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Pepsi Jedi
Just off the top of my head..

Small drone. goes in and attaches itself to the hull via some sort of glue. (( not magnetic because that could be detected)) or actual mechanical attachment (( grabs hold with little drone hands or some shit)) Sits there and lets the sub pull it around. Some of it's programing allows it to be smart enough to detach and 'hide' if someone comes out in scuba gear to go over the hull. It's not like Subs jump up out of the water to be visually inspected. They would of course be specifically designed not to add drag to the sub or change the aquatic acoustic fingerprint of the sub.

Other than that. They could attach themselves via a grapple to the sub some how and be towed. (( much like towed sonar bouies are)) or any of a half dozen other ways.

Subs just aren't that fast. They don't go tooling around like the Seaquest. (( whom I might point out had it's own drones. lol "Whiskers')) I mean if I can come up with a couple ways for it to work in a few seconds thinking about your post, how many ways would real military scientists get to do it with some dedicated thinking and implementation?
Manunancy
On teh sub's end you can have a shoal of drone inspectign the hull at every stop or even making a pass around. Or one can design a nanotech-laced hull coating that will destro any unwanted crap attaching istelf to the hull. Sure you can pay scientists to devise new and improved ways to find the subs but what's to prevent you from spending the same sort of cash to find ways to defeat those new toys ? There's no reason why the guy designing the cuirass would be any dumber than the one designing the sword.

Play that game of counter-counter-counter-measures for long enough and you'll end up jacking the cost into absurdity. Most corps will toss the towel way before that, especially for systems they have no real use for.

One comment about nuclear propulsion and speed : even if the sub moves slowly when it's on station, nuclear power means the sub can move from station to station fast (up to 25 knots for modern subs), sustaining that speed 24/24 and 7/7 wihtout worrying about fuel. That sort of strategic mobility isn't easy to match, even if at those speeeds a sub is definitevely noisy..
Pepsi Jedi
QUOTE (Manunancy @ Mar 23 2011, 11:20 PM) *
On teh sub's end you can have a shoal of drone inspectign the hull at every stop or even making a pass around. Or one can design a nanotech-laced hull coating that will destro any unwanted crap attaching istelf to the hull. Sure you can pay scientists to devise new and improved ways to find the subs but what's to prevent you from spending the same sort of cash to find ways to defeat those new toys ? There's no reason why the guy designing the cuirass would be any dumber than the one designing the sword.

Play that game of counter-counter-counter-measures for long enough and you'll end up jacking the cost into absurdity. Most corps will toss the towel way before that, especially for systems they have no real use for.

One comment about nuclear propulsion and speed : even if th sub moves slowly when it's on station, nyclear power means the sub can move from station to station fast 'up to 25 knots for modern subs), sustaining that speed 24/24 and 7/7 wihtout worrting about fuel. That sort of strategic mobility isn't easy to match, even if at those speeeds a sub is definitevely noisy..



The first half of your post is my exact point. For every sneaky thing they develop they come up with a counter. and sure a sub can PLOW through the water if it trys but that cuts out all tactical advantage of being a sub. And they can't go flank speed indefinably, the engines and what not aren't built for it.

But yes. The point is, that it's cost prohibitive for little return on investment. In the day's of thor rounds and what not wouldn't that just be easier?
hyzmarca
QUOTE (sabs @ Mar 21 2011, 11:55 AM) *
The Entire Eastern Seaboard is FUCKED. How big was the explosion, how wide is the Radiation fall out. Luckily most crap flows North in Eastern US, so Quebec is going to be taking it up the tail pipe.


If you're targeting population centers then you're using an airburst. Airbursts don't dig up huge craters and thus they don't throw out much radioactive materials.

Ground detonations are only used for bunkers and missile silos, as they're extremely inefficient. And it's ground detonations that cause fallout by throwing up clouds of radioactive dirt.

Boston is fucked. Exactly how much depends on where the nuke detonated exactly. There is a fairly large margin there. ICBMs are not precision weapons (which is one of the reasons why you need many tens of thousands of them if you want to seriously fight a nuclear war).

Dahrken
To Kzt : The missile signatures can prove that they are an S-K model, but this not prove they have been fired by S-K. Considering the development cost of those beasts I find extremely unlikely they are the only users of the design. If a guy is shot dead with an Alpha, does it make Ares the perpetrator ?

A lot of pointed questionning and accusations punctuated by a lot of sabre rattling is likely to arise, but not instant and outright "go for the throat" aggression. S-K is probably a major actor on Boston's stock market (like all the other AAA) and would shoot itself in the foot by nuking the city, and both the launch pattern and the follow-up actions by S-K are not consistent with a preemptive attack of any sort, suggesting some terror plot using captured/stolen S-K hardware rather than an S-K plot.

This obviously would be a major setback for S-K, they would have to finance most of the clean-up and reconstruction and pay hefty compensations, but I don't think this would result in an Omega order on them.

If Ares reacted as swiftly and violently as Kzt suggested, IMHO the others megas would be more likely to stand and watch the fight, then gang on the weakened survivor, than to back up one of them...

An again, if a private actor like Ares (even considering it's ties into the UCAS government) feels the need and is able to pinpoint the location and ownership of each and every single nuclear submarine on the planet real-time, this simply means that the technology is obsolete and Lofwyr is unlikely to invest into it for S-K use, negating the whole scenario from the start.
kzt
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Mar 23 2011, 10:07 PM) *
Boston is fucked. Exactly how much depends on where the nuke detonated exactly. There is a fairly large margin there. ICBMs are not precision weapons (which is one of the reasons why you need many tens of thousands of them if you want to seriously fight a nuclear war).

On inertial a D5 warhead requirement was a CEP of 90-120 meter, actual demonstrated accuracy is supposed to significantly better. Using GPS a warhead is good for about +- 5 meters. And close does count with h-bombs.
RainOfSteel
QUOTE (Loch @ Mar 19 2011, 04:01 AM) *
So what, hypothetically, might happen if 6th world Boston got hit with a ballistic missile? I ask because an, erm, friend of mine might have had this come up in a game session the other day and he's not quite sure what the global fallout (no pun intended biggrin.gif) should be.
Most responses seem to be based on the political ramifications and retaliation. If you're interested in what happened to Boston itself, then:

The Effects of Nuclear Weapons
Manunancy
The Fallout manual also includes a good descritpion of effects, smilar to a compact version of tha post, along with destruction radii for different powers of weapons.
Dahrken
HERE IS A LINK to the Fallout manual.
kzt
QUOTE (RainOfSteel @ Mar 24 2011, 10:27 AM) *
Most responses seem to be based on the political ramifications and retaliation. If you're interested in what happened to Boston itself, then:

The Effects of Nuclear Weapons

Choose an aimpoint, choose a warhead yield, and draw a series of concentric circles.
Ogrebear
My thoughts on this are given the OP said the nukes went off that S-K could have played the 'our sub has been seized' card and gone to the CC and warned the other Corps even as the missiles was in the air. They throw spirits, drones etc at it, along with the other Megas but somehow one gets through and Boston goes Boom! Now if its a ICBM and a multiwarhead one perhaps the Runners/Mega's efforts got all but a warhead or two and thus the damage is hideous but not as total as a full load of an ICBM would have landed.

Given 'they tried' S-K then comes off much better than if the truth comes out later. They can spin to the CC that 'terrorists' seized their facility. Its not unheard of on SR Earth going back to the Long Eagle incident through to Winternight. I would not be surprised if S-K did not offer the Runners up as their sacrifice to the media/CC.

S-K survives this intact, if not in fact a little ahead if they finance the rebuilding of Boston on their own lines/terms. Very unlikely the other Mega's can do much about it if Scaly spins it right.
Pepsi Jedi
Very unlikely they can do much about it? If you launch a nuke and take out one of the biggest cities in the UCAS and one of the oldest cities in the country and one of the ones with the most history and a few million people. "Oops our bad. We tried" isn't going to do ANYTHING To slow down the CC.

Part of 'having nukes' is the responsibility that comes with them. If you can't insure beyond a shadowof a doubt that there's no way, no possible WAY for someone to just take one and take out Boston then you shouldn't have them. If you DO have them and you ---allow--- them to be taken and used against a civilian target.... whoooo.

No way Ogrebear.. They're toast. Even in the jaded world of Shadowrun and 2072 if you NUKE Boston... you're buggered but good. There's pretty much no excuse on how/why that's going to slow people down.

Remember SK is on top. it behooves the other members of the CC to take them down. It's pure win for them. EVERYONE is going to want a bite of that pie when it's put on the table and that Omega order comes down. When they go after SK they're going to do it with a giggle and a smile and they're going to TAKE as much as they can as SK is ripped up.



BUT


I STILL


Reiterate

The Golden Wyrm is not that stupid. He would not have nukes that could be taken from him and used against him in such a manner with out havint 471 different ways to stop them before impact. He's presented as levels of magnitude smarter than people in Shadowrun. He's many levels smarter than your average RP'er. He's thought this crap out. If he HAS nukes. _____HE______ Controls them. Not the people on the boat.
CanRay
Wouldn't he just shot-put the nukes from Germany? I mean, he is a Great Dragon! Just throw them up, levitate them until the Gaiasphere runs out, and it comes down in a ballistic arc. Wouldn't even need rockets.

Put in some steering fins and an optical sensor in the nose to direct them, and it's even a smart munition. nyahnyah.gif
Nath
QUOTE (Pepsi Jedi @ Mar 26 2011, 04:03 PM) *
Very unlikely they can do much about it? If you launch a nuke and take out one of the biggest cities in the UCAS and one of the oldest cities in the country and one of the ones with the most history and a few million people. "Oops our bad. We tried" isn't going to do ANYTHING To slow down the CC.

Part of 'having nukes' is the responsibility that comes with them. If you can't insure beyond a shadowof a doubt that there's no way, no possible WAY for someone to just take one and take out Boston then you shouldn't have them. If you DO have them and you ---allow--- them to be taken and used against a civilian target.... whoooo.

No way Ogrebear.. They're toast. Even in the jaded world of Shadowrun and 2072 if you NUKE Boston... you're buggered but good. There's pretty much no excuse on how/why that's going to slow people down.

Remember SK is on top. it behooves the other members of the CC to take them down. It's pure win for them. EVERYONE is going to want a bite of that pie when it's put on the table and that Omega order comes down. When they go after SK they're going to do it with a giggle and a smile and they're going to TAKE as much as they can as SK is ripped up.
One thing is bugging me here. The very basis of the story is that Saeder-Krupp has nukes. So, when confronted with an Omega Order and the military forces of all the other prime megacorporations, what Saeder-Krupp is going to do with all the others nukes it has if they're toast ?

There was an expression coined for that : Mutual Assured Destruction.


Pepsi Jedi
That's just the thing. Having nukes and USING them are far different. You have nukes to keep others from using nukes on you. Even in war you don't jump straight to nukes. Conceivably if the triple A's have nuclear capibile weapons delivery platforms (( like boomers)) they keep an eye on the other's boomers. If one launches and destroys Boston the CC Meets, in emergency and the order comes down from Orbital. Then the other 9 act almost instantly based on their contengancy plans for.. "If one dumb ass corp launches a nuke that takes out boston" and the one dumb ass corp that did it isn't hit slowly with an attack here or there but with 9 mega corps all moving with ill intent and free hand.

If they try and fire off more nukes, the other 9 are watching and ready and the intercepts.

If you didn't PURPOSEFULLY Launch a nuke to take out Boston, you're not just going to go "Aww frak it. Launch the rest of them. might as well destroy the world if they're coming for us."
Ascalaphus
Instant massive retaliation is such a bad idea.

- What if you have a miscommunication and think the enemy attacked? If you don't wait to confirm that it really is war, you might start the war yourself.
- Or what if enemy A is framed by enemy B? If you launch before checking, then you and enemy A might be nuking it out all for enemy B's benefit.
- What if it's really just one nuke, by accident? Is that really worth burning down the world?

If global nuclear war starts, then the corporations lose everything. After a global thermonuclear war, there won't be any economy anymore. Nuyen has lost all meaning.

You can't actually win a nuclear war; in a nuclear war, everyone loses. The purpose of nukes is to make sure nobody can take you out without going down himself too.

You can't gamble that you'll be able to intercept "acceptable" amounts of enemy missiles. If even 5 modern nukes get through on say Japan, that would annihilate Renraku, Shiawase and MCT - both their own holdings and most of their market. They're not willing to risk that.
CanRay
They'll have to switch from the Nuyen to the Bottlecap. nyahnyah.gif
kzt
QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Mar 26 2011, 09:29 AM) *
You can't gamble that you'll be able to intercept "acceptable" amounts of enemy missiles. If even 5 modern nukes get through on say Japan, that would annihilate Renraku, Shiawase and MCT - both their own holdings and most of their market. They're not willing to risk that.

The threat is why preemption exists. Once someone shows they are an active deadly threat you kill them. You don't talk to them, except as part of tactical maneuver. And the Japaneses are the ones with dozens of tens of thousand of ton solar power satellites that beam gigawatts of power down via microwaves. You can deliver that same power in other forms, say at a much shorter frequency with a much higher degree of collimation. And gigawatt scale beam lasers can do other things than swatting missiles out of the air.
hyzmarca
QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Mar 26 2011, 11:29 AM) *
You can't gamble that you'll be able to intercept "acceptable" amounts of enemy missiles. If even 5 modern nukes get through on say Japan, that would annihilate Renraku, Shiawase and MCT - both their own holdings and most of their market. They're not willing to risk that.


You wouldn't get all their assets, not even close. Not with so few weapons and certainly not limiting attacks to one country. Remember, AAAs operate globally.

Also remember that nukes obey both the the cube root law and the inverse square law. Apparently, a city such as London or Tokyo would survive a nuking mostly intact, unless hit multiple times.

Nath
QUOTE (hyzmarca @ Mar 26 2011, 10:43 PM) *
You wouldn't get all their assets, not even close. Not with so few weapons and certainly not limiting attacks to one country. Remember, AAAs operate globally.

Any way, an Omega Order is never going to result into a simultaneous global strike against all the targeted corporation assets at once. Assuming the Corporate Court does some planning for such operation, they will first "cordon off" the area to limit the amount of damage on the economy (like, closing stock markets and having the major financial players withdrawing their money before the bust), then strike the security and military assets, and it is only the last stage to destroy and seize other valuable assets to effectively enforce the penalty. Operation Reciprocity (which was or wasn't an Omega Order, depending on whom you ask) actually did not go much past the second phase. The only final target was a military complex in Ensenada.
Compare to the ongoing operations in Libya : they did not try to enforce a no-fly zone before actually blowing up the ground air defenses.

When the objective is to destroy valuable assets, nuclear weapons certainly are an overkill. However, they also have a sub-strategic and tactical value that may comes in hand during the second phase. If the targeted corporation has ICBM silos, an aircraft carrier group at sea, or an underground bunker full of magicians, nuke is an option. It is not the only one available, but it is nonetheless an option.

But that's from the attackers point of view. MAD works well to prevent the use of nukes as a first strike weapon. The real risk is nuclear escalation when one side is on the brink of losing. Get a few armored divisions within a click of Moscow, Pyongyang, Jerusalem or any capital of a country with nukes, and see what happens. A full-fledged Omega Order against a corporation is just the same : you give them the promise of a total dismantlement of the corporation no matter what they do (plus, in our case, probably standing trial for the Boston attack). Oh, the guy in charge or the soldier with the button may decide to be a hero and save the world. Or not. The question is, would you give it a try ? The question is, would you give it a try with Lofwyr ?

The reason behind the veto right at the UN Security Council is that any attempt to effectively punish US, USSR, China, Great Britain or France would result in a huge devastation (it worth noting that was before most of them actually had nukes, while GB and France still had their colonial empires). The Corporate Court has no such provision to avoid this. It doesn't mean they're dumb enough to try it.
All the prime megacorporations would love to destroy a competitor. If all they really needed was an excuse, they would have done it a long time ago. The Corporate Court role is not to punish bad deeds, it is to maintain a good business environment and keep the nuyen flowing. Operation Reciprocity goal never was to punish Aztechnology for supporting nationalization in Aztlan (you f'in human-sacrificing Horrors-aligned communists !). It was to have them stopping the nationalization.

So, Boston downtown is history. Trying to destroy Saeder-Krupp is not going to help or bring it back. And just attempting to get that may result in a disaster. Asking them to repay for the destruction, and relinquish their nuclear weapons, sounds more reasonable. Launch a few surgical strikes if they refuse to comply, and ban countries and megacorporations to have business with them. It may still result in a total war if Lowfyr is in a bad mood. But unless he was already looking for an excuse to go at war, chances are he will accept.
Pepsi Jedi
While that was a very nicely thought out and very well articulated post, it rules out the fact that SK just nuked a major city of a soviergn country. There's going to be more than just "pay a fine" which is bascily what yours comes to. "Pay a fine or get spanked"

the UCAS could revoke the extraterritoriality of the corp or just open up in global war as they were attacked with Nuclear weapons. If China nuked Boston and went "oops our bad" we're not just going to go 'No worries. Toss us 2.5 trillion and we'll call it even." There's going to be reactive action. Not only by the country that was attacked with nukes but all their allies and their allies allies.

Your post was very nicely put but it's leaving out the part where someone ----NUKED----- Boston and killed millions of people.

Look at what happened when 3,000 people died in 9-11.

Now imagine ___nuking___ Boston.

There's going to be alot more than a fine and paid reparations.
Ogrebear
Thing is... yes part of Boston got nuked. Yes lots of people will die. Yes lots of history was wiped. Yes there are annoyed UCAS politicans and public.

And?

The CC and the Megas are not going to order the destruction of S-K - its would be a very hard task, a very painful one and the gains are probably not worth it to them given the balance of loss of life, biz and having a dragon frakked off at them. Lofwyr knows a lot of secrets, knows a lot of magic and knows a lot of Shadowrunners and other assets he can put into play the second someone even suggests an Omega Order. Heck if they did try it odds are it would spark a global Megacorp war not just 'Them vs S-K' - Lofwyr knows how to handle situations so its everyone vs everyone.

Also I simply cannot see the CC acting without finding out what exactly happened and verifying that it was indeed S-K's missiles, and indeed S-K did or did not intend to declare war. Once it comes down to an investigation and talking S-K and Lofwyr will get out of any sort of attempt to close them down. I suspect there will be lots of opportunities for Shadow strikes at S-K assets assessing their defences or stealing their stuff ahead of any final CC decision.

Remember one thing about SR; terrorists (Sears Tower), Shadowrunners, rouge AI (Stock Market crash) etc all routinely take over assets not belonging to them and use them to cause harm- yes the outcome is bigger than normal here, but there is total president for S-K to turn around and say 'we lost control' and get away with it.
Pepsi Jedi
You're failing to see the base point of the equasion. Your "And?" Pretty much sums it up as much as "Yes there are annoyed UCAS politicans and public"

Annoyed?

If one of their largest Citys and stock market was NUKED? lol "Annoyed"?

Sorry but we're just not talking about the same universe. if nuking a major city only makes some people a little annoyed... then your game is wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy different than mine and way different from anything resembling realistic response to such an occurrence. (( and yes. it's a game with dragons and elves, but there's also the presumption that there's logic and nations react as nations would and all))

My suspension of disbeleife doesn't extend to 'Oh .. we're very annoyed with you, Mr Naughty Dragon. Don't nuke our cities... and you have to rebuild what you burned up and irradiated... and we'll just shove the few million people you killed under the rug and call a mulligan"
kzt
At the very least it's likely hit a record high temperature in Essen. Hope you wore you SPF 25,000 sunblock.
Ascalaphus
The UCAS could go to war, but then the most likely result is that the rest of the UCAS gets nuked too.

Notice how no country with nukes was ever attacked in open war by another country with nukes? Compare Iraq to North Korea. Attacking NK is out of the question because they could nuke Japan in retaliation, and everyone knows the regime is crazy enough to do it.

So what other options does the UCAS have? Demand reparations, demand the "dismantling of S-K's nuclear arsenal", demand that heads roll in S-K upper management. They could get that. But destroying S-K isn't an option.

---

Anyway, I vaguely remember that the CC members actually have veto power. Operation Reciprocity took a loooong time to plan because they had to do all kinds of maneuvering to get around Aztechnology's back. And S-K is a lot better at that kind of thing: it'd be very hard to do any kind of "by the books" job.

So if the CC ordered an Omega Order, they'd also be violating their own dearest principle: that the permanent members are invulnerable. They probably expect Zurich Orbital to be rigged to explode if they vote to attack S-K, too.

Look at how Lofwyr seemed to be one step ahead of everyone during Crash 2.0. Of course Lofwyr has a plan just in case the other AAA's ever turn on S-K. Dare they really find out?

Lofwyr is the kind of dragon who would probably burn down the entire world if someone tried to take him down. And given the time and resources he's had, it's totally certain he can. We'd be talking worldwide VITAS-6 epidemics, nukes on oceanic fault-lines that do go off as planned to wash away everything on every coast, the Matrix destroyed, satellites dropping down. Doppelgangers in every major corporation, sleeper agents becoming active. Nukes turning on their owners, astral rifts to let in the Shedims' bigger brothers, perhaps asteroids on a collision course. Enough overkill that nothing would remain for the AAA's to look at and even pretend it was anything other than total defeat.

I don't think the CC would stand by and let the UCAS do something as stupid as engaging S-K.
Nath
QUOTE (Pepsi Jedi @ Mar 27 2011, 01:51 AM) *
While that was a very nicely thought out and very well articulated post, it rules out the fact that SK just nuked a major city of a soviergn country. There's going to be more than just "pay a fine" which is bascily what yours comes to. "Pay a fine or get spanked"

the UCAS could revoke the extraterritoriality of the corp or just open up in global war as they were attacked with Nuclear weapons. If China nuked Boston and went "oops our bad" we're not just going to go 'No worries. Toss us 2.5 trillion and we'll call it even." There's going to be reactive action. Not only by the country that was attacked with nukes but all their allies and their allies allies.

Your post was very nicely put but it's leaving out the part where someone ----NUKED----- Boston and killed millions of people.

Look at what happened when 3,000 people died in 9-11.

Now imagine ___nuking___ Boston.

There's going to be alot more than a fine and paid reparations.
The US government is not crazy enough to kill 30'000 people at random because 3'000 US citizens were killed. They're hunting for a precise list of people with a connection to the terrorist action. Those who stands in the way of US forces (read: Taleban fighter) will be killed, as part of military operations. I think if Al Qaeda detonated a nuke in New York instead, they're would just be more targets on the list (like, Pakistani intelligence officers or Saudi businessmen). No random killing. The truth is, they could actually only kill one specific guy (name start with a O and ends with a A) and the public opinion would consider they settled the score.

If China nuke an US city with a single strike (without starting a MAD scenario) the US would not bomb Chinese citie at random to kill as many Chinese men as possible. The war objectives would be clearly defined, to depose the Chinese government and hunt for the officials and military commanders involved in the strike. China itself, just like Germany, Japan, Afghanistan, Iraq... would quickly return to be an independent nation.

If a Saeder-Krupp nuke destroys Fenway Park, I would expect a similar scenario. The UCAS would ask a number of Saeder-Krupp executives to be handed for trial. If Saeder-Krupp refuses to hand them all (quite likely if Lofwyr is on the list), then the UCAS, as they really angered, would not wait to see if economical sanctions work, and directly initiate operation to kill or abduct those people, wherever they are. They are not going to bomb civilian power plants throughout Europe to make the point (unless they suspect one of their target is hiding there). No way those operations are going to disrupt the bulk of Saeder-Krupp activities. Saeder-Krupp is a megacorporation ; people can be replaced.

Full Omega Order, that is, unlimited military strikes against all Saeder-Krupp assets, is basically putting economical sanctions on a fast track. The targeted corporation is going to lose money fast. However, I think it should remain limited in scope. You can't bomb all S-K owned power plants in Germany without causing huge damages to the economy and several other corporations in the country.

The key problem is putting Lofwyr on the wanted list. He is the single shareholder of Saeder-Krupp. He has sovereign power on the corporation. The problem is, the UCAS want him dead. He's not going to care about losing money. Economical sanctions and destruction of S-K assets, while heavily damaging the world economy, is not going to really help catching or killing him. Even if he no longer have underground bunkers or elite bodyguards (compare to Saddam Hussein), he will still be a two hundred centuries old dragon (my guess is that Alamais would gladly offer to help the Pentagon...).

Remove Lofwyr from the list, and the thing will be settled within two weeks, with a Saeder-Krupp airplane full of company executives landing in Andrews AFB. To me, that's by far the most likely outcome. Otherwise, I would expect the Corporate Court and Zurich-Orbital Gemeinshaft Bank to find a legal ground to seize Lofwyr assets (even if he's not dead). And then you may have a slow and careful process of dismantling the Saeder-Krupp group, selling it bit by bit to other megacorporations.
Manunancy
I didn't think about Aztechnology's bout of Omega Order, but I think it's a clear proof that none of the AAA, not even Ares, keeps enough military assest to instakill one of it's rivals. If Ares had such a capability, I'd think they would have seized the occasion to get rid of Aztechnology sicne on this occasion they would have enjoyed the Corporate's Court blessing (though maybe the aftermath would have been on the tense side, with every other Mega wondering why he heck Ares felt the need to build that sort of hitting power).

The reactions were slow enough that Aztechnology mnaged to grovel it's way into an accomodation to have the Order rescinded. With a Lofwyr at the helm and a far better starting repute, I'd be very surprised if SK couldn't manage something of the sort.

Simply put, keeping an armageddon cock ticking takes a lot of ressources, resources that none of the AAA can spend while retaining their edge. What they wil definiteively keep up and running is intelligence assets, to figure major threats aimed their ways before they solidify, at a stage where removing them isn't insanely expensive.

It's also why there's a corporate court : if contracts between the AAA were valid only as far as the range of the guns backing them, the AAA would waste huge piles of cash in military assets, contract enforcers and the like. Sure the CC will sometime vote against them, but it's far cheaper than having a complete dog-at-dog, nothing's binding but raw power competition. The vout isn't ther efor law or justice but to keep the economic battlefield neat and ordered enough that the actors can focus more on making money than watching their backs, letting them make more money.
Pepsi Jedi
You people are cracking me up. Honestly it's like none of you were alive 10 years ago. When those planes flew into the twin towers America freaked out. We lost roughly 3 thousand people and 10 buildings or so. If someone nuked boston, one of the biggest sprawls in the UCAS the resulting responce would be many orders of magnitude larger. You're acting like it's no big deal. Round up some board members and impose sanctions.

They ----Nuked---- a city. lol You're totally detached from the millions of people that would be dead. We're not talking a Japanese city in the 50s here. We're talking about the Boston sprawl with an ICBM. Millions of people would be dead. The UCAS Stock market would be destroied. Trillions of dollars in damage would be done. ----Every---- Megacorp on the list would lose billions and billions in physical assets just from the onsite damage. Not to mention people. Not to mention producctivity. Not to mention what they lose when the Boston stock market melts and then glows for a few hundred years. MILLIONS dead in a hostile nuclear icbm strike on a soverign nation is going to get SOOOO big a reply it's unreal.

But as pointed out the attack didn't just 'Hit some unlivable land in the UCAS.. It hit boston. It hit the UCAS government. Killed millions of it's people..___AND___ it hit all the other mega's too. All their extraterritorial land in Boston gets nuked. You know that trick when you're running from Lone Star adnn you climb a fence to get into an Ares area and Lone Star can't chase you with out calling ares and getting permission? That Ares land? nuked. As well as all the other Mega's land.

That's with out factoring in Fall out traveling down the east coast and up the east coast hitting the other Sprawls... That's with out factoring in the trillions in lost wages as things shut down due to the damage and stuff.

We just had an earth quake and tsunami in Japan. It wasn't even in the 'major' ccities.. About 20,000 people are dead or missing, that's less than 1% of how many would die if you nuked the boston Sprawl and we've got world wide slow down of business. Ford can't produce black cars (or red) Apple's Ipad 2 lauch has been crippled because parts are made in japan. Was all of Japan nuked? no, but the areas that were effected are effecting the area's around it. Things go out in a ripple effect.

Some of the people here are seriously seriously deluding themselves if they think a few fines and a few managers on trial would stop war.

Would th UCAS just start nuking SK places around the globe? No. Would SK's military, which is sizable get taken out? Yes.. In minutes. the country's don't just sit around with their thumbs up their butts. The USA today has plans incase Canada tries to invade the US (Again) and our responce on how to repell it and take out Canada's military. CANADA... We've got over 300 million people. Canada has a bit over 30million and we have plans on how to stop their invasion.... Mexico's too. You think the UCAS doesn't have plans on what to do if SK gets frisky and attacks them? Or Ares, or Horizon? As well as the CAS and the NAN? Of course they do.

if SK nukes Boston the UCAS is rolling out the bombers and all their military might. So would the UCAS's allies. Airspace would be OPENED for them to travel and SK's military assets would be taken out and nutralized very fast.

After the fangs were pulled the CC would roll into action. ALLLL Those corps that had interests in Boston that are now nuked, will want a peice of Sk's pie. The Omega order wouldn't be 'Nuke all their assetts into ashes" it'd be "Seize and redistribute among those affected"

The golden dragon is whily.. he likes hhis business but he's not going to flip out and destroy the world. Why you ask? because he's not the only great dragon on the scene. This isn't Dark sun. There isnt "ONE DRAGON" In shadowrun. There's dozens of great dragons. 100s if not 1000s of lessers. If Low started one of those 'I"LL JUST TAKE EVERYONE WITH ME" fits (( which would be moronic)) the other dragons would go 'Mmmmmmm Nope. Don't think so" and cock block and possibly kill him. Low is strong, but against Ghostwalker? Or... two great dragons? or Three? or Five? he's toast.

SK is a business. One that took Low a long time to set up but not THAT LONG. In the eyes of Dragons it was ann eye blink. He just did it first. He could lose the entire company and not be "out" anything but a power base. He could take the loss. And would. he wouldn't destroy the world annd everyone in it due to a company that he's had for what... 50 years of his centuries and centuries on earth? That's silly.

Some in this thread are acting like the world would treat the Nuking of Boston and the killing of Millions like someone dinged your car in the parking lot of Hooters... while conversely sayng that Low would treat retaliation like the beheading of his wife for the same dingging of the car and would flip out like an Emo kid at a school shooting killing everything in sight before killing himself. It's not going to roll that way.
Ascalaphus
It's like this. The UCAS president can choose A or B:

A) declare war on S-K, after which they both lob nukes at each other. Boston is avenged, but the entire UCAS is dead. (So is S-K, but if your own country is glass, who cares?)

B) get payback without war

....and if it looks like he's going to choose A, then some sane advisor would shoot him in the back of the head. Because revenge is not worth getting everyone else dead too. Because even 1 million dead does not justify 300 million dead.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Pepsi Jedi @ Mar 27 2011, 09:18 AM) *
You people are cracking me up. Honestly it's like none of you were alive 10 years ago. When those planes flew into the twin towers America freaked out. We lost roughly 3 thousand people and 10 buildings or so. If someone nuked boston, one of the biggest sprawls in the UCAS the resulting responce would be many orders of magnitude larger. You're acting like it's no big deal. Round up some board members and impose sanctions.


And yet, with the response that Bush sanctioned, we have lost more soldiers than people that were lost in the falling of the twin towers. Was it justified? Possibly. Has it solved anything in the Middle East? Absolutely not. In fact, things are worse for it now than they were then.

If Boston is indeed Nuked. There might be retaliation, as a gut reaction. But I am pretty sure that UCAS Citizens would not be willing to sacrifice their entire nation for that Vengeance. MAD is exactly that. MUTUALLY ASSURED DESTRUCTION. Start throwing Nukes and you are going to reap the whirlwind.

Anyways. wobble.gif
Pepsi Jedi
QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Mar 27 2011, 11:32 AM) *
It's like this. The UCAS president can choose A or B:

A) declare war on S-K, after which they both lob nukes at each other. Boston is avenged, but the entire UCAS is dead. (So is S-K, but if your own country is glass, who cares?)

B) get payback without war

....and if it looks like he's going to choose A, then some sane advisor would shoot him in the back of the head. Because revenge is not worth getting everyone else dead too. Because even 1 million dead does not justify 300 million dead.



That's just untrue. You're acting like there's nothing between the two which is stupid. We've had nukes for decades. We've used them once. We didn't lob nukes at Iraq. Saying there's only two choices. Total Nuclear war or pussified non action is simplistic and misleading.

The UCAS would take out SK's military assets and the CC would divide it up to the ravenous Megacorps all wanting their piece of the pie.
Pepsi Jedi
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Mar 27 2011, 11:46 AM) *
And yet, with the response that Bush sanctioned, we have lost more soldiers than people that were lost in the falling of the twin towers. Was it justified? Possibly. Has it solved anything in the Middle East? Absolutely not. In fact, things are worse for it now than they were then.

If Boston is indeed Nuked. There might be retaliation, as a gut reaction. But I am pretty sure that UCAS Citizens would not be willing to sacrifice their entire nation for that Vengeance. MAD is exactly that. MUTUALLY ASSURED DESTRUCTION. Start throwing Nukes and you are going to reap the whirlwind.

Anyways. wobble.gif



And again. Noone's saying nuke them back. That's the extreamist excuse to get out of logically looking at the problem. We've had nukes for years. but when we're hit or we go to war we don't nuke anyone. We used Nukes once to stop a world war. They've not been used offensively since then.

the UCAS retaliation wouldn't be nuclear. They'd surgically target the SK assets. Nor would the UCAS just go nuking civilians. They'd take out the military assets and then divy up what was left with no military to defend them.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Pepsi Jedi @ Mar 27 2011, 09:54 AM) *
And again. Noone's saying nuke them back. That's the extreamist excuse to get out of logically looking at the problem. We've had nukes for years. but when we're hit or we go to war we don't nuke anyone. We used Nukes once to stop a world war. They've not been used offensively since then.

the UCAS retaliation wouldn't be nuclear. They'd surgically target the SK assets. Nor would the UCAS just go nuking civilians. They'd take out the military assets and then divy up what was left with no military to defend them.



And in that I say, Good Luck to the UCAS... I do not see it playing out like you do...
Nath
On a second thought, now we started a comparison with the 9-11 terrorist attack, the whole premise of this discussion now appears to me under a different view. Something around those lines :

September 11, 2001, at 10:13 AM, US armed forces destroyed the headquarters of American Airlines in Fort Worth, Texas, and United Airlines in Boise, Idaho, as a retaliation against the attacks in New York and Washington this morning. Operations are still underway to neutralize their remaining air assets and enforce a no-fly zone above the US. Secretary of defense Donald Rumself said "We don't buy their 'terrorist hijackers' story. It is more than likely US airline companies have been conspiring for decades against the United States of America."

As a side note, and for the record, the East Coast Stock Exchange moved from Boston to Manhattan after the 2064 Crash, according to Manhattan sourcebook, page 6 (the same page also mentions Boston suffered from the radioactive fallout of a Winternight EMP weapon).
Manunancy
QUOTE (Pepsi Jedi @ Mar 27 2011, 06:18 PM) *
Would th UCAS just start nuking SK places around the globe? No. Would SK's military, which is sizable get taken out? Yes.. In minutes. the country's don't just sit around with their thumbs up their butts. The USA today has plans incase Canada tries to invade the US (Again) and our responce on how to repell it and take out Canada's military. CANADA... We've got over 300 million people. Canada has a bit over 30million and we have plans on how to stop their invasion.... Mexico's too. You think the UCAS doesn't have plans on what to do if SK gets frisky and attacks them? Or Ares, or Horizon? As well as the CAS and the NAN? Of course they do.


I strongly doubt the reaction would be in mere minutes : having that sort of reaction times means that :
* you have an awfull lot of immediate (not fast, immediate) forces on h24, 7/7 alert. Not standy, but alert : fueled, bombs onboard with fuses armed, maybe even iddling on the tarmac.
* you have an automated, dead-man switch style coordination for your attacks, with dozens of attack plans and an ability to launch all the country's military might against what it decides is a target almost instantly. No human in the loop on that one if you want a worldwide réaction less than five minutes after the initating event.

That would be hideously expensive. The UCAS simply can't afford that sort of military prepration level without going bankrupt real fast. Even todays USA couldn't, and the UCAS are comapratively lightweight.
That would be also insanely dangerous : with the whole system on that sort of hair-thin trigger, any bnungling, from a faulty sensor on an alert sat to some lazy clerc failing to register a military action could sent it in a worldwide destructive spree. Too fast for an human supervisor to react. Don't even think of what a hacker could do - he won't even need to hack the main systems, only enough peripherals to push the system's berzerk button, thne watch the show as it does the work itself...

With SR's past matrix shenannigans, nay nation attempting to built that sort of systems will get very strong pressure from just about every world-scale actor to can that crap, real fast.
kzt
Airplanes with crews? How 20th century. It's orbital bombardment systems, orbital lasers, and subs. Plus the occasional high yield Fed-Ex truck.
Ogrebear
QUOTE (Pepsi Jedi @ Mar 27 2011, 05:51 PM) *
That's just untrue. You're acting like there's nothing between the two which is stupid. We've had nukes for decades. We've used them once. We didn't lob nukes at Iraq. Saying there's only two choices. Total Nuclear war or pussified non action is simplistic and misleading.

The UCAS would take out SK's military assets and the CC would divide it up to the ravenous Megacorps all wanting their piece of the pie.



Problem is you are also comparing UCAS to the USA. UCAS IS a pussy compared to the USA. The US *might* go for the immediate military option but UCAS has not got the weight, nor the military.

Bush did not start carpet bombing Iraq or Pakistan immediately after 9/11 - he had to wait for the assets to be in place (to invade the wrong country) before moving, that left time for an investigation. UCAS might start warming up the tanks, planes, men and orbital assets but the are doing NOTHING before the CC rules. Why? simple if the UCAS takes that sorta action without the court say-so against a mega then the CC might turn around and order the other corps- victims or not - that the UCAS has acted without authority against a fellow AAA+ Corp and Corp vs Govt war might be the result and the UCAS will lose, badly.

The UCAS is totally in the CC's members pocket - they will not risk/be allowed to risk military action without CC say so.

Course IF the CC did order S-K taken down - VERY UNLIKELY - but if they did, then the UCAS will probably get first strike options.
Pepsi Jedi
QUOTE (Manunancy @ Mar 27 2011, 02:51 PM) *
I strongly doubt the reaction would be in mere minutes : having that sort of reaction times means that :
* you have an awfull lot of immediate (not fast, immediate) forces on h24, 7/7 alert. Not standy, but alert : fueled, bombs onboard with fuses armed, maybe even iddling on the tarmac.
* you have an automated, dead-man switch style coordination for your attacks, with dozens of attack plans and an ability to launch all the country's military might against what it decides is a target almost instantly. No human in the loop on that one if you want a worldwide réaction less than five minutes after the initating event.

That would be hideously expensive. The UCAS simply can't afford that sort of military prepration level without going bankrupt real fast. Even todays USA couldn't, and the UCAS are comapratively lightweight.
That would be also insanely dangerous : with the whole system on that sort of hair-thin trigger, any bnungling, from a faulty sensor on an alert sat to some lazy clerc failing to register a military action could sent it in a worldwide destructive spree. Too fast for an human supervisor to react. Don't even think of what a hacker could do - he won't even need to hack the main systems, only enough peripherals to push the system's berzerk button, thne watch the show as it does the work itself...

With SR's past matrix shenannigans, nay nation attempting to built that sort of systems will get very strong pressure from just about every world-scale actor to can that crap, real fast.


Minutes? No. It'd take some time to roll it out. A 'fast' response though? Yes. The UCAS can afford those Thor shots. They can afford things that only nations can afford. Would the response be in minutes? No.. Would the President and the Joint chiefs meet with in minutes and the ball be rolling? Yes. We do have forward deployed fleets and stuff, Carriers run flight ops 24/7 and those can gear up to war sorties damn near instantly. With in hours at least. It wouldn't be automatic no, but sure as hell when they found out who nuked them, they're going to get retaliation.
Ogrebear
@Loch

When you say Boston got hit could you give us some more breakdown of what exactly happened please?

How did the runners stop the other missiles? Did the others land somewhere? How obvious where their efforts? Where the runners on or off the sub? How experimental was the sub/missiles? Obviously S-K kit?

Multi warhead ICBM? Single device? Payload? Air burst? Ground hit?

You thinking of total City wipe out or just a few blocks? Downtown or on the edge of the City?

Do you want a full on War scenario or something more limited?

Pepsi Jedi
QUOTE (Nath @ Mar 27 2011, 02:13 PM) *
On a second thought, now we started a comparison with the 9-11 terrorist attack, the whole premise of this discussion now appears to me under a different view. Something around those lines :

September 11, 2001, at 10:13 AM, US armed forces destroyed the headquarters of American Airlines in Fort Worth, Texas, and United Airlines in Boise, Idaho, as a retaliation against the attacks in New York and Washington this morning. Operations are still underway to neutralize their remaining air assets and enforce a no-fly zone above the US. Secretary of defense Donald Rumself said "We don't buy their 'terrorist hijackers' story. It is more than likely US airline companies have been conspiring for decades against the United States of America."

As a side note, and for the record, the East Coast Stock Exchange moved from Boston to Manhattan after the 2064 Crash, according to Manhattan sourcebook, page 6 (the same page also mentions Boston suffered from the radioactive fallout of a Winternight EMP weapon).


The difference being that American Airlines didn't launch an ICBM armed with a nuclear warhead at a city and take out millions. Nor was American Airlines a defacto government on it's own.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Pepsi Jedi @ Mar 27 2011, 04:57 PM) *
The difference being that American Airlines didn't launch an ICBM armed with a nuclear warhead at a city and take out millions. Nor was American Airlines a defacto government on it's own.


Which is irrelevant. Investigations are needed before actions are taken. There will be time for those investigations. And in the end, Time favors the Worm...
Manunancy
QUOTE (Pepsi Jedi @ Mar 28 2011, 01:56 AM) *
Minutes? No. It'd take some time to roll it out. A 'fast' response though? Yes. The UCAS can afford those Thor shots. They can afford things that only nations can afford. Would the response be in minutes? No.. Would the President and the Joint chiefs meet with in minutes and the ball be rolling? Yes. We do have forward deployed fleets and stuff, Carriers run flight ops 24/7 and those can gear up to war sorties damn near instantly. With in hours at least. It wouldn't be automatic no, but sure as hell when they found out who nuked them, they're going to get retaliation.


That's not what you said : in your earlier post, it was, in substance "minutes after the nuke pops, Ares (or the UCAS) will have burned SK's miltary assests worldwide". And in 2070, I'd think the UCAS military will only be fraction of what the US miltary is : scratch california, texas and the other states that moved away, one can expect the tax base being at best half what it was. Add a layer of severe corp taxation and the flight of a lot of the taxable middle class into corporate extraterritorialty, and what the UCAs can afford doesn't look so threatening to me...

There's also the minor problem that with SK's assets being spread all over the world, going militarily after them will embroil the attacker into an horrible mess - no nukes, only Thor shots, unless you want to be on the same sort of problems as your target. Miss an SK office in say, Paris, and expect to have a very pissed french ambassador knocking on your door real soon. The UCAS are no longer the 800 lbs gorilla on the world scene.

All this combines to make sure that the reaction will be delayed - to ramp up the assets, to give some time to the first investigation and the like, which gives times to Lofwyr to start a diplomatic resolution. And probably annonce it loud, clear and worldide to make it clear to teh world that your reaction would be of the 'screw talking, I won't listen to your side of the issue and go straight for the throat'. Under severe presure and that's likely to cost SK an arm and a leg, maybe even it's AAA statut but probably manage to save his scaly hide and and hefty pile of cash and influence.
Note that if you merely Thorshot SK's headquarter and manage to nail him in the process, it raises some interesting questions : what are inheritance rule anmongst great dragons in that case, and who will you negociate with for surrender/settlement/whatever.

My personal opinion is that basically the whole situaion couldn't happen because for me SK has no use for, and won't have SLBMs in the first place. Even less so if they can be hacked into launching.
Pepsi Jedi
QUOTE (Manunancy @ Mar 28 2011, 02:30 AM) *
That's not what you said : in your earlier post, it was, in substance "minutes after the nuke pops, Ares (or the UCAS) will have burned SK's miltary assests worldwide". And in 2070, I'd think the UCAS military will only be fraction of what the US miltary is : scratch california, texas and the other states that moved away, one can expect the tax base being at best half what it was. Add a layer of severe corp taxation and the flight of a lot of the taxable middle class into corporate extraterritorialty, and what the UCAs can afford doesn't look so threatening to me...

There's also the minor problem that with SK's assst being sprea all over the world, going militarily after them will embroil the attacker into an horrible mess - no nukes, only Thor shots, unless you want to be on the same sort of problems as your target - miss an SK office in ay, Paris, and expect to have a very pissed french ambassador knocking on your door real soon. The UCAS are no longer the 800 lbs gorilla on the world scene.

All this combines to make sure that the reaction will be delayed - to ramp up the assets, to give some time to the first investigation and the like, which gives times to Lofwyr to start a diplomatic resolution. And probably annonce it loud, clear and worldide to make it clear to teh world that your reaction would be of the 'screw talking, I won't listen to your side of the issue and go straight for the throat'. Under severe presure and that's likely to cost SK an arm and a leg, maybe even it's AAA statut but probably manage to save his scaly hide and and hefty pile of cash and influence.
Note that if you merely Thorshot SK's headquarter and manage to nail him in te process, it raises some interesting questions : what are inheritance rule anmongst great dragons in that case, and who will you negociate with for surrender/settlement/whatever.

My personal opinion is that basically the whole situaion couldn't happen because for me SK has no use for, and won't have SLBMs in the first place. Even less so if they can be hacked into launching.


For the record. I don't think it'd happen either. If for no other reason, than ___IF____ Lofwyr HAD nukes, he'd have 100 ways to stop such an accidental useage of them in this exact manner, to prevent himself from ever being put in the situation.

Thatbeing said the UCAS is what remained of the USA when the NAN Got their half of the country. That half of the country (( I hate to say it)), Other than CA was largely under populated ANYWAY. And didn't hold the lion's share of the military bases. CA was a free state. Seattle is still UCAS. So the USA kept all the Military forces it had.

The CAS didn't leave till later. And before they did, the USA had picked up big parts of Canada to add in. Again the USA didn't just leave military assets for the NAN to take over. They took them with them. They are a NATION and not a tiny one. (( smaller than we used to be sure, but still the biggest in NA.)) They have the resources of the USA, some what reduced but added in with that of part of Canada. It's still a world power. And the corps while big, don't take on NATIONS unless they're very very small or very very weak. The "Corp run nations" can be counted on one hand. The UCAS is still stronger than any one mega corp and the other mega corps aren't going to get in a fight with it because they'd effectivly be having to sacrifice all THEIR assets in said nation and risk endangering other corps when they go offensively against the nation in which the mega's have resources and assets.

Would the retaliation against SK (( in the 'given' situation wich I fully agree with you, never happen)) be "instant"? No. Would it be swift and brutal? yes. The UCAS would determine who the frak nuked them, and then Declair full out war. At the extreme extreme least, all SK property in the UCAS would be taken. With force if need be, and Lofwyr would be brought up before the Hague. he might not have pushed the button but the converse of power is responsibility. ____IF____ ((unlikely)) He was fielding a fleet of Boomers with nuke capable ICBMs it's his responsibility if one is fired off. "I didn't pull the trigger" Doesn't absolve you of that responsibility.

The reaction would be many many levels higher than "Some sanctions and a fine" for nuking a major city.


(( small side note. I've not read the Manhattan book. Didn't know they moved the stockmarket.. I'll give it a glance later. i do have it. just haven't read it.))
Dahrken
QUOTE (Pepsi Jedi @ Mar 28 2011, 09:35 AM) *
So the USA kept all the Military forces it had.

Well, those military assets are something like 50 years old by 2070...
QUOTE (Pepsi Jedi @ Mar 28 2011, 09:35 AM) *
He was fielding a fleet of Boomers with nuke capable ICBMs it's his responsibility if one is fired off. "I didn't pull the trigger" Doesn't absolve you of that responsibility

When a nuclear ICBM was launched from an US silo by someone else (the Lone Eagle affair), it was that someone who was deemed responsible for the whole mess, not the (then US) gouvermnent who blatantly failed to secure the launch facility against external interference...

Also IIRC Ares was not sanctionned much for the Cermak blast (and the whole Chicago mess it triggered), despite deliberately detonating a nuke (tactical, not strategic but still) in a major UCAS city.
Ascalaphus
Look at the Arcology, too: about a hundred thousand people dead, including the governor of the Seattle Metroplex. Did the UCAS go to war? Not with Renraku.


So, fat chance the result of this whole incident is that the discussion on AI rights takes a different turn.






(Probably people will love them even more. SR4 is strange in that way.)
CanRay
QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Mar 28 2011, 06:16 AM) *
Look at the Arcology, too: about a hundred thousand people dead, including the governor of the Seattle Metroplex. Did the UCAS go to war? Not with Renraku.

No, they just declared "Eminent Domain" and took the Arcology, and never gave it back. (I, personally, have the picture of a UCAS handing a Renraku Exec a bill for taking the Arc back, and 'Raku being unable to pay it.).
Ascalaphus
Yeah - they responded with politics.

In this case, that's probably the same. The UCAS doesn't have armies across all of Europe and the Middle-East. Those countries would be upset if the UCAS tried to bomb S-K enclaves inside their borders. Sure, they'd be very sorry for Boston, but it's not their city, and they won't just roll over for the UCAS; they'll demand convincing proof and horse-trading before they allow that. That kind of politics can take years.
Pepsi Jedi
QUOTE (Dahrken @ Mar 28 2011, 05:56 AM) *
Well, those military assets are something like 50 years old by 2070...


Yeah we're still using ALOT of tech from 50 years ago today. Along side our new stuff. I mean you look at the .50cal machine gun and, it's an oldy but goody. Look at the Warthog. Ect ect ect. I get what you're saying. Thhat in 50 years there's advances, but some things don't. When you have a 50 cal machine gun that works just fine and everyone knows how to use it and the parts are plentiful you keep it. Most of our jets are designed decades ago. Yes you keep up grading but in 50 years we're still going to be using Raptors.

My main point in saying that they kept it, was that they didn't have to start from scratch. That they had that sound military base and instead of having to create it, they could just up date it.

If you have a jeep.... it's alot easier to put new tires on it and paint it and replace the headlights... than to build an entire jeep from scratch. *G*

QUOTE (Dahrken @ Mar 28 2011, 05:56 AM) *
When a nuclear ICBM was launched from an US silo by someone else (the Lone Eagle affair), it was that someone who was deemed responsible for the whole mess, not the (then US) gouvermnent who blatantly failed to secure the launch facility against external interference...


If SK Launched a ICBM from an SK Sub and hit an SK town in Germany, they'd have to answer to other people. The compairison doesn't quite mesh

QUOTE (Dahrken @ Mar 28 2011, 05:56 AM) *
Also IIRC Ares was not sanctioned much for the Cermak blast (and the whole Chicago mess it triggered), despite deliberately detonating a nuke (tactical, not strategic but still) in a major UCAS city.


Now.... it's been a while since I've read bug city. (( but DID just get a new physical copy this week to go with my PDF)) and.. I just got the UCAS book, literally, today in the mail. But I think they were sanctioned by the UCAS government at the time and infact encouraged to do so in the defense of the... WORLD from the Bug spirits weren't they? and they were targeting a major threat to the country/world/All the mega's when they did it. It wasn't just randomly nuking a major city?

*Holds up hands* I'll admit it's been.... 5... 8 years since I've read bug city.. and I've just got the UCAS book out of the envelope about 30 minutes ago... but I think it was done on purpose, which also differs from the situation in the original post. (( one that I still don't think would be likely to occur))
Dahrken
QUOTE (Pepsi Jedi @ Mar 28 2011, 08:24 PM) *
If SK Launched a ICBM from an SK Sub and hit an SK town in Germany, they'd have to answer to other people. The compairison doesn't quite mesh

The missile was launched from an american silo seized by native american activists toward russian targets, and the OP's situation was an SK boomer seized by a non S-K AI launching toward UCAS targets... While the Lone Eagle missile did not actually hit, I think the comparaison is quite appropriate.

As for the Cermak blast, it's not really documented who was in the know. But considering that at the time the city was already under a blocus by UCAS military, I think that if a decision was made to nuke quite a bunch of UCAS citizens it would have been carried out by UCAS military (maybe an air strike, maybe a ground Special Forces operation) rather than subcontracted to a corporate strike team. My guess would be that it was a worst-case contingency plan for an Ares/Knight-Errant operation that the UCAS government was not informed about and that Ares only got away with it because several factors (they knew a lot of things about the bugs, the blast was less powerful than it should have been and Chicago was already considered lost, Ares has a lot of pull in the UCAS government...) allowed them to bargain behind closed doors for forgiveness rather than autorisation...

I agree with you on at least one point : the original situation would have been extremely unlikely to occur.
Pepsi Jedi
QUOTE (Dahrken @ Mar 28 2011, 02:57 PM) *
The missile was launched from an american silo seized by native american activists toward russian targets, and the OP's situation was an SK boomer seized by a non S-K AI launching toward UCAS targets... While the Lone Eagle missile did not actually hit, I think the comparaison is quite appropriate.


But it's not... There is "Hey you let a missle get launched. We gotta SERIOUSLY talk about that frakin' crap!!"

and "You NUKED one of our major cities, trillions of yen in damages and millions dead.

The first is bad enough. (( The incident described)) but the nuke didn't actually hit. it was scary but noone was 'hurt'. It did ratchet up tensions and cause alot of backlash but ..... well not putting too fine a point on it. there's a huge difference between "being shot at" and "being shot at and killed"

The nuke didn't hit so it's not the same thing.
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