how hard it is for Nicholson to even keep the barrel steady, much less actually aim it at something. In the movie he shoots the jet of course, which pretty damn lame, but that's Hollywood for you.
Guess that's the crux of this argument. If you want to run a cinematic Hollywood style game, then yeah the pistol/sword works fine. If you want to run a game where the laws of physics actually resemble planet Earth, then penalties must be applied. Both versions are cool - just have to set up what you want for your own campaign.
| QUOTE (Large Mike) |
| I don't know about you, but I've handled swords more than ten pounds. Nothing I'd want to take up against a person, they were all made to de-leg horses, but they were more than ten pounds. |
Really? What kind of swords? I thought even claymores usually were under ten.
Then again, there have been some ceremonial swords that would top it easily, like the ten-or-so-foot-tall swords on display in the Tower of London. Really closer to banners than swords, though...
~J
Wow, just checked out the actual pic of the weapon the poster wants to recreate. Different than what I thought, but still awkward as hell.
All that top-weight would make it difficult to aim properly, especially in the heat of battle. And with so much weight projecting up from your hand, the effects of recoil are going to be drastically increased. Fire a shot and watch the damn thing wobble and waver around in your hand all over the place. Especially with the actual pistol part being so small and stubby.
But hey, do what you want (shrug)
All that top-weight would make it difficult to aim properly, especially in the heat of battle. And with so much weight projecting up from your hand, the effects of recoil are going to be drastically increased. Fire a shot and watch the damn thing wobble and waver around in your hand all over the place. Especially with the actual pistol part being so small and stubby.
But hey, do what you want (shrug)
| QUOTE |
| Really? What kind of swords? I thought even claymores usually were under ten. |
Try under 5lbs. Even the big honking 5+foot flamberges were only slightly more than 6lbs. Anything 10lbs or more is likely either ceremonial, or a non-combat replica.
| QUOTE |
| Even if it it towards the handle, it's not actually IN the handle. Unless we are talking about a foil or rapier or something (which we are not). |
Actually, we're talking a COB right around the crossguard.
While I agree that there should be some penalties, I think that your depiction of a sword's weight characteristics are flawed.
Interesting, for some reason I'd had six pounds as my idea of a proper claymore weight. Thanks for correcting that.
~J
~J
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