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ggodo
Ok, Blandness + Distinctive style. Can these be combined? How would you represent it? I'm coming up with something like the protagonist from Idiocracy, but I'm intrigued to know what happens.
Tanegar
They cancel each other out. Subtract 10 (the cost of Blandness) from the chosen level of Distinctive Style, i.e., if the character has a 20-point Distinctive Style Quality and takes Blandness, his Distinctive Style is reduced to a 10-point Quality (the additional 10BP are lost).

Alternatively, the character divides by zero and vanishes into a negative space wedgie.
Cain
I just rule that they're incompatible, and leave it at that.
crash2029
I would let them keep it. The person would be too ordinary. Someone who fits into the average so much, who is so perfectly normal that everynody remembers him. Unfortunately the best description would be "kinda average, nothing stood out." I would also have people slightly unnerved by him as well. Something you can't put your finger on.
ggodo
QUOTE (crash2029 @ Jul 29 2011, 10:54 PM) *
I would let them keep it. The person would be too ordinary. Someone who fits into the average so much, who is so perfectly normal that everynody remembers him. Unfortunately the best description would be "kinda average, nothing stood out." I would also have people slightly unnerved by him as well. Something you can't put your finger on.


Yeah, that's kinda what I was thinking, or a description of "So average you'll know when you see him."
CanRay
Bland in RL, Distinctive Style in AR/VR, maybe?
ggodo
Ooh! That'd be awesome for a hacker.
CanRay
IRL: *Mumbles and looks small and insignificant*

Online: "KNEEL BEFORE ZOD!!!"
ggodo
Must not make hacker named ZOD, will feel need to understand Unwired. . .
Xahn Borealis
QUOTE (Tanegar @ Jul 30 2011, 06:41 AM) *

Now look what you've done.
Brazilian_Shinobi
QUOTE (Tanegar @ Jul 30 2011, 02:41 AM) *
Alternatively, the character divides by zero and vanishes into a negative space wedgie.


The first rule of dumpshock is you do not link to TVtropes.org.
The second rule of dumpshock is YOU DO NOT LINK TO TVTROPES.ORG.
CanRay
QUOTE (CanRay @ Jul 30 2011, 01:46 AM) *
Bland in RL, Distinctive Style in AR/VR, maybe?
QUOTE (ggodo @ Jul 30 2011, 01:55 AM) *
Ooh! That'd be awesome for a hacker.
Well, it just makes sense. Think of the number of people IRL right now who are shrinking violets in person, but raging demons online?

Not add a direct neural interface. nyahnyah.gif
Tanegar
QUOTE (Brazilian_Shinobi @ Jul 30 2011, 10:24 AM) *
The first rule of dumpshock is you do not link to TVtropes.org.
The second rule of dumpshock is YOU DO NOT LINK TO TVTROPES.ORG.

Screw the rules, I have tropes! devil.gif
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Tanegar @ Jul 30 2011, 08:09 AM) *


Because Tropes are.... Good?
CanRay
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 30 2011, 10:12 AM) *
Because Tropes are.... Good?
They're tools, nothing more.
Stahlseele
No, they are Terribad. Badong even.
CanRay
Stahl, what did we say about using Newspeak here? nyahnyah.gif
Stahlseele
it's doubleplusnotgood?
CanRay
Just stick with proper English please, Stahl. The native speakers of that language get confused enough with it already. wink.gif
MJBurrage
Blandness means that you are so "average in height, weight, and appearance, and ... physical characteristics or mannerisms" that it is easy for people to forget you, to the extent that anyone trying to follow or search for you suffers a 2 penalty.

Distinctive Style means that you have "distinctive physical feature or unique mannerism" which makes you stand out, giving anyone tracking or searching for you a +3 bonus.

At first glance they are clearly opposites and would be incompatible. However I can think of two examples of them being combined.

Tom Cruise arguably has a Distinctive Style, and yet he learned Blandness while preparing for his role in Collateral. He worked as a Fed Ex deliveryman, and with practice, no one recognized him.

An even more famous fictional example was based just on whether the character was wearing glasses or a cape.

So I would allow it, but the character would have to focus on being bland during an encounter to get the benefit (strict GMs could impose a penalty to the player like sustaining a spell). Even then the net result would still be +1 die to anyone looking for the target.
ggodo
QUOTE (CanRay @ Jul 30 2011, 08:42 AM) *
Just stick with proper English please, Stahl. The native speakers of that language get confused enough with it already. wink.gif

Newspeak is the only roper language.

QUOTE (MJBurrage @ Jul 30 2011, 08:43 AM) *
Blandness means that you are so "average in height, weight, and appearance, and ... physical characteristics or mannerisms" that it is easy for people to forget you, to the extent that anyone trying to follow or search for you suffers a 2 penalty.

Distinctive Style means that you have "distinctive physical feature or unique mannerism" which makes you stand out, giving anyone tracking or searching for you a +3 bonus.

At first glance they are clearly opposites and would be incompatible. However I can think of two examples of them being combined.

Tom Cruise arguably has a Distinctive Style, and yet he learned Blandness while preparing for his role in Collateral. He worked as a Fed Ex deliveryman, and with practice, no one recognized him.

An even more famous fictional example was based just on whether the character was wearing glasses or a cape.

So I would allow it, but the character would have to focus on being bland during an encounter to get the benefit (strict GMs could impose a penalty to the player like sustaining a spell). Even then the net result would still be +1 die to anyone looking for the target.

I like this one. This is entirely a thought experiment, but I thought it would be interesting to see what The Internet thinks on it. Also, if they took 5 point distinctive style, then Blandness would give them a net -1.
Sengir
I'd imagine it as somebody who has a distinguishing feature, but a lot of other people have the same feature and he does not stand out among those.

Imagine a totally average Asian guy in a white crowd. Of course he will stand out, but people won't be able to give a better description than "well, he looked kinda...Asian...with black hair and...uhm...normal build"
Stahlseele
QUOTE (CanRay @ Jul 30 2011, 05:42 PM) *
Just stick with proper English please, Stahl. The native speakers of that language get confused enough with it already. wink.gif

English, or bad english? *grins*
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (ggodo @ Jul 30 2011, 10:05 AM) *
Newspeak is the only roper language.

I like this one. This is entirely a thought experiment, but I thought it would be interesting to see what The Internet thinks on it. Also, if they took 5 point distinctive style, then Blandness would give them a net -1.


Ummmmm, Minor Nitpick.... Distinctive Style provides a +3, regardless of the Level, from 5 to 35 Points. Really, it is in the text. So it would always be a minimum of +1 (Blandness -2, Distinctive Style +3, nets a +1) using your logic there. smile.gif
MJBurrage
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 30 2011, 12:35 PM) *
Ummmmm, Minor Nitpick.... Distinctive Style provides a +3, regardless of the Level, from 5 to 35 Points. Really, it is in the text. So it would always be a minimum of +1 (Blandness -2, Distinctive Style +3, nets a +1) using your logic there. smile.gif
Based on the full wording of Distinctive Style, I am pretty sure that every 5 points from it is a single distinctive feature worth the +3 to others search tests, but their cumulative effect is capped at +6 dice.
  • 5 pts., 1 distinctive feature, +3 dice
  • 10 pts., 2 distinctive features, +6 dice
  • 15 pts., 3 distinctive features, +6 dice
  • 20 pts., 4 distinctive features, +6 dice
  • 25 pts., 5 distinctive features, +6 dice
  • 30 pts., 6 distinctive features, +6 dice
  • 35 pts., 7 distinctive features, +6 dice
So if a character had 10+ pts of Distinctive Style and Blandness, it would be +6 2 = +4
Rubic
QUOTE (Stahlseele @ Jul 30 2011, 11:31 AM) *
it's doubleplusnotgood?

doubleplusUNgood
Cain
QUOTE (MJBurrage @ Jul 30 2011, 08:43 AM) *
Blandness means that you are so "average in height, weight, and appearance, and ... physical characteristics or mannerisms" that it is easy for people to forget you, to the extent that anyone trying to follow or search for you suffers a 2 penalty.

Distinctive Style means that you have "distinctive physical feature or unique mannerism" which makes you stand out, giving anyone tracking or searching for you a +3 bonus.

At first glance they are clearly opposites and would be incompatible. However I can think of two examples of them being combined.

Tom Cruise arguably has a Distinctive Style, and yet he learned Blandness while preparing for his role in Collateral. He worked as a Fed Ex deliveryman, and with practice, no one recognized him.

An even more famous fictional example was based just on whether the character was wearing glasses or a cape.

So I would allow it, but the character would have to focus on being bland during an encounter to get the benefit (strict GMs could impose a penalty to the player like sustaining a spell). Even then the net result would still be +1 die to anyone looking for the target.

I still wouldn't allow it. Distinctive Style only really applies when you're looking for info on the character, so you're easier to track and find. Blandness means you're harder to find. Not compatible. At best, it's a waste of points. At worst, it's an abuse of edges and flaws.

In the case of Tom Cruise, he has Global Fame, which isn't the same as Distinctive Style. Some of the same stuff should apply, though.

I allow trolls to take blandness, in the same way I allow minorities to take blandness: "What's he look like? He was ten feet tall and had horns! How should I know, all trolls look the same to me!"
CanRay
"He looked like he wanted to eat my baby! Trolls do that, you know!" "Ma'am, my partner is a Troll, he's never eaten any babies. He did, however, save an entire classroom of first graders by putting himself between them and the bullets." "Well, he's a cop, that's different."
Blitz66
I would only allow Blandness and Distinctive Style on the same character in the case of meatbody vs Matrix persona. I doubt Tom Cruise could have pulled off the FedEx gig if Tom Cruise was known for his distinctive facial tattoo, after all. If a Shadowrun character attempted to use a disguise and behavior to prevent himself from being recognized despite Global Fame, I'd call that a Con test, requiring... maybe two threshold successes? Distinctive Style doesn't really work the same way.

Bottom line, Distinctive Style draws the eye while Blandness lets it slide on by, and it would take a really amazing idea for a player to convince me to let them have both together.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (MJBurrage @ Jul 30 2011, 11:41 AM) *
Based on the full wording of Distinctive Style, I am pretty sure that every 5 points from it is a single distinctive feature worth the +3 to others search tests, but their cumulative effect is capped at +6 dice.
  • 5 pts., 1 distinctive feature, +3 dice
  • 10 pts., 2 distinctive features, +6 dice
  • 15 pts., 3 distinctive features, +6 dice
  • 20 pts., 4 distinctive features, +6 dice
  • 25 pts., 5 distinctive features, +6 dice
  • 30 pts., 6 distinctive features, +6 dice
  • 35 pts., 7 distinctive features, +6 dice
So if a character had 10+ pts of Distinctive Style and Blandness, it would be +6 2 = +4


You should read it a little more closely then.

You may take MULTIPLE DISTINCTIVE STYLE Negative Qualities...
The Bonus to find you is capped at +6, whether you have 2 or 10 Distinctive Style Qualities.

So, for your FIRST Distinctive Style (Regardless of whether t is at 5 or 30 BP) you get a +3 to being found.
For your 2nd Distinctive Style, that bonus goes up to +6.
Additional Distinctive Style's no longer add any further bonus, but you can add them if you like.

So for only 1 DS NQ, in addition to Blandness, those searching for you get a net +1 to the Roll. If they add another DS NQ, that bonus goes up to +4. It will never rise further than that if you have Blandness.

Anyways... smile.gif
Aku
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 30 2011, 11:09 PM) *
You should read it a little more closely then.

You may take MULTIPLE DISTINCTIVE STYLE Negative Qualities...
The Bonus to find you is capped at +6, whether you have 2 or 10 Distinctive Style Qualities.

So, for your FIRST Distinctive Style (Regardless of whether t is at 5 or 30 BP) you get a +3 to being found.
For your 2nd Distinctive Style, that bonus goes up to +6.
Additional Distinctive Style's no longer add any further bonus, but you can add them if you like.

So for only 1 DS NQ, in addition to Blandness, those searching for you get a net +1 to the Roll. If they add another DS NQ, that bonus goes up to +4. It will never rise further than that if you have Blandness.

Anyways... smile.gif



You two are saying the same thing...
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Aku @ Jul 30 2011, 09:11 PM) *
You two are saying the same thing...


Actually, we are not... I can have a Distinctive Style at 25 points, and still only have a +3 to be tracked. smile.gif
Multiple Distinctive Style Qualities is not the Same thing as a Highly rated Distinctive Style Quality.
ggodo
See, and I didn't think Distinctive style functioned as a +3 no matter what. How does one determine whether a style is worth 5 or 35 points?
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (ggodo @ Jul 30 2011, 11:23 PM) *
See, and I didn't think Distinctive style functioned as a +3 no matter what. How does one determine whether a style is worth 5 or 35 points?


I would assume that it is highly table dependant. If you are playing a Pink Mohawk Game, you will have less points in the Quality, as Over the top, crazy, distinctive things are the norm. If you are playing Ice Cold Pro, well, Distinctive style will get you killed even at a low rating, becuase you will likely stand out like a sore thumb... At least, that is the way that I see it. Your Mileage May Vary, of Course.
Aku
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 30 2011, 10:28 PM) *
Actually, we are not... I can have a Distinctive Style at 25 points, and still only have a +3 to be tracked. smile.gif
Multiple Distinctive Style Qualities is not the Same thing as a Highly rated Distinctive Style Quality.



QUOTE (RC p.103)
Whatever type of flair the character selects, it must enable
other individuals to easily remember him. Any individual who
attempts to identify, trace or physically locate the character (or
gain information about him via Legwork) receives a +3 dice
pool modifier on all tests made during such attempts (including
Perception Tests). The modifier does not apply to astral or Matrix
searches. This quality may be taken multiple times by characters
that possess multiple distinctive features, with cumulative modifiers.
However, the maximum cumulative modifier is +6 dice.


There is no such thing as a "highly rated" DSQ. Each singular one is 5 points, you can take multiple, however the dice cap at +6.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Aku @ Jul 31 2011, 10:17 AM) *
There is no such thing as a "highly rated" DSQ. Each singular one is 5 points, you can take multiple, however the dice cap at +6.


You should probably re-read it again.
The Quality Cost anywhere from 5-35 points for a SINGLE instance of the Quality (Dependant upon HOW distinctive the Quality is). You may have multiple Instances thereof.
Aku
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jul 31 2011, 12:27 PM) *
You should probably re-read it again.
The Quality Cost anywhere from 5-35 points for a SINGLE instance of the Quality (Dependant upon HOW distinctive the Quality is). You may have multiple Instances thereof.



I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree then. No where does it say that an individual characteristic is worth more than another. The way the quality reads is that every abnormality is 5 points. Snakes for hair? 5 points. Glitterdust as skin? 5 points. These two combined? +6 dice. add snake slit eyes that glow purple? 5 points, no more dice. You dont get 10 points for this, 15 for that, and 5 for something else.
Tanegar
QUOTE (Aku @ Jul 31 2011, 03:17 PM) *
I guess we're going to have to agree to disagree then. No where does it say that an individual characteristic is worth more than another. The way the quality reads is that every abnormality is 5 points. Snakes for hair? 5 points. Glitterdust as skin? 5 points. These two combined? +6 dice. add snake slit eyes that glow purple? 5 points, no more dice. You dont get 10 points for this, 15 for that, and 5 for something else.

Distinctive Style is explicitly a variable-cost quality, 5 to 35BP per instance. Like so many things in Shadowrun, it could be (much) better written, but there it is.
Aku
I take the variableness to be the number of distinctive qualities there, not the "depth" or "extent" of a singular quality.
Tanegar
The cost given for every other quality in every single book is per-instance. Are you arguing that in this one, sole, singular case the writers went temporarily insane and included "to 35" because they thought we needed a reminder that 35BP is the maximum possible bonus from negative qualities? That is patently absurd.
Aku
QUOTE (Tanegar @ Jul 31 2011, 03:44 PM) *
The cost given for every other quality in every single book is per-instance. Are you arguing that in this one, sole, singular case the writers went temporarily insane and included "to 35" because they thought we needed a reminder that 35BP is the maximum possible bonus from negative qualities? That is patently absurd.



No, I'm arguing that the writers decided that if a player wanted, they could take up to the 35 points of this quality. As opposed to day job, which says:

QUOTE
Day Job
Bonus: 5 to 15 BP


So, according to the writers, you cant have a 20 pt version of day job.
longbowrocks
QUOTE (ggodo @ Jul 29 2011, 11:21 PM) *
Must not make hacker named ZOD, will feel need to understand Unwired. . .

Wouldn't that be a level 90+ hacker with rune words on all his equipment?
/gross intermingling of two different games.
Tanegar
That's what I'm saying. The maximum bonus for a Day Job is 15 per instance. As in, you could take two 15-point Day Jobs. Not sure why you'd want to, as you'd basically be playing a wage slave at that point, but it's allowable. Distinctive Style (as with all variable-cost qualities) works the same way. You can take a 5-point version, a 10-point version, a 15-point version, etc. up to a 35-point Distinctive Style (at which point, I assume, you basically have your real name and SIN tattooed all over your body in flourescent ink and walk around buck naked, or similar). That's what a variable cost means: one quality, costing between X and Y. Not multiple qualities, all costing X, up to a limit of Y.
longbowrocks
QUOTE (Tanegar @ Jul 31 2011, 12:44 PM) *
The cost given for every other quality in every single book is per-instance. Are you arguing that in this one, sole, singular case the writers went temporarily insane and included "to 35" because they thought we needed a reminder that 35BP is the maximum possible bonus from negative qualities? That is patently absurd.

I can't tell either way from the text, but I agree with you.
I don't think that "must rollerblade to any destination within ten miles" should count for as much as "wears the skin of his victims as clothing with eyeballs as decoration". One will get more attention, and should be worth more points as a single quality.
crash2029
QUOTE (longbowrocks @ Jul 31 2011, 02:34 PM) *
I can't tell either way from the text, but I agree with you.
I don't think that "must rollerblade to any destination within ten miles" should count for as much as "wears the skin of his victims as clothing with eyeballs as decoration". One will get more attention, and should be worth more points as a single quality.

I'd have to agree. Rollerblading everywhere is just weird. wink.gif
Minimax le Rouge
QUOTE (longbowrocks @ Jul 31 2011, 11:34 PM) *
"wears the skin of his victims as clothing with eyeballs as decoration"

that's not Distinctive style. It's Dementia, Cyberpsychosis, and Wanted. Cumulated.
Sengir
And that "stinky" quality from RC.
CanRay
QUOTE (longbowrocks @ Jul 31 2011, 04:34 PM) *
"wears the skin of his victims as clothing with eyeballs as decoration".
QUOTE (Minimax le Rouge @ Aug 2 2011, 03:31 AM) *
that's not Distinctive style. It's Dementia, Cyberpsychosis, and Wanted. Cumulated.
Or Richard, from "Looking For Group".
longbowrocks
QUOTE (CanRay @ Aug 2 2011, 07:03 AM) *
Or Richard, from "Looking For Group".

Ah. Bingo.
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