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Yerameyahu
Yes, sabs, except those shouldn't affect spirits either.
Hida Tsuzua
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jul 20 2011, 02:19 PM) *
That's a bug, not a feature, Hida Tsuzua. It's sad that the way to deal with (overpowered) spirits is (overpowered) taser ammo.


Oh it's totally an accident and spirits are their own bag of issues. But, SnS is one of the few things that keeps the magicrun at bay, even if does so in a finger in the dike sort of way. Messing up the already unbalanced firearm groups is a small price to pay. It's weird that you taze spirits, but if you're playing shadowrun you're wearing a duck on your head for +1/+1 armor anyways so it isn't that bad.
suoq
I'm not sure it's "stupidly overpowered".

Bond gets away with killing everyone because he's almost always in an isolated area surrounded by people who are, by definition, bad guys, simply because they're there.

Shadowrun frequently has the runners engaging in combat in the middle of a pile of wage slaves. The only thing keeping the non-mages* from becoming notorious mass murderers is Stick-n-Shock. Without S-n-S having the power level it has, there's no point in even entering combat as a non-mage unless you're willing to become public-enemy #1 AND a sitting duck for spirits.

If the runner is going to shoot 30 bullets from a pistol, what do you think they should be shooting and what's the likely outcome from those 30 shots?

-----

*Mages just choose to use stunball/bolt (depending on their chargen). No swapping clips or swapping weapons or any of that hassle.
Draco18s
QUOTE (longbowrocks @ Jul 20 2011, 03:03 AM) *
You might be able to cure him of that by using a bow.
*depending on how old your pdf is.


My GM invented the Trollbow. 9.9
Or might as well have. We have a character in the party that does 13P base with a bow right now.
(I think I still have the kill-count though. My answer to all problems is a F7 stunbolt)
sabs
Suoq

Use Gel Rounds.
Use narcojet guns.
Engage in hand to hand with the guards and subdue them.
Use Taser guns.

There are options outside of SnS.

Yera, yeah, i suspect that Taser guns shouln't work on Spirits. If you want to kill spirits, you should need to use bigger guns. (or Indirect Spells)
Draco18s
QUOTE (sabs @ Jul 20 2011, 11:18 AM) *
(or Indirect Spells)


Indirect spells? Why not stunbolt?
sabs
Sure stunbolt works too smile.gif
suoq
Gel Rounds = please use something that doesn't hurt my spirits.
narcojet guns = please use something that doesn't hurt my spirits.
Engage in hand to hand with the guards and subdue them = please use something that doesn't hurt my spirits
Taser guns = ok. these don't have any range and very limited ammo. You can use these while I kick your ass from LOS.

Stunbolt. Yeah, that works too. At long range. And works on people. It's everything Stick and shock wants to be and even comes in ball form. But yeah, we need to get rid of the Stick-n-Shock. sarcastic.gif
LurkerOutThere
I have, and we're better for it.
KarmaInferno
QUOTE (DamienKnight @ Jul 20 2011, 08:51 AM) *
In War! they introduces a spell that simply recharges electronics, which suggests that Commlink charges dont last for years.

Yes, but you missed my point. Battery life is largely irrelevant. Batteries in SR last as long as Plot.




-k
sabs
If someone unleashes a spirit into the middle of a bunch of wageslaves, they don't get to whine when said wageslaves die.
Stunbolt has the potential to knock the caster unconcious.
A force 6 stunbolt has a Drain of 4. That requires a 16 drain stat to rule of 4 it. And yes, you're likely to make the roll. But it is possible to fail it.

When the answer to every problem is, I use SnS.. then SnS is broken.

LurkerOutThere
Even if you fail the roll utterly you still only took 4 stun where as a whole bunch of opponents took at least 6 (likely).
sabs
sure and with SnS in a submachine gun on suppressive fire, I get the same result, except I have absolutely no chance of taking stun, OH and they probably will just fall to the ground twitching even if I don't stun em
Mäx
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jul 20 2011, 05:19 PM) *
That's a bug, not a feature, Hida Tsuzua. It's sad that the way to deal with (overpowered) spirits is (overpowered) taser ammo.

Neither of those are really that overpowered.
Well okey the spirits are at a high enough force wink.gif
Draco18s
QUOTE (sabs @ Jul 20 2011, 12:02 PM) *
If someone unleashes a spirit into the middle of a bunch of wageslaves, they don't get to whine when said wageslaves die.
Stunbolt has the potential to knock the caster unconcious.
A force 6 stunbolt has a Drain of 4. That requires a 16 drain stat to rule of 4 it. And yes, you're likely to make the roll. But it is possible to fail it.

When the answer to every problem is, I use SnS.. then SnS is broken.


A force 6 stun bolt does not have a drain of 4. 6/2 - 1 = 2.
sabs
yeah, I read too fast and picked up the Ball drain.
Course, the very first houserule I have when I run is that drain is now F and not F/2 smile.gif so
Ascalaphus
QUOTE (suoq @ Jul 19 2011, 11:15 PM) *
To me the escalation seems simple.

Defense forces (cops, guards, etc)
1) Wear the nonconductive FFBA.
2) Get the additional "clip" option and a smartgun.
3) Use the Stick-n-shock ammo "clip" first. If you get a few non-combatants with the S-n-S, then they can take a nap for awhile and stay out of things.
4) Anyone left standing deserves the most lethal ammo your employer will let you carry.

Intelligent bystanders will wear armor that protects vs death by ganger/shadowrunner/etc. Getting stunned is survivable and Tri-D has taught them that the penalty for wearing non-conductivity is death by superior firepower. Shows teach them that cops full auto the block with S-n-S to clear out the bystanders and then kill anyone left standing.



I like this. Training wageslaves to lie down and play dead as a survival tactic fits SR nicely smile.gif

OTOH, I also like some of the other fixes (shotguns, more expensive, damage same as gun). It'd hurt the SnS-holdout pistol of doom, but meh. Those are supposed to be loaded with plastic bullets anyway.

Most importantly, limiting SnS makes tasers a serious proposition. And using tasers against spirits isn't all that bad; you don't have to enter melee combat, but it's not sniping either.
X-Kalibur
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Jul 20 2011, 09:15 AM) *
A force 6 stun bolt does not have a drain of 4. 6/2 - 1 = 2.


I was told there would be no math. However, it does nicely showcase why stunbolt is stupidly overpowered. Sure, you can do 6(s) damage with 1/2 impact with SnS. While you do have a decent chance to make the twitch like a tweaker going thru withdrawls, someone with a high body and some non-conductivity can shut it down fairly well.

Force 6 stunbolt, however? All you get is willpower if you don't have a counterspell-er around. You know, the stat no one can really get above a 6? And they have to resist all of 2 drain... which most casters can buy the hits for. Hell, throw it out at force 8, it's only 3 physical drain. And what happens to the poor target, who will never, ever, get more hits on willpower than the caster's sorcery pool? He's out like a light. Maybe even with bleed over into physical track.
LurkerOutThere
QUOTE (sabs @ Jul 20 2011, 10:06 AM) *
sure and with SnS in a submachine gun on suppressive fire, I get the same result, except I have absolutely no chance of taking stun, OH and they probably will just fall to the ground twitching even if I don't stun em



And if you suppressive fire that is all you are doing and if they stay in cover they are not affected at all.
Draco18s
QUOTE (X-Kalibur @ Jul 20 2011, 12:25 PM) *
I was told there would be no math. However, it does nicely showcase why stunbolt is stupidly overpowered. Sure, you can do 6(s) damage with 1/2 impact with SnS. While you do have a decent chance to make the twitch like a tweaker going thru withdrawls, someone with a high body and some non-conductivity can shut it down fairly well.

Force 6 stunbolt, however? All you get is willpower if you don't have a counterspell-er around. You know, the stat no one can really get above a 6? And they have to resist all of 2 drain... which most casters can buy the hits for. Hell, throw it out at force 8, it's only 3 physical drain. And what happens to the poor target, who will never, ever, get more hits on willpower than the caster's sorcery pool? He's out like a light. Maybe even with bleed over into physical track.


I think Stun Bolt is cheating, but I have been unable to think of a solution that would adequately fix the problem inherent within the magic system more broadly.

Spells that do stun should have a lower drain cost. Indirect vs. direct is questionable, although largely irrelevant (if we swap draincodes, then there'll be an indirect stun spell that becomes The Spell Of Choice).

Using F instead of F/2 only makes other spells even more disadvantageous to use (no one would ever cast Fireball, at F+5, for instance, and God forbid something like Mindnet, Extended at F+7 where force determines range and F1 is largely pointless (at magic 6 the characters would have a 60 meter range on their telepathy, which is neigh useless for many purposes--good scouting would need F3 or higher, depending on the target location)).

My GM however, has ruled "no multicasting" which is fair, as I'd only use it to dual or even triple cast F5+ stunbolts (at F7 I do knock people out, at F5 I can nearly fill stuntracks on three people with one complex action and take 3 DV worth of drain three times).
sabs
QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ Jul 20 2011, 05:26 PM) *
And if you suppressive fire that is all you are doing and if they stay in cover they are not affected at all.


I suppression fire with SnS...
1) the people I'm shooting at don't dive out of the way. They all take 6S(e) make a willpower check or fall down twitching, even if you make it, you're at -2 to everything you do.
2) they dive for cover/go prone. Woot! I'm not getting shot at this round.
3) Security Guard Charlie, my friend, whose standing next to me, sees that they've all dived for cover, and throws a flashbang grenade.
4) Profit!
DamienKnight
QUOTE (Draco18s @ Jul 20 2011, 09:43 AM) *
My GM invented the Trollbow. 9.9
Or might as well have. We have a character in the party that does 13P base with a bow right now.
(I think I still have the kill-count though. My answer to all problems is a F7 stunbolt)

I honestly dont understand the limitation on bow power. The power should only be limited by size... and if you are troll with reach, weilding an ungodly sized bow that basically fires small spears would be no big deal.
CanRay
The best way to incapacitate a target is to get them to do it themselves. Pornomancers in a bar are a good way.

But my group had this intricate and exceptional plan that included a StarBucks rip-off, the Street Doc's pharmaceutical knowledge, some high-end soykaff, and a really, really cheap ice cream truck that was quickly repainted.
LurkerOutThere
QUOTE (sabs @ Jul 20 2011, 10:42 AM) *
I suppression fire with SnS...
1) the people I'm shooting at don't dive out of the way. They all take 6S(e) make a willpower check or fall down twitching, even if you make it, you're at -2 to everything you do.
2) they dive for cover/go prone. Woot! I'm not getting shot at this round.
3) Security Guard Charlie, my friend, whose standing next to me, sees that they've all dived for cover, and throws a flashbang grenade.
4) Profit!


Going prone or going to cover doesn't prevent them from firing back, if your going to concoct a perfect scenario to try and prove your point yous hould understand the scneario your proposing.

The more I think about it I'm just not sure that there should be any drain code reduction for knocking people out rather then killing them. Froma game balance mechanic you can still walk up and stab them while their unconscious. From a world consistancy standpoint knocking people unconcious without actually hurting them is actually harder, why for mages is it easier?
LurkerOutThere
QUOTE (DamienKnight @ Jul 20 2011, 10:58 AM) *
I honestly dont understand the limitation on bow power. The power should only be limited by size... and if you are troll with reach, weilding an ungodly sized bow that basically fires small spears would be no big deal.


I think a lot of people, myself included have a real issue with bows doing more damage then artillery pieces. Anything you can do with (meta)human powered torque you should be able to do better with chemistry or engineering. Otherwise we'd see tank mounted crossbows in the highly overrated real world, which we do not. The limitation on bow power is strictly a game balance caveat to keep it in line with things it logicly shouldn't be outpacing, and I'm ok with that.

pbangarth
QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ Jul 20 2011, 12:21 PM) *
I think a lot of people, myself included have a real issue with bows doing more damage then artillery pieces.
There may be something to be said for limiting the power of bows, but this is overstating the case, somewhat. If your artillery is doing less damage than a spear, it's the artillery that is poorly statted, not the spear.
Whipstitch
Nah, I can't agree with that. Not when the "spears" were once serious threats to a MiG-67 Thunderbird. The armor system has serious problems at the high end and a lot of things stem from that but it's still pretty wacky to act as if the old-school trollbows weren't something of an outlier.
hobgoblin
I just remembered something, Gel rounds have a much bigger knockdown effect (yea, that rule, the one that everyone and their dog ignores) then other ammo...
DamienKnight
I liked the old SR3 rules that let you make a body roll against the knockdown.

In our group we noticed that highly armored characters were withstanding explosions that should knock them off their feet. We added to the knockdown rules that if the damage you were resisting exceeded TWICE your body (before resisting) then you were knocked down, regardless of how you are able to edge your way out of taking any damage.

This didnt apply to certain things with no kenetic energy, like shock weapons, but for everything else.

It really helped balance out the Free Possession Spirit character who knows how to layer armor. He may have no chance of actually taking any damage from the Burst Fire Shotgun Gel rounds, but if he doesnt dodge he will probably end up on his arse.
sabs
QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ Jul 20 2011, 06:18 PM) *
Going prone or going to cover doesn't prevent them from firing back, if your going to concoct a perfect scenario to try and prove your point yous hould understand the scneario your proposing.

The more I think about it I'm just not sure that there should be any drain code reduction for knocking people out rather then killing them. Froma game balance mechanic you can still walk up and stab them while their unconscious. From a world consistancy standpoint knocking people unconcious without actually hurting them is actually harder, why for mages is it easier?


If someone is under full cover they should not be able to shoot back. The prone issue, is irritating, because shooting at someone when you're prone because they're spraying bullets over your head really should give you some penalties.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (sabs @ Jul 20 2011, 11:36 AM) *
The prone issue, is irritating, because shooting at someone when you're prone because they're spraying bullets over your head really should give you some penalties.


Why? I trained in the Corps for many years to do just that very thing (incomming and outgoing). Suppression fire is not accurate, pin-point, anti-personnel fire. It is designed to get the opponent to get there heads down or seek cover... smile.gif
X-Kalibur
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 20 2011, 10:47 AM) *
Why? I trained in the Corps for many years to do just that very thing (incomming and outgoing). Suppression fire is not accurate, pin-point, anti-personnel fire. It is designed to get the opponent to get there heads down or seek cover... smile.gif


And if sustained for too long a period of time makes you a nice, juicy target for a marksman.
sabs
My point exactly, you had to train to do it. smile.gif
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (sabs @ Jul 20 2011, 11:50 AM) *
My point exactly, you had to train to do it. smile.gif


Point taken... But do you not expect your Corporate and Security personnel to do so as well? And do you not expect that your Shadowrunners will do the same thing as well (or have done so in the past)? In the end, Prone provides enough protection to return fire under Suppression Fire. smile.gif
sabs
I think a -1 or -2 firing from prone, that can be mitigated by take aim actions would be fine smile.gif

the answer of course, is to have 1 person do suppression fire, and then another to do wide bursts aimed at the guys who go prone.
Ascalaphus
QUOTE (sabs @ Jul 20 2011, 07:36 PM) *
If someone is under full cover they should not be able to shoot back. The prone issue, is irritating, because shooting at someone when you're prone because they're spraying bullets over your head really should give you some penalties.


IIRC, there is a listed penalty for firing while prone in the book.
Draco18s
QUOTE (hobgoblin @ Jul 20 2011, 02:05 PM) *
I just remembered something, Gel rounds have a much bigger knockdown effect (yea, that rule, the one that everyone and their dog ignores) then other ammo...


The reason everyone and their dog ignores it is because either a) it never happens (trolltanks are never knocked over*) or b) characters never get to stand up (2 body characters taking 2 boxes of stun fall over).

When adding in Gel ammo (adds 2 to the "DV" or subtracts 2 from the target's Body--depends on what section of the rules you're reading, but it's the same), that means a Body 4 character gets pushed around like a rag doll every time they get shot.

*Unless they take 10 boxes from a single attack. Wait, aren't they dead at this point, anyway?
Yerameyahu
It is kinda the point, though.
sabs
Trolls have 8+body/2 boxes of physical.

So, a Body 8 troll, has 12 tracks.
Draco18s
QUOTE (sabs @ Jul 20 2011, 03:42 PM) *
Trolls have 8+body/2 boxes of physical.

So, a Body 8 troll, has 12 tracks.


And he can wear 16 points of ballistic armor. If he took 10 boxes of damage and rolled 24 dice to get there, so he was taking an 18P attack (give or take). That outright kills most people.

Whereas a body 1 person should fall over every time I give them a love tap (they don't).
Fatum
Okay, just a quick note on SnS. They're obviously mechanically the best ammo in the game, because a) they deal (e) damage b) they are capable of dealing the damage normally reserved for assault rifles when you shoot them out of a holdout. Just like in RL everyone tries to use the best equipment they can, the way sns is superior to everything else just means everyone who can afford it is using it - even the guards who want lethal force, since you can still finish the target off once he's down with sns; you just don't need any other ammo anymore.
Same goes for form-fitting armor, btw - it's so much mechanically better, there is just no reason for everyone not to wear it.

I see everyone using the same equipment as a problem; just like I see the need for any firearms heavier than holdouts eliminated to be a problem.

Basically, yeah, there are two solutions - either a ban, an outright one or a gentlemanly agreement; or making those somehow worse. I just don't like making things worse, I guess, so I chose the first option.

Now, in what comes to brick-shaped LAVs and that. The one in Rigger 2 (two it was, I believe) is literally shaped like a brick. Or a flying bus, if you will. There's just no way to keep things like that airborne without some seriously improved engine and power source efficiency ratios. I see the fact that recharging commlinks or implants (another group of devices unthinkable without some serious advances energy storage) is never mentioned in the books as a sign that the absolute majority of runs can be performed without caring about such nuisances. That is, equipment holds charge for at least several days on end.
Actually, there are pocket-sized batteries capable of powering a combat laser. When USSR tested its combat laser developments, whole hydroplant cascades' output was redirected to the installation. Sure, ok, SR lasers are much smaller in scale and use more advanced tech, most likely, but still, they're bound to require massive amounts of energy.
So technologically, I see no reason for sns not to exist; only metagaming reasons not to like the current ruleset for them, at least.
Yerameyahu
Yes. But, metagaming (read: balance) reasons are perfectly valid. smile.gif Fluff is just fluff.
Fatum
Yep, they are. That's why I said I'm pretty much banning them.
On a side note, I don't think Shadowrun is all that about balance; the archetypes are very different and do not compete that much; and you pretty much need all in the party anyway. For me, it's about the gaming staying interesting, and for that, necessarily, diverse. Everyone using the same armor and weapon set is just boring.
Neko Asakami
QUOTE (Fatum @ Jul 20 2011, 07:31 PM) *
On a side note, I don't think Shadowrun is all that about balance; the archetypes are very different and do not compete that much; and you pretty much need all in the party anyway. For me, it's about the gaming staying interesting, and for that, necessarily, diverse. Everyone using the same armor and weapon set is just boring.


That's why only the guy carrying the shotgun gets SnS and commlinks run out of power: To keep things varied and interesting.
Yerameyahu
Except, they don't run out of power. smile.gif Not for days and days, at least, and only with extra house rules in place. To do that as a glitch effect is just cruel, bad GM-ing.
Neko Asakami
Calling it bad GMing just because you don't happen to agree with it is uncalled for. -_- I don't see how (in my game world) that is any different than a runner's gun jamming, both happened because of the runner's carelessness (Guns that are maintained properly don't jam unless you're using really cheap ammo). Besides, if you look back, I said "critical glitch." Players have the option to spend Edge to negate glitches, critical or otherwise. My player didn't and so he got nailed with something bad happening. The net effect was the same if he'd frozen his link: he had to restart it and launch all his programs again (albeit, he lost an extra pair of passes getting a spare battery out of his repair kit). What would you do to a hacker who had critically glitched?
Yerameyahu
I don't think I'm being offensive. To break a critical item in a way that couldn't be expected by the players (again, without a specific and forewarned house rule) is *bad*. They expect guns to jam, and it's only transient.

I see (*now* that you've mentioned it) that you fixed it by giving him a battery, because commlink batteries also don't exist; without that bandaid, there'd be nothing he could have done for a lot longer than a pair of passes. It'd be equivalent to the gun exploding, not jamming. Or disabling their arm because they critical-glitched a throw. That's all I meant. smile.gif The reason I don't agree with unexpected, critical punishments is because it's bad GM-ing, not the other way around.
KarmaInferno
Nah, as long as the players understand beforehand that glitches can mean damn near anything going wrong in a minor way, and critical glitches mean they go wrong in a MAJOR way.

It's all about setting the expectations before you start.





-k
Yerameyahu
I guess. I feel like that's a very odd expectation, but as long as it's clear ahead of time. smile.gif Personally, I wouldn't otherwise have expected an error making a phone call to make my computer *dead* (so it's good that battery happened to be there). I'd expect something phone-call-related to go wrong instead, wouldn't you? On a critical social glitch, your face doesn't melt. biggrin.gif

And on the critical/regular glitch angle, a 2-pass interruption is far too *weak* for a critical glitch, just like a gun jam is not a critical glitch effect. That's why I was confused.
Neko Asakami
QUOTE (Yerameyahu @ Jul 20 2011, 11:07 PM) *
I don't think I'm being offensive. To break a critical item in a way that couldn't be expected by the players (again, without a specific and forewarned house rule) is *bad*. They expect guns to jam, and it's only transient.

I see (*now* that you've mentioned it) that you fixed it by giving him a battery, because commlink batteries also don't exist; without that bandaid, there'd be nothing he could have done for a lot longer than a pair of passes. It'd be equivalent to the gun exploding, not jamming. That's all I meant. smile.gif The reason I don't agree with unexpected, critical punishments is because it's bad GM-ing, not the other way around.


Okay, fair enough. I'm actually really the same way, I like to try and make glitches logical for the situation (other than when it's really funny, of course). My players expect commlinks to crash, programs to freeze, faces to get drinks poured in their laps, the rigger to get pulled over by Knight Errant because he blew a stop sign tailing their quarry, things like that. I've always hated the "your gun/sword/knife/spork gets jammed in your holster" type of glitch. *That* is bad GMing to me.

And to be perfectly honest, I didn't actually give him the patch; he thought it up himself. I was expecting him to have to switch to his backup 'link, but he said "I reach into my repair kit and pull out a spare battery." Rather than being a dick and saying that it wasn't in there because most techs don't carry around spare AAs in their repair kits (which is really true, if you think about it), I let him have it for the creative thinking. That, and to be perfectly honest, I don't mind springing random things that they didn't expect on my players. Lord knows they do it to me often enough....

edited to respond to posts that posted while I was posting (so I can meme in my meme while I meme): It wasn't a 2 pass problem, it was something like 3 rounds because he had to completely reboot his link in addition to finding the battery. And yes, it might seem odd if you think about it in terms of "a phone call kills my computer," but thinking of it in terms of "the hacker not noticing the little flashing battery icon while dealing with IC," it's suddenly a lot clearer. And like I said above, my players expect this of me, like I expect them to grab the little-but-heavy candy dish that's on every secretary's desk and use it to knock out a guard. I didn't specifically say it was there, but by all rights and reason, why shouldn't it be? It's a give-and-take relationship I have with my players.
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