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Tashiro
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin @ Nov 24 2011, 01:41 PM) *
Since the game is based on statistics, it is inevitable that not all runs will be in and out. Therefore, in order to preserve a sense of verisimilitude, it's important that at least some runs *are* in and out, if the players are lucky. But it will be highly unlikely that they'll all be in and out.


Exactly. smile.gif
Paul
I'm sorry so many of you fell telling story has to equate to railroading. For my own part an RPG is like writing a book, except as the GM I don't actually write the roles played by the characters-and the destination isn't set in stone. I can guess at a few things because I'm smart, and flexible as a GM. But there is no final outcome. I never know whether my PC's will survive or not, complete the goals I set out for them or not, or even decide to pursue the goals I set up.

It's happened a few times where I offer choices A, B and C and they say "Hey we want choice X!" So choice X it is-because with out my players there's no game.
Jhaiisiin
Exactly what Paul said.

Unfortunately, far too many "story focused" GM's do railroad to maintain "their" story, when it should be the entire group's story. It takes someone who is flexible, creative and able to think on the fly to keep a story going that keeps the players interested without it railroading.
kzt
QUOTE (Tashiro @ Nov 24 2011, 11:00 AM) *
Heh. It should be possible. I had once considered doing a true 'sniper' character -- find a good place, dig in, and wait for the shot. I still might do that some time. I think the sniper's creed works well in SR, especially if the enemy doesn't get their defence.

Sauce for the goose ...
CanRay
QUOTE (Tashiro @ Nov 24 2011, 02:00 PM) *
I think the sniper's creed works well in SR, especially if the enemy doesn't get their defence.
"Don't run, you'll only die tired"?
KarmaInferno
I for one have found that sniper characters, while seemingly interesting, make for EXTREMELY dull characters in actual gameplay.





-k
Tashiro
QUOTE (kzt @ Nov 24 2011, 10:11 PM) *
Sauce for the goose ...


I hear that a lot. My usual answer is 'how many snipers are taken down by snipers?' Not really many. That's like saying every assassin is going to be killed by an assassin, or every poisoner is going to be killed by a poisoner. I have used snipers in my game as a GM, did quite a number on one of the PCs (requiring him to blow a permanent Edge), but that's because the group was bone-headed, and let a target know he was a target - he had enough time to call backup, and they all took position to prepare to take down any threats.

Besides, if you're a smart sniper in SR, you're going to get some protection. Good armour, some anchors to protect you from notice (and if you're smart, enemy fire), and generally protect yourself.

Tashiro
QUOTE (KarmaInferno @ Nov 24 2011, 10:20 PM) *
I for one have found that sniper characters, while seemingly interesting, make for EXTREMELY dull characters in actual gameplay.


-k


The idea is to make them interesting in other ways. One of my primary characters is a driver. That's all he does. He drives the rest of the PCs to the location, finds a good position to wait for them, and drives them to the safe house. He's insanely good at his job, and he can also do extractions, but that costs the PCs extra. On a run, he's limited, but he's good for the start and end of the mission, and for roleplaying in between. You can do the same thing with a sniper -- he does prep work, he gets in position, and he waits for when he's needed. In between, you have to make him interesting and engaging for the rest of the players.
CanRay
QUOTE (KarmaInferno @ Nov 24 2011, 11:20 PM) *
I for one have found that sniper characters, while seemingly interesting, make for EXTREMELY dull characters in actual gameplay.

-k
"Journal Entry Day 14: Should have brought more to read than a Catcher In The Rye bookchip. Almost out of MREs, still constipated from them at least. Have to get street doc to check that when job is done. On last bottle to fill before I have to find alternate toilet. Insta-Kaff still tastes like battery acid mixed with Bleach. Long Haul drugs starting to wear off. Target still not in sigh..." *blam* "Target sighted and terminated with suppressed subsonic round at 0655 hours upon finally leaving his mistress' house. Long. Fraggin'. Makeout session! Moving to position two."
KarmaInferno
QUOTE (Tashiro @ Nov 24 2011, 10:23 PM) *
The idea is to make them interesting in other ways. One of my primary characters is a driver. That's all he does. He drives the rest of the PCs to the location, finds a good position to wait for them, and drives them to the safe house. He's insanely good at his job, and he can also do extractions, but that costs the PCs extra. On a run, he's limited, but he's good for the start and end of the mission, and for roleplaying in between. You can do the same thing with a sniper -- he does prep work, he gets in position, and he waits for when he's needed. In between, you have to make him interesting and engaging for the rest of the players.


Or, I could make a well-rounded character has the skills to participate in multiple roles, still gets to roleplay, and can snipe if needed with only a few dice less than a dedicated sniper.

In fact my current Missions character, right out of chargen, had shooting pools in the 16-20 range, driving pools in the 14-16 range, and to top it off social pools in the 18-24 range. And is designed as a gregarious social butterfly with awesome dancing skills.

Which was the point of my first post here. There's no good reason to MAKE a hyperspecialized one-trick pony character when the rules let you be good at multiple things.




-k
kzt
QUOTE (Tashiro @ Nov 24 2011, 08:21 PM) *
I hear that a lot. My usual answer is 'how many snipers are taken down by snipers?'

The point is that a PC is FAR more vulnerable to getting shot in the head from 300 meters away than a given NPC. Would you be happy if your character was killed by an effectively undetectable bomb placed under his car seat or was shot by a sniper as he tried to unlock his front door?

Sauce for the goose. ...
Tashiro
QUOTE (kzt @ Nov 24 2011, 10:40 PM) *
The point is that a PC is FAR more vulnerable to getting shot in the head from 300 meters away than a given NPC. Would you be happy if your character was killed by an effectively undetectable bomb placed under his car seat or was shot by a sniper as he tried to unlock his front door?

Sauce for the goose. ...


It'd be certainly interesting. Blowing an Edge to survive it, then trying to find out what happened would make for an engaging story. Obviously, my character must have made an enemy. smile.gif
Jhaiisiin
See? You're the kind of player I love. You take some situation and turn it into a driving goal or character hook and run with it. Too many people seem to think sniping a PC is the same as being a dick and using gm fiat and and and and...
CanRay
QUOTE (Tashiro @ Nov 25 2011, 12:14 AM) *
It'd be certainly interesting. Blowing an Edge to survive it, then trying to find out what happened would make for an engaging story. Obviously, my character must have made an enemy. smile.gif
"Doctor, the patient is waking up."

"Oh thank Ghost. Hello, I know you can't talk right now, please don't try. You've suffered some severe brain trauma. However, as you were a organ donor and and left your body for science according to your Doc Wagon contract, we attempted a new for of cybernetic procedure to attempt to rebuild your neural pathways using a new cybernetic system. There were some... Complications, however."

"DUDE! It's kind of crowded in here! But I was able to fit in all my songs! And..."

"Meet the AI we can't get out of your head. It goes by the name of 'Metalhead Mike' and..."

"IT? IT! I'm a Dude, Doctor Dude! Now for some classic Sabbath!"
CanRay
QUOTE (Jhaiisiin @ Nov 25 2011, 12:19 AM) *
See? You're the kind of player I love. You take some situation and turn it into a driving goal or character hook and run with it. Too many people seem to think sniping a PC is the same as being a dick and using gm fiat and and and and...
I'm the same type of player, yet I gets no lovin'. Or games. frown.gif
Jhaiisiin
It's cuz yer a cannuk. wink.gif
Tashiro
QUOTE (CanRay @ Nov 24 2011, 11:21 PM) *
"Doctor, the patient is waking up."

"Oh thank Ghost. Hello, I know you can't talk right now, please don't try. You've suffered some severe brain trauma. However, as you were a organ donor and and left your body for science according to your Doc Wagon contract, we attempted a new for of cybernetic procedure to attempt to rebuild your neural pathways using a new cybernetic system. There were some... Complications, however."

"DUDE! It's kind of crowded in here! But I was able to fit in all my songs! And..."

"Meet the AI we can't get out of your head. It goes by the name of 'Metalhead Mike' and..."

"IT? IT! I'm a Dude, Doctor Dude! Now for some classic Sabbath!"


*snrk* Awesome. biggrin.gif
CanRay
QUOTE (Jhaiisiin @ Nov 25 2011, 12:25 AM) *
It's cuz yer a cannuk. wink.gif
And yet there was such a high demand at the gaming con so recently. frown.gif
QUOTE (Tashiro @ Nov 25 2011, 12:26 AM) *
*snrk* Awesome. biggrin.gif
Feel free to use it if it ever happens. biggrin.gif
Jhaiisiin
Were you down NM way, you'd have a game... guess you need to consider a move... wink.gif
Daylen
QUOTE (CanRay @ Nov 25 2011, 05:28 AM) *
And yet there was such a high demand at the gaming con so recently. :(Feel free to use it if it ever happens. biggrin.gif

They were all probably drunk on Seagrams nyahnyah.gif
CanRay
QUOTE (Daylen @ Nov 25 2011, 11:06 AM) *
They were all probably drunk on Seagrams nyahnyah.gif
Non-Licensed location, no alcohol allowed.
Irion
Sniping players is frowned on, because is one of those instances where game reality colides with rule reality.

In the rules to take a shot at someone in a group of people 400 yards away, is not much of a problem.
In reality, this bullet will travel for at least one second. Probably two.

While ingame it is close to impossible for a avarage sniper to miss that shot (Smartlink, Vision magnification, no defance), in Reality it is a hell of a shot.
In SR you may just take the shot while standing, in reality this would not work at all.

It is not GM Fiat per se, as there are countermessures to be taken. (Which work exactly the same way. Using things which are poorly thought out. Like detect life or detect enemies)
Tashiro
QUOTE (Irion @ Nov 25 2011, 12:25 PM) *
Sniping players is frowned on, because is one of those instances where game reality colides with rule reality.

In the rules to take a shot at someone in a group of people 400 yards away, is not much of a problem.
In reality, this bullet will travel for at least one second. Probably two.

While ingame it is close to impossible for a avarage sniper to miss that shot (Smartlink, Vision magnification, no defance), in Reality it is a hell of a shot.
In SR you may just take the shot while standing, in reality this would not work at all.

It is not GM Fiat per se, as there are countermessures to be taken. (Which work exactly the same way. Using things which are poorly thought out. Like detect life or detect enemies)


Actually, the War! book mentions shots at long distances, and travel time for shots. They specifically say to handwave in some cases (such as, for example, a sniper shot), since the longest hang-time you'll see is 3-4 seconds for those glorious 2 km shots. (Go Canada! Go UK!) I've never heard anything about snipers being 'frowned upon' because of rule collision. Mostly I just hear they're not fun - and I beg to differ in that I believe a character can always be fun if it is played well and with an eye towards working with the group. Probably the same reason I've never had problems with hackers / deckers in my games.

And yeah, considering the technology and magic available in Shadowrun, I could see snipers doing a hell of a lot better than they do in modern times. (Though the sniper in Ghost in the Shell was pretty awesome - he'd argue with the software about positioning and angle...)
Stalag
QUOTE (Paul @ Nov 18 2011, 11:58 PM) *
In example the guy who can only fire a pistol, do you every so often through him into a game where shooting people is just not an option? As a player what do you do? How do you feel about the afore mentioned scenario? is it a fun challenge? or is it just the GM being a dick?

I see a lot of people on this site worrying immensely about dice pools. But what happens when you don't get to roll those dice every single time?

Unless you demand multi-functional characters many players (especially the "non-character" ones) will drift toward the hyper-specialized.

If you're of the "one or more rolls will resolve any situation" school then your idea of "a challenge" will be something related to making the die rolls themselves difficult - so you either create a stacked challenge in the characters specialization with so many modifiers they might as well be defaulting or you force them into a situation where they have to do something they didn't specialize in (likely something they will default on). Personally I don't think many players find either of those "fun" or "challenging" since, ultimately, the result is random and turns the player is little more than a dice roller. Further if I, as a player, want to play a gun-bunny and the GM is constantly putting me in situations where I can't be a gun-bunny then I may have created the character I wanted to play but I'm being forced to play a gimpy version of a character that's anything but the character I wanted to play.

This also likely means your whole runs are a series of die rolls crafted for (or against) the characters in your group.

Personally I prefer to go the other way... I come up with some run ideas then see what characters are brought to the table and give them a run that suits the group (for example, I wouldn't give a mage heavy group a hacking mission). How they complete the run from there is up to them. The challenge is on the players to find a clever way to accomplish their goal using the tools (and specializations) at their disposal. This means I don't really give a flip how they have their dice stacked.... they can specialize all they want, it's just limiting their own options when it comes to completing the run.
Tashiro
My players have learned not to overly-specialize. I'm often willing to throw enough different things at them that they'll default for a session or two, then pick up the skill if they think it might come up again. This way, the players broaden their character's talents via experience, and then focus on a few specific areas within these skills to be their specialty. I've had game masters that focus on one thing to the exclusion of all other things (a game which was almost always combat, and he'd hand-wave my social character's activities - such as information gathering). Seeing which way the wind blew, I began dumping everything into combat stats, and only slowly raised my social stuff. It got to the point where anything he threw at the group got mowed down - especially by my 'social character'. The game imploded after that, because he couldn't direct the flow of the game.

(Fortunately, this wasn't Shadowrun)
Stalag
QUOTE (CanRay @ Nov 24 2011, 11:27 PM) *
"Journal Entry Day 14: Should have brought more to read than a Catcher In The Rye bookchip. Almost out of MREs, still constipated from them at least. Have to get street doc to check that when job is done. On last bottle to fill before I have to find alternate toilet. Insta-Kaff still tastes like battery acid mixed with Bleach. Long Haul drugs starting to wear off. Target still not in sigh..." *blam* "Target sighted and terminated with suppressed subsonic round at 0655 hours upon finally leaving his mistress' house. Long. Fraggin'. Makeout session! Moving to position two."

That's awesome love.gif
Irion
@Tashiro
The Point is no players likes to hear: Right, now you are dead or you have to burn edge.

Because shooting a target that far away, probably wearing a hell of personal protection should not be that easy.

But the rules say: Image magnification, no charge for distance. Unawear target, no reaction translating in a lot of net hits. Beeing able to cash in every other bonus in the book the sniper will deliver a hell of a shot. Given the right ammo easy up to 15 DV. If you are not a cybertroll, you will go down.

The real hard question, How did the guy spot you? How did he predict your movement? Etc. pp. are not asked.
Tymeaus Jalynsfein
QUOTE (Irion @ Nov 25 2011, 10:25 AM) *
Sniping players is frowned on, because is one of those instances where game reality colides with rule reality.

In the rules to take a shot at someone in a group of people 400 yards away, is not much of a problem.
In reality, this bullet will travel for at least one second. Probably two.

While ingame it is close to impossible for a avarage sniper to miss that shot (Smartlink, Vision magnification, no defance), in Reality it is a hell of a shot.
In SR you may just take the shot while standing, in reality this would not work at all.

It is not GM Fiat per se, as there are countermessures to be taken. (Which work exactly the same way. Using things which are poorly thought out. Like detect life or detect enemies)


Your flight times are a bit off there Irion.

And just for information sake. A 500 Meter shot is not all that difficult. While I was in the Corps, I routinely scored 50 Points (all 10 Shots in the 5 Ring of a Human Target; with the 5 Ring the highest) with open Iron Sights. It is not really all that difficult (Yes, I know, Static Targets). On Live Fire tactical Ranges, with variable engangement distances, it was still pretty trivial. Most Sniping circumstances that I encountered in the Corps happened from 500-1000 Meters, from the Prone position. With a GOOD Sniper Rifle, those ranges are not all that difficult. Anyone can be taught to perform at that level with 8-10 weeks of constant practice.

That being said, the 2km shots are very, very difficult indeed. And even those individuals at that level only hit reliably about 30% of the time, which is why you do not routinely take those types of shots. You wait for more optimal ranges if/when you have the opportunity to do so.

I also agree that those types of shots are trivially easy for a Sniper Character in Shadowrun. Here is the catch. You will rarely, if ever, be presented with a 2km shot in Shadowrun. You will likely be in the 300-800 Meter Range Increment, and at those ranges, you should hit consistently, even in a crowded environment.

Now, Maybe I am exceptional in that regard, but I do not think so. As I said, anyone can be taught to shoot well. All it takes is time, dedication and practice.
CanRay
QUOTE (Stalag @ Nov 25 2011, 01:54 PM) *
That's awesome love.gif
Apparently I'm made of Awesome. Or chocolate. Or am a Meat Popsicle. Still trying to fire that out.
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Nov 25 2011, 02:15 PM) *
That being said, the 2km shots are very, very difficult indeed. And even those individuals at that level only hit reliably about 30% of the time, which is why you do not routinely take those types of shots. You wait for more optimal ranges if/when you have the opportunity to do so.
I don't know about the current world record, but the Canadian one was done because they were the only people in position at all to take out a mortar team that was being a bit of a problem. They couldn't use the time to get to a more optimal position, and, yes, about 30-40% of their shots hit if I recall the story correctly.

They had enough ammo to give the mortar team a really bad day.
Nebular
My group usually specialises as we tend to favour roles so that everyone has their "it" thing and characters don't end up stepping on each other's toes. Sure, everyone can shoot a gun, but for that really long shot, the sniper gets to shine. Need to charm the pants off of someone? Mr. Face gets his time in the spotlight. I tend to write things for the group as a whole and occasionally sprinkle in moments that let a player show of their specialist talents and feel like the team's star. I tailor things to suit the group itself and highlight their talents rather than punishing them for not having someone with a certain skill set. I still throw in things that would be easier with certain skills that they don't have (the world isn't always a fair place!), but still manageable with what they have and some creative thinking. The GM should write thing for their group, not force the players to play what they believe a group should consist of.
Wounded Ronin
Ares guard: "I've got movement!"
Little girl with British accent: "Liberal arts majors. They mostly come out at night...mostly."
Daylen
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Nov 25 2011, 07:15 PM) *
That being said, the 2km shots are very, very difficult indeed. And even those individuals at that level only hit reliably about 30% of the time, which is why you do not routinely take those types of shots. You wait for more optimal ranges if/when you have the opportunity to do so.

But not nearly as difficult when on a cloudy windless day with a good big scope smile.gif
Paul
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin @ Nov 25 2011, 02:33 PM) *
Ares guard: "I've got movement!"
Little girl with British accent: "Liberal arts majors. They mostly come out at night...mostly."


rotfl.gif
Irion
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Nov 25 2011, 07:15 PM) *
Your flight times are a bit off there Irion.

And just for information sake. A 500 Meter shot is not all that difficult. While I was in the Corps, I routinely scored 50 Points (all 10 Shots in the 5 Ring of a Human Target; with the 5 Ring the highest) with open Iron Sights. It is not really all that difficult (Yes, I know, Static Targets). On Live Fire tactical Ranges, with variable engangement distances, it was still pretty trivial. Most Sniping circumstances that I encountered in the Corps happened from 500-1000 Meters, from the Prone position. With a GOOD Sniper Rifle, those ranges are not all that difficult. Anyone can be taught to perform at that level with 8-10 weeks of constant practice.

That being said, the 2km shots are very, very difficult indeed. And even those individuals at that level only hit reliably about 30% of the time, which is why you do not routinely take those types of shots. You wait for more optimal ranges if/when you have the opportunity to do so.

I also agree that those types of shots are trivially easy for a Sniper Character in Shadowrun. Here is the catch. You will rarely, if ever, be presented with a 2km shot in Shadowrun. You will likely be in the 300-800 Meter Range Increment, and at those ranges, you should hit consistently, even in a crowded environment.

Now, Maybe I am exceptional in that regard, but I do not think so. As I said, anyone can be taught to shoot well. All it takes is time, dedication and practice.

Well, yes somhow I just wanted to use a subsonic ammo... (My head was stuck on sniping Players in the city. Because well, if you agree to meet your Johonson in the desert at night, well. There were hints, something is wrong.)
But true, you do not have to.

You can throw together around 16 dice I suspect, and of those you will probably keep most, making it a very easy task. (As a matter of fact much easier than walking up to the guy and shooting him from 10 m away )
With around 12+ dice and a called shot for damag you get around 4 hits, which can make a shot quite deadly. (Yes, unless you abuse the system the other way around, stacking armor like the sun won't rise the next day)
Throw in some special ammo and you take down the runner with body 4 and 8 points of ballistic armor. (Well, if he has an high edge, he might live to fight another day, spending it on the resistance test)

It is not so much that the guy is hit, but that the guy is instand dead. Considering how hard (even with all this talk about glass cannons) it is to kill someone in SR.

I would be ok with hitting the guy 95% of the time and killing him 50-60% of those times. It is just the 99% and the 90% wich annoy me.

(Of course all this is nothing compared to the mage who does his sniping with a powerbolt...)

MortVent
My old mage sniper used hellblasts... harder to figure out who the target was
kzt
Yeah, 500 yards with even a reasonably decent long rifle is not hard. If you get all the ballistics right. I've spent a while in a class swinging the door on a sniper head target at about 550 meters with pretty much every shot using a stock Remington 700P and a decent scope. Once I got on target it was easy. Getting a first round cold bore hit is not so easy. People who can reliably get cold bore head hits out at 800 meters are not so common. Getting head hits at 1000 meters with that rifle (cold bore or not) would be pretty much luck, at least with me shooting it.

If a scope does all the ballistics for you and puts the aimpoint where it needs to be would help a lot, if you actually accurately have all the data it needs, like muzzle velocity and ballistics for the ammo you are using. And if the target doesn't notice someone pinging him with a laser rangefinder. A rangefinder can be detected and directionality determined to some degree, it's done by some AFVs IIRC.

Subsonics are a lot harder at long range and typically effective range is a fraction of the supersonic round for a given caliber.
CanRay
QUOTE (Irion @ Nov 25 2011, 03:53 PM) *
Because well, if you agree to meet your Johonson in the desert at night, well. There were hints, something is wrong.
Especially if you work out of Vegas. nyahnyah.gif
Inu
Flight time isn't the only problem with long-distance shooting: it's the inherent accuracy of the bullet. Most well-made guns are very accurate, but past 500 metres, anything that isn't well-made won't be able to reliably hit anything smaller than a metre, no matter how good the shooter is. At 2km, most bullets are already tumbling, making accuracy a matter of luck as much as skill (hence the 30% hit chance for even a genuine sniper -- and that's only with the right sort of long-distance ammo).

In my game, I'm toying with the idea of shots at long range adding to the opponent's defence dice, with no way to counter that except possibly higher-quality ammunition. Also pondering introducing small-calibre sniper railguns for obscenely fast and long-ranged fin-stabilised nail rounds.
CanRay
Match Grade Barrel Modification with Match Grade Ammo as a more expensive Regular Ammo?
KarmaInferno
QUOTE (Inu @ Nov 25 2011, 05:31 PM) *
At 2km, most bullets are already tumbling, making accuracy a matter of luck as much as skill (hence the 30% hit chance for even a genuine sniper -- and that's only with the right sort of long-distance ammo.)

This is why Hathcock used an accurized 50 cal machine gun with a scope to make those record breaking sniper shots back in the day. Lighter rounds simply did not have enough mass to maintain stable flight at those ranges in that era, and there was no such thing as a dedicated 50 cal sniper rifle.

Even then, the equipment just made the shot possible. That he managed to get those shots to connect is a testament to his skill.



-k
CanRay
What's next, wire-guided 20mm sniper rounds?
Daylen
QUOTE (CanRay @ Nov 25 2011, 11:20 PM) *
What's next, wire-guided 20mm sniper rounds?

wires are not good. GPS is the way for really long distance http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M982_Excalibur though right now its just for shells not bullets.
kzt
QUOTE (Inu @ Nov 25 2011, 03:31 PM) *
At 2km, most bullets are already tumbling, making accuracy a matter of luck as much as skill (hence the 30% hit chance for even a genuine sniper -- and that's only with the right sort of long-distance ammo).

Any gun you can rationally expect to hit someone with at 2km the bullet is fully stable and most are still supersonic at 2km. Bullets don't lose much spin over distance so virtually all rifle rounds are fully stable thought at least the vast majority of their trajectory. They may not be pointing exactly in the direction of travel, but they are stable.
Daylen
QUOTE (kzt @ Nov 26 2011, 01:34 AM) *
Any gun you can rationally expect to hit someone with at 2km the bullet is fully stable and most are still supersonic at 2km. Bullets don't lose much spin over distance so virtually all rifle rounds are fully stable thought at least the vast majority of their trajectory. They may not be pointing exactly in the direction of travel, but they are stable.

good point, rifle bullets only really start tumbling (if ever) once they hit a solid or liquid. Of course inaccuracy of bullets is not because they of funny behavior down range, but what is happening in the barrel and chamber; though a poorly shaped bullet will fall in speed faster than a good bullet.
KarmaInferno
QUOTE (CanRay @ Nov 25 2011, 06:20 PM) *
What's next, wire-guided 20mm sniper rounds?

Funny you should mention that...

Also, a version of the ol Barrett was at one point developed with a 25mm payload.



-k
CanRay
QUOTE (KarmaInferno @ Nov 26 2011, 01:45 AM) *
Funny you should mention that...

Also, a version of the ol Barrett was at one point developed with a 25mm payload.

-k
I scare myself at times.
Wounded Ronin
QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Nov 25 2011, 01:15 PM) *
Your flight times are a bit off there Irion.

And just for information sake. A 500 Meter shot is not all that difficult. While I was in the Corps, I routinely scored 50 Points (all 10 Shots in the 5 Ring of a Human Target; with the 5 Ring the highest) with open Iron Sights. It is not really all that difficult (Yes, I know, Static Targets). On Live Fire tactical Ranges, with variable engangement distances, it was still pretty trivial. Most Sniping circumstances that I encountered in the Corps happened from 500-1000 Meters, from the Prone position. With a GOOD Sniper Rifle, those ranges are not all that difficult. Anyone can be taught to perform at that level with 8-10 weeks of constant practice.


This!

I remember I thought that long range shooting would be very difficult. Then I took a lesson with a private instructor and was able to hit a plate at 600 yards using my AR 15 using iron sights and shooting prone. So, I was like, gee, it's not as hard as I thought it would be.
kzt
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin @ Nov 26 2011, 10:32 AM) *
I remember I thought that long range shooting would be very difficult. Then I took a lesson with a private instructor and was able to hit a plate at 600 yards using my AR 15 using iron sights and shooting prone. So, I was like, gee, it's not as hard as I thought it would be.

It is a bit tricky with an A1 style sights. At 300 meters the trick was to put the the top of the front sight blade on the top of the head of the target. I have no idea how you would do 600 meters with those sights.

The real skill with long range shooting is reading the wind. The rest is just math. If you can figure out exactly where the dot needs to be to hit the target you will hit the target. Though as you go out farther, you reach a point where the ballistic dispersion means you MIGHT hit the target if you do everything exactly right.
last_of_the_great_mikeys
Seiously, no more! This thread is NOT about guns, sniping or freaking bullets!
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